Friendly religious debate

[Frangible]

A long time ago, my parents took me to church regularily... went to the summer camp, sunday school, whole nine years.

I think once, I actually had complete faith in a God existing.

Now though... I don't. As I got older and developed more an appreciation for science, I've come to realize there is no evidence of a higher power of any type existing, let alone a certain diety in particular. (yes, I've read up on the dead sea scrolls / shroud of turin)

I don't discount the possibility that a God exists, or that humans are something other than rotting meatbags :). In fact, I'd very much like for that to be true. Ceasing to exist when you die would well, really suck.

But that alone is not a reason for faith. Just because we'd like something to be true, does not necessarily make it so.

Is there a higher power? I don't know. Call me agnostic.

So, if you disagree, why do you think that either a) your diety exists or b) there can be no higher power of any type?

[pagerbear]

1. Because I said so, dammit!

[youngred]

2. I think there is

But I couldn't tell you why, how or prove it to you. I don't really think anyone can. Belief in a deity is something which, I believe, every person has to figure out for themselves. My view of God is that of an omnipresent entity that watches and creates. My God doesnt destroy or kill or hate or spite. Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus; none of them have nailed it because they seek a unified answer.

Pennywise - My God

People on the street they want to find a god they'll never know
Organized religion pulls the blinds then they pull the wool
They open up your head they're fucking with your mind
Now you can't see because you're blind

You try to make amends but your heads still spinning round
The church of Jesus Christ says it's time don't fuck around
You want to go to heaven you see it isn't free
Give your money up to me

My god is not the one that you wanna to see
Your god is a mirage, a conspiracy
You pray for forgiveness cos your sinning
Scared to death so your money you'll be giving

Holier than thou with your one way morality
I think your shallow faith isn't based in reality
You don't like how were living,
We're sinful and obscene
Why are you judging me?

You're richer than god, but you're crying out for more
You're living like a king, while you steal from the poor
You wanna be forgiven, get on your knees and pray
Send in your cash and be saved

My god is not the one that you wanna to see
Your god is a mirage, a conspiracy
You pray for forgiveness cos your sinning
Scared to death so your money you'll be giving, yeah!

Better hope you've been chosen to be saved
Cos your empathy only goes so far today
Pay no mind to those in pain
They just want the souls that are willing to pay... their way
Your god's not for me

My god is not the one that you wanna to see
Your god is a mirage, a conspiracy
You pray for forgiveness cos your sinning
Scared to death so your money you'll be giving, yeah!

My god is not the one that you wanna to see
Your god is a mirage, a conspiracy
You pray for forgiveness cos your sinning
Scared to death so your money you'll be giving, yeah!

Stop!

[Lost in GA]

30. I agree with you, but...

I wonder if the worlds great religions, when they were taught by the prophets/god/diety who started them, are the same as what we are taught now. What if no religion was meant to 'nail it', but to merely show a way? None of that believe in XYZ or burn in hell crap.
Then it could be possible that all these ways, which in the purest form may be messages as simple as 'do no harm' or 'love all beings equally', lead to the same higher being, or maybe just to a higher power.
My impression of some religions is that they teach that there is really no higher being, just a state of true knowledge, and perhaps a state of peaceful nothingness.
Of course, it could be, that e=mc2 and we are all but manifestations/embodiments of that single, unifying energy. Truly scientific? or Religion, I don't know.

[youngred]

57. you raise a great point

The message of Jesus, Muhammed, Buddha, etc have all been changed from messages and guides to unified, codified institutions run by people who recognize the power inherent in religious institutions.

Christianity (with which I am most familiar)is not about Christ so much as it is about Paul, because he shaped and distorted Jesus' message.

Then it could be possible that all these ways, which in the purest form may be messages as simple as 'do no harm' or 'love all beings equally', lead to the same higher being, or maybe just to a higher power.

You said it perfectly, I think

[Care Bear]

68. Yes.

Jesus was a Jew from birth until death. Also from the Jewish tradition, you could have mentioned Moses or David ...

[blondeatlast]

42. I'm so proud of you youngster Kucinich types!

So wise beyond your years...

Well said, my young and very wise friend.

[youngred]

58. Thank you very much

:-)

[Darranar]

45. I agree with you, though from a different perspective...

I'm an agnostic.

[Care Bear]

69. Me, too.

I can tolerate the ambiguity that I just don't know.

Believing in a higher power or a God seems to me to be a good place to be, but I just don't know.

However, I am definitely a Jew in all ways but Judaism; culturally, values, identifying with the history; here, have a nice piece of kuchel: it couldn't hurt.

[PVnRT]

3. Thin Mint cookies

are proof that God exists and loves us.

Same thing with power tools.

[TXlib]

5. No, it's beer.

"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." -- Benjamin Franklin

This from an atheist (who also brews beer)

[PVnRT]

7. Which beer?

Anything made by Coors makes me doubt the existence of God.

[TXlib]

9. Anything made by Coors is not beer.

Try a good Belgian tripel... Maredsous 10, or Duvel, or Chimay.

[PVnRT]

12. I like my beer German

Warsteiner all the way!

Guiness is good too, if I need a quick meal.

[TXlib]

19. Try a bavarian hefeweizen

[Liberal Christian]

25. Any beer

Coors is not beer, so you don't have to worry.

I don't know what Coors is, but it ain't beer. Of that I'm certain.

[youngred]

59. alcoholic donkey piss I think

and light on the alcohol content

[blondeatlast]

43. Love it... nt

[Marymarg]

4. Yes, definitely a higher power

And the reason I believe it is because I am unable not to believe it.

I do not believe that I am my body. I hope this doesn't sound as crazy as I think it may but I think of my body as the place where I am confined. And, while there are certainly delights in such a home, it does have problems and will eventually discard me or I will discard it. To believe that I am my body, I would feel nothing more than a very sophisticated robot.

Also, I am convinced that a higher power exists when I look at nature and observe how incredible it is that it works together in such harmony. I don't see how or why I would have such feelings as joy and love if there were no higher power from whom it originates.

[Lost in GA]

32. Wow

very nice. And logical, too. If its not permanent, it can't be real...and nothing we know of is permanent, yet all religions agree that this higher power (or whatever they chose to call it) is permanent, and very real. I once read..

If God is real, then I must go to God, because nothing else matters. If God is not real, then nothing matters.

Or something like that. I think I messed it up.

[dawn]

6. Well..

I'm Buddhist, but believe that every other "way" explains the same thing, in a different way. I don't believe in a God, but believe that what the Christians call God I call "Buddha nature."

I think it is a very hard path to walk, because we believe that the Buddha nature is in everyone. (Even George Bush!) So, if you hate someone, you hate yourself. I find it very difficult in times like these to maintain a calm mind.


-------------------------------
PS
I have a great respect for Christianity, too, but the religious right turned me off to it with alot of their anti-woman, anti-everyone-but-them hate-speak. I wish the left would take back Christianity from the Robertson crowd!
---------------------------------------

[youngred]

10. The Christian Right is neither

but the problem is that the Christian Left tends to be less doctrainaire than the Christian right. With religion many are looking for absolute answers...answers which I think people are only capapble of abswering themselves. Is one person who preaches absolutism any better than another?

[Lost in GA]

37. is it a coincidence

that people who have blind faith in a religion, have blind faith in a leader, and have the absolute conviction that they are 100% right? I think not. I doubt, therefore I am.
The religious right (of ANY religion, I use Christianity just because its culturally pertinent) asks WWJD, I wonder, what did Jesus really say, and how much of what he said has gotten corrupted over time...are the rich men in their fancy suits driving up in fancy cars to a huge church what Jesus had in mind as his true followers? Why does any faith need to tell others that 'you are dead wrong and going to hell'. I just don't buy that, because I have known too many angelic people from every religion...don't tell me they are all going to burn in hell but one of them.

[blondeatlast]

52. Beautifully said, and I know many who profess no beliefs

whatsoever who are very giving and kind to others as well.

It isn't the "tool," it's how you choose to use it.

[blondeatlast]

44. My Christian belief is rooted in the Buddha nature--

I think somehow in the grandest scheme we all have the divinity within us, but I don't discount that "it" is without us as well.

The most contented people I know are Buddhists; one has to admire that.

In the end, I think we all seek the same entity even if we call "it" by different names.

[Lost in GA]

54. Nailed it

But thats just my opinion, of course. It is amazing to read these posts.
Thanks for the warning. My wife tells me I make too many enemies by talking religion and politics. I will be careful.
By the way, we are Hindu's, but believe in the ancient way of Dharma, something that Buddha preached a return to...pure actions, pure thought, and the idea that no path is wrong, they are all just different...whichever divinity appeals to you is best for you.

[Care Bear]

70. Buddhism

is very big with Jews.

There is a Buddhist retreat that has a huge welcoming sign reading, "You don't have to be Jewish to be Buddhist, but it helps."

I get a lot from the meditation.

[TXlib]

8. Can't justify or rationalise faith... it just is.

Those around me who are faithful say they "just know" it's true.

I am an atheist.

I have not seen sufficient evidence (that can't be countered with another explanation) that God exists, and I am too much of an empiricist to believe that which cannot be verified by any human eyes.

However, as I understand it, from the viewpoint of a person of religious faith, faith isn't about proving that god exists; it's about having a sense of certainty that defies logic.

That certainty is what gives a faithful person a sense of connectedness, of oneness, with the universe, god, the creator, whatever you wish to call it.

I get that sense through studying physics.

[skypilot]

11. Ceasing to exist

Honestly, I wouldn't mind simply ceasing to exist after I died. I think that if people didn't have to worry about "sleeping perchance to dream" there would be less fear of death. The only problem for me is that it seems that the death of loved ones would be that much sadder to survivors if it were the case that there is nothing after death; no punishment for the evil ones and no reward for a life well-lived. In fact, I think we'd probably end up fearing the death of OTHERS more than our own deaths. Just a thought.

[BurtWorm]

13. Ceasing to exist would neither suck nor be great.

It wouldn't be anything at all. That's the whole point of not existing.

[skypilot]

14. Yes, I know...

...what I was getting at was that the people who DO still exist might have a problem with the idea that their deceased loved ones are now nothing and nowhere. I think that that would be a lot to swallow emotionally. Imagine adding that to the grieving process.

[BurtWorm]

18. Sorry, I wasn't really debating with you.

I was tyrying to amplify your point. But you're absolutely right, that nonexistence is a problem for the living, the survivors.

I've been a nonbeliever for a long time and I haven't had difficulty accepting that the people I've lost "might" be totally gone. I find it more difficult to accept that their personae are in a holding pattern somewhere. It's much easier, in my opinion, to make peace with a person's death by accepting that it really is the end.

[skypilot]

21. I agree.

It is easier as a non-beliver. Definitely one of the perks.:evilgrin:

[truthspeaker]

74. I don't find it any harder

I don't believe in an afterlife so accepting a loved one's non-existence is part of grief for me. I don't think it makes it any worse.

[TXlib]

16. But it sucks worrying about it.

[BurtWorm]

20. I don't understand why.

I'm not looking forward to dying, but I accept it's something we all have to do. I'm really not looking forward to people I love dying either, even moreso; but it gives me some peace to think that people I have lost to death already are truly, eternally, free from suffering and totally at peace because they're done. I'm sorry that dead people never experience the wonder of life after they die, but then again, a lot of living people miss that too.

[nedlogg]

15. I would like to believe.

I really would. I was raised a Catholic and as a child and young man went to church every Sunday, made my Communion and Confirmation.

But all the while I had my doubts. I would like to see some proof, a sign if you would. I know the argument "Look around you at the beauty of the world, the animals, the plant life, the sky, the ocean", yadda, yadda yadda.

But I would still like to see some little sign of some kind. If He could just make this pencil on my desk move a fraction of an inch for example, I would become devout. Is that too much to ask for someone who is on the fence about this? And I understand that one must have blind faith, but just something to convince me beyond a shadow of a doubt would be greatly appreciated.

And for those who do believe, I admire your belief and do hope it brings you comfort.

[jus_the_facts]

17. the need to believe you never really cease to exist....

....is the basis for eons of fantastical arguments to placate us from having to watch death take its toll amoung us....no one knows the truth about the beginning or the end...it's all pure conjecture and speculation....we're born...we live...we die....that's all anyone has ever known for sure...it's a shame so much time is wasted on the speculation of an afterlife instead of time better spent on making the HERE AND NOW better...much less the future...instead of prayin' to a supernatural being in hopes that HE will make EVERYTHING perfect one day...absolve us oh heavenly one for we are too blind to truly see...bah! :eyes:

[Burma Jones]

22. If Science grants us immortality one day,

Do you think there will still be religion?

[blondeatlast]

47. Religion, maybe not. Spirituality, I believe so.

I'm not in it for immortality. I suspect when I die that the worms will take me soul and all.

But my belief brings me peace, comfort (I really need it now--see my plea elsewhere in the Lounge), and hope when its dark.

Perhaps it isn't rational, but I couldn't care less. I was not irrevocably harmed by believing in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy, either.

[histohoney]

23. To me, yes. God does exist.

Why:
1. Their is no scientific reason to help the poor, or those with genetic disease, or to even let some one in your lane in a traffic jam, all these things go against survival of the fittest. All these things speak to my heart as good and right despite what would seem logical. To me this is the spirit of God talking to me. (Oh by the way I love science, I work in the medical sciences).
2. I have a peace and a happiness that has no reason for being even in my darkest times. I have survived cancer before I had children, I love children. Even as sad as the knowledge was to me that I would not be able to have children a still small voice said there would be children. It's to short a space to give details but my son is with me now because of a chain of events that can not be just chance.
3. I have faith. It's a gift, faith, yes but it's a gift that has to be worked on sometimes. Sometimes you just have to hold on and not try to be the smart-Aleck know it all I sometimes have in me. (I lose that fight sometimes but faith and hope keep me trying).
4. I know I am loved by God and Christ. I know that God loves all his children, this makes me want to do right and be kind to all I meet. (this is also why my family greats every one we know and those we have just meet with "Hello Friend".) I am to treat all as God's beloved-ed because we all are.
5. Hope. Do I mess up, get mean, say things do things I regret, yes. Hope tells me to keep trying, not for just this world but also for the next.

[mvd]

24. I believe because..

I feel that something must have started everything. Also, nature works in such harmony. My conscience has something to do with my belief, believe it or not. And finally, I get a sense of power from so many things, including the sunrise, Christmas, prayer, stars, and tornadoes.

[silverlib]

26. Religion isn't perfect

It is made up of humans. I believe that religion is a growth process and eventually the growth will come to the merging of Buddhism, Islam, Hindu, Christianity, etc. The ultimate perfection of religion will come with the mering of science.

Yes, I believe!

[Lost in GA]

31. nice thought

meanwhile, if only the 'true believers' of each religion would just stop hating/killing/condemning others!

[silverlib]

35. Wecome to DU

Hope you enjoy!

[blondeatlast]

48. My beliefs too, that's why when I attend services, I got to UU. nt

[muffin_man]

27. Humans have always believed in something

Something has always been worshiped. Even before we were civilized people worshiped something. Now I am aware that it was the only way they had to explain certain things that we now understand through science. Still I think everyone has to feel there is something/someone out there.If not then we are all truly completely alone and will die that way.I don't agree with religion in any case ,but am more of a intelligent design believer.The God presented by the Christians does not seem all that perfect to me but they would say " no one can understand the nature of God,thats why He seems imperfect"

[Care Bear]

71. When you write that

you think everyone has to feel there is something/someone out there, you are incorrect.

I can tolerate not knowing. I can also tolerate the whole thing being a cosmic accident; or rather that life comes and goes in different forms in different solar systems in a random fashion.

[sendero]

28. I believe.....

... that if God wanted us to know him and live a certain way, he'd tell us. Not with a book written in two versions, by scores of different people, edited who knows how many times by various kings and scoundrels, and translated perhaps poorly.

He could just pop in the sky and say "yo". Instead of expecting his own creations to not have critical thinking abilities.

So, while I'm not really an atheist, the "god" most people talk about does not ring true to me.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

29. Friendly religious debate = oxymoron. I'm outta this thread! Buh-bye! (nt)

[Lost in GA]

34. If not here, then where?

If we can discuss our diverse sexual lives and every other whim that crosses our minds with freedom in DU, then why not discuss this? Its an opportunity to hear what others are thinking, right? C'mon, don't leave, speak your mind.

[Kamika]

46. lol

that was pretty unessecery

[Nikia]

33. I believe in God

God has always been there for me. I know this and I have seen many miracles. I do not think it is good to have blind faith in an organized religion. It can be useful in providing a starting point for a person's spiritual quest. I am on a spiritual quest and I am a follower of Jesus. I could not imagine it any other way. It is a big part of my life and perhaps I owe my life to this.

[Lost in GA]

36. strong

and uplifting. Thank you.

[muffin_man]

39. Just curious not challenging

Have you ever felt maybe the bible we have today could be wrong? I know the argument for that would be"an all powerful God could ensure it was recorded accurately". Just wonder if belivers still have any type of doubts.I just do not have much faith in man and feel even to follow Jesus I would have to trust other men and their interpretation. I know my argument is moot because of the faith requirement and I do not have that faith I only look at Jesus/religion in a rational way. Sorry this probably seems incoherent but I do not want to get to deep in this and seem to be attacking anyones faith. I always try to respect other persons belief's and tradition's so that maybe they will enlighten me.

[Lost in GA]

41. my point exactly

It seems illogical that Jesus, representing such great love, would threaten us. Maybe we need to accept that everything we read is essentially a good thought contaminated, and decide what seems the most spiritual out of all the words we read? That may be more representative of any Higher power than a religious text. Just like we read the news, but are aware that every eyewitness report has its own spin.

[blondeatlast]

65. It probably is wrong, and therefore people will always get

only what they want out of it. But that applies to the texts of every religion--they may be "divinely inspired," but they are produced by humans and we make mistakes on a pretty regular basis, and some are whoppers.

Like me: LOVED the Beatitudes, but thumbs way down on the OT!

[Hell Hath No Fury]

38. I know what I hope...

to be the answer to your question, and I know what I think it may be, but at the end of the day, I know that this is an unanswerable question that will have to wait until I die to find the truth about.

I think it was Joseph Campell who said something like:

"He who thinks he knows - doesn't, he who thinks he doesn't know - does"

I'm in that later category -- deeply spiritual, while fully understanding everything I may believe or wish to be true may be 100% wrong.

[Lost in GA]

40. I am

so happy to be here, and read these incredible posts. Blown away. In these parts, they say 'Ah'm blessed'.

[blondeatlast]

50. Welcome to DU; and a warning...

You may want to avoid the God wars in General Discussion. They get VERY nasty sometimes.

Glad to have you aboard!

:toast:

[blondeatlast]

51. Me too--my mind is open, but it feels better when my chosen

divinity is there!

[blondeatlast]

49. He may have proved it, He must exist. A civil debate about spirituality...

in the DU Lounge?!

What next, the resurrection of the Grotto for a friendly debate on the Beatitudes vs. the Wiccan Rede???

[Darranar]

53. Well...

I think that every human being has the right to decide for himself or herself whether or not a diety exists, and if it does what exact form it takes. In my view, there is no right or wrong answer, only separate opinions; something or the lack of such a diety can never be proven.

I am an agnostic. I don't know whether or not God exists, nor do I have a belief either way; frankly I don't care whether or not he does. Morality is morality; whether handed down by an all-powerful being or not, it remains such. If an omnipowerful being existed out there who believed in slaughtering the weak, punishing the innocent, and rewarding self-centered greed, would there be a moral purpose, aside from simple self-preservation, to follow it?

[muffin_man]

55. I can't understand

how someone can not have a belief one way or the other. I mean people are so complex both physically and mentally I just can not say "oh well I can't prove it one way or the other so who cares" Like earth being the only place life exists would make the universe a waste of space so would no God/creator/Divine being or whatever you call it existing makes us a waste of time. What is our purpose? Skyscrapers,cars,TV? Or even helping one another,caring for the sick etc. Why exists? To have a job live for a brief period, witness maybe 1 or 2 great events and then nothing? I guess I have an ego problem thinking humans were meant for more then what we have accomplished so far and that we have a higher purpose. Note I don't identify w/any religion but do believe in something greater than human understanding can fathom being out there

[Darranar]

61. That's an interesting response...

some of those issues I have pondered myself, and I will try to address them as best I can.

I can't understand how someone can not have a belief one way or the other. I mean people are so complex both physically and mentally I just can not say "oh well I can't prove it one way or the other so who cares"

I'm not saying that because it is impossible to prove either way, it doesn't matter. I'm simply making the point that morality is independent from the existence or absence of some omnipotent being out there, which is why it is not really an issue for me. Some people confirm their morality through their theological beliefs (I think I'm phrasing that badly, no offense meant), and there is nothing wrong with that; I simply don't think that theism has a purpose to me beyond that confirmation. To me, it cannot confirm morality, so I see it as purposeless in regard to myself.

Like earth being the only place life exists would make the universe a waste of space so would no God/creator/Divine being or whatever you call it existing makes us a waste of time. What is our purpose? Or even helping one another,caring for the sick etc. Why exists? To have a job live for a brief period, witness maybe 1 or 2 great events and then nothing? I guess I have an ego problem thinking humans were meant for more then what we have accomplished so far and that we have a higher purpose. Note I don't identify w/any religion but do believe in something greater than human understanding can fathom being out there

Morality cannot be justified simply through rational arguments. The purely rational mind fails to comprehend the purpose of purpose, and therefore is incapable of accepting morality and moral principles. This is its great and only failure. The vast majority of humans - in fact, the vast majority of non-believers - believe in some sort of morality. Clearly, people are not totally rational.

I am among those of us not totally rational, but I do not see it as a weakness but rather a strength. A belief beyond rationality allows humans to see the purpose of purpose, and that does give us, to some extent, a purpose. To me, that purpose is making this world a better place.

[mumon]

56. Hate the term "higher power."

Means nothing to Buddhists...

[Lost in GA]

60. Just asking..

Do Buddhists hate? Personally, I use 'higher power' in an effort to put a name on It. Maybe what I call a higher power, the Buddha would call Nirvana. I'm not sure what I'm trying to name, maybe thats why I chose a name that rubs you wrong.

[blondeatlast]

64. My favorite term is, don't laugh, "Chosen Divinity," People then realize

I'm being as inclusive as possible.

In times of need, like I'm in now, I don't care what means of transmission is used, I'll just take any type of spiritual intervention available.

[mumon]

75. "Higher" than "what?"

maybe hate's too strong a word, but a power relationship that we're lower than just isn't meaningful to a Buddhist.

[NightTrain]

62. I call myself an atheist, and that's mainly because...

...I see no reason for me to have any religious beliefs. Never had any and probably never will.

[Lizz612]

63. I believe I am saved by good works alone.

I figure if god really is all knowing and half as forgiving as some would have me believe, god will understand my skepticism and my inability to chose a path to god. I am quite willing to put god in all the gaps that science cannot fill. (What started the big bang?) I believe that as long as I adhere to the basics, the Golden Rule, and help those with less, then I need not have faith in any one savior. I have a faith in the forgiveness and understanding of god and the fallibility of human messengers.

[JasonDeter]

66. Read the first 8 chapters of Romans 25 times

asking God to show you if He is real. I guarantee you He will answer you. Pick a bible easy to read like the New American Standard (NAS) or New International Version (NIV). You don't even have to believe He exists. He will let you know.

[RebelOne]

67. I am a devout atheist.

I do not believe in the supernatural or any higher power. People cling to their faith in god because they want to believe that they will be going to a better place when they die. Well, I have news for them, the only place they will be going is 6 feet under.

[Care Bear]

72. Politically speaking,

it does seem religion has always been used as a tool to keep the masses from demanding what they deserve in life by promising a wonderful afterlife.

[truthspeaker]

73. I can't demonstrate that there isn't or can't be a god,

I just see no reason to think there is.

For me it's the absence of evidence, not evidence of absence.