Kamikas big "the passion" post (devils advocate)

[Kamika]

Ok This will probably be big because I feel the need to defend the movie. Also because pretty much all other threads are negative about it.

Alot of people here dislikes this movie solely because it's religious. Ok first off why?

just how many religious movies are ever made? Not many, so why feel the need to clank down on it just because of that reason?

Imo it's petty and silly. I know alot of you will say it's because of the fact Mel Gibson is just about as fundie as you can get, but still you don't complain about Roman Polanski movies etc.

Ok and my second point which is also my biggest one is that even though you dislike the theme you should be happy as hell that an actor instead of just sitting on his money in some Beverly Hills mansion doing crappy by the book movies.. ACTUALLY does something new, something the big movie companies would NEVER dare to do because they are stuck doing crappy movies with famous actor #4.

If more actors dared to do this maybe we'd finaly get some good movies. And I'm sure most of these movies wouldn't be biblical. I'm sure actors like Sean Penn, Barbara Streisand, or even Directors like Steven Spielberg could make great movies if they weren't dependant on producers and the backing of a big movie company.

Thanks


Edit: With just a little luck Mel Gibson is starting a trend with this movie.

[Superfly]

1. You know...

for all their bitching, they can just vote with their wallets, and not see the movie. Dunno, just seems a lot more productive than sitting on a internet forum, wallowing in hyperbole... :shrug:

[stopthegop]

2. very good points. n/t

[Fenris]

3. If you don't like the idea, don't see it

I'm going to see it, but with an eye for quality of filmmaking, not for theological inspiration. Mel Gibson can make a fine movie when he wants to, and if this movie is anywhere near the quality of Braveheart, he should be commended.

As far as his religious beliefs go, I don't care. He wanted to make a movie about the last hours of Jesus because of his faith. That's admirable. I never stopped watching Roman Polanski movies just because of what he did. And what he did was horrible. T.S. Eliot was a conservative, but that doesn't mean I don't enjoy his poetry. And Tolkien was a Christian, but that doesn't mean I don't love The Lord of the Rings. The art itself is more important to me than the beliefs of the artist.

[Jackhammer Jesus]

4. I don't like it

because there are no car chases and explosions and guns and foul language and graphic sex scenes.

Seriously, though, I really don't care about the religious content of the movie. The only thing that bothers me (and only SLIGHTLY) is that there are idiots who will think everything they see in the movie is true. That's not my problem, though. They can watch it and believe it as much as they want to.

[chiburb]

5. Um, maybe because it's a snuff film?

But because it's Jesus getting snuffed it's ok?

Denby:

What is most depressing about “The Passion” is the thought that people will take their children to see it. Jesus said, “Suffer the little children to come unto me,” not “Let the little children watch me suffer.” How will parents deal with the pain, terror, and anger that children will doubtless feel as they watch a man flayed and pierced until dead? The despair of the movie is hard to shrug off, and Gibson’s timing couldn’t be more unfortunate: another dose of death-haunted religious fanaticism is the last thing we need.

http://www.newyorker.com/critics/cinema/

[Kamika]

6. ok so tell me this

You rather watch a movie like Taxi Driver or Dimbo the bear in funland?

My point here is.. if you want quality movies you can't always have movies suitable for children

[chiburb]

8. Nope.

Are you saying that the violence in this is no different than those? Have you read a review? Ebert calls it the most violent movie ever made, you read the Denby snip above.

Or are you saying that it's ok to make a snuff film because Jesus was exceptional?

[Kamika]

9. I don't think you can call this a snuff film

Aren't snuff movies where people get killed for real?


I'm sure Commando, Terminator or Taxi Driver are much more violent and unsuitable for kids.

[chiburb]

12. I doubt it...

But you didn't answer my questions...

Try this on for size:

...the lashing and flaying of Jesus goes on forever, prolonged by Gibson’s punishing use of slow motion, sometimes with Jesus’ face in the foreground, so that we can see him writhe and howl. In the climb up to Calvary, Caviezel, one eye swollen shut, his mouth open in agony, collapses repeatedly in slow motion under the weight of the Cross. Then comes the Crucifixion itself, dramatized with a curious fixation on the technical details—an arm pulled out of its socket, huge nails hammered into hands, with Caviezel jumping after each whack. At that point, I said to myself, “Mel Gibson has lost it,” and I was reminded of what other writers have pointed out—that Gibson, as an actor, has been beaten, mashed, and disembowelled in many of his movies. His obsession with pain, disguised by religious feelings, has now reached a frightening apotheosis.

http://www.newyorker.com/critics/cinema/

[KFC]

29. I would imagine that crucifixion is brutal

Sounds pretty close to reality to me.

[BlueEyedSon]

7. People who base their life on ONE BOOK

should go out and read a few more.....

[THUNDER HANDS]

10. I wont see it, but it has nothing to do with religion

I don't want to see the nail go through Jesus' hands. That is a seriously icky thing and I don't know if I could sit through it.

Why couldn't the Romans have just taped Jesus to the cross?

[BurtWorm]

14. Too bad they didn't have Velcro back then.

:D

[felonious thunk]

11. Artistic expression is artistic expression

I agree that it's good that he made this film, in the sense that it is a genuine attempt on Gibson's part for artistic expression. Like it or not, I think most would agree that it's better to have people expressing themselves artistically than not. Even if we find such art devoid of meaning or worse. And let's face it, were it not for religion the world would be without some of the greatest art human beings have ever created.

The flip side is, we have a right to dislike the expression of his artistic vision. We run into problems when we scapegoat as well. I think the furor of this film is predicated more on the potential anti-semitism rather than the actual use of a religious script.

I highly doubt I'll see this film. I have no interest in Mel Gibson's interpretation of the Passion (or anyone else's really), but I'm glad I live somewhere where he could make such a personal project. Is Kill Bill out on DVD yet?

[MrBenchley]

13. Doesn't bother me that it's religious...

DOES bother me that it's an anti-Semitic movie made by the son of a noted antiSemite...

Just as it bothers me that by all accounts it leaves out just about anything POSITIVE you could say about Jesus or his message in favor of spatter and Jew-baiting.

"Mel Gibson is just about as fundie as you can get, but still you don't complain about Roman Polanski movies etc."
I don't recall Polanski recycling Nazi propaganda...I DO find it hilarious that many of the religious groups pimping for the film are the ones Mel thinks are going straight to hell.

"With just a little luck Mel Gibson is starting a trend with this movie."
Too bad for her Leni Riefenstahl isn't around to cash in....

[Kamika]

15. kick

I'll kick this atleast once more :P

[Kamika]

30. second

I think last :P

but i still think it's relevant

[Liberal Veteran]

16. I won't be rushing out to see it. It's an irrelevant movie.

Anyone with a modicum of knowledge about Christianity knows Jesus died for our sins. What's the point? What will I learn? That crucifixion sucks? That Jesus died?

I might however go see a movie that told about the life and works and words of Jesus Christ.

[Pithlet]

23. Now, I'm not a Christian, but

liberal_veteran said:

I might however go see a movie that told about the life and works and words of Jesus Christ.

I would definitely go and see a movie like that.

I have no interest in seeing The Passion. I make decisions about movies and whether or not they're something I want to see, all the time. I've seen the reviews, and read the news pieces, and I'll pass, thank you.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

17. I would have preferred that Gibson himself play Jesus.

I haven't seen suffering, moaning in agony and martyring in any of his previous characters.

[Liberal Veteran]

18. Or good acting for that matter.

:)

[Kamika]

19. I don't know

Mad Max suffered and was in agony, same in Galipoli

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

24. Sarcasm intended.

You forgot Lethal Weapon (however many there were), Braveheart, The guy with the burned face (not actual tittle), etc, etc.

[Kamika]

25. cmon

Atleast give me some credit for Galipoli

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

27. I do. I've never even heard of it before you mentioned it.

Now I have one more for my list. I'm sure he really suffered in that one too. This guy cries more than Eric Roberts.

[ConcernedCanuk]

20. I'm cheap, so I'll wait till it hits the tube . .

.
.
.

And I haven't seen a Mel Gibson movie that I DIDN'T like

I really don't sympathize with those outraged with the movie either

It's a MOVIE for cryin' out loud, not a documentary . . .

and I'm quite sure it will be thought-provoking.

All those that objected, and those that gave it nasty reviews certainly haven't dissuaded too many from seeing it, and I suspect that all the hoopla has only INCREASED the number of people that will see it, - even if just to criticize it

I don't care what Mel's personal views are really, I think he's a great actor ..

So there !!

. here's lookin' at y'all . .

[Khephra]

21. Me?

I don't know if it is good or bad. I don't prejudge films.

That being said, Mel and his father have come off as loony in their interviews about the film though.

[slinkerwink]

22. actually, there are over 60 Jesus Freak films...

[DrWeird]

26. Basically, it's a filmed Passion Play, right?

And weren't Passion Plays created in 13th century Europe to get the unwashed masses fired up about killing jews and sacking Jerusalem, in the mistaken belief that Jews controlled the city and not muslims?

[Frangible]

28. I'll see it eventually

And I'm not even a Christian. Oh nos, violence in a movie? teh horror!

[ArkDem]

31. I wish there was a movie about

The Passion of Howard Dean.

[truthspeaker]

32. I don't think anyone objects to it because it's a religious movie

Where did you get that idea?

The two principal objections I have heard are that it portrays Jewish people, in general, negatively and that it's graphically violent and gory. I can't comment on those objections because I haven't seen the movie.

"Last Temptation of Christ" was a religious movie and I didn't object to that. So was "Little Buddha" (which I objected to because it sucked, not because it had a religious message).

[Kamika]

33. for some reaosn I get that impression and I think alot of others agree

It feels that just because Mel did a movie about religion he's to be ridiculed

[truthspeaker]

34. do you have any evidence besides your feelings?

[Kamika]

35. do you?

:p

[truthspeaker]

37. Yes. See my thread in this forum about attacks on "Passion".

Where I address specific objections that people have actually raised to the movie, not the feeling I get about why people object.

[Az]

36. Religion: Good with the Bad

How about a movie detailing some of the more exciting battles in the Old Testiment. Like the one where god has his followers destroy every living thing in a nation. He even has them rip open the pregnant women(Hosea 13:16).

Or how bout when David had to bring 100 foreskins to Saul in the name of vengence. Though the subject matter of that may run afoul of censorship. Can't be showing penus you know.

For a cliff hanger we could have a battle that god loses. Say the enemies have suppier technology to god and he has to come back in a sequel to wipe them out(Judges 1:19).

The reaction you are seeing is that believers seem to cherry pick the stories from the bible they like. There are some very horrid things done in the name of god in the bible. ie God sends some bears to maul a group of children because they called a man baldy(Kings2 2:24). Nonbelievers get a bit insensed when they are called immoral for not following a book that those accusing them of don't exactly follow themself.

There are some great messages in there. There are some horrid messages in there. I once saw a challenge at a Unitarian Universalist convention asking people to find one page in the bible with nothing they objected to on it. I suspect it can be done (its a big book) but its harder than you would think.

[Kamika]

38. Ok good points

But what do you say about my second point?