I noticed something today in the Library

[furrylitldevil]

I was sitting there, doing some work in the Library, and I looked up to see an attractive young woman come down the stairs. She was about average height with long blonde hair, make-up, and dressed in athletic "work out" pants, a windbreaker jacket, and one of those shirts that is too small so that the midriff is exposed. Then, what should pass my eye, but another young woman who was a bit taller, with no make-up, and had about 6 facial piercings and a few dreads in her hair, wearing a black leather patchwork jacket, jeans that were ripped on purpose, and a black leather belt. As I sat there, looking from one to the other, it struck me how very similar they were, both of them were trying to be "seen" without being "noticed."

Now I realize that both men and women make a certain attempt at being both unique, yet average to the 3rd person's perspective, but why do women generally seem to make it such a higher priority? 99.9% of all women when approached by a stranger of the opposite sex will automatically give a knee-jerk reaction of no when asked anything varying from "would you like to get a cup of coffee?" to "what say we go back to my place and make some crazy monkey love." to "hey, what is that perfume you have on?" So my question is this, why do most women go out of their way to make themselves stand out and be noticed when they have a pre-programmed intuition to turn down anyone interested in finding out a little more about them on any level? Is this come kind of genetic "look but don't touch" mentality passed down through generations?

Now, while I realize that men do this too, the main difference (I think) is that men tend to be a bit more narcissistic when it comes to their own outward appearance. We usually take a look in the mirror, and grade on our own scale of attractiveness, a sort of "If I were a woman, I'd sleep with me" approach whereas women tend to evaluate on the perspective of someone else, "I wonder if Jimmy thinks I'm attractive..." Anyone else care to elaborate?

[nini]

1. Maybe they dress like they want to dress because that's how they like it

???

whatever makes them comfortable with themselves and if that means feeling attractive to others then that's good too.

[blondeatlast]

2. Well said. Whatever floats one' boat.

[furrylitldevil]

4. Wouldn't you agree though

that if someone is unhappy with a certain aspect of their appearance, the criteria for changing that aspect will generally depend on if they are a man or woman? (Again, I'm saying generally here)

[nini]

6. I'm not sure what you mean.. but I think either sex is capable..

.. of wanting to change things with themselves.

Men may tend to go buy a penis enhancing SUV or Corvette, where a woman may put highlights in her hair.

so, if this is what you mean.. then yes, I agree :evilgrin:

[furrylitldevil]

10. What I mean is

When men try to make a change, they do so based on their own perceptions of what is attractive. The notion of "If I were a woman, I would sleep with me" effects not only their outward appearance, but the changes men make to themselves i.e. bigger penis, more muscles, no bald spot, etc. Whereas women tend to grade themselves in a bit different way. Women tend to ask themselves "do men find blonde hair attractive? Would men think showing my midriff is sexy?" That kind of thing.

[nini]

18. I think you're generalizing too much.

Both attitudes you describe basically get to the same thing - to attract others - right? It's just it's ok for men to be more open about it being all about getting laid, whereas women want to be attractive to get someone's attention initially. Actually, both are after the same thing. However, it also depends on where a person is in their life. Some men may want to attract a woman for the long term and some women may be happy just sleeping around.

[furrylitldevil]

22. I'm not wondering about the final result

I'm wondering about the process taken by both genders to get to the final result. I could be over-generalizing, which is always a danger you have to be cautious of when talking about this kind of a subject, but what I want to know is why do women want to get that initial attention just to deny it? (I've noticed this is especially bad when women travel alone, perhaps some kind of vulnerability reflex that they don't have when in groups. Of course, for men, the group has it's own pitfalls as well.)

[Mountainman]

3. Well I could use the old standby

I got this from some documentary so no flames please.

Women are looking for a good provider. They dress to attract him. When they say no it means they don't think you are that good provider.

[nini]

7. was that from the 50s?

:-)

I guess it's true for some women, but believe it or not some women like the old sex thing just like you guys do and that's why they want to attract men.

[wysi]

16. Erm no,

... current opinion in many academic circles (biology, psychology, philosophy). We're not entirely free agents in this regard - our mating behavior is influenced by selective pressures - though that does not mean that either a) one will make choices that reflect selection pressures or b) that one even has conscious awareness of these pressures.

[Goldberg]

5. It's because women are evil.

They dress like that to tease men, and when we want to ask them out or something, they, like you said, say "no."

Sometimes it's gotten so bad with women that I have thought about turning gay before. I'm serious...

[Blue-Jay]

8. Oh man.....

Goldberg, meet Can-of-Worms.
Can-of-Worms, meet Goldberg.


This is going to get good.

[nini]

9. And men never turn down a woman without huge knockers..

and blond hair??????

[Goldberg]

11. Heh...I wouldn't!

[nini]

19. :-)

exactly..

:evilgrin:

[furrylitldevil]

12. Therein lies a fundamental difference

Men are more apt at accepting offers from strange women, everything from "would you like to get some coffee?" to "let's go back to my place and make some crazy monkey love." So I guess the question is, why are women so thirsty for unwanted attention?

[nini]

20. You're confusing a woman wanting to be attractive with a woman..

on the prowl.

It's almost like saying a woman deserves to be raped because she dressed seductively (I'm not saying you're saying that)..

Why do you men have to think a woman who has herself pulled together is doing it just for male attention? Maybe she has a good self image and likes being attractive?

[furrylitldevil]

23. Perhaps, but what defines a "good self-image" for a woman?

I am not advocating rape in any way/shape/form by the way, just to clear up any confusion.

The problem lies in what the definition of a good self image means to a woman, as opposed to a man.

[nini]

29. depends on the person

some women don't want to wear makeup, some wouldn't be caught dead without it. some like the latest fashions, some prefer more conservateive classics.

Men and women both can both follow the trends or have little regard for them. Then there are those of both sexes who don't give a crap about personal appearance - we call them freepers :evilgrin:

Perhaps it's more obvious with women because of the makeup etc.. But we can just as easily say a man defines himself by what kind of car he has. Some have to have a big truck, some may think those are a waste of money and environmental disasters.

There are men who believe a woman has to have the Vogue magazine cover look to be attractive. Just as there are women who want the guy on the cover of GQ. Both aren't dealing with reality.

btw.. I know you werent' advocating rape which is why I added the little note that I didn't think you were.

I think we agree more than disagree on this. I just think both man AND women can be hungup on the superficial.

[furrylitldevil]

33. But perhaps if we define what those parameters are

then we could make a level playing field. Obviously, honesty is the last thing on everybody's mind (which would simplify things a whole lot) so the question becomes, where is the starting point? If we can't settle on introducing yourself to someone, where does it begin?

[nini]

37. If you're wanting to solve attraction/courting type issues..

.. we could be here forever and never come close. :-)
Too many variables on what individuals want, expect etc.. to come up with a general accepted method. That's the age old question. What is it that attracts people to others, what role does society play in that, what role does current trends play etc. etc.. etc. Attraction to others is a complex bizarre thing that has no explanation and never will. You're either attracted to someone or you're not.


Lot's of players in this game with a bunch of different ideas of what the rules are and what constitutes a win.

[furrylitldevil]

42. I know, I know

But couldn't there be a better way? A way for everyone to lay their cards on the table so that more people walk away happy? As it stands, men have to trick women into sleeping with them, which in turn means that men have to trick women into something as simple as a conversation. Honesty isn't a highly valued commodity, even with the overwhelming need for it to be.

[wysi]

46. ?

men have to trick women into sleeping with them

Do you think that women are really tricked into sleeping with men? This doesn't give women very much credit.

[furrylitldevil]

48. Some are

Why do you think so many women have so much contempt for men? Perhaps a better thing to say would be women have to be tricked into thinking that if they sleep with a man, he will stay committed to that one woman. I guess I got the wrong point across.

[furrylitldevil]

52. which leads me to another question

Let's say that a woman is dressed up with the intention to attract someone of the opposite sex, it is predetermined that she wants to share, if nothing else, at least one night with someone. Why then, aren't women more aggressive? I can count on one hand how many women have approached me, and usually the most direct thing they will say or ask is "what's your name?" but more often than that it's something along the lines of "got a light?"

[wysi]

53. Because...

... they don't need to be. As I said before, men are less choosy and therefore need to take more chances, and in general do so. Women can afford to sit back and wait.

[furrylitldevil]

55. See post #54 for my response

[wysi]

25. Without...

... the real or implied presence of others, there would be no need for a self (which merely differentiates 'us' from 'not us') and therefore no need for self-image or self-esteem (which is more or less a measure of what we think others think of us). So it's impossible to divorce 'caring about one's appearance' from 'caring about one's appearance to others'.

[furrylitldevil]

27. possible

but then if that were true, we would see a more even dividing line between how the two sexes put forth an outward appearance. Women (in general) would be just as likely to chose an outifit that plays down their appearance as men would be to buy nail polish or facial cream.

[wysi]

32. I don't see...

... how that follows. Remember that we accentuate what is attractive to a member of the sex we are interested in attracting. What is common is the need to be attractive in some way.

There's lots of room for personal variation in this, as we all have our own ideas about a suitable target audience. Perhaps the first person you saw likes athletic types, and the second likes arty edgy types.

[furrylitldevil]

35. well then

why aren't there more defined ways to appeal to those we would like to attract? It stands to reason that nobody wants to be alone, yet so many are because no one can agree on any way (or ways) to attract a more specific category?

[wysi]

40. Because...

... it's a 'general purpose' module built to work in a variety of environmental conditions (I really don't want to have to get into modularity here!). Having specific informational conditions won't help as we're not likely to encounter any one specific situation (but we have to deal with the problem of reproductive success in general).

[furrylitldevil]

45. Even a general module would be an improvement

we don't have to get into specifics

[wysi]

50. I've already argued for a general module.

The module increases one's chances of successfully reproducing and so is therefore general (has the same purpose irrespective of organism). It has to be sex-specific because men and women have differential levels of necessary parental investment (and therefore by necessity approach the problem in different ways). You can't separate the love/relationship part from the reproduction part, the former is biology's tool for achieving the latter.

[furrylitldevil]

54. I guess where all this is leading to is

I need a woman!!!!! :evilgrin:

[nini]

31. Caring about your appearance and dressing to attract the opposite sex

don't have to go hand in hand though.

that was my point.

[wysi]

34. If you're differentiating...

... conscious decisions to care about one's appearance from conscious decisions to attract the opposite (or even the same) sex, then I agree. On a general level (in terms of the underlying motivation to care about one's appearance) I disagree.

[furrylitldevil]

38. I guess what I was really trying to say was

The way we do things now is flawed, anyone can see that, given with what we know about certain generalizations about people, why can't there be an easier/better way?

[wysi]

43. Why do you think...

... men drive SUVs called 'Bighorn'? ;-)

[nini]

39. then we agree (nt)

.

[prolesunited]

28. I don't think women are evil at all

Perhaps it's just YOU!

They are not turning away men in general. Perhaps they just sense your underlying hostility and attitude toward them.

How does it make you feel when you get the vibe from a woman that she thinks all men are dogs? It really does go both ways.

On edit: This response was directed toward Goldberg, just so it's clear.

[Blue-Jay]

41. Sure... You'd say that, being a woman!

Damned evil women!

(where's Skittles when you need her?) HEY! SKITTLES!

[wysi]

13. a reply...

... but note that my perspective is based almost entirely on sociobiological principles. Those who have no use for evolutionary explanations please ignore.

There are actually two things at work here: one is enhancing attractiveness, and the other is responding to advances. I'll deal with the first one first.

Men on average are visually-oriented (for various reasons) and respond to attractiveness cues related to appearance. This is due to the fact that males are taking a gamble when they approach someone - they don't know for certain whether the person is fertile, so they have to use indirect cues (size, shape, physical condition, etc.) that are correlated with higher levels of fertility. Given that this 'calculation' does not occur in a vacuum, women respond to this by enhancing attractiveness in various ways (that they would consider attractive, given a particular target audience).

The second issue that you mention is the fact that women are forced (due to differential parental investment) to be more selective than men in choosing a partner. Women have to invest (at a minimum) nine months of gestation time and a year of feeding/caring to reproduce. Men, at a minimum, need only provide their sperm. It would be more advantageous for a woman to be choosy, selecting a partner who is more likely to stay with her and provide resources to ensure the survival of the offspring. Men do better with taking chances on rejection (increasing their chances of reproducing), and women do better when being choosy (increasing their chances of successfully rearing offspring).

You might be saying at this point: 'Who said anything about babies?' But remember the whole point of this mating ritual, from a biological standpoint, is to make babies (and our behavior has been molded by thousands of years of selection pressure). Our own explicit wishes don't enter into it as such (apart from prevention of babies of course!).

As I said, you might not buy all this biological explanation. In fact I would expect some flames for my own endorsement of it, so flame away if you must!

[furrylitldevil]

15. Based on that example

Wouldn't women be at the very least a 10% to 90% rejection ratio depending on the advance made? As it stands, any attempt at finding out more about a woman relies very much on some sociological gymnastics on the part of the man. Wouldn't men have adapted to this logic by now and made a better system?

[wysi]

21. response

Wouldn't women be at the very least a 10% to 90% rejection ratio depending on the advance made? As it stands, any attempt at finding out more about a woman relies very much on some sociological gymnastics on the part of the man. Wouldn't men have adapted to this logic by now and made a better system?

Yes, women would reject far more advances than they accept, and would be choosy about which advances they would accept (based on their own parameters, which are of course affected by the sort of unconscious calculations mentioned above).

Many men have actually 'tweaked' the use of the rejection risk approach by being more subtle... because intelligence is attractive (as it is correlated with the control and use of resources). But hitting on everyone in sight is still a useful strategy for men as it is not terribly time consuming. Here's an example... you could spend all night in a bar trying to get one woman to go home with you, and she may or may not. But if there are two hundred women in the bar and you ask each and every one, you have just saved yourself a lot of time and effort if just one says 'yes'.

[furrylitldevil]

24. To that, I have to inject a little psychology

Most women don't like being the backup. That is to say, if a woman sees a man openly trying to hit on everyone else in the bar, they are that much more likely to reject him (unless under the influence of alcohol or some other outside pressure) so your chances actually dwindle if you apply the numbers game.

[wysi]

26. Of course!

... because it's evidence that the man is not serious about investing resources. So one has to be careful about such things (i.e. try not to be too open about it). In actual fact such an approach does not work particularly well because each approach is influenced by knowledge about the person doing the approaching (kind of a bad example... a better one might be going to 200 different bars on the same street and asking a different woman in each one!).

[furrylitldevil]

30. I just seems that there would be a better way to do things by now

When you think about it, what power does a man have in that initial stage? Almost none. What risk is the woman taking? Again, almost none. Which goes back to my earlier question of, why do women desire so much unwanted attention?

[wysi]

36. Evolution...

... is very very slow in long-lived species like humans. Too slow for us to be able to notice.

As I said, for men it's a bit of a lottery. Why would women want the attention? Feedback that their efforts are succeeding and that they will in time attract the one they want to attract. Same rules apply even if you are already attached!

[furrylitldevil]

44. Things would be/could be so much simpler

if people on both sides would be honest with one another, which beggs the question, why is honesty frowned upon so much?

[wysi]

47. Now that's another question entirely...

... it's not that honesty is frowned upon, it's just that deception is more useful...

I'm definitely not going to get started on this one.

[furrylitldevil]

49. More useful in the short term

But the long-term consequences are what this whole thing is all about

[wysi]

51. Sorry...

... let me clarify. In everyday social situations there is a lot of deception that occurs. This is because it is useful for us to deceive others. This deception is usually about small things that aren't terribly important (feelings, attitudes, opinions). It happens less often with important stuff, but still happens.

[LastKnight]

14. get back to work.

at this rate youll never finish your homework... but good observation.

-LK

[furrylitldevil]

17. Ha!

I actually got my homework done.....after they both left. :-)

[Dogmudgeon]

56. The girl can't help it

This is exactly why I try to picture everybody, male and female alike, as they were when they were grade-school children -- after falling off their bicycle and ripping open their knees.

By the way, you should never have sex with anyone who is crazier than you are. If everybody followed that rule, we'd be a lot better off.

Of course, nobody would have sex, but that's my point.

--bkl
SEX -- it really IS Satan's way of making you miserable!