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pdx_prog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 12:31 PM
Original message
Got this email again....need witty, poignant rebutle....
Tax cuts - How they really work 10-29-03

Sometimes Politicians can exclaim; "It's just a tax cut for the rich!", and
it is just accepted to be fact. But what does that really mean? Just in
case you are not completely clear on this issue, we hope the following will
help. Please share this with your friends as you see fit.

Tax Cuts - A Simple Lesson In Economics

This is how the cookie crumbles. Please read it carefully.

Let's put tax cuts in terms everyone can understand. Suppose that every
day, ten men go out for dinner. The bill for all ten comes to $100.

If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something
like this:
The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay $1.
The sixth would pay $3.
The seventh $7.
The eighth $12.
The ninth $18.
The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.

So, that's what they decided to do.

The ten men ate dinner in the restaurant every day and seemed quite happy
with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve.

"Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the
cost of your daily meal by $20."

So, now dinner for the ten only cost $80. The group still wanted to pay
their bill the way we pay our taxes.

So, the first four men were unaffected. They would still eat for free. But
what about the other six, the paying customers? How could they divvy up the
$20 windfall so that everyone would get his 'fair share'?

The six men realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they
subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth
man would each end up being 'PAID' to eat their meal.

So, the restaurant owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each
man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the
amounts each should pay.

And so:
The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings). The
sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33% savings).
The seventh now paid $5 instead of $7 (28% savings).
The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).
The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).
The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).

Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to
eat for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare
their savings.

"I only got a dollar out of the $20," declared the sixth man. He pointed to
the tenth man "but he got $10!"

"Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a dollar, too.
It's unfair that he got ten times more than me!"

"That's true!!" shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get $10 back when I
got only $2? The wealthy get all the breaks!"

"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison. "We didn't get
anything at all. The system exploits the poor!" The nine men surrounded the
tenth and beat him up.

The next night the tenth man didn't show up for dinner, so the nine sat
down and ate without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they
discovered something important. They didn't have enough money between all
of them for even half of the bill!

And that, boys and girls, journalists and college professors, is how our
tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit
from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and
they just may not show up at the table anymore. There are lots of good
restaurants in Europe and the Caribbean.



Beside all that, is the American system really set up to attack those who struggle to get ahead?

Hell, lets go right to socialism: From each according to his means, to each according to his needs.

Sound familiar? The Democrats are not far from this.

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Kamika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
1. advice him that he needs some easier examples
Edited on Mon Feb-23-04 12:36 PM by Kamika
No conservative will read this..

Oh and Europe has higher tax :P
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ET Awful Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 12:35 PM
Response to Original message
2. JUst ask the sender . .
if he'd like you to call and make him a reservation :)

"There are lots of good restaurants in Europe and the Caribbean."
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wryter2000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 12:42 PM
Response to Original message
3. Just off the top of my head
Who says the most productive person is the richest? I imagine Paris Hilton is pretty damned rich, and what did she do that was so wonderful?

The working poor work a hell of a lot harder than the Walton family (Walmart).

Besides, comparing income taxes is only part of the story. Only wage earners pay FICA, which raises the percentage of their income paid in taxes to higher than for people who live on inherited wealth or dividends. Don't know where capital gains taxes and inheritance taxes stand now, I'm ashamed to say. But both Bushes wanted/want to do away with those.

The gap between rich and poor is widening, and that's bad for everyone.
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WoodrowFan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 12:45 PM
Response to Original message
4. If thye are a Bible-Thumper...
then quote Acts 2:44-45 "And all that believed were together, and had all things common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all , as every man had need."


not to mention Matthew 25: 31-46....
31. "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33. and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. 34. Then the King will say to those at his right hand, 'Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35. for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36. I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' 37. Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38. And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39. And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?' 40. And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.' 41. Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42. for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43. I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' 44. Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' 45. Then he will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.' 46. And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."


the analogy I always used when a RWer at work started bitching about the need for a flat tax was to compare it to when you recruited friends in college to help you move. You didn't ask the 90 lb theater major to move the heavy chest of drawers, you asked the 230 lb muscled football players. People carried different loads according to their abilities. It was viewed as fair and practical. Why then should not the rich carry more of the tax burden? They have obviously benifited more from our society, it's only fair that they carry a bit more of the load...

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wryter2000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 12:47 PM
Response to Original message
5. Maybe the easiest thing to say
Maybe the easiest thing to say is "Who lowered the price of the meal?" No one's lowered it. In fact, Bush spent $160 billion on a war this year. Let the tenth man pay 60% of that.

That's it. Let's send a bill to the rich for 60% of 160 billion, or $96 billion. And while we're at it, we can do the same for the huge Medicare give-away to drug companies and HMO's. And all his other hare-brained spending programs.

That ought to fix it.
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never cry wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 12:47 PM
Response to Original message
6. Recent threads on the same bullshit
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4morewars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. This is from my post....
in the second thread above:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/auntie/03/81.html

Auntie pinko explains it better than I could !!
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Monte Carlo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 12:49 PM
Response to Original message
7. There's nothing like a strained anecdote to buttress a shaky point.
You want a witty rebuttal? Ask any economics teacher or professor in the country if they'd present this for serious study to their class.
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AndyP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
9. Well..
If the richest people make a 1000 bucks every day then that's only 5% of their daily income. If the poorest few (not the free guy-that's stupid) only made 10 bucks a day(1% of the rich guy)then they would be paying 20% of their daily income. If you think about it, lets say the average american only makes 35,000 and the richest people make 3.5 million, you can see where i'm going with this.

Yes the poorer people pay less money while the rich people pay more money (and the percentage of the bill) BUT- the poor people pay a larger percentage of the money they earn and the rich a lesser percentage of the money they make. make sense???
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Parrcrow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
10. the tenth man
always exits through the kitchen and gets a free doggy bag the size of a Buick.
At the table he orders for everyone and gets the much finer meal himself.
Everyone from the waiters to the restaurant owner kiss his ass.
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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 01:10 PM
Response to Original message
11. Interesting but it assumes they all ate the same
It doesn't mention that the 4 poorest guys had to eat their packet of cheese while sitting on a sewer drain. It doesn't mention that the 5th guy had to decide whether to eat or by medicine for his kid. It doesn't mention that the 6th and 7th guys were mortgaged up to their eyeballs and had to work a job that was draining the very life out of them. It doesn't mention that the 8th guy paid substandard wages to the other guys and left them with little room to move. It doesn't mention that the 9th guy made all his money becuase of the preceding 8 men's work and effort. And it doesn't mention that the 10th man was wined and dined in a sumptous palace complete with servants and other wage slaves which accounted for the cost of his meal.
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izzie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 01:14 PM
Response to Original message
12. Also do recall it cost each man 6% of his first 50000 to enter the place
That should put it in a new light.Now what man is paying the most? Most of those people should read their Bible not just flash it around. I believe there is a story about the women who gave little but almost all she had. Wish is said to be better than giving a lot that means nothing to you. I guess I get sick of those e-mails that they send to you. As you must.
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HawkerHurricane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
13. I wish I could remember this properly...
Tax Cuts - A Simple Lesson In Economics

This is how the cookie crumbles. Please read it carefully.

Let's put tax cuts in terms everyone can understand. Suppose that every day, ten men go out for dinner. The bill for all ten comes to $100.

If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something
like this:
The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing. They would also eat crackers and drink water.
The fifth would pay $1. He would get a burger and water.
The sixth would pay $3. He would get a burger, fries, and water.
The seventh $7. He would get a salad, a double burger, curly fries, soda, and desert.
The eighth $12. He would have salad, a steak, choice of patato, soda, and desert.
The ninth $18. He would have soup and salad, a steak, choice of patato, a nice wine, and desert.
The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59. He would have vichisois, chef's salad, filet minon, fois gras, a fine wine, and his choice from the desert cart.

So, that's what they decided to do.

The ten men ate dinner in the restaurant every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, (well, the guys with just crackers were bummed, but who listens to them) until one day, the owner threw them a curve.

"Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily meal by $20."

One of the men, who knew something of basic math, asked how he could afford to reduce the cost.

"Oh, that's easy. You see, burgers really only cost me 50 cents. And soda is cheap, it's really only 10 cents. Water's free, and the crackers I buy in bulk for pennies a box. Salads are a little worse, they're about a buck each. What really kills me is the cost of the filet minon. That's $40 buy itself, and the wine's another $20, and the other fancy stuff..."
"Wait a minute" says the smart one, "you're telling us that most of the cost is in the one fancy meal. In fact, that one fancy meal actually costs MORE than the man pays! What's up with that?"

"Oh, I can't stop giving him the good meal... he owns lots of things, and if he stopped coming he'd tell his friends and they'd go somewhere else..."

"BUT" said the smart one "WE are the ones paying for HIS MEAL!"
"Well, yeah, but he's wealthy and all..."

So, the guys in the middle decided to go someplace else to eat. Unable to afford to give the rich man his fancy meal at a reduced cost anymore, the resteraunt owner was forced to raise his prices to reflect what the wealthy man actually should pay as his share. The wealthy man left in a huff, going elsewhere also. Which left the poor with no choice but to also go elsewhere, and the resteraunt owner went out of business.

And that, boys and girls, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works. The people who the most benefit from our system don't pay thier fair share, and whine when they don't get even more. And if they keep it up, the people who pay more than thier fair share are going to get angry and start going after them. After all, if we could get rid of thier greedy, cheating ways, maybe more in the middle will be able to become rich too... and maybe some of the poor will make it to the middle.
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never cry wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Best response I've seen, thanks...n/t
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silverlib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. I think the tenth man also..
gets a business contract in Iraq.
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pdx_prog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. great response...
Thanks to all of you....
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everythingsxen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 02:14 PM
Response to Original message
16. Here's a witty, poignant reply..
"Would you like to permanently block this address?"

YES
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