How has being part of the patriarchy affected you?

[MaryBear]

Has it been a benefit, or a detriment, or both? In what ways?

[Duncan Grant]

1. Now *that's* a question for a lounge thread!

Hey GrandmaBear!

Are you talking about a world dominated by men or just being the "head of the household" kind of patriarchy?

Benefits? Oh, yea. Isn't white male entitlement all the rage in Washington D.C. these days? (just to exagerate the point...)

Detriment? Yes. Men are socially compelled to conform to standardized roles of masculinity, etc. It's very oppressive for those of us who question the idea of an identity based on "John Wayne, Marlboro Man, etc." -- (my generalization of a complex phenomena)

There's lots more to talk about but by the time I finish all my thoughts--this thread will be in danger of being locked. Maybe if this one catches fire, I'll chime in again.

Congrats on the most interesting question I've ever seen in the lounge! It would be great to get men to talk about the experience of "being" a man...

How do you feel about hegemony? ;-)

[The Lone Liberal]

3. Not all white men

Just the ruling elite white men are the trouble. There are a lot of white men that are and have been just as oppressed as anyone other minority in this country. If you think that the coal miner in W. Virginia spitting up his lungs has anything in common with the "White Bread Ruling Class" you need to rethink history.

[Duncan Grant]

6. I'm in absolute agreement!

Thank you for expanding a simplified generalization! I appreciate the West Virginia reference, too. I was born in Logan, WV. (Still have relatives in Chapmanville) My grandfathers were coal miners - and I've been on Blair Mountain. Small world.

I think I was trying to make a similar point but with more sarcasm than usual. :hi:

[mitchum]

2. I could stay out all night (while my sister couldn't)

I can piss standing up (without fouling my shoes)
can't really point to any other "benefits"

[Ashes]

4. growing up in the 70's made me sensitive

but I had to spend much energy and time regaining my sense of macho-oomph. I think being a sensitive oomph is well received (so long as I don't say oomph - pa oomph - pa during sensitive moments.
Macho is the only way to go ( t-shirts are not available upon request).

[noiretextatique]

5. this is an interesting question

i suppose it's the roles...gender/racial roles, and the rules associated with them. i wrote a post about racial rules on the old DU...sure wish i could remember it now :D i think it was in a sharpton thread, and i was commenting on how often i hear a theme of betrayal in comments about his role in the brawley affair. it's almost as if the (false) accusation was not just levelled at the police department, but at all white people, by extension. i notice this theme of betrayal in comments about oj simpson as well...and the betrayal was much deeper than those grisly murders.

[Capn Sunshine]

18. OT-Noir

I'd pm you but I cant yet.
Miss your sig line.:)

[Nikia]

7. I'm not a man

Speaking to my male friends and husband:
The detriments are having to conform to society's version of masculinity. Presently, men have less gender freedom than women. I had a male friend complain about how he regretted that he couldn't cry if he was emotionally hurt so he had to be angry instead.
A benefit is that people often take men more seriously and assume them to be more competent. My friend tells me though that this too can be a detriment because more is expected of men in tough situations.
As a woman, I value my own intelligence and competence so I hate it that anyone would assume that I was less intelligent or competent based on my gender. I also find it offensive that some people think that I should not use my talents or outshine men.
Overall, I think patriarchy is bad because people should be allowed to be themselves and not fit into rigid gender stereotypes. Some people will follow stereotypes but others will not and I personally think that individuals that have talents in both tradtionally masculine and feminine areas are better able to cope in this modern world and are better rounded people. Also, any system that elevates one group while suppresses another is inheritantly bad. Arguing that women want to be taken care of by a man who knows best is similiar to the arguements that perpetuated slavery in this country.

[Shanty Oilish]

8. Men can't cry, like women can't walk alone at night

They can, but it's not advisable.

I'm a woman, and the effects of patriarchy on women are too obvious to state here, so I'll keep it trivial.

I had a devil of a time keeping my maiden name.

[AlienGirl]

16. Otter cries more than I do...

and I've walked alone at night more than he has.

Tucker

[BiggJawn]

9. Patriachy? Uh, I'm a non-believer, not Eastern Othrodox...

:7

Frankly, I didn't go to the "Right" school, don't have the "Right" wallpaper, nor the "Right" name, so I'm not part of the "Patriarchy"...

[MaryBear]

10. Like most things, the effect of living as part of the patriarchy

cannot be avoided, and serves most of us as both a benefit and a detriment. As has been stated earlier in this thread, many men have difficulty sitting with strong feelings that are not anger. Women often can handle any emotion but anger. As another example, most men that I have known, though liberal, have had some expectation of a hetero woman's role in the home. Most hetero women the same in terms of their male partner. Same gender couples struggle also as we are all part of the system, whether we like that system or not. The patriarchy is about power over and finding a balance of shared power is not included in that. The whole subject is more complicated for people of color who also have colonial racist attitudes that have filtered down that impact them. Mix all of us together and issues of power and powerlessness occur at many turns. I've been reading about the American Revolution and the thoughts of Adams (John & Abigail), Jefferson, et al, and how as members of the patriarchy who benefitted from it, they did not push on rights for other than propertied white males in the new country. Jefferson opposed slavery yet had slases. Adams valued Abigail's intellect, yeet did not push for votes for women. How different our democracy may have been had universal suffrage been granted to every adult person. Would the patriarchy exist as it does?

[noiretextatique]

11. NO...and we are still waging this battle today

after centuries of struggle. we need only look at florida (and other places) in 2000 to see how the right to vote is still being manipulated to serve power interests. unfortunately, it's still safe to disenfranchise certain voters. mythology about "difference" was been created to justify exclusion...this serves only the interests of those who were never excluded.

[Duncan Grant]

12. >Would the patriarchy exist as it does?<

I think it would be similar to what we experience today.

Let's include the Judeo-Christian influences in this discussion as well. "Adam's Rib" ring a bell? "Obey your husband"...this stuff is so deeply ingrained within our culture. It's influence is staggering!

So, even with universal suffrage granted to all, the influence of MALE religious specialists (priests, deacons, preachers, etc.) is pretty hard to fight.

Hey, there's one more benefit: men are the spiritual leaders. How about that?

[MaryBear]

13. Not necessarily.

Universal suffrage would have included other than the dominant English culture of the time. Many creation myths exist on the planet. I kinda like the one Cameron tells in Copper Woman, about Snot Boy. Also, in Genesis there is more than one creation story. Patriarchy chooses what serves its interet. Actually, women are the true spiritual leaders. Wisdom, Sophia in the Bible, is female.

[Duncan Grant]

14. Didn't convince you, eh? :-)

>Universal suffrage would have included other than the dominant English culture of the time.<

True. I haven't been particularly coherent when structuring my replies tonight. When you mentioned John Adams, America got stuck in my thoughts.

Not familiar with Snot Boy but I've marked the thread and will check it out -- can you imagine a spin on the evolution debate? Creationist argueing for a 'snot boy' orthodoxy? Love it.

Hagia Sophia -- Holy Wisdom. I don't disagree that women are the true spiritual leaders but I rarely see them honored outside of the contemporary shamanism 'movement'. Culturally, from my vantage point, men have the religious specialist positions covered (and are loath to give them up) but isolated changes are happening with some regularity. Rome will probably be late in coming around.

>Patriarchy chooses what serves its interet.< Now that's an insight that rings clear as a bell. We should talk about those interest sometime (with some narrowing of the topic of course)...what influences the choices, are they 'consciously' made, how are they affected thru time, is it only about power and resources? etc.

Thanks for a thought provoking thread. I appreciate an entertaining DU thread as much as the next person but this was a little more special for me. Off to keep an appointment with the sandman(women).
ciao! :hi:

[MaryBear]

15. I wonder if this would be better posted in another forum.

Most of us, myself included, addressed the issue as a philosophical question. Bringing patriarchy home to the self is difficult.

[alaine]

17. Probably, but it can't compete with Dean and Kucinich.

I wish there were threads in here like this every day. I don't at all agree with the men who exempt themselves from "patriarchy", male privliege crosses all class boundaries and it seems working class men are willing to fight the elitist upper class males for whom they grind their bodies to a pulp in mines, etc, yet they very much expect to hold on to their privilege given to them by the bible, where gender issues are concerned. An amazing book called "Class Action", by Bingham and Gansler(available at Amazon.com) just came out about a woman miner (Lois Jenson) that was severely harassed (at times assaulted) at a mining company with a UNION crew. The case was just resolved a few years ago after two decades of court battles. She was a single mother with a child that was a product of a rape and needed a good-paying job, but the men in the union tried in ever conceivable way to get her off that job. When I first started reading it I did not look at the copyright date and assumed that the events happened in the 60's or 70's, I was shocked when I looked to find that the court case was resolved in the last few years.

I much prefer the term "patriline" because this is the basis of patriarcy and what differentiates our culture from less androcentric ones in paleolithic and early neolithic times. (And in some indigenous cultures that still exist). Without it there is no patriarchy and no need for one.

Like alot of people said there is too much to talk about here but I sure do appreciate the question. In reference to male privilege I should add my own experience since that is what you asked for and I have to say that gender discrimination is rampant in working class occupations (I have done alot of factory work), much more common that the more sexy "sexual harassment".
I should say in all fairness that just as men have male privilege, I have 'white privilege' whether I am racist or not, it is a fact of this culture, not something I can wish away by being "enlightened" or "good".