did jesus have to die?

[veganwitch]

all the passion questions got me thinking.

i personally think of the crucifixition of christ as a personal tragedy. it shows humans' nasty desire for revenge, intolerance, and the joy we get in devising horrible ways to to horrible things to people.

jesus christ was a victim of capital punishment.

but the whole myth revolves around his death and resurrection.

so what would have happened if the romans didnt have capital punishment? would jesus have just gone down in history as a great teacher and prophet? would he still have become the messiah for those believers? would he have found some other miraculous way to die and resurrect?

[pagerbear]

1. Well, actually...

...that's one of the few things everybody HAS TO do.

[LuLu550]

2. well, if you believe that Christ was the Messiah, yes

His purpose was for God to have a physical form and suffer and die like a mortal in the most horrible way possible. It is through that suffering that God came to understand on a personal level, the human condition and granted all humans forgiveness for the "sin" of "being human."

At least that is my take on it.

[meti57b]

3. Since the Romans didn't tolerate much in the way of dissent ...

in the territories and Jesus was thought to be outspoken ... I suppose he didn't have too much of a chance to avoid it.

[veganwitch]

5. but assume they had no capital punishment.

that he would not be put to death.

would they have just chucked him out somewhere? would he continue his ministry there?

[JVS]

21. I'd assume that he'd have an "accident"

You don't screw with the powerful and get to live.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

4. In order to conform to the prophets from 1k years earlier, like

Isiah and Micah, yes, He did have to die, and die in that horrible way, and be sentanced and given up by His own people.

Yes, to your last question. There would have been another way.

[meti57b]

12. it was Passover ...

and the Sanhedrin did not conduct business during Passover or other holidays, so it was unlikely that he was sentenced by his "own people".

Crucifixion was the Roman's favorite method of executing Jews, which is why they used it.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

13. that is a good point, and no, he was not convicted by his own

people, but by Herrod.
But it appears that even if the Sanhedrin or Pharisees did not directly give him up, there may have been some of their confederates who did, perhaps during Passover, to prevent large crowds from interfereing?
Who knows?

[KG]

6. seems to this somewhat detached observer

that since he had earlier performed miracles such as turning water to wine and raising the dead, and him being the son of god and all (or god on earth as some fundies would have it), it seems to me no earthly power could keep him inprisoned, much less nailing him to a cross and killing him.

my impression from the fable is that crucifiction was a destiny he had to fulfill, not something that happened to him beyond his control.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

7. Correct. An alternatve could be that he would be stoned to

death by the Pharisees and leaders of Judaic law, or some such.

[sangh0]

18. "it seems to me no earthly power could keep him inprisoned"

ISTR that while awaiting his fate, JC was invited to use His Father's powers to free himself. ISTR that JC's response was very quotable, though I can't remember it myself.

[plurality]

8. that's what the catholic church would have you believe

But a reading of ancient Christian history shows that furthering Christ's message was the farthest thing from the ancient Roman Church's mind. The Church purposefully included books that furthered the deification of Christ and the need for the blood sacrifice, while excluding books that gave the impression that he was a prophet instead of a god.

I'm wondering if the 'necessity' of Christ's death wasn't also emphasized to shift the blame for it from Rome to God.

[Toby109]

9. Why did he die when he did?

That's my question. Yes, the Romans were horrible but compared to the Nazis? Why is there no story of a comparable character during the Holocaust?

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

10. Some say Dietrich Bonhoffer was one such person

see
http://www.dbonhoeffer.org/

and others in Google

was he a saint? well, Lutherans don't really have them

[On the Road]

11. It had to be part of his plan

The triumphal entry and the cleansing of the temple were provocative acts designed to stir fears of a popular revolt. Jesus had to realize that they would make him a marked man.

I had never though of it, but the crucifixion is certainly an argument against capital punishment. If the Romans had locked Jesus up and thrown away the key, he would not have been a martyr. Regardless of your beliefs, there would have been no resurrection.

[jimbo fett]

14. Is it important either way?

If one subscribes to the idea that his death was within his control to stop but not within his will then the death was simply a means for an end.

Other means could have/would have been used had his death not been.

I do think that Jesus allowed himself to be killed so that people would have to think on their own regarding his teachings rather than simply following Jesus-as-pope-figure. So, had he not been killed by the Romans he would have surely exited stage left in some other manner (unwitnessed ascension, etc.)

IMHO.

[blondeatlast]

39. That's pretty much as I see it.

He could have escaped his fate, but "chose" to be mortal.

I never have bought the Christ is the "Earthly God" stuff, myself. I believe he was, to all intents (but maybe not purposes), human.

[RoeBear]

15. What I think is 'funny' is...

...how some groups say we should hate Jews because they killed Christ.

It was the plan from his birth that he wold die on the cross. Regardless of that, what is the point of hating the descendants of people that died 2000 years ago?

[Goldberg]

16. Jesus had to die.

It was God's plan for Him. Jesus also knew he was going to die. The purpose of His death was to save each and ever one of us from our sinful lives. His death also gave us a bridge between us and God, so that we may go to Heaven if we believe.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

17. Yes, if you believe the prophets... John the Baptiser did his thing

knowing he was only a messenger, and also knowing full well he would be killed.
Jesus knew He was the Son of God and waded into the water to announce the begining of his adult ministry, clearly knowing it would result in his death.
Are there people who believe that srongly anymore? I am not sure. I have not met one myself.
I have met lots who think they do, and yes, they talk a good game, but they do not live right, they are no example.

[Goldberg]

20. I believe...but I don't practice what I preach.

So I'm not a very good example either. :(

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

30. Yeah, me too. I try. I try.

[Burma Jones]

19. Yes, for the same reason Cordelia has to die in King Lear

The story doesn't mean as much without the sacrifice

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

35. Right you are. It would not be the Greatest Story Ever Told

without plot and suspense, would it?

[VOX]

22. Yes. Winter -->spring; death-->birth; crucifixion-->resurrection

Without his death, there can be no resurrection or renewal in Christ.

The entire Christian mythology is dependent on Christ's triumph over death, and the ultimate message that all people are free of the finality of death.

[veganwitch]

24. jesus's life does imitate pagan sun gods

who yearly are killed and reborn. the date of easter corresponds with passover which corresponds with the solar first day of spring and though none of the gospels give the date of jesus' birth, it just so happens to be celebrated around the winter solstice, the rebirth of the pagan sun king. halloween became a 3 day prayer-fest for souls and saints.

[Beaker]

23. we all die...

but how many of us really live?

[Kamika]

25. Tough Question.. Jesus was sent here to die

If he hadn't died.. he wouldn't have been Jesus.. He came here to die for our sins.


BUT! just to toy with the idea.. yes I guess he would have been considered a prophet I guess, but since the Rabbis disliked him so much chances are that he would just have been forgotten as an imposter or something.

[veganwitch]

26. but what about john the baptist?

(lets forget that he was also killed)

he seemed to be a precurser to jesus and christians still remember him. hes not on par with jesus but remembered nonetheless.

[Burma Jones]

27. He was sent to eat bugs

[Fenris]

28. Jesus did not die, per se

The whole idea is that he transcended death. He was "resurrected." Death implies that he no longer exists, which is contradictory to Christian thought.

[geniph]

29. The idea was one grand gesture of blood sacrifice

to free mankind from the need of blood sacrifice ever after.

Or so my Pentecostally-trained husband tells me. The idea was that no Christian ever after would need to sacrifice a goat, chicken, 12 virgins, what-have-you - the blood sacrifice has already been done for them. All you need is faith in the redemption and resurrection.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

31. Of course he did...

Everybody dies.

But I'm not convinced that he died on the cross.

[qwertyMike]

32. He ever exist?

I mean if he didn't we would have had to invnent Him.

Seemed like a nice bloke.

Good message.

That John the Baptist character interested me more.
And Mary Magdalene.

[Forkboy]

33. Well yeah,just being wounded for our sins wouldn't cut it

:evilgrin:

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

36. Or getting food poisoning for our sins

Or getting blotto drunk for our sins.

Nah, just does not have the same zest.

[blondeatlast]

34. There may have been no Christianity (I am a Christian, so watch

the torches, fellow Christians).

I don't buy into the resurrection story at face value, though; I'm not sure how to read it. I have that problem with a lot of the KJV Bible, thoguh, which puts me in a bit of a predicament, but I can live with it.

Good question--really it is. Hoping for some wisdom here; cause I'm deficient at the moment.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

38. Face value? You mean that He actually was dead and then

resurrected by God in accordance with the Scriptures?
I suppose it is possible. I was not there.
It's a great story.
And it seems that something or someone stirred up all those people starting in Judea about 44 or so, and they seemed to believe it had happened.
Like lots and lots of the Bible, it could be a parable for pagan beliefs, a way to legitimate them, that got way out of control. People actually believed.
They wanted to believe.
They still do.

I have severe problems with English translations of the Bible, especially the more I learn about what the words really meant. Too much of the translations reflect the mores of the time of translation, and less of the Biblical content.

And I too, am a Christian... if the "Left Behinders" still consider Lutherans Christans... I forget.

[kodi]

37. chewing the menu instead of the meal i see.

poor dear.

[veganwitch]

40. do you want to explain that?

[kodi]

43. don't mistake the menu for the meal, or ritual for what it represents

The point is that worrying about whether Jesus intentionally died or not, rose from the dead or not, is not the feature that is supposed to drive one's heart in Christianity.

It is one thing to read the Bible, it is quite another to understand its metaphorical connotations, and the remarkable values Jesus’ message shows us.

The crux of orthodox (as opposed to heterodox/heretical)Christianity is the identification of the historical character as the only incarnation in history of the second person of the Blessed Trinity. But, this latter is a theological principle. When Paul said “I live now not I, but Christ in me,” he didn't say Jesus, the historical character, "in me," he said "Christ in me."

The problem, or distance between the Church/Christian religion and the words of Jesus is the difference between the denotation ... meaning it is a hard fact and the connotation ... the spirit of the word. The former is the basis for the Christian church... the historical Jesus.

But his words, even in the Gospel of Thomas have to be seen as their connotation... the spirit of the meaning... and the pointing of a way to lead a good life and seek the Transcendent. This was and is the religious part of the message, a way to a truly religious or transcendent experience.

The religion is just the device, the religion is just the menu to the meal that is that transcendental experience.

[2004Donkeys]

41. According to who?

According to the Christians, yes. It was atonement for our sins.

According to non-Christians, not via execution ... no.

[Hubert Flottz]

42. No he could have gone AWOL like Saint Shrubbie!

Thank Gawd he didn't!