Left Libertarians.

[coloradodem2005]

A number of hours ago, I posted a question about what our favorite Rush albums are. It segwayed into this discussion about Ayn Rand and libertarianism and it came up in a discussion about progressive libertarians. I always thought that libertarians had traits that were liberal and traits that were conservative. Though I have been told that libertarians were more conservative than liberal. For me, I can understand the basic philosophy of libertarianism. THough my political beliefs are progressive and more in line with Democrats than Republicans 99.9% of the time.


As for Rush, yes Neil Peart did borrow indirectly from Ayn Rand on 2112, and more directly from her on the song "Anthem". Though she has been an influence on Peart, I do not think that he follows her philosophy to the letter. Some of the political views I have heard Rush express seemed more progressive than conservative. I don't know a whole lot about Rand except that she hated communism.

On another note, the music on their album Grace Under Pressure is very evocative of George Orwell's "1984". I think in part because this album was released in 1984.


What are your thoughts on left libertarians and where I could find information on them?

[NashVegas]

1. These Guys Have An Interesting Mix of Articles

http://www.strike-the-root.com/

They have about as many articles to make a lefty take a second look as they do to piss one off.

[SHRED]

17. Libertarians are whacked--for the most part--

They want to remove government protections and sell everything to the highest bidder. Under their system; corporate monoploies, human rights removal, and environmental protection removal would be the norm.

Yeah that is happening now but mainly due to our citizen's overall apathy toward voting and governmental involvment, locally and nationally. The Libertarians view our voice(the "government") as the bad guy. They think we should hand our protection over to the likes of a Ken Lay.

[anti-NAFTA]

2. "left" libertarian?

Isn't that an oxymoron? Libertarians are the extreme right of the United States. Just check out Ron Paul's voting record.

[NashVegas]

5. Not Necessarily

What true libertarians want are as few laws as possible. IMO, the main difference between libertarians - the real ones - and anarchists is that the former want strong contigency plans (penal system/military) for those who can't get with the program and make it work for the betterment.

[coloradodem2005]

7. I don't think so.

I never thought libertarians were as extreme right as Bush or the other current repukes. The line from authoritarianism to libertarianism is a line that runs at a right angle as the one from conservative to liberal, right up the middle of that line. I think it just so happens that many who consider themselves libertarian are conservative. I think that basic libertarianism could go either way.

[anti-NAFTA]

10. Bush is farther to the left than Libertarians

He passed the prescription drug bill, pushed the country into deficits, signed No Child Left Behind...

Libertarians are against any form of taxation or govt. spending (except for the justice system_)

[coloradodem2005]

20. I understand what you are saying....

...however, by that token, Bush would be to the left of the Democrats who have balanced the budget, and equal with them on health care. Furthermore, NCLB is: (a) underfunded, and (b) putting the burden of accountability on the schools. This is typical republicanism at its best. I would think that it would be more to the left to leave schools alone than to pass something like that.

[PVnRT]

26. Actually

A libertarian is more like a classical liberal - they stress personal freedoms above all else and as little government regulations as possible. Ron Paul calls himself a libertarian because...well, I don't know why, really.

For the record, most of the actual libertarians I knew in college despised Republicans as much or more than they did the Democrats.

[Bill McBlueState]

3. the philosophy vs. the party

I think the libertarian (small l) philosophy has elements that appeal to both progressives and conservatives. But for whatever reason, the Libertarian (big L) Party likes to emphasize the conservative economic side, and downplay the more progressive social side. They seem to be little more than a haven for anti-tax activists.

[anti-NAFTA]

4. No

People tend to focus more on how their money is affected rather than if they're going to be charged for having a ten-piece of chronic.

Smarter. if you ask me

[FDRrocks]

6. I only understand civil libertarians...

Libertarian economic ideas disgust me.

[coloradodem2005]

8. That is the part of libertarianism I understand.

The civil aspect of it. I don't care much for their economic views.

[anti-NAFTA]

9. Libertarianism is defined by its economic views eom

[OhioStateProgressive]

11. very interesting

since you have a Floyd avatar I assume you realize that Peart wrote quite a few songs about Roger Waters...I have listened to Peart talk about it in a few interviews

[FDRrocks]

12. Waters was a socialist right...

I remember reading that he "became a capitalist" after the success Dark Side.+

[OhioStateProgressive]

13. well

he grew up as a Communist...his father was a communist preacher and schoolteacher who originally was a 'CO" from the army but later enlisted and died at Anzio

he did say he became a capitalist...but it was tongue in cheek...Roger fronts a few large charities and is considered a huge philanthropist, so it isn't really capitalism

[FDRrocks]

15. What were/are Pearts songs about Waters?

I mean, are they just about his art, or his political beliefs? I can't see Neil having much good to say about a socialist. I did a search but all I could find was a page about how Neil Peart loves Nick Mason :)

[OhioStateProgressive]

18. Neil felt

"Limelight" has been said to be nearly entirely about Roger...to the point that Neil even used a line that Roger used in 3 different songs "Thru the fisheyed lens...'

in an interview he said that Roger had an amazing gift for lyrics and the ability to speak to a persons inner soul...he felt that Roger let that gift go to waste after "The Wall" and he felt that Roger became so introverted and insular that Rogers own alienation became the art itself.

Roger didn't really write about Socialism...he wrote lyrics that dealt with inner pain and helplessness/hopelessness

[coloradodem2005]

19. I actually did not know that.

Which ones?

[OhioStateProgressive]

22. mainly limelight

i have been searching my house for a book I have with an interview from Neil Peart in it...i bought it a few years ago and when i find it i will post the interview:)

[rogerashton]

14. anarchist communism

was the original libertarianism. Joseph DeJacque's Francophone New York Newspaper "Le Libertaire" seems to be the origin of the phrase and for 100 years "libertarian" meant anarchist-communist. Free marketeers recoined the phrase for themselves in the 1950's. To be fair, I don't think they stole it -- they were and are ignorant of its longer use.

Here is an anarchist-communist take on "real libertarians."

Real libertarians reject laws that favor property owners just as much as they do other laws, unli,e "free marketeers." "The law in its majesty prohibits rich and poor alike from sleeping under bridges and stealing bread." (Anatole France) Thus the free marketeers are the fakers. The real libertarians demand that economic arrangements be based on the concurrence of all involved, regardless of corecively enforced property rights and contract laws, which would be abolished. (As an economist I have to say that this is an unsolved problem in social mechanism design, but perhaps it will be solved in the future. Anyway, anarchists are idealists who do not settle for lesser evils like market systems).

Real libertarians reject religious authority as well as temporal. "If God existed it would be necessary to abolish him." (Bakunin) Many were atheistic materialists, although I suppose Deism and rational mysticism might be reconciled with libertarianism. Real libertarians regard reason as the sole authority and reject superstition in all its forms, including astrology and Austrian economics.

Real libertarians reject all moralistic authoritarianism. Emma Goldman defended the rights of whores. Nineteenth century libertarians boycotted marriage (as advocated here in another thread), although they also often disapproved of "libertinism" and lived as faithful heterosexual couples. (Some twentieth century libertarians came close to making promiscuity mandatory, an interesting logical inconsistency.)

[FDRrocks]

16. Is the moderm form Libertarian socialism?

Or what are the differences b/t Libertarian socialism (what I understand is the long name for Anarchism) and Anarchist Communism?

I sympathize with the views of Libertarian Socialists (Noam Chomsky turned me onto the belief really), and I think the idea that all government inevitably becomes corrupt as hell is straight on.

[anti-NAFTA]

21. LIBERTARIAN SOCIALISM IS NONEXISTENT TODAY!

The band Rush are libertarian anarcho-capitalists. Meaning they are to the right of George W. Bush.

When you say, "I am libertarian", it means you are against any form of social governing.

[rogerashton]

24. Do you have some sort of problem, here?

I don't know beans about the band 'Rush,' nor care in the least. The one Rush fan I have known personally, a 1400 SAT student who flunked out about 1993, was a committed Randian free-marketeer, but he didn't know from anarchist-communism.

It is true that libertarian socialism does not exist today. So what? Neither does American democracy, but we all (on this board) aspire to it.

As I indicated before, it is difficult for me to understand what a working communist anarchism would look like, but that could just be a failure of imagination on my part.

My point was that a libertarianism that supports (government enforced) property rights and business contracts, or in other words government enforced economic inequality, is either a very confused or very hypocritical kind of libertarianism. That is a view that anarchist communists express (well, there are a few of them around, you know) and I agree with it.

The all-caps headline is a little shrill, and that suggests to me that this is a problem for you.

[Nikia]

23. A misguided nonrealistic bunch

I don't know if this is what you are talking about but I have met Liberatarians who weren't really just Republicans who want marijuana legalized. They really believed that we would be better off repealing most laws and encouraging people to take responsibility for their actions and this would promote community involvement.
They seem to forget that we don't live in small communities where everyone knows each other and that large corporations are much more powerful than private individuals just by virtue of their wealth even if special corporate protections were repealed. Most regulations are reactionary to real problems, not just a form of social control like they think. I agree with them on civil liberties, but we need protections against business, especially large business and I disagree with repealing socail programs, especially education.

[Taeger]

25. stupidity of labels

Both Liberal and Libertarian are derived from Liberty. That is, advocates of freedoms.

Liberal's got their name because they believed in loosening the strong social codes that once existed in our country. Their are social liberals. However, most "liberals" are in favor of strong regulation against business. They are also in favor of strong laws against discrimination and forcing people to hire minorities. "Liberals" are also tightly associated with smoking bans in bars and restaurants. Something that is VERY unliberal.

Libertarians are the only REAL liberals. The people we think of as "liberals" are really populist progressives. They believe in increasing leveling the playing field and increasing our overall standard of living through government regulation and strong education.

The label Conservative ALSO does not make any sense. Conservatives were once for keeping society the way it was. Keep segregation, keep social practices under the thumb of community leaders, etc... Ironically, typical conservatives could care LESS about conserving the environment or conserving the economic cohesion of poor neighborhoods. Conservatives were typically in it for themselves.

The irony is that everything that conservatives WANT to conserve our now gone. The GOP is a party of social regressives, economic/environmental exploitives, theocrats and gross irresponsibility. They CLAIM to want smaller government. But that was ALWAYS a ruse because Democrats controlled congress for so long. They LIKE welfare for the rich.

I RESPECT libertarians because they are CONSISTENT. They will defend the KKK and Rush Limbaugh on civil liberties issue as much as they defened Scopes. I don't AGREE with them because I believe the government is the PEOPLES institution. It is their job to create social contracts the ensure equal opportunity to ALL it's citizens.

Neither the far left nor far right have a consistent ideology. They advocate what they want. That's fine I guess, but it's also REALLY annoying. There is no such thing as either a Liberal OR Conservative. They are both equivalent to the Boogeyman.

[s33]

27. No such thing as a 'left' or 'right' wing libertarian

The terms left and right wing are parts of the spectrum of 'government'.You cant have either when everyone determines their own fate rather than submitting to someone elses moral or financial codes.True libertarianism is about personal responsibiity,not submitting to any ideology.Hitler would've hated it as much as Marx.And for those arguing it would create a world controlled by corporations,just remember that the only reason corporations dominate is because of the government protection they receive at the expense of small business.Libertarians believe humanity is ready to stop answering to nosy cops,politicians,moral preachers and special interest groups.

Libertarianism=leave me the hell alone.Anyone who has a problem with that should ask themselves why they feel such compulsion to control other peoples lives.

If you dont think it works,try visiting Monaco,the closest thing to a free libertarian society in the world.Tolerant,low crime,almost no poverty and one of the most envied societies in the world.

Unfortunately,for the US to become libertarian,it would require the breaking up of the union into small nations-states.

[camero]

28. Have no problems with social libertarianism

The problem is on the economic side. Just as one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, one man's economic "liberty" is another man's oppression.

I think Lincoln had a quote about it via the story of the wolf and the sheep. I googled but couldn't find it anywhere.

[corporatewhore]

29. well there are libertarians who like kucinich two of em are in my

group they say he has appeal to alot of libertarians because of his stance on NAFTA and PATRIOT ACT Libertarians also didnt like the war