Fish Wars Revisited

[Lionel Mandrake]

Jonah Goldberg, protege of William F. Buckley and author of Liberal Fascism, writes annoying editorials which appear in the LA Times, among other places. For his latest stupid opinion, see

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-goldberg1apr01,0,5893988.column

For a worthy counterattack by ecologist Andrew Guerin, see

http://artificialhabitat.wordpress.com/2008/04/01/jonah-goldberg-moron-liar-bigot-you-decide/

I would add that Jonah Goldberg isn't much of a scholar. He writes

"Traditionally, the fish pictogram conjures the miracle of the loaves and fishes as well as the Greek word IXOYE, which not only means fish but serves as an acronym, in Greek ... "

The ancient Greek word is iota-chi-theta-upsilon-sigma, not iota-chi-omicron-upsilon-epsilon.

For a clear explanation of the Jesus Fish, see

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ichthys

[CaliforniaPeggy]

1. My dear Lionel Mandrake!

You sound like a Greek scholar!

This is fascinating stuff...

I have no use at all for people like Jonah Goldberg...

Thank you for your illuminating remarks on the Jesus fish and the fish wars in general!

:hi:

[Lionel Mandrake]

2. My dear CP

You're quite welcome, and thank you for the flattery.

I am no Greek scholar, and I have never joined a fraternity, but I do know the Greek alphabet. I hate it when people confuse capital sigma with E.

I find Jonah Goldberg useful only as a straw man. Unlike the late Bill Buckley, who was charming and intelligent, Goldberg is an easy target.

[Lionel Mandrake]

3. Jonah Goldberg's opinion

For those DUers who are unable or unwilling to follow a link, here are some excerpts from Jonah Goldberg's editorial:

(begin quotation)

"In America, the easiest place to find this ancient symbol is on the back of cars. Recently, however, it seems as if Jesus fish have become outnumbered by Darwin fish.

"I find Darwin fish offensive. First, there's the smugness. The undeniable message: Those Jesus fish people are less evolved, less sophisticated than we Darwin fishers.

"The hypocrisy is even more glaring. Darwin fish are often stuck next to bumper stickers promoting tolerance or admonishing random motorists that "hate is not a family value." But the whole point of the Darwin fish is intolerance; similar mockery of a cherished symbol would rightly be condemned as bigoted if aimed at blacks or women or, yes, Muslims.

"As Christopher Caldwell once observed in the Weekly Standard, Darwin fish flout the agreed-on etiquette of identity politics. "Namely: It's acceptable to assert identity and abhorrent to attack it. A plaque with 'Shalom' written inside a Star of David would hardly attract notice; a plaque with 'Usury' written inside the same symbol would be an outrage."

"But the most annoying aspect of the Darwin fish is the false bravado it represents. It's a courageous pose without consequence. Like so much other Christian-baiting in American popular culture, sporting your Darwin fish is a way to speak truth to power on the cheap."

(end of quotation)

Y'all might conclude from my avatar that I disagree with Mr. Goldberg. ;)

[underpants]

6. He has nothing better to do?

and on top of that he quotes the National Review?? The "magazine" HE writes for????


:rofl:

Goldberg is hilarious. He must have a lot of people who seriously never crack a smile until he leaves the room to carry out their mad plan of distraction and public self-humiliation


:rofl:

[Lionel Mandrake]

8. Yep. He's a clown without a sense of humor,

which is funny in a grotesque sort of way.

[Orsino]

7. He's an idiot...

...and unable to shape a coherent argument without contradicting himself.

But he's useful for keeping the bigger fools in line.

[Lionel Mandrake]

9. Right.

With a friend like Jonah Goldberg, conservatives don't need enemies.

[Lionel Mandrake]

4. Andrew Guerin's reply

For those same DUers who are unable or unwilling to follow a link, here are some excerpts from Andrew Guerin's reply to Jonah Goldberg:

(begin quotation)

I was looking for news articles on Fitna, Geert Wilders film about Islam which, thanks to threats of violence, etc, etc, has provoked much protest from Western politicians, etc, etc, and has now been for the most part withdrawn.

I happened upon this article, by Jonah Goldberg, in the LA times.

I would never have guessed where he was going to go with it.

It starts off much as you might expect. He talks approvingly of the film’s message, and the negative picture it paints of Islam. He complains about the knee-jerk denunciation of the film by muslim leaders, and their threats towards the Netherlands over the film. He chastises the governments of Europe, and the UN, for their willingness to fall into line and denounce the film and it’s makers, rather than stand up for the principles of free speech and denounce those who would use threats and intimidation to stifle criticism. On these latter two points, at least, he is spot on.

So I was somewhat surprised with where he goes next.

He goes on to complain about Darwin fish.

Darwin fish.

Yes.

Darwin fish.

You see, putting a Darwin fish on your car is cowardly and intolerant.

Who knew?

(end of quotation)

[CaliforniaPeggy]

5. Great minds think alike, or ...GMTA! Behold:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3089932

[Lionel Mandrake]

10. Thank you for telling us about that thread in GD.

It is similar to this thread, but much more active and much more heated.

We could use more activity, :)

and they could use less heat. :(

[petronius]

11. Does he really not understand that the Darwin fish is a direct response

to (some) Christians in the U.S. attempting to impose their religion on the rest of us - through prayer in school, intelligent design, etc. There wouldn't be any Darwin fish if there hadn't been such a prolonged effort on the part of the Christian right to subvert the basic principles of our country.

And his Star of David analogy is laughable. "Darwin" is not an offensive stereotype for Christians, so the whole thing breaks down...

[Lionel Mandrake]

12. Goldberg really does not understand any of that.

His rambling editorial is concerned mostly with his own feelings on the matter. It borders on solipsism.

[Lady Freedom]

13. They forgot one! My favorite too! :(

[Lionel Mandrake]

14. You are not alone.

Here is another FSM post:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3089932#3090846

And here is an image guaranteed to offend Jonah Goldberg:

http://www.venganza.org/touched.htm