Grammar Geek poll...The serial comma -- Yay or Nay?

[Arugula Latte]

[supernova]

1. Serial comma or not is usually the distiction between formal/informal

English.

Serial comma is appropriate for academic, scientific and other professional settings,

It is not required in more creative endeavors though.

[bluhoodie]

91. Never heard that one -- w/ graduate training in textual editing

I was told that the serial comma was dropped by newspapers in order to save ink. All those commas cost money in ink. AND you will notice, if you look, that the non-serial comma style is most often used in newspapers. (Cool, huh?) Since then it has been adopted variously, loosely, because people are used to seeing it that way. (Kinda like the one that grates on my nerves -- "Me and my friend... (went shopping)" -- that has been picked up by multitudes these days. How in gods name can anyone think that's correct??!! Would they say "Me went shopping"?) -- I digress... :scared:

I find that leaving out the last comma can lead to some ambiguity as you sometimes can't tell if the last couple of words are really an appositive and not part of the series.

[DS1]

2. People not voting for option one are wrong, slow, and annoying.

[GCP]

3. You're wrong

I was taught in the mother tongue in England, and you don't use a serial comma :P

[DS1]

6. You argued against precisely that less than two weeks ago

[GCP]

8. No I didn't

And I tried checking the archives, can't find the thread. If you can find it, please link it. I'll apologize gracefully if you're right.

[DS1]

13. Ah, indeed you didn't.

Wrong then, too.


It's in the Wow, just wow thread I started

[Bake]

17. You left out the comma that should go between "No" and "I didn't."

It should be, properly, "No, I didn't."

:rofl:

Bake

[Bake]

15. I got yer mother tongue right here!

Screw the Brits! They spell things funny ... like colour, honour, etc. Oh wait, I like that spelling.

Nevertheless, I vote FOR the serial comma.

Bake

[ashling]

65. Why do you hate America?

[Inchworm]

5. I agree to wrong

I'm not easily annoyed though. :)

:hi:

[Hand]

19. You are entirely correct.

They are also pretentious, ignorant, imprecise, slovenly, and ill-smelling. :toast:

[LeftyMom]

4. People who omit the serial comma are sloppy, lazy, and simply wrong. nt

[MrCoffee]

7. The Oxford comma is pretentious, wasteful and unnecessary

[Flaxbee]

50. noooo! Inspector Morse always used it!

(or at least I think he did -- I do remember he discussed it, but can't remember if he liked it or not. Colin Dexter's mysteries). Sometimes you need it, though, if you want to emphasize the word before the "and". In your sentence, I'd pause after "wasteful" and a comma helps with that.

[Orsino]

67. I don't know about pretentious...

...but I tend to use more commas than necessary, so I am a recent convert to dropping the serial one.

[Gormy Cuss]

9. I use series commas.

And, if I want, I use commas, like, whenever.

[Arugula Latte]

24. Are you SERIES!11??!!!1?

You must have no morels.

[Dr. Strange]

10. I am, primarily, a math geek. But even I know that the serial comma is proper:

"I greatly admire my parents, Mother Theresa, and the Pope."

[Hand]

20. QED. nt

[Rabrrrrrr]

23. An excellent example - without the comma, Mother Theresa and The Pope are your parents.

[Dr. Strange]

28. PRECISELY!

[Hosnon]

45. Yes, an excellent example of when the comma is needed.

But that does not mean it is always needed.

[Guaranteed]

57. But that would have been, properly....

"I greatly admire my parents: Mother Theresa and the Pope."

[Rabrrrrrr]

71. Not really.

We would write "Let me introduce you to my parents, Mr. and Mrs. Alfredo Fettuccini".

Not "Let me introduce you to my parents: Mr. and Mrs. Alfredo Fettuccini."


Likewise, we would write:

"My doctor, Flavius Vespasianus, says that I should try to relax more".

Not

"My doctor: Flavius Vespasianus, says that I should try to relax more."


The colon is not necessary in the way that you used it, and it becomes overkill.

[Oeditpus Rex]

31. Even without the Republican comma

I still read those as independent of each other.



If you wanted to make me think what you think you're making me think, you'd do this:

"I greatly admire my parents: Mother Teresa and the Pope."

[Connonym]

11. I HATE the serial comma

why do you need the comma and the conjunction? It's wasteful.

[Book Lover]

14. Wasteful? What, are you setting type?

Adding a serial comma makes the meaning more clear; that is why it is logical to use it.

[Connonym]

21. if you are using the conjunction "and" why do you need the comma?

it's sort of implied in the word and that you're adding to the list. I really don't see how putting that additional comma makes things more clear. Seriously, "lions, tigers, and bears" is more clear than "lions, tigers and bears"?

The comment about it being wasteful was just meant to be funny.

[Book Lover]

22. Sorry - humor impared

I thought my line was funny, but sadly, no.

I would say that if all three animals are equal in the list, excluding the final comma groups tigers and bears in a way that adds an extraneous meaning. Are the tigers and bears then coming to me over the hill, as opposed to the lions who are coming out of the woods?

[Connonym]

25. You have Bruce Campbell as your icon

so there's no way you're humor impaired :)

[Book Lover]

29. LOL

Thank you for your vote of confidence! Maybe it's just today... :-)

[fizzgig]

12. nay!

i've written in ap style for long enough that the serial comma bugs the holy hell out of me

[Oeditpus Rex]

32. AP STYLE! AP STYLE! AP STYLE!

BOO-yah!

[fizzgig]

33. i was waiting for you to show up here

:rofl:

[Oeditpus Rex]

35. You knew I would

:D

[harmonicon]

53. AKA dumbed-down style

[Oeditpus Rex]

61. Which is a cynical way of saying

"Writing for the masses."

[harmonicon]

84. I don't think so

I don't like the idea that those who would like to read proper sentences with words spelled correctly in them is elitist. I've had friends who have journalism degrees and they said that having to write in this AP style was a real pain, since they're obviously already intelligent people who could write things correctly. I would always like to think we are overestimating our audience when we write than to know that we are insulting the intellect of a minority of that audience.

[Oeditpus Rex]

85. Those who wish to get their news

in a manner that they do not find intellectually insulting are quite free to do so.

I understand the New Yorker still accepts subscription applications.

In the meantime, the AP and its member newspapers will continue to write for everyone else, i.e. the majority.

[CTyankee]

83. Me, too. I can see my English prof's red pen mark as I type this!

It's a big no no to use that extra comma. It makes people wonder where you went to skool...

[Rabrrrrrr]

16. The serial comma is the only sensible, and human, way to punctuate.

A line like "lions, tigers and bears" should actually have an "and" before the tiger, since "tigers" is lumped with "bears" as a unit. So, "lions, and tigers and bears".

Or, if one is intending them to be separate entities, then punctuates the human way:

"lions, tigers, and bears"

[ashling]

59. Corrrrrrect!

:)

[KansDem]

18. You know, I've often wondered about this...

No really. the phrase I prefer to punctuate like this: "lions, tigers and bears" tends to couple "tigers" and "bears" together. However a phrase like I prefer to punctuate like this: "lions, tigers, and bears" tends to keep them separate.

Like:
Lions....tigers and bears (first example)--Ok, if your including "tigers" and "bears" together.

However,

Lions...tigers...bears (second example)--If you consider all three as separate entities making up a collection

[hyphenate]

26. An old argument

Properly, it's still a comma before the conjunction in most circles, but for most part, we don't see it too often anymore. Many newspaper style guides don't find it mandatory.

[ashling]

60. Most newspapers these days are

chock full of grammar mistakes, logical fallacie, and just plane stupid writing!

[hyphenate]

80. Have you ever noticed

that those newspapers with the worst grammar and most mishandled standards of writing are either just short of being tabloids, like the New York Post and the Boston Herald, or have a Repub bent to them? It's annoying here in Worcester with the Telegram-Gazette, which comes down to the right side of center in their stories and focus, and remains a conservative news source. At least the Boston Globe is a fairer news source.

Editors will hire almost anyone nowadays it seems. Back in my day, you were a student of journalism, where you got more than just how to get and write a story, but all the ethical stuff as well.

With most young people (under 30, usually) using their computers and phones to write, they have gotten way too used to quick, simple sentences, abbreviations, and no elegance in their work. I suppose it's just going to continue that way into the future, as the language us simplified, and the reading comprehension diminishes. I sincerely hope that along the way, we don't lose the writers who, down through history, inspired, elated, awed so many of us and contributed to our love of reading.

Recently, I heard my nephew say he never read. That kind of scared me. My niece also made that omission, and I was shocked to hear that. I know there are many who use all the techie stuff and never find wanting more in their lives, but not reading, at least something basic, frightens me.

[Rabrrrrrr]

81. I agree with you - the more conservative a paper (or magazine or whatever), the worse the grammar

and the worse the writing overall.

But then, conservatism (rightwinger freeper type, that is) is a result of a faulty brain and a fear of education, and so it stands to reason that liberal publications would be better edited and more lucid.

The conservative ones will be better funded and have more readers; the liberal ones will be better written, and read by few.

[ashling]

82. Try to teach a history survey course to

a group of entering Freshman who are plannin to go into physical Therapy and Nursing. One of the professors here got a paper entirely or largely in txt mssg style.

as to your point about papers, unfortunately I have seen poor grammar in the Washington Post, New York Times and others of their stature.

[hvn_nbr_2]

27. Serial: every now and then, it's clearer

Typically, it's clearer when one or more of the elements in the list is itself a compound element. Which of each of these pairs is clearer and more sensible?

My favorite breakfasts are oatmeal, Rice Krispies, and ham and eggs.
My favorite breakfasts are oatmeal, Rice Krispies and ham and eggs.

My favorite breakfasts are French toast, cereal and milk, and ham and eggs.
My favorite breakfasts are French toast, cereal and milk and ham and eggs.

Some subjects of children's stories are fairies, green eggs and ham, and lions and tigers and bears, oh my.
Some subjects of children's stories are fairies, green eggs and ham and lions and tigers and bears, oh my.

[Oeditpus Rex]

34. There are cases in which it's necessary for clarity

That doesn't mean it should be inserted before every garden-variety "and."

[Hosnon]

46. I believe that we may be the lone wolves in this thread.

The fact that the serial comma is needed sometimes, even most times, does not mean that it is needed all times.

[ashling]

62. its not needed if you are intentionally

grouping the last two items in the series. Otherwise it is necessary to fulfill your intention that they are equal members of the series.

[laconicsax]

30. You need those commas, I'm super serial!

[MadAsHellNewYorker]

36. For a list of three things, its not necessarly needed.

For a list of more then three things, it is.

[Oeditpus Rex]

37. You mean like

lions, tigers, bears, antelopes, hippopotamuses, rhinoceroses, stoats, goats, old gnus and rabbits?



:D

[MadAsHellNewYorker]

48. ummmm sure

:rofl:

:hi:

[RetroLounge]

93. old gnus is good gnus

:hi:

RL

[GreenPartyVoter]

38. I am queen of the comma splice

[swag]

39. Oxford comma rules. It's like a law-abiding turn signal 100 ft. before an intersection.

Long may its fountain sputter.

[hippywife]

40. Eats shoots and leaves.

That's why they wrote the book, I suppose. :shrug:

I voted for #1.

[triguy46]

41. Hm. Since commas are there to tell you when to breath...

too many could cause you to hyperventilate.

[laconicsax]

90. Commas do not exist to "tell you when to breath(sic)."

[S n o w b a l l]

42. Nay

I learned more punctuation in stenographers class than English, but no...no serial commas.

[lizerdbits]

43. I had to pick Yay

since that's how I was instructed in elementary school. I started noticing when I didn't see it after the second of three (lions, tigers and bears). I wondered if the standard had changed. Funny that I remember little things like that since I otherwise tend to have shitty grammar and horrible spelling (failed who/whom quiz every year). I guess it was (is?) my short attention span- a few things stuck and a lot didn't.

[Hosnon]

44. It depends on the list...God forbid we have to use our judgment.

If there is absolutely no possibility of any confusion as to where the items in the list end and begin, no comma is needed before the "and".

Example:

Pat, Sam and Matt went to the store.
(Three individual friends)

Pat, Sam and Kristen, and Matt went to the store.
(Two individual friends and a couple)

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

47. I tend to leave it out...

unless leaving it out can make the meaning of the sentence unclear.

John, Paul and Mary are flying to Miami for the weekend.
John, Paul, and Mary are flying to Miami for the weekend.

[LSdemocrat]

49. Yes. To me, a lack of a comma between the penultimate and last elements implies an added connection

[Iris]

73. That's what I wanted to say.

Except I wouldn't have used the word "penultimate"!

Nice explanation!

[Mugu]

51. I punctuate like I speak, weird. n/t

[Arugula Latte]

52. I go out for ceviche, postitos, and a mango margarita and I come back

and the serial comma thread is still going?

:rofl:

Who knew there was such interest in the subject?

(Note I my use of the serial comma in the subject line ;) )

[JVS]

54. It's essential.

Read why here

[Guaranteed]

56. Somehow I knew I would be educated by that link. nt

[ghostsofgiants]

105. JVS wins the thread.

[ashling]

55. This has been put to rest already!

Why are you tearing our party apart by bringing it up now?!!!
:rofl:

[Arugula Latte]

58. You know, I actually just realized that the serial comma issue has not been vetted thoroughly!

What if something pops up right before the punctuation election? What then, huh?

Better to get it all out in the open now so the American People can decide. But NOOOO, apologists like you want to sweep it all under the rug and pretend it's not really that important. Well, maybe it's not important to an elitist such as yourself, but I can guarantee you, my relatives in Buttscratch, Missouri would beg to differ when they talk about it over tatertot casserole at their church potluck!!!

[ashling]

63. Let's leave religion out of this.

Just keep it between you, your relatives, Buttscratch, and Missouri. OK?

[Arugula Latte]

64. Look, I know you want this to just go away, but it's out there for good.

Fox and Friends ran a damning loop about it over and over this morning, and even my local news did a segment today. Also, I've heard that a colorful pie chart about Americans' serial comma preference is going to appear in USA Today tomorrow.

[ashling]

66. To truth, justice, and the serial comma! and if that's not good enough

[zanne]

69. `GAH! Now you've gone and done it!

Resorting to diagramming is the lowest form of grammar extremism.

[zanne]

68. Question for grammar geeks...

When using parentheses or quotation marks, where does the period, question mark or exclamation point go--inside the quotation marks or parentheses, or out? Ex. (blah, blah). OR (blah, blah.) Ex. "blah, blah". OR "blah, blah."

[Rabrrrrrr]

72. That partly depends on the country in which one is writing.

And also how the parenthetical is functioning within the sentence.

[zanne]

74. GAH!

Okay; here's an example. (I don't know if this example is the best, but it's all I can come up with right now)

And this; I hate it when store clerks say "I don't know. I'll ask the manager"

[nuxvomica]

75. It depends on whether it's a sentence

Some examples:

She said "My candidate is the best and your candidate is the worst."
She said that her candidate was the "best" and that my candidate was the "worst".
I said "She said that her candidate was the 'best' and that my candidate was the 'worst'."

She said that the best candidate was her candidate (Hillary Clinton).
We argued all night about our respective candidates. (Her candidate was Hillary Clinton.)
I said "We argued all night about our respective candidates. (Her candidate was Hillary Clinton.)"

[Rabrrrrrr]

77. Here's Rabrrrrrr's proposed mathematical style of piling up punctuation:

I've always been bothered that punctuation at the end of a sentence has to be condensed into one - the mathematician in me wants total symmetry.

And so, for example, your last sentence:

I said "She said that her candidate was the 'best' and that my candidate was the 'worst'."

Let's play with it a bit and directly quote the female, to give us:

I said, "She said, 'My candidate is the "best" and your candidate is the "worst"'."

And now, in Rabrrrrrr's preferred mathematically coherent system, it becomes:

I said, "She said, 'My candidate is the "best" and your candidate is the "worst".'.".

And to get even more convoluted, let's make the last thing a question:

Did Steve say, "Helen shouted, 'Ernie said, "Dave asked, 'Is my candidate the "best" and your candidate the "worst" (ALL THREE!)?'."!'?"

Which in Britain would be:

Did Steve say, "Helen shouted, 'Ernie said, "Dave asked, 'Is my candidate the "best" and your candidate the "worst" (ALL THREE!)'?".'!"?


Sadly, in "proper" grammar, it would end up as boring old:

Did Steve say, "Helen shouted, 'Ernie said, "Dave asked, 'Is my candidate the "best" and your candidate the "worst" (ALL THREE!)?'"'"

[zanne]

79. Why are you torturing me?

[Oeditpus Rex]

87. An editor worth his or her green eye-shade

would recast such a cocked-up sentence to spare readers the inevitable brain tumors.

The only legitimate question is whether to recast the sentence before or after breaking the writer's fingers.

[Rabrrrrrr]

89. But, from a mathematical/alogrithmic perspective, it's the most efficient way to phrase it.

To write it without needing all the extra punctuation would require the use of far more words (and therefore more characters) than it uses now.

It's almost tear-causing in its condensed perfection. (and here, I'm not talking about the bizarre punctuation I used; just the density and efficiency of the sentence itself).

:hi:

Hard to read, though. And, from a prose/artistic perspective, ugly.

[zanne]

78. Thank you. That helps. nt

[Lyric]

70. It depends on the context.

If I'm writing a paper for a class that requires MLA style, then yes. If I happen to be writing an article for the student paper that requires AP style, then no. :hi:

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

76. Paper or monitor?

Commas can cause/cure global warming.

On paper, the extra comma uses more ink or toner, increasing its carbon footprint.

On a monitor, the extra comma leaves more LEDs dark, reducing its carbon footprint.

Think of the ice caps, icebergs, and glaciers.

Or penguins, walruses, and polar bears.

I try not to print stuff, so extra commas are good, in my, humble, opinion.

:hi:

[Rabrrrrrr]

86. Kicking because you all need to --

read this post: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x7588848#7591012

[Silver Swan]

88. The US Government Style Manual says:

The comma is used....

8.42. After each member within a series of three or more
words, phrases, letters, or figures used with and, or, or nor.

red, white, and blue
horses, mules, and cattle; but horses and mules and
cattle
by the bolt, by the yard, or in remnants
a, b, and c
neither snow, rain, nor heat
2 days, 3 hours, and 4 minutes (series); but 70 years 11
months 6 days (age)



BTW, Did you even know there was a US Government style manual? I knew because I worked for the Feds, and did a stint reviewing other employees' writing. This did not, of course, make me a grammar expert.

[miss_american_pie]

92. Elements of Style

considers the Oxford comma proper usage.

I'll take Strunk over AP any day. ;)

[RetroLounge]

94. Yeah, well, you my dear are a most evil editor...

I got your Oxford comma right here...

:loveya:

RL

[miss_american_pie]

95. Since you were home all day

Where's my outline?

[RetroLounge]

96. Oh, and a brutal taskmaster too

FYI: I happened to be packing and moving my stuff into our future love nest.

:hi:

RL

[miss_american_pie]

97. Hmm...

Bet Kavalier and Clay didn't get written with lame excuses as that...

[RetroLounge]

98. That Hack!?!?

He tossed that book of tripe off over a long holiday weekend.

He even ignored the Oxford Comma...

RL

[miss_american_pie]

99. Those who can, do.

Those who can't, pack. :hi:

[SKKY]

100. What, is, your, deal? You, grammar, nazi!!!

[BlueIris]

101. Serial comma ALL THE WAY.

[Ediacara]

102. Leaving it out implies "Tigers and Bears" could be a single group

It's essential to long lists with complicated components.

[skygazer]

103. I prefer cereal commas

They stay cruncy in milk. :9

[KamaAina]

104. I've always associated the serial comma with legal writing

hence, normally don't use it myself.

On a lighter note, this is on the verge of becoming a full-on flamewar, which would be scaling heights unimagined even in GD-P. I mean, really, a flamewar over commas?!

edit: note to self: self, check header spelling when posting about grammar :dunce:

[reality211]

106. Using serial comma avoids confusion

It keeps the sentence from being confusing, as in the tiger, lions, etc. example you cited.