Women attracted to disfunctional guys

[chookie]

I am soliciting input on a matter that has arisen concerning a woman I know, who is attracted to creeps and turns away nice guys.

She's in her 40s, and one of those people who feel they HAVE to be married. Very nice woman, also nice looking.

I don't know her too well, as I just moved into the area, but from my sister, who is a very good friend of hers, she always seems to be riding on a roller coaster of disfunctional relationships. She always is involved with abusive guys, trashy guys, ex-cons -- and predictably, they treat her rotten and things end up badly.

I was astonished to hear that she had begun dating a man of my acquaintance, who had struck me as a really good "catch." He is incredibly charming, generous, well-mannered, owns his own very successful business, is bright, seems very nice, and even has civic consciousness, being involved for years in projects that help the community. WOW! What a change from the riffraff she is usually gets involved with.

I heard about her dates with him, and obviously this guys knows all the tricks about being a charming date. He also really really really likes her.

Imagine my bewilderment when she announced that she didn't want to see him any more, because there was "no chemistry."

As we speak frankly about these matters, I suggested to her that perhaps the reason there was no "chemistry" is the fact that she seems to be attracted to "guys with issues", and that a nice normal guy just doesn't show up on her radar screen of love. She thought about it, and said that it sounded as though it was true. I told her to do whatever she wanted, but not to write off this very nice man without giving some thought to why nice, successful, sane men bore her.

She went on to say that he had a potbelly, and she just couldn't deal with that. (Admittedly, he must have gotten fatter since I saw him last). But if she writes off men with potbellies, that eliminates about 93.25% of available men in the greater Pittsburgh area.

The decision is hers to make - hey whatever. But the question I am asking here is, and it is a VERY stupid one, admittedly: should a woman write off a very good "catch" on the basis of his having a potbelly? Is a lean redneck ex-con to be preferred to a very nice guy with a slight weight problem?

[GOPisEvil]

1. I'm very interested to hear responses on this...

...I'm like "the guy" in this story. Someone 'splain it to me too...I'm confused by this behavior.

[supernova]

20. Attracted to drama

Sounds like she's attracted to the drama of highly tense relationships. That "there's no chemistry" part is especially telling. For all her protestations, she actually enjoys the rollercoster.

She may also be very uncomfortable with her own company. People who go from relationship to relationship tend to fear being alone. Thus they just latch on to whomever presents himself. And the more bombastic guys tend to get to most attention.

It's more healthy to find someone who is comfortable with themselves. They won't constantly look to you as a source of entertainment, but will look to give you something when you do spend time together. And healthy attractions quite often tend to develop over time.

Disclaimer: The above is equally true for men about women.

[GOPisEvil]

25. "Disclaimer: The above is equally true for men about women. "

Very true. I have zero problem being alone. Being an only child cures one of that. I can be very entertaining to myself. :silly:

[TXlib]

28. Being entertaining to oneself...

NO SEX THREADS!

[supernova]

30. "Entertainment"

yes, I'm familiar with that "entertainment" of myself. :silly: Luckily I've "entertained" myself many times. Otherwise, I'd just be a nun. :P

It's hard because these drama people seem so interesting and exciting when you first meet them. Then overtime the excitment becomes resentment and you wonder why they can't leave you alone to read book or take a bath. *pointing at myself*

[GOPisEvil]

32. Heh...not just "that" entertainment either.

I actually can stand just being by myself...I like when someone doesn't get freaked out by my wanting to be alone periodically.

Now as to "that" entertainment...I don't want to be a monk. They get lousy haircuts. ;-)

[supernova]

34. Oh sure

I spend a lot of time alone. Always have, sometimes simply by necessity (see the Allen's scars thread).

Actually, I never thought I'd reach the limits of alone time, but I have. I'm officially sick of my own company 24/7.

I'm about a 50/50 person I guess. I'd be very happy to have someone's company now. But I'd still want to read a book, or go to a museum. Things that not all guys like to do. And I could just as well be happy if he wanted to spend some time doing certain things that I don't do.

[GOPisEvil]

36. I've never been a "joined at the hip" kind of person.

I want someone who enjoys some of the things I like while maintaining her own interests and friendships. I don't like to feel needed - just wanted. :-)

[supernova]

47. I definitely want someone

in my life. We don't have to be glued together, but I want the company.

As for needing, sometimes you do need someone. At least I would like to. Life is pretty harsh sometimes, and I've survived plenty of things alone. I kinda don't want to do that part of it alone anymore. Not that I'm looking for problems, but just that I'm tired of facing battles (when they do come up) alone. I sometimes feel like Sissyphus.

[GOPisEvil]

49. The other part of the Sissyphean struggle...

...you have no one to really share the good things with as well. When I got my last promotion (almost 4 years ago - yikes!), my parents were happy, and my friends were happy. But, when I got home, I just sorta sat there and said, "Well, I guess that's that. Whoopee for me."

[JVS]

37. Don't knock the monk haircut. It's making a comeback!

[supernova]

40. Tonsures R Us

Do you have a tonsure JVS?

[JVS]

41. Not at this time, but I'm thinking of getting one when spring comes

Until then I need all of my glorious white-man's Afro to sheild my head from the cold

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

2. Remember what Grandpa Simpson said?

"I'm finally rich enough to get myself a crazy stripper wife and I'm gonna get me the craziest stippiest one of them all."

[Bluzmann57]

3. Well as a man with a pot belly

It seems that the woman in question is just shallow, and thats sad. My wife is a beautiful woman and I feel damn lucky to have her. Good thing she wasn't repelled by a bald, pot bellied guy with a blue collar job. I wish that woman good luck, sounds like she's going to need it.

[Kamika]

4. Was he really a good catch??

If he was such a good catch..

Howcome he was single??

HMMMMMMMMM?

[chookie]

10. Good question

I don't know. We did discuss this point.

It may be his profession that freaks people out -- he is a funeral director, following in his Dad's footsteps. That's how I met him -- because he took care of my mother's final arrangements. He is not the archetypal creepy funeral director -- he was just great. No phoniness, no hype, no weirdness -- just evenness and courtesy.

Mind you, I used to work in a museum, studied anatomy, and had to handle dead bodies all the time, and was friends with forensic anthropologists there, where murder victims were examined -- so none of this stuff has any horror for me. Most people would faint or throw up if they ever overheard the stuff we used to deal with and talk about, but it was the nature of the science we did.

I have gotten to know a couple funeral directors, and found them to be very cool people. They all really liked me, because I am someone they can talk with about what they do, and I don't get weirded out -- and people in professions like this have very few outlets to talk about their work, which they tend to feel passionate about.

[Kamika]

22. hehe ok

I just joked though.. he sounds like a catch

[PVnRT]

5. Chicks dig jerks

as Bill Hicks was truthfully said.

[JitterbugPerfume]

8. some advice

MYOB

[chookie]

12. I think I am, actually

I am not telling her what to do. I just gave her something to think about. What she does is her own business, and as far as I am concerned, the subject is closed, and I will never say another word on the subject. You're right -- it's not my business. Even I know that. :-)

Interestingly enough, *she* obsesses over another friend of hers, who is involved with a fat ignorant redneck rightwing creep. *She* took it upon herself to ask this other woman if she was doing okay, and if she needed help getting out of the somewhat abusive relationship. This woman took it as it was intended, and just said, yeah, you're right, but that's how things are and this is okay with me. Whatever. Then the matter was dropped.

It's not like there's brainwashing or evangelizing going on -- just a quick "check" and retreat.

[Greylady]

6. Why does he want her?

Wouldn't some equally nice, slightly overweight woman be a better choice for him? My husband has a pot belly and I don't even notice it unless he says something about it. To a normal woman, a pleasant personality matters more than looks do.

[afraid_of_the_dark]

7. There's some people that just crave drama...

and she sounds like one of them. An emotional rollercoaster - up one second, and down the next. It's her life, and if she keeps pursuing this, she's going to end up completely miserable. And I feel sorry for all the nice guys she hurts along the way. I just hope they keep being nice guys... there are some who really appreciate that in a man. REALLY. :)

[mac56]

9. We call this person a "trauma mama".

nm

[GoddessOfGuinness]

11. It's a good question for men, too...

I know men who agonize over their love lives to me, then speak fondly about some wonderful woman "friend" who adores them. But they can never reciprocate love for their "friend" because she's overweight or dies her hair "screaming red" or some similar BS. They always like the fact that she adores them, though.

I suspect many people become married to their notions of what makes a perfect relationship, the most prevalent ones being easily visualized, like physical characteristics. Of course, personality characteristics aren't fully realized until a good deal of time has passed. It's tempting and all too easy to fantasize that a potential partner matches the ideal notion. When it turns out that they don't, it's often too heartbreaking to let go of the fantasy.

[TrogL]

13. Women tend to "marry their fathers"

so to speak, either finding someone as close as possible to their father, or if in rebellion (or denial) finding the exact opposite.

[chookie]

16. Bingo

You will not be shocked to hear that she comes from a disfunctional family.

People born into such families have to learn to put up with a lot of shit in order to survive, and grow into adults with way too high a tolerance for bullshit. Having limited experience with well-adjusted people, they find them invisible.

[jus_the_facts]

19. Yep....I agree with you!

......and to be truthfully honest....this classification of *dysfunction* just kills me....who decided what is considered *functional* in human relationships anyway....afterall we're all just glorified ANIMALS and that should be taught and accepted as THE basis for all our actions/emotions IMO! :)

[never cry wolf]

46. Yup

My best friend had an alcoholic father that sexually abused her. We dated off and on for 8 years but I was a "nice" guy. She ended up marrying a physically abusive druggie and after a couple of years left him and ended up with an alcoholic mental abuser, whom she is still with.

Her friends used to give advice to potential boyfriends who would ask, "What's with her, how do I make any headway?" Their response was to treat her like shit.

She now says she is over this and realizes she was attracted to assholes and it won't happen again, but she stays in a bad marriage and I have my doubts she will leave.

[Westegg]

14. A bunch of questions for this single lady...

For starters, she's in her forties and really wants to be married? Why isn't she? Is she divorced? Widowed? Someone who "really wants to be married" (male or female) usually finds a way to get there.
So maybe she's been dating "bad boys" since she was a teenager. If so, she shouldn't be surprised to be where she is. "Bad boys" don't like to settle down. The one good thing about "bad boys" (and I know, because I used to be one): They're pretty up-front about what they want, and don't want, and any woman with half a brain and a little experience (say, 40 years' worth) should be able to read those signals, or at least have the maturity and wisdom to put her cards on the table and say what she wants.

I happen to have been born and raised in Pittsburgh. I've lived my adult life in L.A. and NYC, but I return home a couple times a year, and I have to say that there are many attractive, successful non-pot-bellied men in the area. Bu it sounds to me like this woman is holding on to the fantasy that she is still 24, and waiting for the six-pack-endowed 30-year-old (abs, not beer) to come along and sweep her off her feet. Doesn't she realize that most single men in their 40s, if they've lasted this long without marriage, or even if they're divorced, are looking for a tight and exciting 30-year-old?

Gee, she may have to compromise. Big deal. Oh yeah----I suggest therapy for her. Sounds like she's got some intimacy issues.

[chookie]

26. I don't think she gets it

She's never been married.

She is one of those poor fool "nurturing" types who adopt bad boys who tell sad stories, who tries to help them. A mother to adult men.

In order to "be loved" she feels she is obliged to be treated badly. Also has some very serious "boundary" issues. Doesn't have the sense to want to be treated decently -- only has developed the sense to not want a guy with a potbelly. :shrug:

I agree -- this is a person who would greatly benefit from therapy, but it is not appropriate for me to make such a suggestion.

The sad thing about people who make the same mistake over and over and over and over and over and over again is that they just don't get the part about "choice." Emotionally well-adjusted people make choices -- emotionally not-well-adjusted people have no idea that this is an option for them, and that there is another way to go. It's sad. My motive in raising the question with the about possibility that nice guys are invisible to her was to get her to think about changing her ancient pattern of behavior.

I'm not really interested in a campaign of "reforming" her -- I just wanted to give her a little nugget to think about *while* she is in a position to make a choice.

I've not brought this up as a topic to ask "What can I do to help her?" but rather to discuss this kind of behavior in a general way.

[Westegg]

45. Okay then. This behavior is quite common...

In women, it generally goes back to their relationships with their fathers. This woman's like a drunk or drug addict---only she can change her ways, and she can' t do that until she hits bottom. Which she may never do.

I'm assuming you have your own life to live so, based on what you've said, I suggest you go live it.

"Let the dead bury the dead," as Jesus said.

[cally]

15. Two things...what seems like an attractive man to

a heterosexual man is not the same thing that attracts women. I know that some women are attracted to Bozos, but many are attracted to different parts of their personality. It's not as ridiculous as it seems. So you see him as honest, hardworking, mature, a great guy in sports, but we may see a man absorbed in his work, hangs out too much with the guys, and too set in his ways. I guess it all depends on the indivuals and their own experiences. I don't think you can claim any one sex behaves a certain way.

One experience I had that may have shaded my opinion. I had/was interested in a fellow college classmate. We attended parties where other classmates hit on me but I was holding out for him. Finally we went on a date. Absolute disaster. No chemistry but I still wished for a better outcome. Years later we remet in graduate school. Both of us were now in long term relationships. I finally just asked what happened. :shrug: It always made me wonder why he never made a pass or acted in any way interested but kept asking me out. I said no after one or two dates because he didn't seem that interested. He said he was too shy and thought he was being respectful. :shrug: I don't know what really happened about that, but I do think that too many nice guys are afraid to show their sexual attraction to a date.

[pink_poodle]

24. Nah, I think women are just like men and we are attracted to..........

how they look and then later, to how they think, etc. That guy with the pot belly probably did not have it before he got married. Let's face it.

This woman sounds pretty shallow and messed up. There are lots of people out there, both male and female, just like her. She still thinks she is in her 20's and just like those immature men like her, she still thinks that she can still get the pretty boys who are wild. She will have an awakening some day. There are guys who still think they are a "catch" but have not clued in that their hair is a bit thinner and their waist line is a bit wider and it is starting to show.

Best thing is for folks just to take a long hard look at who is around them in the same age bracket, and figure out that they are probably a LOT like those folks that they are trying so hard not to be. They are just the same as everyone else, but their minds are still lying to them. Sort of pathetic really.

And what is really stooopid is, that there are a lot of people in their 40's who are fabulous looking - both men and women - who have really not let themselves go and who sparkle with confidence and elegance. She is missing the boat.

[KG]

17. well, of course the pot belly ain't really the issue

some women only dig the drama of a 'bad boy'

[geniph]

18. What a weird criterion

potbellies can come and go...assholeness lasts forever.

For the record, I'm a female who's never been attracted to jerks and never had a relationship with one that lasted past my discovering he was a jerk.

I imagine she must be physical perfection herself, if she's that judgemental? No? Well, imagine that - hypocrisy!

People who seek out chaos and abuse in their lives (and men do it too - some men actually can't live without a bitchy woman in their lives) puzzle the hell out of me.

[chookie]

35. I learned this the hard way!

There was a porky grad student who was crazy over me. He was a great guy -- so much fun. We used to go out as friends and always had a blast. He found out that I had a crush on some emotionally unavailable guy, and freaked out. "What the HELL is WRONG with women????"

He went off to finish his PhD at an Ivy League school. He achieved highest honors. As a young man, he skyrocketed to the top of his profession.

When I saw him after he returned to town, I was astonished at what a magnificent man he turned out to be. His natural charm and humor were all still there, but he had been polished into a diamond of intellect. To hear him speak, or converse with him was thrilling.

Boy -- did I feel stupid not to have seen him on the radar screen of love.

He brought his wife back to meet up. She was a troll -- silent, sullen, inarticulate.

Eventually she got tired of being married to the rising star of his field of science because he was not earning enough for her, and spending too much time away doing research, and she made him get a job with a corporation.

Those of us who recognized his achievements as a scientist and who saw him as the rising star that he was were devastated. But he chose the love of this woman over the love of his profession.

The funny thing is that as a high-achieving type myself, I am supportive of other high-achieving types and would never think of "domesticating" one, and if I had had the sense to hook up with him, theoretically things might have worked out optimally for both of us. But alas, I was too shallow and stupid. Not that I obsess over this or anything. When you do something stupid, best not to let it bug you too much, but it was a very loud wake-up call concerning my criteria for selecting mates, and I learned well from it.

[JVS]

21. How many times has she been married?

[chookie]

29. Zip

Nulla.
Nada.
Nyet.

It is a bit strange, because there is a species of redneck asshole ex-con who love to rush into horrible marriages.

It's kind of a good thing she's never married any of these SOBs -- breaking up is hard enough, but I hear divorce is even nastier.

[JVS]

33. "one of those people who feel they HAVE to be married"

I read that as she bounces from one marraige to another

[MissMillie]

23. I'm attracted to emotionally unavailable guys

but I'd take a pleasantly plump nice guy over a red-neck ex-con any day.

[pink_poodle]

27. An interesting side to your story.........................................

Opposite sexes this time:

My ex-hubby and I drifted apart and then he wanted a divorce because he went off to marry a stripper!!!! ROTFLOL! Anyway, she died having plastic surgery session number 6 and he of course just used this as an excuse to dwell in self pity and drink and act like an asshole but not be held accountable for his action. Suffice it to say that he is a real low life, very over weight, depresseed, broke all the time, and so are all the "friends who are like his brothers" that he chose at the time. Meanwhile all these years, myself and my friends all went on to become successful in business and in life, all owning houses and well established who go to theatres, dinner parties and vacations every year - living the life, so to speak.

In a nut shell, he thought I was too "square" and went off to be with "cool" people and they are all a bunch of welfare bums - the whole stinking schene that I detest and I took the other path (the high road) and refused to ever become a low life. And yes, I have been totally broke at times in my life, but just didn't succumb to stripping, boozing, etc.....

(fixed a couple of typos)

So people basically CHOOSE to be who they are in life. You can choose who to be with and who you want to be. If you aspire to be a lowlife, then it is not much of a challenge to do so. If you want to be with people like that, there are no shortages out there.

Fine, it leaves more for the "material girls" like me. grin.

[chookie]

42. I have seen this too!

I know two women who divorced the controlling jerks they endured for many years. One of the things that kept them in these marriages was the fact that their husbands had systematically destroyed their self-esteem over the years -- helps to keep the old lady around.

One went through a particularly ugly and difficult divorce. Her husband had been furious when she made her decision, saying no one is going to believe you when you say I am not a good person (in fact we all knew he was a total asshole), and NO ONE is ever going to want you again!

Ha ha -- both women emerged from their divorces and began exciting, successful, happy new lives -- new jobs, new houses, new boyfriends, etc etc etc.

Their jerk husbands did not fare as well -- kind of joined the Tribe of Lost Boys and can't figure out why no women want anything to do with them.

Good for you!!

[pink_poodle]

44. Yes, once you clue it to these people, you never make the.............

same mistake twice. Sounds like your friend though is either stuck in a rut or has extremely low ambitions and does not aspire to break out of it. The only thing that will change her, if she ever does change, will be if she wants to. But I think she should have tried at least 15+ years ago as it is a bit late now.

Good luck!!

[rucky]

31. sounds like low self-esteem

n/t

[tom_paine]

38. "Every woman loves a fascist...the boot in the face"

--Sylvia Plath "The Bell Jar"

Now, I disagree with seterotypes, and clearly there are numerous strong women who aren't in this situation but I don't think there's any doubt (and I've heard this from guy friends and gal friends both) there is a sizable minority, if not a majority, of women to whom that Plath statement is essentially correct.

It's the "bad boy" syndrome and it is prevalent.

Who knows why it is? I think some of it is environmentally evolutionary, back from the hair-pulling cavemen days and some of it is reinforced by the Culture, which at every turn reviles decent human beings, painting them out to be saps and suckers and no one you;d want to procreate with.

But is exists. There is more than a grain of truth to what Sylvia Plath said.

[camero]

39. Definition of insanity

Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. Maybe it doesn't give you advice but it might be something to tell her.

Frankly I just think she's so used to those situations that she's comfortable with them.

[populistmom]

43. I've never had this problem

I tend to be one woman who actually likes the proverbial nice guy. Before my husband was involved with me, he was a guy that always seemed to be every woman's rebound guy- one who would listen to them, they'd use him, and then go back to abusive boyfriends. Even now, despite certain differences, I would say overall, he's more of a nice guy than not, but he has a lot of childhood-type pain inside him perhaps that keeps resurfacing (and will until he deals with it). My prior boyfriends were all pretty decent types as well. Sometimes though, it seems I tend to go for guys that can even be considered "too nice" in some ways, but that's my curse.

[amazona]

48. the weight issue

Everyone else has addressed her possible psychiatric dysfunctions, so I will step very carefully and address this question:

should a woman write off a very good "catch" on the basis of his having a potbelly? Is a lean redneck ex-con to be preferred to a very nice guy with a slight weight problem?

The truth is that no amount of therapy can change what physical type you are attracted to. If you are gay, or if you have a specific fetish, you already know this. But let me repeat myself, since some people don't seem to understand that a straight woman can also have a very strong sexual preference that cannot be changed. More women than most men realize are not and cannot be sexually attracted to a man with a pot belly. A man who looks pregnant is not an object of sexual desire for those women. It doesn't matter how wonderful the man is. It would be like a lesbian trying to pretend that she's sexually excited by a man. It just isn't going to happen. If this is your friend's issue, she cannot change, and therapy will not change her preference. It is true that some drug addicts and also some die-hard tobacco smokers are significantly leaner than healthier middle-aged men. So this may play a part in her attraction to drug addicts; by God, they're unhealthy and they're abusive, but by Jeebus, they're thin. You say she is in her 40s, well, I am in that age group, and I can tell you that our programming during our coming of age was very much to be attracted to thin, flat-bellied, albeit sometimes unhealthy people. All advertising, all television, all music -- even the DOCTORS of the day claimed that to be 10 pounds underweight was to extend your life by 10 years (a lie, as the coming anorexia epidemic was to prove).

If your friend is in this age group, and she must have a slim, flat-bellied man, yes, pickings are going to slim unless she is wealthy enough to attract a much younger man. Failing that, her choice would be to either marry a man she is not attracted to sexually or to continue alone. I would prefer option number two, as the first option seems quite unfair. Doesn't your decent man deserve to find a woman who WILL be attracted to him? Or who at least couldn't give a flying about his pot belly?

She is being honest about her issues with physical attraction. It could be worse. She could be faking sexual passion that she doesn't feel just to trap a man into a loveless marriage. This way, the only life she is screwing up is her own.

Believe me, if I knew a way to remove this prejudice, I would bottle it. I'd make a fortune. Huge numbers of older women simply are not interested in their partner's love handles. Sexual love has a strong physical component not under our control.

I hope I have not offended too many people by my frankness. I'm sure your chubby friend is a fine man and will find someone more suited to him. I'm less hopeful for your woman friend -- I'm thinking because of the time she wasted on bad relationships earlier, that boat has sailed, and she should just learn to enjoy life on her own.

[Deja Q]

50. Well, I'm disfunctional and I'm a nice guy!

How come I'm eternally single?!

Of course, I'm gay and I have a bit of a belly... gay guys don't like that.

[latebloomer]

51. Been there, done that!

Throughout my 20s and much of my 30s, I was always attracted to the "bad boy"-- the rock 'n rollin, chemical abusing, emotionally unavailable, unfaithful, charismatic ones! I was always bemoaning the fact that all the men I got involved with were "afraid of intimacy".

Well, finally had the sense to go into therapy and realized that it was I who was afraid of intimacy! As an experiment, I allowed myself to date a couple of guys who were attractive but for whom I felt no "spark" because they were "too nice" and too available. Lo and behold, I then started to feel "smothered' and felt like running away!

With the therapist's help, I hung in there, worked thru my angst, and finally was able to settle down with a very warm and available man who had just enough of the "bad boy" in him to keep me interested. We've been married 13 years now.

But guess what helped turn the tide, when I was in "run away!" mode with future hubby! He revealed, after a month of dating, that he was seeing 2 other women. Like a cave woman I yelled, "MY man!" and the rest is history.

BTW, if your friend is at all open to it, I would recommend the book "Women Who Love Too Much", by Robin Norwood, which spells out this syndrome and how to overcome it.