Goth who walks fiancee on a leash is banned by bus driver who told him: 'No dogs allowed'

[emad]

A goth, who likes to take his fiancee out for a stroll on a leash, claims that a bus driver told them "no dogs allowed" and banned them from boarding.

Dani Graves, 25, and his girlfriend dress all in black and like to take unusual walks, but the pair have been branded "freaks" and pushed off buses.

He and Tasha Maltby, 19, were told they could not travel on the bus service and believe they have been targeted by the same driver three times.

Gothic Dani claims the driver said: "We don't let freaks and dogs like you on."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=509713&in_page_id=1770


Kinkyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

[Steerpike]

1. I don't get it.

They look normal to me.

[pitohui]

7. if you thought women were equal to men, it wouldn't look normal to you EOM

,

[LynzM]

78. I've seen plenty of women with leashed men

Kink goes both ways. :)

[Iris]

100. sometimes invisible ones at that.

or several under 3 ft. tall.

[Radio_Lady]

280. Have a good time reading the REST of the STORY and 90+ replies! I did!

"It is definitely discrimination, almost like a hate crime," 19-year-old Miss Maltby said yesterday. The music technology student had this defence of her lifestyle.

"I am a pet, I generally act animal like and I lead a really easy life," she said. "I don't cook or clean and I don't go anywhere without Dani. It might seem strange but it makes us both happy. It's my culture and my choice. It isn't hurting anyone."

The bus driver, however, has obviously not been listening. He has repeatedly refused to allow Mr Graves, 25, and his "pet" on to his bus in Dewsbury, West Yorkshire.

Last month, with Miss Maltby on a leash as usual, the couple tried to board a bus at the bus station. The driver, who was off duty, was standing near the door.

Mr Graves alleged: "He shoved me off the bus. He called us freaks and he called Tasha a dog. "He said, 'We don't let freaks and dogs like you on'.

"He basically grabbed my T-shirt and slammed me backwards. "I got a bit angry and called him a fascist pig."

In a separate incident, police were called when the driver, who has not been named, refused to allow other passengers on board after the couple ignored his orders and sat down.

The couple, who live on benefits in a council house and plan to start a family, have been friends for years.

They started going out together in July and became engaged in November.

Paul Adcock, of bus company Arriva Yorkshire, said: "We take any allegations of discrimination seriously.

"Mr Graves has already contacted us directly and as soon as our investigation has concluded we will inform him of the outcome."

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94 people have commented on this story so far. Tell us what you think below.

A 19 year old girl allows her boyfriend to walk her around in a collar and lead? Her parents must be so proud.

- Marianne, UK

If these allegations are true, the bus driver should be sacked. Intolerance has no place in modern-day Britain.

- Bob Roberts, UK

This is disgusting behaviour by the bus driver, it is outright discrimination. You cannot refuse public services to someone because you do not like their clothes. I hope the driver is sacked. This couple sound pretty odd, but there is nothing wrong with being odd. and it certainly shouldn't prevent you using a bus.

- Chris, Mirleft, Yorkshire

What an idiot bus driver, I can't stand these people who think they can do what they like as if the bus is their own. Their supposed to be providing a public service, but unfortunately there are many grumpy bus drivers.

- Peter, Amsterdam, Netherlands (Exile)

They wanted attention, they got it.

- Paul Cox, UK

More power to the driver! If thet can't behave in public then they should not be allowed to use public transport. Attention seekers both of them.

- David, Guildford, Surrey

They look like brother and sister.

- Anon, Surrey

These people look pleasant and fine.

- Epimethean, Surrey

What extraordinary behaviour by the bus driver. The customer is king and they pay his wages, he should rememember that. A better course of action would have been to politly tell them to take the leash off and then take their money for the fares. If they wouldn't obey, then kick them off the bus.

- Stella, Salisbury

This is absurd! She should have the collar on the lad.

- Fiama, Belmont, California, USA

What an ignorant man that bus driver is. He should be disciplined for pushing that poor girl. And to think, it is the passengers who pay his salary. Disgraceful.

- Zoe, West London

They'll grow up one day They'll look at these pictures and blush with embarassment. You're only young once and entitled to be silly.

- Robbo, Maidstone, UK

Sounds like this nasty little bus driver is petty bully. Shame on him for picking on a couple of young people.

- Sarah, France

What a pair of plonkers!

- Oldmisery, Warrington, UK

That girl's mother must be so proud.

- J Shapland, Taunton, Somerset

She is a bit of a dog, though, isn't she?

- Hazel Anne Larmour, Ballygowan, N. Ireland

Personally - I love their look.

- Maria, Harlow, UK

This pair look ridiculous! I'm not surprised the driver wouldn't let them board!

- Sarah, Glasgow

Save your leash for the bedroom, guys! No one else wants to see that! Funniest picture I've seen in a long time.

- Nicola, Ontario, Canada

Would this driver do the same to a gang of 'hoodies'?

- Oliver, Netherlands

Where's her coat? It's bloomin' freezing outside!

- Anita, Birmingham

I would have refused them access until they were no longer chained together - on safety grounds.

- Stuart, Plymouth

The bus driver is a bully and should be sacked, these are youngsters making their mark, their not hurting anyone.

- Jo, Spain

They aren't hurting anyone else are they? There are plenty of times that I've been on buses where there have been yobs getting on with alcohol and/or being abusive, but they are allowed on despite making others uncomfortable because the driver doesn't want the hassle.

Sounds to me as if this is yet another instance of someone in a minor position of power making life that bit more difficult for others when they need not to. Prejudice takes may forms.

- Sophie, Guildford, UK

Note please that the plods threatened the couple with action when they tried to assert their right to use public transport. No doubt the Chief Constable of West Yorkshire will ponder this when young people decline to help his force at some future point.

- Simon Perkins, Tadcaster, North Yorkshire

What idiots! What do they do when they go to work? Dress the same? Or don't they work? They would never get past a first stage interview dressed like this.

- S, Leicester

So the girl who gets walked on a lead demands equal opportunities on the bus. Regardless of whether the driver is right or wrong, this girl needs to get her priorities straight!

- Ab, Cheshire

Don't judge a book by its cover!

- Gerryd, Panama

There are some pretty damn nasty bus drivers around.

- Adam, Sheffield

If he was a gentleman goth, he would loan her his coat.

- John, United Kingdom

You didn't mention if Dani works?

- Maxine, Taipei, Taiwan

I think they are both brilliant. People should not be victimised by the way they dress, we are all entitled to express ourselves in whichever way we want.

Give that bus driver, who is, after all, a public servant, a good dressing down.

- Sandie Seward, Basildon U.K.

He looks like a work-shy scrounger to me, get a job and pay your way.

- Harry Basset, Whitby

I bet that bus driver would have no problem letting on a load of drunken, yobbish louts.

- Peter, Amsterdam, Netherlands (Exile)

It doesn't matter what Dani and Tasha look like that's their choice. Nobody deserves to be treated or insulted like that, the driver is a bully.

- Emma, Shrewsbury, Shropshire

It is not for a bus driver to dictate on fashion. The driver is obviously a intollerent oik.

- Clive Bagshaw, Chester

The bus driver is employed to drive the public about not to make judgement on their dress and lifestyle. If they are fee paying passengers he had no right to throw them off the bus. He was being petty and discriminatory.

- Sue G, Perth Scotland

Never mind walking the dog - with a figure like Tasha's she'll soon be on the catwalk.

- Sarah, Belgium

Has this country completely lost it's sense of humour?

- Davies, Cardiff, Wales

I'd rather have them on the bus with me than some of the feral youths that travel for free thanks to Livingstone's generosity.

- Joanna, London

Disgraceful. What harm are the couple causing?

- Sarah, Hove

They look ridiculous. But where is the regulation that states that people of look ridiculous can't travel on a bus? I'd sack the driver.

- David Bourke, Rochester, England

Dave, wake up. Nowehere in the article has it been said that the couple were misbehaving in anyway shape or form to warrant being kicked off a bus.

- S, Herts, England

I don't agree how this bus driver dealt with this, he let his own prejudices get in the way, but what is this girl thinking off to be led like that by her boyfriend?

- Shaz, Essex UK

I do think that driver is very much out of order.

- Phil, Chelmsford

Really funny.

- Ian Millard, Exeter UK

I have known some very nice goths because my son dabbled a bit in his teens and they were always welcome in our home. He's now a member of our armed forces, so think before you judge.

- Dorothy Quinlan, Philippines

Not big on pride or dignity is she? What a sad example of womankind.

- G Mac, Winchester

So what does it matter if they look like that, I know many goths and punks and they have been the nicest people - so this driver is a bigot.

- G;T;, Beligum

What a stupid man.

- Mark Rimmell, Marlow, U.K.

If they pay the fare to get on the bus, whats the problem what they look like. Just be glad he's not hiding weapons under the trench coat.

- Norm, Richmond, Va USA

Bus driver deserves a medal!

- Simon, Farnham, UK

What's all this blaming the bus driver? At least he works for a living. They should both get a job and buy a car if she wants to ride around looking like a dog, rather than trying to get press attention with a victim act. Make it an open-topped car and everyone could see the leash.

- Ken, London, England

"The couple, who live on benefits in a council house and plan to start a family, have been friends for years."

Does this mean that they are unemployed, living in free housing and getting welfare benefits? If they start a family, will they get addition benefits? Sounds like a good deal to me!

- Mike Nino, Anaheim, California

"I lead a really easy life," Of course she does, we are keeping her in the lifestyle she apparently likes. I presume I don't need to ask if she wears her collar and lead to job interviews!

- Elizabeth, Belfast

"What extraordinary behaviour by the bus driver. The customer is king and they pay his wages, he should rememember that."
- Stella, Salisbury

That is true but the bus driver has a job, pays tax and therefore contributes to their benefits lifestyle - they should remember that too.

- Andrew, Melbourne

What is wrong with people being individuals?
What is not deemed normal to you or the bus driver may be perfectly normal to them. I think the look works and if she wants to be his pet, I think it's kind of cute.

Bus drivers are so moody nowadays.

- Laura, London

"Not big on pride or dignity is she? What a sad example of womankind." -G Mac, Winchester

What, because she has the freedom to choose how she dresses and acts and uses that choice? Yes, very sad example. Perhaps you think it would be better if that chain was attached to the kitchen, where she clearly belongs in your blinkered opinion?

Bus driver = idiot. Those two have the freedom to be as they please, and he should respect that. As should others.

- Sian, Hull, England

Whether they are on benefits or not has nothing to do with this story. The bus driver isn't refusing to allow them on the bus because they are on benefits he is doing so because of their appearance.
If bus drivers prevented everyone on benefits from riding a bus they wouldn't have any customers left.

Although I personally think they look stupid they have a right to look and live as they choose. As the goth girl herself says they aren't hurting anyone.

The bus driver is clearly discrimnating against them based on their appearance there is no reason to prevent them riding on the bus.

- James Dewitt, Swansea, Wales

Ha ha ha. Someone get that girl some self respect.

- Rachael, Kent

I think no one has the right to judge others by the way they choose to live!
If Tasha is happy living this kind of lifestyle, fair play to her! How many people do you know, who get enjoyment out of doing something 'a little less ordinary' actually have the guts to make it public?
Why does society today brand things or people...that we do not understand, or are not used to seeing, as 'freaks'?
Granted, if both parties are physically able to work, then they should do so! But...their physical and mental health is not mentioned above and rightly so too, so until we have the full facts of the whole situation we shouldn't comment or judge them!
As for the bus driver...would he stop an OAP who had bladder/bowel problems...or a small child who had behaviour problems from getting on his bus? The answer is simply no because he knows it is discrimination and could possibly lose his job over it!
Freedom of speech, freedom of living, equal rights and all that!

- Dawn, Hertford, UK

Let me guess? They'll end up getting compensation from the bus company, the bus driver will face reprimands, he'll get penalised, lose his job, with all the ramifications this entails, and these two spongers will carry on choosing to live an 'alternate' lifestyle at our expense. Who gains? The spongers and the solicitors. As usual. What has this country become?

- David, Bath

I say good for the bus driver - no freaks allowed.

- Chris Elliot, Long Stratton, Norfolk, UK

Freeloaders and freaks expecting the rest of us to pay for their lazy, slothful, indulgent lifestyle and submit to their dysfunctional, sick outlook on life!


- Jasmine, London UK

Exactly how do these two get a Council house? Seems like the bus driver is the only one with any common sense around where they live.

- John, France

How can you claim to be an 'animal' or a 'pet' and then complain about someone treating you like one?

- Bob, Limassol, Cyprus

Why does the bus driver even care? Ooh, they look a bit weird - big deal. I'm sure it's not part of his job description to judge travellers on what they're wearing.

- Cerys, Swansea, UK

"I am a pet, I generally act animal like and I lead a really easy life," she said.
"I don't cook or clean and I don't go anywhere without Dani. It might seem strange but it makes us both happy. It's my culture and my choice. It isn't hurting anyone."

OK but please don't have kids, lady!


The bus driver, however, has obviously not been listening.

- Jp, London

Tash, Why are you letting him humiliate you like this? There`s life out there, live it.

- Carol, Swansea, Wales

What the bus driver did was out of order.
Sorry but it's discrimination based on his personal feelings.

It's public transport so anyone should be allowed on despite their appearance even if it may seem wierd to you.

The off duty bus driver is at fault, and he should have dealt with.

They might not be able to fire him as he was not on duty, but they can dock his pay maybe and give him a disciplinary.

- Koc, London

I didn't know there was a dress code for the bus, and since when were dogs banned from them? What about those old smelly people, the mentally ill, hooded youths, ipod and phone users, skinheads, loud-mouthed southerners, geordies...why are they not banned? Personally, I would like to see everybody barred from all public transport.

- Horneto, Dumfries

Absolutely shocking behaviour on the part of the bus driver. He should be sacked for that. It is just blatent bullying.

- Jennie, Trebanos, Wales

They seem to be perfectly reasonable young people! Maybe they are stuck on benefits because possible employers cannot see beyond their clothes too?

- Alison W, London, UK

She needs a decent coat. She looks cold!

- Clarty Mcclart, Newport

Live and let live but this couple are clearly scrounging good for nothings who need a hefty reality check. What kind of example are they going to set their children? "Mummy is a subservient fruitcake and Daddy is a benefit scrounge"
They should be neutered.

- Melanie, Dunfermline, Fife

They don't exactly look as if they are destined to be life's achievers.

On the other hand, could this possibly be the perfect products of the Nu-Lab education sytem?

- Bartman, London

I am glad that this fine young couple 'on benefits who live in a council house' are hoping to start a family at our expense as taxpayers...

- Amy, London

Sack the bus driver for discrimination and give his job to the lad so he is no longer on benefits and can raise a family by paying for it himself rather than getting more in benefits!

- Jonathan, Gloucestershire

Simon of Tadcaster, it states "In a separate incident, police were called when the driver, who has not been named, refused to allow other passengers on board after the couple ignored his orders and sat down." It doesn't mention 'that the plods threatened the couple with action when they tried to assert their right to use public transport' at all. In fact it doesn't say what the final outcome was and whether the couple used that bus to make their way home on.
The driver was out of order. He is employed to drive the bus, not abuse the passengers and like any professional he should keep his personal prejudices to himself when he is at work. He is an idiot. However, this couple obviously dress the way they do to attract attention. They must therefore accept that not all the attention they do attract is going to be positive. Mind you I know Dewsbury. You've got to do something to liven the place up a bit.

- Yvonne, London, UK

Dani Graves and his `pet' need to see a psychiatrist. They are living off the State but it would be worth the State paying the fee. Typical - he should get a proper job - she should leave him and get a life. Both are good cases for the Jeremy Kyle Show.

- Richard, Bideford

My wife has been walking me around the streets of Cardiff on a lead for ten years and we never have any problems. The old people love it and bus drivers too.

- Chest Rockwell, Cardiff, Wales

I don't care what they look like or how they parade about - it's the fact that my taxes are helping to pay for it that grieves me. They both look physically capable of work, so why are they on benefits?

- Gill, Gloucester, UK

Why is he rugged up for winter and she is walking around as if there is a heatwave?

- Alice Hunt, Lincoln

Why are they on benefits? They look perfectly fit and able to me. Perhaps they could set-up their own business and start walking dogs?

- T, England

What's the difference of what they look like, if they weren't causing any problems then the bus driver had no right to keep them from riding the bus. And I'm wondering if being unemployed means you can't ride the bus either, from the comments mentioned so far.

- Will, Stratford

I agree with the bus driver - no dogs allowed!

- Tatiana, London

Tasha darling, you have it all wrong, a male's place is on the end of a lead, they are the puppies of female supremacy.

- Karen, Blackpool

The driver should be retrained he obviously has no people skills. They are doing no harm to anyone, it's not my thing but I'd take my chances on a bus with them than some of the other youths of this country.

- Katie N, Widnes, Cheshire, UK

At some point they will grow up and - hopefully - get jobs in order to support themselves before having puppies at the taxpayers' expense.

- Alf, Northampton, England

How can parents explain to young children what these odd balls were doing. No way should they be allowed on a bus with children present. No wonder this country is going to the dogs.

- Maggie, Kenilworth

I've seen them walking round town and yes they do look a couple of oddballs but it's each to their own. They paid their fares so what's the problem. They let yobs on buses and people smelling of urine, which to me is more offensive than a lass in a collar.

- Shair, Dewsbury

Ask Dani if he wants a male pup.

- Malcolm, Blackpool

It's a sorry state of affairs when people are so quick to judge others, purely based on their appearance. The couple aren't affecting anyone, not hurting anyone. So they've adopted a less than conventional life choice, who are we to judge? What difference does it make to you if they live on benefits? The bus driver was an ignorant prejudiced fool.

- Jay Fitt, Brighton, England

These two are so stereo-typed. When is today's youth going to do something original? Talk about 'following the pack".

- Tom Best, London UK

[LostinVA]

282. You might want to edit your post -- it violates the four-paragraph copyright rule

[Radio_Lady]

297. Caught this too late... Sorry.

Should I alert on my own post? And if I blame it on my painkillers, I'll get clobbered... like last time...
What to do?

[Steerpike]

157. I'm so sorry.

I did not mean to imply that women should be subservient to men. Or that they are lesser in anyway. I do believe that women that are abused or marginalized should be given assistance that would lead them into safety and out of abusive relationships.
I just looked at the picture and saw two happy kids. Playing it for laughs and having a good time doing it.

[MrScorpio]

2. Goth Hate Crimes

Yes, they do exist!

[PittPoliSci]

149. usually people grow out of the picking on goths after high school.

but some assholes, well, they never grow up.

[Scout]

322. "usually people grow out of the picking on goths after high school."

usually people grow out of being goths after high school

but some assholes, well, they never grow up.

:shrug:

[Chovexani]

209. Yes, they do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophie_Lancaster

[TheWatcher]

323. Indeed they do.

[Deep13]

3. Well, if it's a public transit service...

...then I don't think it is the driver's decision.

[pitohui]

5. it should be a police matter

no man should be allowed to drag a woman around in public on a leash, plain and simple

no woman should be treated that way and any woman who thinks this is an OK way to be treated is in desperate need of mental health services

the bus driver should not have to fight this battle on his own

everyone on this route who has a daughter that she wants to see growing up in a world where women are considered equals has an interest in shutting down this crap

s/m games are for clubs or for your private dungeon

putting a woman on display and making her wear a leash in public crosses a line, and it should have legal consequences

the bus driver probably feels powerless and has no other way to show how he feels than to take these actions, me personally, i would not be so passive-aggressive, i'd be calling the police and reporting the abuse every time i saw it occur

what if we really believed that women were equal human beings?

it isn't about this dumb fuck wearing black, it's about him treating his own girlfriend as a dog, the woman he pretends to love


what do you think he does to her in private?

[LynneSin]

10. I don't think your rant is wrong but....

...there are some people who just like to live this way.

Ok, yeah, it could be a bit disturbing for young children who might not understand why this is happening, but do we know how the girlfriend feels about this. Perhaps it's something she enjoys?

[NashVegas]

120. Nothing Like People Who Exist to Make Rick Santorum Look Like He Knows What He's Talking About

I've read all about "safe, sane and consensual." Yay for rationalizations.

If it's passed beyond kink into lifestyle, it's not sane. It's degradation. Even willing it's still degradation.

Regardless of what gender is wearing the collar.

[Der Blaue Engel]

150. Well aren't you just the Great Arbiter of what's sane

:eyes:

I just love it when people decide such things for others.

Nothing like incredibly arrogant assumptions based on something you know nothing about.

[SteppingRazor]

11. I disagree.

Forcing a woman to wear a leash in public should have legal consequences.

But if two consenting adults want to do this in public, the police and the gov't should stay the hell out of their business -- provided, of course, that said behavior jibes with all local and state laws.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

17. you are assuming she was forced, what if she enjoys it? this is a serious question

in some BDSM relationships this sort of behaviour is requested by the slave, what if she wanted it?

[SteppingRazor]

23. No, the person I responded to is assuming that ... I think.

Read my post again, L.P., and my other posts in this thread. I'm actually defending this couple, not condemning them.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

25. gah! sorry. my bad, totally misread you.

sorry! :(

[SteppingRazor]

35. No worries. And also, I doubt this is really about BDSM.

It's probably more about "Ooooooo! Aren't we so nonconformist and Gothy?"

That said, to paraphrase Voltaire, I disapprove of what you wear, but I will defend to the death your right to wear it. :P

[LostinVA]

112. I think it's really about "Ooooooo! Aren't we so nonconformist and Gothy?" too

[Deep13]

177. No. I did not say any such thing. nt

[SteppingRazor]

184. Nor was I responding to you.

Check the subthread. I was responding to the person who responded to you.

Sheesh, between you and L.P., can anyone in the Lounge read? :P

[Deep13]

12. I'm not going to get hung-up on the voluntary behavior of others.

"what do you think he does to her in private?"

I don't know and neither do you. It is none of our business.

[Darth_Kitten]

116. Abuse is everybody's business.................

abuse should never be ignored......

[unpossibles]

227. but how do you know this is abuse

in fact, I would say it doesn't look like it at all, and that you are jumping to a false conclusion - one which these kids likely want you to jump to.

[Oeditpus Rex]

13. What they do in private is no one's business

In public, they're breaking no laws and should be left alone.

[Darth_Kitten]

118. Oh, they are not even aiming to be "left alone"

The douche-bag thinks he's something and the girlfriend needs to grab a backbone and a brain.

One or more of these parties just loves the attention. Come on.....

[Oeditpus Rex]

124. Amazing! You can tell all that from a photo?

Perhaps you can also tell us about these two:

[Darth_Kitten]

127. Human beings NOT being led on leashes don't tell much of a story....

n/t

[JVS]

176. Hitler moustace! Sexy!

An obvious sign of dominance

[skygazer]

198. Why, that's Mr. and Mrs. Samuel Brainsample

And no one would guess from that photo that they're actually from the planet Skyron in the Galaxy of Andromeda.

Point well made. :thumbsup:

[unpossibles]

230. HE'S WALKING IN FRONT OF HER!!1!

OMG< THIS IS SERIESLY HUGH!

I mean, walking in front of her shows he is DOMINATING her!!1!

[malta blue]

15. ...

:applause:

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

[unpossibles]

21. I disagree that it is a police matter or that it is not most likely consensual

I do see your point that it sends the wrong message, but is that because it's less subtle than the thousands of other messages we give children (think of the kids!) every day, things they may not understand?

Look, I see what you mean, but I just don't agree. Most people I know into BDSM (and it's quite a lot, frankly) are far more aware of abuse and equality issues than most people not into it.

Additionally, this couple looks like they enjoy the Shock aspect, and they aren't hurting anyone. Your reaction is exactly what they want, and were the police called, they would ask the woman how she felt and be unable to do anything if she agreed/consented to this.

Not everyone fits with or agrees on your definition of what is acceptable in public. Should gay people be allowed to kiss in public? Many people - for the exact reasons you list - feel it should be left in the privacy of the bedroom. Some feel the same way with straight couples or black couples. I am not saying being Goth is the same as those - which should be obvious I would hope - but I am saying that I think you are overreacting.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

22. what if it were a man on a leash? unless you are saying no one should be on leashes

in which case i kind of agree with you.

a bdsm relationship is perfectly acceptable to me but it shoul remain in private spaces and not in public spaces with kids etc

[XemaSab]

28. I read it more of a political statement

:shrug:

[zingaro]

82. Doesn't look to me as though he's dragging her. And

this isn't about treatment of women. It's about - as someone said upthread - how each person gets his or her kink on. Maybe she digs the Master/Servant thing - obviously she does or she wouldn't be with him. If this girl didn't WANT to be on the other end of that chain, she wouldn't be.

BDSM has many manifestations. Just because you don't share them or maybe even understand them doesn't mean that you can judge them. They're both old enough to play with a little chain in public and shame on the bus driver who got his steering wheel in a knot over it. There are a lot of fetishes I can't say I understand but I'm not going to judge them or anyone who gets off on them. I'd sure hate for anyone to judge me based on how I tilt toward kink, kwim?

They are a stunning couple, imo.

[NashVegas]

121. These People Are Fucked Up and Need Psychiatric Care

The music technology student had this defence of her lifestyle.

"I am a pet, I generally act animal like and I lead a really easy life," she said.

"I don't cook or clean and I don't go anywhere without Dani. It might seem strange but it makes us both happy. It's my culture and my choice. It isn't hurting anyone."

She says it right there, she's a pet. Bus driver said 'no dogs allowed.' End of argument.

[zingaro]

126. Because they don't subscribe to what YOU think is appropriate

self-expression they need psychiatric care?

I am so glad to have met you today. I'm marking this on my calendar, right now. It's not every day one meets God, Judge and Jury.

[NashVegas]

128. Because They Have No Sense of Self-Worth

"pets" main sense of self-worth comes down to one thing: how well do they please their master.

Very unhealthy.

[Vektor]

162. Tell that to my dog.

He only does what I say when I have treats, and that's under great duress. :-)

[BuddhaGirl]

189. "Because They Have No Sense of Self-Worth"

wow!! you can tell all that from the photo? Huge projection on your part.

You obviously know nothing about D/s or BDSM. Why don't you try reading up on it before passing such uninformed opinions?

Pssst - here's a hint....it's the submissive/slave who's REALLY in control!

[NashVegas]

195. Did You Read the Article?

The girl, at least, is apparently hardcore (or on her way there) and needs help. I've seen and read enough to not see much difference between someone who would write "BDSM is just peachy" on a public message board and the average pro-Nambla propagandist.

Consensual

Some may argue that this is the most important theme in the practice of D/s, that nothing should ever happen to a slave unless she wants it to happen. Others, however, feel that this idea weakens the entire point of her submission, and I agree. Where is the obedience in always getting what you want? What value lies in a "gift" which only serves its giver? Placing limits of consent upon a Master's actions turns his dominance into a masquerade, lain aside as soon as his girl says the word. There's no reality to his mastery of her; she is controlling him.

Whatever our roles, we all feel the instinct to try to escape things we find unpleasant; does that mean that no Master should ever push his female or cause her pain, simply because she doesn't like it? That seems an awfully frivolous approach. The relationship between Master and slave has the potential to be so incredibly intimate that the idea of putting such a wall between the two is dismaying, to say the least. If a girl does not trust the male she serves, enough to give him free and unobstructed rule of her, then he's not her Master. He's a play partner, nothing more. And while that may be well and good for them, it's hardly the kind of relationship we idealize. And it sends a message to the rest of the world that undermines the credibility of those of us seeking that level of reality, because we're painted with the same broad brush. - M. Esadrian

[BuddhaGirl]

200. of course I read it

she is role-playing. So what? It doesn't mean she "needs help." That is projection.

You are quoting from a site that considers male dominance/female submission to be the "natural order" of things. Most D/s-ers don't subscribe to that view.

And it IS all about safe, sane, and consensual.

Try reading "The Loving Dominant" - to get a better view.

[NashVegas]

259. I Can Find Others

Where the gender order is switched. The gender is less the issue than the notion that people are basically standing in a public square and claiming that no one should bat an eyelash over relationships that can't thrive without degradation.

[BuddhaGirl]

304. "relationships that can't thrive without degradation"

oh my - that's a huge stretch! :shrug:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

220. Wait, you're comparing it to child molestation?!

:rofl:

[zingaro]

224. I noticed that too.

What an appropriate comparison, right? Because nambla and two consenting adults is totally apples to apples. :eyes:

However I think it's a lost cause to continue chipping at the brick wall with picks of logic. Some walls are never coming down.

[Solon]

239. Crisco is infantilizing women...

I cannot believe so many people cannot assume that a mature woman can make decisions about her own life. Talk about patriarchal dominance!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

241. Is that it? Or is he running interference?

I'm reminded of the congressman who "crusaded" against child molestation, while the whole time he was sexually harassing under-age pages.

[zingaro]

245. Protesting too much

struggling to be understood through the zipper of his gimp mask?

:rofl:

[NashVegas]

252. I'm Comparing Pro-Mainstreaming BDSM Posts to NAMBLA Propaganda, Ya

Which is not the same.

Pro-BDSM mainstreamers should petition for their own DU group, if they don't want to be challenged.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

253. There's already a GLBT forum.

A lot of people like to "challenge" them too. Particularly with child molestation comarisons.

Fortunately, those sort of jokers aren't welcome on DU.

[zingaro]

223. Clearly

you don't get it and you don't want to.

Is it so hard to say "well, it's not what I would choose for myself but to each their own" or something along those lines?

[Freedom Knight]

172. Those that don't understand what they see do think the worst.

Those that do smile and are happy for then.

[zingaro]

226. Yep. Well said.

Nice avatar, btw. :)

[unpossibles]

232. she also says "It's my culture and my choice"

god forbid a woman have her own choice if it goes against what WE all know is right. Thanks for being so vigilant or we may have missed this.

[Vektor]

165. I tend to agree.

I have a lot of friends who are way into the goth thing, and they do a lot of role playing for turn ons. The "subs" are not really oppressed at all, and the relationship is consensual. A lot of these people dress in dominatrix like clothing and really enjoy "pushing the envelope" but in reality - a lot of it is role playing for fun. I am a total liberal, and very "pro-woman" but I don't see this sort of consensual kink as abuse, or offensive.

These folks are often really liberal themselves, and the girls some of the most outspoken you'll ever meet. They're just unconventional. I have no issue with it, and yes, I agree, they are a beautiful couple.

[zingaro]

233. Exactly.

And if their idea of playing is wandering through town leashed up, then who's to say it's "wrong"?

I can't help but wonder if the uproar would be the same if she was merely *wearing* the leash. Is it merely the fact that someone else is holding the other end that's so troubling? I see little girls at the mall wearing dog collars as jewelry - is that as bothersome as a fully grown woman who bears a chain attached to her own collar?

This discussion has been a very interesting read.

[GirlinContempt]

115. This from the woman who calls other women

ugly man-stealing skanks, and claims that breastfeeding is a tool of the patriarchy to hold down women and make us slaves.

Sure.
Whatever.

[LostinVA]

125. Thanks -- now I know who the "Ignored" is

You forgot that according to this poster, healthy eating & exercise is dangerous, so women should wear corsets and get liposuction.

[Radical Activist]

139. What?

really? lol

[GirlinContempt]

140. Yah, really.

Just the tip of the iceberg.

[ghostsofgiants]

182. You forgot that killing dogs for their fur is a-okay and that...

People with body piercings and tattoos, or who don't use high end skin creams and other such products basically hate themselves.

[LostinVA]

185. Don't forget Jesus Chicken

And that if you're vegetarian/vegan/pescetarian, you have an eating disorder.

[ghostsofgiants]

188. Ahhh, good times, good times.

[LostinVA]

267. Or "it's an honor to have your cat eaten by an eagle"

[ghostsofgiants]

272. Hahaha, oh man, I must have missed that one.

[LostinVA]

276. Check your PM

[GirlinContempt]

257. I only have so much time in a given day

sheesh ;)

[Flatline]

309. Oh Get off your high horse and let then 4 play how they want. n/t

[Greyskye]

4. What does that driver have against formal wear?

:shrug:

[pitohui]

6. would you want your daughter paraded around on a leash?

what about your wife?

what about your mother?

this ain't about wardrobe, it's about treating the woman you supposedly love and care about like a damn dog and then pretending to wonder why people notice

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

8. Guy's lucky that's not my kid on the leash

nt

[SteppingRazor]

14. What about what the woman herself wants? Does her opinion matter at all?

Or just the opinions of her father/husband/son/other male?

[unpossibles]

32. THANK YOU!!!!!

I am amazed that some here are saying this woman does not have the freedom to do this if she wants to. That chain is obviously for show. Were she gagged and bound I may agree, but come on!

[NashVegas]

122. They Should Both Be Committed

Anyone who would give another person complete control of their life has deep-seated problems, as does anyone who would assume such control.

[GirlinContempt]

135. Oh come off it already

[BuddhaGirl]

193. it's called "role playing"

and it's fun! Have you never done ANY role-playing? Why do you want to judge other people's kink? It's not hurting any one else? :shrug:

Jeez - what's with all the putitanical views here?

[gbate]

201. Certain role playing is fine. In private.

[BuddhaGirl]

203. It's not hurting anyone

so it's no big deal.

[unpossibles]

237. you're right. In fact, I am disgusted when straight couples walk down the street together

because it reinforces the patriarchy - notice the subtle clues that the man is in charge! I am disgusted by it and demand that people stop showing any affection in public - imagine trying to explain to my kids about love if they see two people enjoying each others' company in public!!1! The horror! What if they are holding hands or <gasp> kissing!!??

[unpossibles]

234. I don't mean to be rude, but you obviously have absolutely zero idea about what you speak

Seriously.

[RadiationTherapy]

258. This is a naive and 'black and white' comment.

there is mutual "control" in any relationship.

[NashVegas]

278. Naive

Is saying BDSM is not an indicator of emotional or mental issues, when you haven't seen someone in physical restraints and a dental dam get 9-inch needles pushed under their fingernails while they're in nipple clamps, with a trainer standing by to masturbate them when they start freaking out.

Cynical is claiming all is hunky-dory when you have.

"Oh but they consented. Totally different thing!"

[Solon]

281. You are simply projecting your own issues onto other people...

To be honest, I don't see how you can sit there and judge them at all.

[RadiationTherapy]

284. I didn't want to use the 'p' word, but that is what I see too

It is so cliche. "NO one would want to do something that I find so repulsive.

[RadiationTherapy]

283. Look, there are alt lifestyles and there is abuse.

Abuse is illegal; alt lifestyles are not, so, please, succinctly...what is your point?

[Oeditpus Rex]

298. So this rant of yours is based on one scene from your porn collection?

Wow, that doesn't seem fair at all. :shrug:

[A HERETIC I AM]

327. Do you have a video of that, by any chance?

when you haven't seen someone in physical restraints and a dental dam get 9-inch needles pushed under their fingernails while they're in nipple clamps, with a trainer standing by to masturbate them when they start freaking out.

Just curious, cause I must have missed that one.

[SeattleGirl]

26. Your argument presumes the woman is being FORCED to wear

the leash.

For all you know, she willingly wears it, and is not being coerced.

That does happen, actually.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

75. for all we know she convinced the guy to do this for her pleasure.

[SeattleGirl]

80. Absolutely.

People are far to ready to presume oppression when none is present.

[LostinVA]

114. "Sometimes it's just wrong."

I'm kidding!

Though, someone did say that to Haruka on here, once.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

76. for all we know she convinced the guy to do this for her pleasure.

[unpossibles]

30. I would want my daughter or wife to have the freedom to do what she wants to

as long as no one is harmed.

[Greyskye]

49. sigh

What I want is not the point. Neither is what you want.

As long as it is mutually consensual, It Ain't Nobody's Business.

Period.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

50. what if my daughter wanted this? should i disown her?

[Darth_Kitten]

119. perhaps..........

maybe it would be too hard for a parent to see a child who chooses the gutter.

[Radical Activist]

137. The most immoral people I know wear suits to work everyday.

So I have a hard time making quick judgments and assumptions about these two being in the gutter. I don't equate the unusual and unfamiliar with immorality.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

175. no shit. you are so right,

[Phillycat]

186. NO SHIT. Those motherfuckers at Halliburton are more morally twisted

than any goth BDSM kids around.

Edited to add that I don't think goth or BDSM people are morally twisted at all.

[RadiationTherapy]

161. "the gutter"bahahahaha n/t

[La Lioness Priyanka]

174. i dont consider it a gutter and as a parent i dont believe i get to say what my adult child

wants sexually

[Darth_Kitten]

301. Abuse in public?

n/t

[La Lioness Priyanka]

307. again part of feminism is to believe that women have the right to make controversial choices

and if shocking people is how she gets off, as long as she isnt hurting anyone. its not my business.

[unpossibles]

240. I agree. In fact, let's take this further and outlaw short skirts or trousers on women

because it is an obvious sign that she has chosen the gutter. The skirts you see these days are just shameless! And the cleavage! What's up with that? Obviously they are just showing their sweater kittens off so that some random pimp will buy them a new car. The hussies.



Call me crazy, but I would hope a parent's love would be strong enough to be reasonable about this.

[Darth_Kitten]

299. Oh, like totally misconstrue things, it's rather funny....

but if a child wants to be led around on a leash and subject themselves to being treated like shit, why should a parent have to witness that? It would break their hearts.........

Sorry that you seem to think this is all about clothing. Remember, it's about the leash and the ill-treatment this girl is subjecting herself to?

:sarcasm:

[Flatline]

310. She's old enough to make her own decisions

As a parent you can't tell kids what to do ALL THEIR life get over it.

[Maraya1969]

250. LOL Good one

[deucemagnet]

9. She can be my lapdog anytime.

If only she weren't young enough to be my daughter.

[Midlodemocrat]

16. Well, I know I'll get flamed for this, but I think it is disgusting to parade

ANYONE around by a leash. It's degrading.

[SteppingRazor]

19. No flame here. I think everyone is entitled to their opinions...

about what does or does not meet social mores. It's when you start demanding others conform to your opinions that I have a problem.

[Midlodemocrat]

24. Well, I believe everyone is entitled to their own mores and social codes

in private, but I honestly think some things don't belong in public. IMHO parading your girlfriend around on a leash is one of them. I'd feel the same way if she were parading HIM around.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

34. It takes an incredible lack of self-esteem...

to allow oneself to be displayed that way, and a stunning lack of character to be the one holding the leash. You'll get no argument from me.

[Orsino]

41. Or it takes an incredible amount of self-esteem...

...to choose to do that for fun.

It's a hard call to make, as the couple are playing with powerful symbols of oppression. They should be prepared for outrage on the order of that stirred up by the display of swastikas and Confederate flags. And we have to wonder whether the roles assumed here are completely voluntary. But throwing them off the bus with a cry of "freaks"? That itself smacks of generations-old oppression.

If the city wants a dress code on the bus, it should post one.

[unpossibles]

36. should gay couples be allowed to hold hands?

many don't think so.

[Midlodemocrat]

37. Of course. Not the same thing at all.

I honestly don't want to explain to my 11yo why a man is holding a woman by a leash in the same manner that she holds her puppy's leash.

A gay couple holding hands or kissing is on no consequence to her because she realizes people love differently. Holding a woman, (or man) by a leash gives uninterested parties far too much of a glimpse into their sex life.

[unpossibles]

40. I agree, but my point is that many people think that is wrong and don't want to explain to their kid

about homosexuality. See the similarities?

I'm not saying there should be a sex-in-public free for all, but judging by the pic this is obviously consensual.

Tell your kids they are playing make believe.

[Midlodemocrat]

45. Lots of things are consensual, but I don't want to see all of them.

[RadiationTherapy]

163. the truth comes out.

you don't want to see this. That is a sensible, non-judgemental statement.

I personally find that people who wear ties wear symbolic "leashes" showing they are beholden to a higher power(Mammon).

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

42. Heh.

"gives uninterested parties far too much of a glimpse into their sex life."

Ah, the old "I don't care what those perverts do in the privacy of their own home, I just don't want it shoved down my throat" argument.

Now where've I heard that before?

[LanternWaste]

178. Replace the word perverts with...

"I don't care what those perverts do in the privacy of their own home, I just don't want it shoved down my throat"

Replace the word perverts with Christian and we hear it all too often. Odd the many varied things that get 'shoved' down our throats these days.

[unpossibles]

243. wait. WHAT?!?

Since when are Christians oppressed in this country? And where do you live that they have to worship in private?

[UncleSepp]

287. Say the girl is playing at being a puppy.

It's actually very close to the truth, it just doesn't cover the parts of the truth your 11 year old doesn't need to know about.

[Critters2]

38. No comparison. Two people holding hands implies equity

and mutuality. One person leading another on a leash implies something else.

[unpossibles]

43. well, I agree it's not the same, but to many it is

There are plenty of folks out there who don't want gay people to be able to hold hands in public, and often it is "for the kids!" sake - in other words, they don't want to explain it to their kids.

I'm just saying that a lot of folks are jumping to some awfully large conclusions here. I know it's not the same in some ways, but in terms of how people react there are similarities.

[Critters2]

48. I cannot begin to see how two people in a relationship with

no clear power differential is the same as one person leading another around on a leash. And you'll no doubt reply with "But some people say there is". To which I reply, those people are wrong. Mutuality is the difference.

[Midlodemocrat]

51. And, just because it's consensual shouldn't mean it's acceptable.

Two girls, one cup anyone?


:thumbsup: mycritters2.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

54. Uh, why not?

Tolerance is a virtue.

[unpossibles]

60. ha! good point

what about high heel shoes. Many women feel those are barbaric and about power issues and whatnot. Should women be allowed to wear those in public? And what about men with ties?

Where does crossdressing fit into this? What if the guy is wearing a skirt?

[Midlodemocrat]

64. How do high heels and ties compare with Two Girls, One Cup?

Do you know what I am referencing? It's on You Tube. But, be warned. It is disgusting. That's my point. Consensual shouldn't always mean acceptable. Some things should remain off limits.

[unpossibles]

69. pooping in public is never allowed - at least not in most cities I've been to

wearing a chain is allowed.

High heels and ties could easily be considered bondage gear if you want to go there.

[LostinVA]

113. You just reminded me of this one time in a Catholic School Uniform Store

"Do you have any ties that aren't clip-ons?"

PRICELESS

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

65. What about black people who want to sit in front?

Just because they consent to sit in front it doesn't mean we have to accept it.

Right?

[unpossibles]

73. exactly!

How dare that woman do something which she knows will elicit shock and not bow down to the mores of society!

<sarcasm in there somewhere>

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

huh.

Banning these people from the bus implies inequity.

[Critters2]

52. The dog leash implies inequity.

Holding hands implies mutuality.

I'm not arguing for putting them off the bus. I am concerned at the message sent by a woman on a leash.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

56. Prudery implies inequity.

I don't think you can work this from an equity argument.

[Critters2]

59. Read Mary Daly

Women agree to things which are not mutual all the time. The culture teaches us to. I realize that calling me a prude is supposed to shut me up--to get me to be a good woman. I've never been a good, quiet woman. I won't begin now.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

61. how many women do you know who would agree to this? women agree to do things

that they do not want within cultural norms and mores. they hardly ever agree to bizarre public display of sexuality.

[Critters2]

66. There are different levels of oppression to which people will submit

for a whole range of reasons. No, the women I know wouldn't do this, but the women I know tend to be feminists, professional women in untraditional roles, many of whom have fought long and hard to be where they are. The fact that I don't know women who would do this doesn't mean it isn't oppressive.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

67. Riiiight.

And this girl is clearly a victim of societal oppression.

:rofl:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

71. i know feminists who would agree to this and because they enjoy the BDSM roles and exhibitionism

i think these people are amateurs and tacky. however should it be illegal for tacky people to ride the bus?

[Critters2]

72. Since I never argued against them riding on the bus,

I'm done with this conversation. We're talking past each other, and there's no point to that.

[Oeditpus Rex]

81. '-isms' may be practiced in different ways

Dick Gregory titled his 1964 autobiography "Nigger" and dedicated it to his mother, saying, "Whenever you hear the word 'Nigger,' you’ll know they're advertising my book."

Did Gregory oppress himself?

[RetroLounge]

325. Hey, I just sold a copy of that book!

I had to get rid of it, it was oppressing all the other black authors...

:rofl:

RL

[LostinVA]

123. While, I think they're doing it just to freak out some people

Participating in S&M doesn't mean someone is being oppressed, not a feminist, or not a professional.

In fact, the one who looks "oppressed" to you, has the most control.

[Radical Activist]

141. The most oppressive ways of controlling women are generally within societal norms

since women being submissive is a societal norm.

Most of the women I've know who were into non-traditional sexual activities were radical feminists and political activists. Its the repressed, submissive Christians and sorority girls who stick to traditional sexual norms.

[Critters2]

206. Again, I'd suggest you read Mary Daly.

She points out that oppression of women happens in both traditional and non-traditional settings.

[unpossibles]

246. of course it does. I don't disagree with that one little bit

in fact, I think most oppressive behavior is far more subtle than this.

BUT, that said, I find behavior of this sort to be in a different camp, assuming that the woman in question agreed/wanted to wear the chain, which she states in the article that it is her choice.

We cannot ignore the choices which make us a little uncomfortable in this case. I know several proud feminists who are also totally into porn. Is their choice in this matter wrong? If you can say it is, then why do they have the choice to begin with, the freedom to make up their own minds? Many even believe that they are reclaiming oppression by reclaiming the symbols of the tools of oppression, such as this chain or what have you. Like with shaving, this is not about what presents the right image of feminism, it is about personal freedom, choice, and the ability to be an adult.

Also, keep in mind that this type of thing - as mentioned by many here - is just a ploy to be shocking that goes along with the goth subculture, just like the name "Marilyn Manson" was meant to shock and titillate.

[Chovexani]

205. I know a couple of women, (and a few men)

Who do the master/slave thing and carry it through every aspect of life. There are 24/7 lifestylers out there in the BDSM scene. It's not my cup of tea, but it is out there, and not every female sub is doing it because she was pressured by a man. Hell, one of those women I know has a mistress.

I have to agree with Dan Savage though, that it's one thing to do that among like-minded people and such, but once you get out in public with it you're basically inviting the world into your sex life, whether they want to or not.

The people who say there's no difference between holding hands and walking someone on a leash have no fucking idea what BDSM is all about.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

211. i do too but would you consider those women oppressed?

i dont know if i want bad taste legislated

[Chovexani]

214. Not at all

People should have the right to do what they please if they're not hurting anyone.

The judgmental attitudes here (not to mention the inherent paternalism of all the people wanting to "save" this woman) are disgusting but not surprising.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

215. women cannot make controversial decisions. its not in our set of abilities.

:hi:

[Chovexani]

219. We need someone to tell us how to live

Oh, the irony. :P

[La Lioness Priyanka]

221. and how we should fuck nt

[Chovexani]

225. In the missionary position with the lights off!

You slut :P

[La Lioness Priyanka]

228. i have never had sex in the dark. i am definitely going to hell.

[Chovexani]

231. I'll save you a seat on the bus

I won't even kick you off it. :D

[unpossibles]

248. you forgot the sheet with the hole in it.

I mean, otherwise you may accidentally have fun.

[youthere]

254. You forgot the flannel...

many MANY layers of flannel...preferably with a delicate calico design.

[unpossibles]

247. well, to be fair, I wasn't saying it is the same

I was trying to draw a parallel between things people "don't want to see" or "don't want to explain to their kids" and was actually using gay couples as my analogy because of the backlash against PDA.

[Chovexani]

294. I understand

I got kinda snippy, and I'm sorry. I get what you were trying to say now.

This thread just kinda set me off. :(

[unpossibles]

315. me too! Understood and all good

I mean, I can't imagine why anyone would object to being lumped in with pedophiles and abusers. </sarcasm>

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

62. Well, we agree on something.

"I've never been a good, quiet woman."

As a good person myself, I've never been quiet about people who tell other people to get off of a bus because they can't accept them.

If you don't like these kids, then by all means. Don't do what they do, and if you don't like to see them, stay indoors and hide.

[Critters2]

68. Please try reading my posts if you're going to respond to them.

I never said they shouldn't have been on the bus.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

70. Yeah, I see you trying to have it both ways.

They can get on the bus, but it's not "acceptable."

[Critters2]

74. Did I use the word "acceptable"?

Please show me that quote.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

251. Isn't that what you're implying?

Or do you accept inequity?

Wait, forget I asked.

[emad]

91. In S&M lore the one wearing the leash is suppoosed to be doing

the 'leading on'....

[Flatline]

311. yeah your jealous LOL..n/t

[LynneSin]

44. Degrading how

You assume that the woman was forced to be on the leash.

Perhaps that's where she wants to be

How do we know?

It's degrading to you because you would not want to be that woman on the leash. I know I wouldn't. But let's not assume that's what the woman wants (or didn't want)

[Midlodemocrat]

47. I think it's degrading regardless of who is at the end of the leash.

The implication is that the one being 'walked', whether male or female, isn't capable of controlling themself and needs to be directed.

I just don't think society need to accept all forms of behavior just because they're consensual. Two girls one cup comes to mind. Consensual? Absolutely. Disgusting. You bet.

YMMV.

[Flatline]

312. They are not putting anyone in Danger

so give it a rest if 2 men hold hands are you saying that is showing too much of what goes on in the bedroom?

[nebenaube]

98. I almost never leash my dog...

Unless someone is freaked out that is. Funny thing, is she's 14 and has never bolted... The way I see it is if I go out of my way to be places that people do not frequent or it's too damn cold to be out anyway (like way below zero) who gives a damn?

[sasquatch]

104. Oh yeah, then why do you do it to the midlets?

:cry:




















:P

[LostinVA]

111. I guess it's a good thing I always leave Haruka's leash at home, then

Just kidding. The only one here with a leash is the dog.

Most people are pretty private about S&M, except for clubs, pride parades, etc. These people seem to be into it for the shock value.

If she wants to be leashed up at home, or in an S&M club, more power to her. I don't think it's really degrading, since the bottom is really the one holding the power. I'm pretty much anything goes, as long as it's safe, sane, and consensual, but in this case, it's more of "two idiots trying their damndest to shock people"-type thing.

[Marrah_G]

168. Your post is spot on.

[LostinVA]

191. As always

hehehehehe

[Marrah_G]

199. Wierd isn't it

Maybe you are my long lost twin.

You do remind me alot of someone folks I know in VA....so much so it's scary. If your name is Lisa or Kim I may fall off my chair.

[LostinVA]

204. Neither Lisa nor Kim

I thought I'd signed my name to PMs -- maybe not!

[no name no slogan]

18. She is no dog

But I'd walk around on her leash any time

:hide:

[sasquatch]

105. HAHAHAHA!!

:D

[Bunny]

20. If they're into BDSM, only amateurs walk around like this in public.

There are far more subtle ways to reinforce the relationship than this, and most people in the lifestyle know this.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

27. yes, this is true.

[Greyskye]

57. Agree to an extent

Google images of "Folsom Street Fair". I have a feeling that some of these folks may disagree with you. I do grant that this is not "everyday" behavior for the majority of these people.

[Bunny]

63. Yes, but the Folsom Street Fair is a special event where people

make a point to dress up and be on display. These two amateurs appear to be doing this everyday,not as part of a special occasion.

[Greyskye]

79. As I said:

"I do grant that this is not "everyday" behavior for the majority of these people."

That being acknowledged, it comes down to 'freedom of speech'.

As long as it is mutually consensual, It Ain't Nobody's Business.

[Der Blaue Engel]

153. Indeed. See if you can spot me.

This thread is really depressing. :(

[Flatline]

313. Please explain you must take part....n/t

[NewJeffCT]

29. odd situation

did whoever runs the bus - be it a private company or a governmental agency - have a policy that forbids this type of clothing and situation on their buses? If not, then I think the bus driver was out of line.

PS - I've never been one to get into bondage or anything like that either way and have no desire to lead any woman around on a leash.

[DS1]

31. He's got more makeup on than she does

I've seen this sort of stuff in Cambridge, MA. They seemed to just like the attention.

[Parche]

33. Does She Get On All 4's?

:rofl: :rofl: :hi:

Doggy style? :shrug: :hi:

[Deep13]

39. I hestitate to mention this, but looking at their faces...

...makes me think they might be close relatives. They both have the same facial structure. Now, I know they are both English, but even still.

[Dr. Strange]

92. I noticed that too...

a little like "Goth comes to Appalachia?"

[emad]

218. Maybe just the crack.

Smoking too much of the stuff can make ya look demented...

[muriel_volestrangler]

295. They have very different facial structures

Look at their noses - his, and the middle section of his face, is very long. Hers is short. He looks like Ann Coulter; she looks like Chelsea Clinton.

[HamdenRice]

46. She's hot, kind of like Chelsea Clinton in her prime

if Chelsea had had jet black hair.

[SoxFan]

102. Post this comment in GDP

Please?

[Orrex]

53. Freedom of expression, I think

If no one is harmed, people should be free to express their nonconformity, no matter how deliberately calculated and affected it may seem.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

55. i agree.

[harmonicon]

58. If I were the bus driver

I wouldn't let that smarmy smirking fucker anywhere near my bus, but I'd drive the lady anywhere she'd like to go, for free - official bus route be damned!

note: edited because, as the above illustrates, I'm an idiot, but I can be an even bigger idiot when it comes to spelling and shit, yo..... <--- see

[TZ]

77. Can I just point out that the source, the Daily Mail is a very dubious source

Much like the worst RW rags that Faux news might publish in this country. I'm quite skeptical on whether or not this incident happened as claimed here. If this was a story by Bill O..would you trust it?

[emad]

83. It's not called The Daily Fascist for nothing...but thse sites also

reporting the same story:

Faux:
Bus Driver to Goth Who Walks Fiancee on Leash: No Dogs Allowed
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,324551,00.html

Goth couple's upset at 'freaks and dogs' jibe
http://www.dewsburyreporter.co.uk/news/Goth-couple39s-upset-at-39freaks.3684694.jp

Goth who walks fiancée on a leash is banned by bus driver who told him: 'No dogs allowed'
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23433561-details/Goth+taken+for+walks+on+a+leash+banned+from+bus+by+driver+who+says+'no+dogs+allowed'/article.do
(sister paper)

[chknltl]

84. Sorry, looks like a happy couple of goth kids!

I would not be surprised if she walks him around as well... Most of the goth kids I've bumped into were quite aware of equality. Most folks I have bumped into were quite aware of equality too for that matter. What does what one wears have to do with the concepts of equality anyway? Is there a suggestion here that Goth lifestyles lead to some sort of sexual inequalities?

On the other hand, if this guy actually believes that this gal is a possession of his AND/OR this gal believes that it is OK to be possessed by someone else...well THAT would be messed up indeed. I confess that in my 53 years, I have not bumped into too many folks who were THAT messed up. I am betting that these two are NOT that messed up!

It is common knowledge that our society has indirectly condoned sexual abuse toward women. One could argue that this indirectly promotes such abuse... I'd not debate that angle because this DOES indirectly promote such abuse: It reinforces in some folks, (FAR MORE than you might think), the notion that sex-abuse is OK. Folks like that are already sick imo., most are unaware of their sickness. The bottom line is women are getting battered and worse...a problem in urgent need of society's attention. (Thank you Ilfern)

That said: Frankly I think they look cool together and I suspect that they are having great fun at everyone else's expense.

[MrCoffee]

85. d00d, they're sooooo alternative...do they have Hot Topic in England?

[PassingFair]

86. This would just get a snicker and a roll of the eyes from me....

but I'm curious, how would everybody feel if the
girl was black?

Would that make a difference?

I think it would to me.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

87. nope. if thats what she wants, she shouldnt not get it because she is a minority

[WritingIsMyReligion]

88. Why the FUCK would you ever allow yourself to be led around on a leash??

Good fucking hell.

:puke:

[emad]

90. $$$$$$$$$$s from newspaper reporters in the middle of January?

?

[unpossibles]

94. how do we know "allow" is the right word though?

Maybe she loves being lead around on a leash.

I know folks who enjoy things like this because it allows them to just "be" - heck for some of them, it has nothing to do with sex, but more with allowing control. In most cases - all responsible ones actually - the bottom (sub, "slave", etc.) has a lot more real power than the top (dom, "master", etc.) and can literally call for a stop at any time.

Yes, it obviously is a very loaded statement to make and they knew they'd upset someone. So is flag burning. It's pretty obvious she is walking along, that she consents (at least on some level) and it's highly likely they see each other as equals in every other aspect of their lives. Heck, for all we know, they might switch and be equals in this aspect as well.

On some level I understand where people are coming from if they are shocked. Like I said, this is meant to be shocking, at least on some level if not several. But it's pretty obvious that she is not being coerced into doing this, and as some have pointed out, the whole thing may have been her idea.

We don't really know, do we? Yet we judge away.

[LostinVA]

101. There's no point discussing S&M with a 15-year-old

[unpossibles]

103. oops!!!

color me slightly embarrassed, but my points still stand I guess.

[LostinVA]

106. It's okay -- they were still good points

[unpossibles]

110. thanks. I guess I just feel that alternative lifestyles get enough bad press/information

and just trying to fix that where possible.

:)

[NashVegas]

131. No. Please. Explain to the 15 Year Old

How everything she's been taught about how healthy sexual relationships are conducted between two equals is magically supposed to be thrown out the window once she's reached the age of consent, how this really doesn't harm anyone, and how she'd be correct to throw it out the window.

[Unvanguard]

144. "Healthy sexual relationships" and sexual relationships that conform to social norms

are not synonymous.

I would tell a fifteen-year-old exactly that: ignore all the nonsense about how a relationship is "supposed" to be. The only rule is freedom: every member of the relationship should be free to make his or her own choices, and should not be pressured, threatened, or forced into them.

[unpossibles]

249. ok. I will gladly explain that many "alternative" relationships (those outside the norm)

can still be healthy and exists between partners who view each other as equals and filled with respect and communication.

What about all the couples who really do abuse each other but look perfectly "normal" on the outside? Do they get a free pass?

[WritingIsMyReligion]

275. Who would that be?

I don't happen to know any 15 year olds around here, except perhaps MMR.

:shrug:

:P

[LostinVA]

277. Sorry -- 16 and one-quarter-year-old

How's school going? Looking forward to winter break?

[WritingIsMyReligion]

279. It's going all right, really.

Midterms are this week--freakishly bad, of course, but that's life in public education. I can't wait for February vacation.

:hi:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

95. why ar e you assuming she was allowing? i think she was desiring.

[MissMillie]

129. yep but believe it or not

some people can't "get off" without being degraded

[Unvanguard]

143. Some people find it sexually exciting.

Better question: why the fuck should we stop people from doing what they want, when it isn't hurting anyone else?

[WritingIsMyReligion]

274. We shouldn't, particularly.

My disdain was for the act, not necessarily for expressing it. They can do whatever the fuck they want, but I sure as hell am not going around on a leash. :D

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

229. To piss off people like you.

:shrug:

[WritingIsMyReligion]

273. Clearly.

:P

Them damned fuckin' leashers is gunna get mah ass!

Oh, society....

:evilgrin:

[DarkTirade]

89. ... the thing that surprises me here the most is the responses.

They are not doing anything overtly sexual. They are just being their own eccentric selves. And if that's what does it for them, I really don't give a crap. Unless they start humping right there on the bus, I don't see any reason not to allow them on.

And the vitriol spouted by a few people on here towards this couple surprises me quite a bit. Somehow I expected a bit more from a progressive board.

[DarkTirade]

93. Then again, looking at the responses again..

I'm only seeing one person going nuts about this. Nevermind.

[algol]

96. Agree. Couldn't it just be a shocking statement?

I'm guessing a lot of clove smoking and patchouli stinking thought went into this public display. The point is to make you take the second and third look, wonder what she's thinking, wonder what kind of guy could do this.

Aren't the widespread CCTV cameras planted about the landscape a much more degrading imprisonment than this silly little leash?

[NorthernSpy]

97. obnoxious attention-whores

The authorities won't let you ride the bus if you're leading another human being around on a choke-chain?

That's discrimination! Oh, when will the oppression end!


:eyes:

[MrCoffee]

99. i just thought it...you had the guts to say it

:thumbsup:

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

132. they're so spooky-i bet they haunt a lot of mall food courts

apparently little has changed in the 12 years since i was a teen

[Radical Activist]

146. lol

Yep, doing what the hippies did in the 60's.

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

133. they're so spooky-i bet they haunt a lot of mall food courts

apparently little has changed in the 12 years since i was a teen

[RadiationTherapy]

263. to hell with bland, potato sack existences. the world is boring enough. n/t

[LanternWaste]

317. I'd hate to think that a person's existence is defined by clothing

I'd hate to think that a person's existence is defined by clothing. The most individual, creative and exciting people I know dress like Johnny Milquetoast. The most boring people I know dress like they just finished playing a grunge gig at a tattoo parlor...

[Deja Q]

107. So, no men are allowed on the bus? Sheee-yit, that's sexism!

Is Obama's campaign driving that bus?

:yoiks:

Okay, they wouldn't look out of place in 18th Century England... albeit in a cemetery...

[Deja Q]

108. Oops! Misread the post and noted he was holding the leash...

Must be Hillary's camp then...

[Ellen Forradalom]

109. What-EVER

Everyone's blowing this one out of proportion.

[Mojambo]

117. As long as he carries a plastic baggie to pick up the poop, I'm fine with it. n/t

[mainegreen]

130. Yours is the correct answer!

:rofl:

[Downtown Hound]

154. LOL! Best response evah!

[DS1]

134. She'll get a cold out like that

It's never sunny in England, and probably only 50 degress F.

[Withywindle]

136. Awww, that's so cute!

They're playing "Freak the Mundanes," folks. Classic geek/punk/goth culture game, with infinite subcultural variations, though the BDSM folk have a natural advantage cause they can work more S-E-X into it.

Good to see it still works. :evilgrin:

[Lilith Velkor]

190. Takes me back to that beautiful Goth boy I used to walk on a leash in college

The bus drivers would make fun of us, but they never kicked us off for it.

[Chovexani]

222. Brings me back to high school

When I used to hang out on St. Marks Place in NYC, in front of Kim's Video with my friends, and have Japanese tourists ask to take photos with us.

Sometimes we would charge them money. :P

[Radical Activist]

138. I'm jealous.

If that happened to me I would file a civil discrimination suit against the city/company and live off the winnings for as long as I could.

[GirlinContempt]

142. This thread is nuts.

How is the assumption that a womans free choice is harmful to her and should be stopped any less offensive than the supposed 'degradation' that is occurring?

The idea that a woman needs to be morally or intellectually 'led' from her own choices in to those more acceptable to you is disgusting and demeaning.

Characterizing this as abuse is ignorant and histrionic.

[Radical Activist]

145. uh huh

yep.
As I said in another comment, most forms of controlling women fit within societal norms since women being submissive is a societal norm. Its less noticeable because its familiar.

[RadiationTherapy]

164. I knew this was POSSIBLE here, but

I didn't see it coming. multiple laughs in this thread.

[alphafemale]

147. Would people here would react differently if it was a "Redneck" who'd had a woman on a dog chain.

Parading her about under-dressed in cold weather.

I'm guessing there would be a lot fewer defenders of something like this, but that's just a guess.

[Solon]

148. If she's a willing participant, what's the complaint?

Its consensual, in a case like this, being a judgmental ass just makes you look bad. I wouldn't care if he or she were rednecks or Goths. What does that have to do with anything?

[Downtown Hound]

152. You're making a lot of assumptions here

Not the least of which is the idea that this girl is an unwilling participant in all of this. There are women out there who love this sort of thing. Trust me, I know a few of them. And there are men who love it when women do this kind of thing to them. If any person, redneck, goth, yuppie, or suburban soccer mom, was ever forced into this kind behavior against their will then I and everyone else in this thread would be condemning it and demanding that that individual be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. If these two are willing participants though, which seems to be the case, then what's the problem? There's plenty of real problems in the world to fight, and plenty of people that really do need help. Wasting time passing judgment and crusading against how two consenting people get their gratification, be it sexual or something else, is archaic and backwards.

[alphafemale]

156. I was guessing that MORE people would react if the couple was dressed as rednecks.

I really don't care what the Goth couple is doing. They are just doing it for a reaction anyway.

And many people purposely ignore stuff like this because it has come to be seen as camp and theater.

But put the guy in a dirty baseball cap and a Nascar jacket, and the girl in a Confederate flag tank top and I'd be willing to bet they'd receive a whole lot more negative reaction.

There'd probably be people ready to kick the guy's ass every hundred feet.

It would be much more likely to be seen as abuse if they presented themselves differently.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

270. the difference is whether or not the women had choice in this and whether its by her choice

[alphafemale]

314. Of course. But it would be assumed to be abuse much faster if they were dressed differently.

People have come to almost expect this type of thing from Goths.

I think a couple dressed as rednecks would have been confronted more.

If it were a black "pimp and Ho" they would have probably been arrested within half a block.

[LanternWaste]

318. We have standards of convenience in many cases...

"Would people here would react differently if it was a "Redneck" who'd had a woman on a dog chain."

I think that's a very valid question on your part. We have standards of convenience in many cases...

There's an interesting discussion in the Lounge about women not taking their husband's name upon marriage, with a heavy consensus that taking the last name implies ownership/dominance by the male.

If a dog leash on a woman doesn't do the same thing and in a more obvious way, then I'll be damned if I can''t figure out the precise and relevant difference...

[Downtown Hound]

151. I've played around with BDSM before

And the only other board I frequent besides this one is related to the topic. So I'll offer my two cents. Most true BDSM practitioners would not do something like this. Not because it crosses the line, mind you, but rather it obliterates it. When BDSM'ers like to do things in public, it's usually the thrill of secrecy and the desire to break the rules that's a turn on. But very rarely is it done out in the open like this. It's usually something discreet that somebody would only notice if they were close enough or something happened. I knew a girl that loved to be chained in public. But no one around her ever knew it. She would cut holes in the pockets of her sweaters and then slip handcuffs through them that were attached to a waist chain. To anyone passing by it just looked like she had her hands in her pockets, but in fact she was securely shackled.

Another girl had her "master" lead her around on a leash like in the story here, but no one ever noticed. The leash was attached to a collar and went down her sleeve underneath her clothes. It came out in her hand, and her master would direct her around while they walked, but to anyone watching it just looked like they were holding hands.

So I'd have to agree with others here that this is less about kink and more about making a statement. Much of the thrill that comes from playing in public comes from the desire not to get caught. That being said, these folks should have the right to do whatever they want as long as it is consensual. BDSM is really nothing more than the sexual manifestation of the power struggles that occur between men and women every day. Even a wedding ring is a from of ownership, even in this "enlightened" age. What's the difference between putting a ring around a person's finger and putting a collar around somebody's neck besides the fact that it's a different part of the body? One is accepted by society, the other is not. But the symbolism is the same. It's the act of willingly belonging to another. BDSM just takes it to a whole new level.

[BuddhaGirl]

196. great post!

:thumbsup:

[Der Blaue Engel]

285. Honestly, I think it depends on where you live and who you are

I've seen plenty of people in San Francisco demonstrate a D/s relationship like this in public. The need to keep things more discrete differs by circumstance, desire and community.

Since I don't know this couple, I can't possibly say whether they're trying to make a statement or not; frankly, I don't label people as posers even if I suspect they're doing something to get attention, because it affects me not at all why individuals choose their public personae. I'm sure plenty of people would call me a poser because I don't conform to their standard of a "true" goth or BDSM practitioner. That has never really concerned me.

But regardless of why they're doing it, I think this couple is adorable. :loveya:

[Downtown Hound]

303. I agree that they are adorable.

Heh, I'm jealous of that guy. That girl is absolutely beautiful.

[Der Blaue Engel]

155. The responses on this thread have really opened my eyes

At least now I know who I'm dealing with. (Actually, there are so many surprises here, I should probably make a flowchart so I don't forget.)

For the record, if anyone cares, I am a feminist and a practitioner of BDSM. I am not currently a "lifestyler," but I have been in the past when it was something I needed more in my life.

I usually feel a sense of "family" with many people in the Lounge, although I'm not someone most of you probably remember or interact with, but this thread has really changed my feelings about that.

Whatever you may think of people who are outside your realm of experience, you might want to keep in mind that your comments are affecting real, live people. (That is, if you care. I suspect those making the most egregious comments do not.)

[NashVegas]

159. It's Because Some Comments May Affect Real, Live, People

That I feel it's important to go "Michael Landon" when I see people spreading the "Safe, sane, consensual" propaganda from people wishing to mainstream BDSM.

When a person is a "cutter" we say they are having emotional troubles and need psychiatric help.

When that person finds someone to do it for them, we're supposed to think 'hey, it's consensual. Everything's fine'?

[Der Blaue Engel]

286. I think you need psychiatric help for your obsession with what others do

Did that seem rude? That's because it was.

Guess who encouraged me to engage in BDSM and find a Master? MY THERAPIST. Oooh, yes, SHE must be disturbed and must be a BAD therapist.

Maybe you should worry less about diagnosing strangers and more about your own life.

[Downtown Hound]

302. There are many different levels of BDSM

"Cutters" as you call them are only one level of it. As I've never done any serious cutting I really can't claim to be an authority on it, but you know, some form of self-mutilation or self-induced pain endurance test has been very common in many different cultures since we first appeared on the planet. Prehistoric cultures used to put themselves through hell in some of their rituals, and there's even archeaological evidence that some of them used bondage during sex too. Those cultures existed for thousands of years without ever threatening to destroy the planet once. Can we make the same claim?

And no, I'm not saying self-mutilation in the context of depression is okay. I would strongly encourage anybody that was doing that to seek professional help. But I guess where you and I will differ is that I think that there are different motivations for someone that cuts themselves in isolation out of desperation and someone who does it as a fetish with a partner. So yes, I think that if it is consensual, then we're supposed to back off, whether or not everything is fine or not. Even if someone is having someone else cut them because of desperation, well, what are we going to do about it? People need to follow their own paths in life as long as they don't hurt others against their will. They should be free to practice their own form of therapy, even if that means cutting yourself. Hell, it's cheaper than real therapy. LOL.

[Steerpike]

167. thank you...

I thought as liberals we were supposed to be accepting of "alternative" lifestyles. I may be a more moderate Democrat, but I do hope that I can be generous about young people being open about their choices. I just don't feel any evil intent in either of their faces.

[Der Blaue Engel]

288. Are you a fan of Mervyn Peake by any chance?

Or maybe just Jonathan Rhys Meyers? :D

[bicentennial_baby]

202. ...

:loveya:

[Chovexani]

208. Oh honey, I know what you mean.

Don't EVER come out as someone who is non-conformist around these parts unless you want to be burned at the stake.

I'm not a lifestyler, it's just not my thing, but I am very much into BDSM and...yeah. Apparently because I'm a sub I'm a horribly abused woman with low self-esteem who is incapable of making choices about my sex life.

And because I'm a Goth I'm an attention whore.

I'd hate to see the responses I'd get about being poly.

[RadiationTherapy]

212. I remember the vampire thread. n/t

[Chovexani]

216. I've been trying to forget it. (n/t)

[bicentennial_baby]

236. People don't take too kindly to polys 'round here...

Trust me ;)

[Chovexani]

293. Oh ya really

But everyone knows sniffa's a dirty whore. :D

[bicentennial_baby]

300. Well that goes without saying....

:rofl:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

213. Oh, I'm not surprised.

These same rubes have been quite vocal about their views on sexual non-conformity in the past. Nothing new here.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

158. I think the bus driver should be on a leash

and a muzzle.

Job description: take the money, drive the bus, stfu.

[Vektor]

160. The bus driver is an asshole, who takes issue with the way this couple looks.

He's probably a crusty old right wing curmudgeon who has a problem with the fact that these young people don't look "conventional."

And he's likely jealous, because as "unconventional" as they may look, they are a gorgeous couple, and I doubt the old fart has shapely young things lining up at his door for a little S&M.

I'm so tired of crotchety fucks with no sense of style or tolerance getting up in people's faces for their appearance. The ass-faced bus driver needs to get over himself.

[xchrom]

166. well -- my personal opinion -- they should be happy they are not my kids.

:spank: :nuke: :spank:

they'd have a whole new take Gothy BDSM.

this goes from BDSM into another realm enirely -- and that is a wrong one.

but -- just my two cents.

[Vektor]

169. Furthermore...

I don't even think they look all that unusual. I'd probably not even notice them in a crowd. I see lots of goths and people who look alternative and counter culture - so many in fact, living in an urban area, that goths don't even look "different" to me.

This is actually quite tame.

[LanternWaste]

170. I can't understand what's so difficult for you people to understand...

I can't understand what's so difficult to understand...

Stevie Nicks has been the ONLY person to pull off Goth attractively... :evilgrin:

[Freedom Knight]

171. Once again, those that know nothing about the culture.

They make rude comments and treat people that are different as lower life forms.

[Deep13]

180. Indeed. I guess bus drivers have the right to make sweeping judgments...

...on atypical citizens.

[JVS]

173. She shows too much cleavage to be allowed on a bus anyway

Cover up, you trollop!

[Deep13]

179. Two schools of feminist thought: ...

The first is that women should be free from patriarchal restrictions of their activities, roles and identity. This of course includes things like work-place discrimination and suffrage. It also includes a sexual freedom that contradicts the traditional fear of female sexuality. As long as both partners consent, a woman should be able to do what she wants without societal condemnation.

The second point of view is the idea that women are victims of degradation and that society must actively intervene to right wrongs. This perspective assumes that on some level voluntary behavior is not entirely voluntary because of cultural conditioning. This point of view wants to protect women from being seen as sexual objects and from being victimized as such. It treats the same as societal harm against all women.

One example of this split is the argument about legalizing prostitution. The first group would find it liberating and empowering while the second sees it as institutionalizing exploitation.

Generally, I guess I see the first point of view as the better argument while acknowledging the potential for abuse. The second argument frankly strikes me as patriarchal with the state taking over the role of the over-protective father.

[Robb]

181. Intent: draw attention.

Result: picture in paper.

Conclusion: victory.

Everything else is secondary.

[BreweryYardRat]

183. It's a non-issue, as far as I'm concerned.

They're just being silly and playing for a little attention. No big deal.

Now, if they were wearing much less in the way of clothing, or chickie there had on a gimp mask or a blindfold + ball gag, then I might start getting annoyed. Keep displays of that degree in the clubs, please.

But a little chain leash? Not a problem.

[ghostsofgiants]

187. I'm personally a little surprised that no one in the thread (that I've noticed) has been upset ..

By the bus driver calling her a dog. A lot of people in the thread are making assumptions and projecting their own meanings onto the leash, but to state explicitly that another human being is a dog doesn't quite sit right with me.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

192. ...

:thumbsup: if i could nominate this i would

[MissHoneychurch]

194. Thank you for pointing it out

:thumbsup:

[NashVegas]

197. I Don't Think the Bus Driver Was Commenting On Her Physical Attractiveness

Most of the posters in this thread seem to approve of the idea this woman allows herself to be displayed as a dog.

[Solon]

244. Yes we do, because its HER choice, and her choice only, no one else has the right...

to restrict her choices as long as she's not hurting anyone else. I find the arrogance of your position to be simply intolerable. Your opinion that either of them need to be committed just because they don't conform to your standards of proper behavior is a totalitarian mindset that is just atrocious.

[ghostsofgiants]

255. Absolutely.

This shit about them needing to be committed because of this is infinitely more degrading than her choosing to wear a leash. She's a grown adult who can make her own decisions and I don't think she needs jackasses on the internet making bullshit psychological assessments based on it.

[Solon]

260. I find it extremely hypocritical that so many so called "feminists" apparently don't believe...

in women having the freedom to make their own decisions about their lives. They treat women as little children, which is extremely offensive.

[LostinVA]

261. Excellent post

[ghostsofgiants]

262. Yeah, it's a little ironic.

[Chovexani]

264. Seriously.

I'm a feminist and resent these fake feminists telling women how to live.

Anyone who knows anything abotu BDSM knows the sub has the real power anyway

[Solon]

265. I know enough about BDSM that I know its not right for me...

but the key here is that I wouldn't dare suggest it isn't right for anyone else. Its a simple code of conduct issue for me, just because something isn't right for me, doesn't mean it isn't right for someone else. I don't understand why so many people have difficulty with that concept.

[Chovexani]

292. I don't know either

Silly me, I thought that was basically one of the cornerstones of a liberal political view.

[Withywindle]

305. You know what it reminds me of?

The kind of Victorian reformism that was essentially a bunch of bourgeois white women going around ministering to "fallen" women and women from other cultures and telling them how much better off they'd be if they just became good honest "ladylike" Christian housewives and sweatshop workers--i.e. a blind assumption that of course their values are the correct ones and if these poor oppressed people just got a proper education like THEY have, of course they would see the light.

Those reformers did a lot of real good, don't get me wrong. But it was condescending and patronizing as hell.

From what I have seen of the BDSM community--and I'm a dilettante and dabbler, not seriously in the lifestyle, but I have dear friends who are VERY serious--they spend a lot more time thinking about issues of power and equality and what it means to dominate and what it means to submit than just about anybody else. Including women's studies professors. In fact, some of them ARE women's studies professors.

Me, I just feel my skin crawl when the "feminists" you speak of decide that proper "empowered" sexual behavior should be determined by the least sexually adventurous among us. Goddess forbid! If I want to know where the limits are, I only want to hear it from someone who's actually been willing to cheerfully check it out (repeatedly)!

[LostinVA]

308. Spot on

According to some "feminists," my wife and I have an abusive, degrading relationship. Guess what? We love every minute of it, and we're actually total equals in the marriage.

My "Politics of Body Hair" thread stirred up a lot of talk on what isn't proper in the bedroom, and that people who shave are "unconscious victims."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=229&topic_id=5935&mesg_id=5935

[Withywindle]

324. I hear you.

You can hear that "abusive, degrading" crap right in this thread, and all I can say is it's obvious those people have never walked even an inch in someone else's kneehigh stilletto boots. Or whatever. I'm SO over any school of "feminism" that tries to tell me I can't truly understand my own desires until I've submitted to THEIR agenda.

I'm a switch and I'm *very* picky about who tops me and in what kind of scene--and none of these Sexual Fantasy Police have managed to convince me that their style of domination will come anywhere near what I need. :evilgrin:

I remember that body hair thread....I may have said something immoderate in it, just because I personally find the shaved-crotch look an individual turnoff (I like the nose-tickle!) and resent the increasing expectation of such in porn and society in general. If I offended any shavers, I apologize. It has nothing whatsoever to do with how much of a "good feminist" anyone is. It's a matter of taste and how anyone wants to live in her own body--it's like having tattoos or not, or wearing makeup or not.

[RadiationTherapy]

256. I Absolutely Approve, of course, I am not anti-choice, so it is easy for me. n/t.

[bullwinkle428]

235. Yeah, that was actually my first thought

when I read the thread title! :applause:

Then I had to go ahead and wade through some of the puritanical crap exhibited in some of the comments... :banghead:

[Deep13]

269. That definitely occurred to me. nt

[Lorien]

306. That was what I thought at first too. I thought it was a dig against her

appearance. Damned rude either way. My sister was a Punk and later a Goth in her teens. I can imagine her happily being led around on a leash (or, more likely, leading a guy around on a leash). Most of what she did then was for effect. Street theater, if you like, and it got her what she craved: attention. Nobody got hurt so it was no big deal, imho.

[Ilsa]

207. Is there a safety issue here? I dunno, but I wonder. And I think

they are both beautiful, btw.

[Chovexani]

210. Sigh. But they should be lucky they weren't killed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophie_Lancaster

This thread disgusts me. But it proves that many so-called progressives are just as troglodytic about alt-folks as their knuckledragging counterparts on the Reich.

Edit: For my punk brethren, I'd be remiss if I didn't link the Brian Deneke case. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Deneke

[jonnyblitz]

316. i have purposefully avoided posting in this thread .

i usually stay out of tattoo/piercing threads also for similar reasons but YEAH I remember the Brian Deneke situation in the 90's. I just threw away an old "punk planet" magazine with his story as the cover story funny you should mention him.

[emad]

217. BBC News: Operations director for Arriva Yorkshire (Bus Co) Paul Adcock, said:

Paul Adcock! Of course he did.

Operations director for Arriva Yorkshire, Paul Adcock, said: "Arriva takes any allegation of discrimination very seriously and have interviewed the driver regarding Mr Graves' claims.

"Our primary concern is passenger safety and while the couple are very welcome to travel on our buses, we are asking that Miss Maltby remove her dog lead before boarding the bus.

"It could be dangerous for the couple and other passengers if a driver had to brake sharply while Miss Maltby was wearing the lead."

The company said it was writing to Mr Graves "to apologise for any distress caused by the way this matter was handled".
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/bradford/7204543.stm

[bullwinkle428]

238. If it really was a safety issue, then that points out

the utter inappropriate-ness of the "no dogs allowed" comment!

[muriel_volestrangler]

296. The company and the couple tell very different stories

While the company is claiming it's a health and safety issue because of the leash, the couple say (from your Dewsbury Reporter link earlier):

Mr Graves and Miss Maltby refused to get off the bus but were eventually forced off after being threatened with police action. And on Monday, Mr Graves was waiting for a bus in Thornhill, this time alone. He said he held out his arm to flag it down, but the same driver smiled and drove past.

Mr Graves relies on the bus service as he does not drive and suffers from a circulation problem that means he cannot walk long distances in cold weather.

He said he always got on with other bus drivers and although he took his fiancee
round on a lead, they always took it off before getting on a bus as it could be dangerous.

So that's a claim they board the bus with the leash on; and one that he's been refused while alone, and that when together they take the leash off for the bus. Difficult to know what the reality is.

[Maraya1969]

242. What the hell are they on public assistance for? Unless they are seriously ill they should be

taking care of themselves. She said they stay together all the time. Well that is not an excuse for not getting a job.

"The couple, who live on benefits in a council house and plan to start a family, have been friends for years."

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

266. Er... unemployment?

Are you assuming that people who are on public assistance are either disabled or lazy?

[Maraya1969]

271. I assumed they were on disability. I did not think that they could be

on unemployment. Besides that and disability I see no reason they should be collecting assistance.

[Deep13]

268. Unemployment in Britian as been a persistent problem since the war.

I don't think I would be planning a family without a means of self-sufficiency.

[flvegan]

289. She's pretty hot.

[LostinVA]

290. You just like the leash, sicko

[flvegan]

291. Actually, it's the twins directly below the leash.

[boricua79]

321. my thoughts exactly.

Oops. I guess I'm a pig and can't ride THAT bus either now..

[T_i_B]

319. The real issue here is not S&M

it's H&S. Although I suspect that Health & Safety legislation is not really of interest to DUer's even though it's the real issue here.

[boricua79]

320. what are these kinky cute girls doing with those nerdy, weird boys?

I don't get it...

[RetroLounge]

326. I'll be in my bunk...

:wow:

RL