Fundie vs. Christian?

[smirkymonkey]

As a non-believer, I was wondering if someone could explain the difference to me between Christian values and Fundamentalist Christian values? Are there differences between denominations (Catholic, Episcopalian, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Methodists, etc.?) Where is the line drawn? What are the main differences?

I think one of the problems in discussion religion on this board is that some of us assume that when one identifies as a Christian, they are automatically percieved as a right-wing, intolerant, George W. Bush kind of Christian, however I know this is not always the case.

Can anyone explain the true differences? I have to admit that fundies kind of freak me out, but I do not want to be prejudiced toward all Christians, as I sometimes can be. Please enlighten me. Not to be taken as flame bait please. Thanks.

[Kamika]

1. true difference?

A real fundie christian is probably an Amish..


What you and me think of when we say fundie christian is mostly christians who thinks God seriously created the US and any attack against us is against God and hence we got God behind us.

Since in their warped twisted logic liberals are against bombing the bejeebus out of non christians, pro womens rights, pro gay rights etc we are deemed against God..


As a christian myself I guess I realize you gotta go with the times..

You can't act like its year 33 when it's year 2004

[TXlib]

2. I yield my time to SOteric...

I could add my $0.02, but I think she will say it much more eloquently.

[donco6]

3. There are quite a few differences

I used to be a fundie.

Fundies say they believe that the Bible should be interepreted literally in almost all cases. They believe in a literal 6-day creation, literal flood of Noah, literal crossing of the Red Sea through the walls of water, etc. They are strongly tied to the Bible, and usually have a preference in translation (King James version is the only true version, New American Standard is better, etc.) Most critically, fundamentalists believe that to escape the eternal punishment of hell, one must "accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior", which is usually manifested in some sort of salvation prayer.

Don't confuse fundamentalists with charismatics - the two groups rarely get along, and we should capitalize on this. Charismatics (usually the TV preachers you see are in this camp, Assembly of God) are not as tied to the Bible as fundamentalists, though they generally believe in the literalness of the biblical stories. Charismatics are more into experience - most importantly the experience of speaking in tongues, which they believe is an angelic language. Fundamentalists do not believe in the current expression of tongues, and will often condemn this and many other charismatic-type practices (healings, being "slain in the spirit" etc.)

Evangelicals are another group altogether. These are comprised of the more conservative Methodists, Lutherans, Presbyterians, and other mainline denoms. These are the groups that are not quite so literal in their biblical interpretation, and generally focus more on how a Christian is supposed to live his life.

Catholics occupy a realm of their own. Pretty much all the non-Catholics disagree with the current expression of Catholicism, especially regarding baptism for salvation and their views on communion.

And then there's the really liberals - Unitarians at the pinnacle.

This is a really brief representation. Ask for more if you want. Might as well make some good use out of this experience.

[smirkymonkey]

9. Thanks, that clarified a lot for me...

I couldn't figure out what the nuances were, but your explaination helped me to understand. :)

[beanball]

22. The Bible

the word of God written by man,the Book tells us to get knowledge and with that knowledge get understanding,most fundies have no understanding of the Bible,they believe what scroundels like Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell tell them they should believe they are too lazy to search for the truth.

[CanuckAmok]

40. And then there's the Church of England (Anglican)...

...at the other end of the spectrum. We are, as Robert Anton Wilson accurateely described us as, "...the only religion that interferes neither with your politics nor your religion..."

'nuff said about them. I was baptised Anglican, and didn't even notice!

[LARED]

4. Fundie doctrine typically looks something like this

We believe the Holy Bible, the Old and New Testaments, with its sixty-six canonical books in the original manuscripts is the verbal, plenary, inerrant and infallible Word of God, entirely without error or contradiction in all matters of which it speaks. We additionally believe that God, by His singular care and providence, has preserved His Holy Scriptures, and that the Holy Bible is, therefore, the only sufficient, final and supreme rule of authority of faith and practice

We believe in One Triune God, eternally existing in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; that they are equal in essence and attributes, yet distinct in office and activity

We believe in the deity of the Lord Jesus Christ; that He is the Eternal Son of God, that He was conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary, lived a sinless and perfect life, died on Calvary's Cross, was buried and rose again the third day, was seen of many, ascended into heaven and that He ever liveth to make intercession for all that come to God by Him

We believe in the deity of the Holy Spirit, that He is a person and not a force, that He regenerates, baptizes, seals, indwells, fills, teaches, guides, convicts, comforts, intercedes and sanctifies the believer

We believe that God created the heavens and the earth in six literal days and that man was created on the sixth day. We believe that life is sacred and that it begins at conception. Accordingly, we hold that the intentional termination of that life by abortion or euthanasia is condemned by Scripture.

We further believe that man was ruined by the fall in Genesis 3 and that he is totally depraved and that the only way to be saved is by grace. We believe that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone and in Christ alone. We believe in the literal bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ.

We believe in the eternal security of the believer

We believe the Church, which is the Body of Christ, began with the descent of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost, and that those who receive the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal Savior are members of the Body of Christ and are indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

===============

Actually most Church's in American had similar doctrines before the 1900's.

[smirkymonkey]

10. But how is that different from just plain old

Christianity - it sounds the same, pretty much.

[joycep]

13. I am a Christian

But definitely not a fundamentalist. I do not take the Bible literally. I guess most of the Church I go to thinks the same way. We welcome all people--homosexuals included. We have a woman pastor, female church officials, also gay officials. We recognize gay unions as ligitimate. One of the sayings on our printed material is that you don't have to leave your mind outside the door. Questions are ok. We take Jesus' sayings seriously and do try to live up to them but we do think there are some things in the Bible that are not authentic words of Jesus. We are all Democrats as far as I know, except for our Pastor's son and he is not old enough to vote! He's a fine kid--don't know what happened to him--maybe he was dropped on his head. Just kidding, of course. Hope this helps.

[YNGW]

27. Hmmmm

>I do not take the Bible literally.

If that were the case, I'd wouldn't even bother to believe in God at all. If this god is so weak that he can't have a book written that is his authenic and infalliable word in order to tell mankind what they must do in order to be pleasing to him, then he's not god and you're worshiping something that doesn't exist.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

5. Fundamentalist Christians and Fundamentalist Muslims

share one characteristic in common: they are both intolerant. They think that their way is the only way, and that other forms, even of their own faith, are condemned to the nether regions.

Christianity and Islam, however, both teach tolerance and forgiveness. The fundies give both faiths a bad rep that is undeserved if you check out the teachings of their prophets (Jesus, Mohammed, peace and blessings upon both of them)

[pocoloco]

6. A good place to start your research is

http://www.liberalslikechrist.org/

...although I have seen a few posts here that claim it is biased against the Catholic Church?

[hlthe2b]

8. I agree... Go to this website first.....

I don't recall an anti-Catholic bias, but the site certainly does a good job of pointing out the true message of Christ as opposed to the manipulated one put forth by the RW fundies.

[youngred]

42. It has a very large anti-Catholic bias

the message about liberal christanity is a very good one, just ignore or take witha grain of salt the parts about Catholicism (the owner of the site a former DUer is also an ex-Catholic Priest)

[RhodaGrits]

7. divisive -

there are even differences between the segments of the different denominations. I was raised Missouri Synod Lutheran and they have been racked by schism over the horrible action of a Lutheran pastor taking part in an ecumenical service post-9/11 in Shea Stadium - Worshipping with the godless, misguided and worse than godless: Catholics, Jews, Muslims and Buddhists. It never ceases to amaze me and is the sort of thing that drove me completely out of organized religion. I had a long talk with a Catholic priest not too long ago that made me question my many prejudices against Christianity. He was open, tolerant, compassionate and loving toward all his neighbors - of all faiths, orientation and backgrounds and felt that God was love and would welcome all with love. I suspect there may be good people in all groups and I am trying to maintain a more open mind (at least with the individuals not the institutions).

[Hell Hath No Fury]

14. You're kidding!

I honestly didn't know that there were those who still felt like that. I must say I'm pretty shocked. Here in SF we had religious leaders from just about every religious groups, including some I had never even heard of, at out memorial Everyone was respectful, everyone was compassionate, everyone offered those listening healing.

Except, and this is wonderfully ironic, the sole Baptist (I think) Rev. Amos Brown, who took the opportunity to condemn the US and say that we had brought the attacks on ourselves for turning away from Jesus. He was just about killed in the press the next day from ALL camps.

I guess I've just gotten so used to being around religious folks who are comfortable with other faiths/denominations, and who understand there can be something learned from them all.

I was raised Catholic, but instructed in such a way that, as an adult, I see value in all the truly spiritual paths.

[Red State Rebel]

21. We would all be better if we judged people by who they are not what ...

[MikeH]

11. People Who Don't Accept Christ Go To Hell, According To Fundamentalists

I think Fundamentalist Christians, in particular, believe that a person must explicitly accept Jesus Christ in this lifetime as his/her Lord and Saviour. And somebody who, for whatever reason, misses out on accepting Christ, is condemned to hell for all eternity.

I think Fundamentalists, in particular, if pressed, would admit to believing that. Conservative Evangelical Christians, if pressed, might waffle on that a little, but feel it is essential that a person accept Christ, and feel that Christians need to do all they can to see that others are "saved" in this lifetime.

At one time I took Evangelical Christianity seriously, and was involved briefly with Campus Crusade for Christ while in college. I found I couldn't stomach that belief and their way of thinking. Whatever I might believe about God or Jesus Christ (I am kind of agnostic right now), I cannot accept that I have to worry in the back of my mind about whether somebody else is "saved" or "unsaved".

Particularly since the sole basis for believing that is some book that was written 2000 years ago, and our interpretation of it.

I became personally disenchanted with Christianity in general (at least with the outward practice -- going to church, etc.) when I found it very unhelpful to me in dealing with some personal problems.

[BL_Zebub]

37. You say that as if going to Hell was a bad thing?

Hey, I've been here a few thousand years now, and it's really not that bad. Granted, my office is air-conditioned, and I am the guy in charge, so maybe I'm a little biased ;)

[hyphenate]

12. Go to Beliefnet

It's the best place to read about all the denominational differences between the different branches of protestantism, and it's also able to give you far more information on ANY world religion. It even contains a "quiz" to let you know what offshoots of religion your own beliefs--or lack thereof--mirror the most.

Beliefnet tends not to be tendentious, and it offers a fairly objective view of most religions. It doesn't say any one religion is better than another, but gives people enough information to think about each belief system in and of itself.

http://www.beliefnet.com

[Don_G]

15. Its Difficult To Explain

The origonal "Christian" Church is the Orthodox Greek or Russian sects in your city.

Subsequent to them were the Roman Cathloics, Islam, Martin Luther and the Southern Baptists who split off because "they" believed in slavery prior to the Civil War.

I prefer to believe in the common message that have been taught from Judasim through the current sects by the Lord, Christ, Buddah, Mohammed and the Pope; basically the 10 Commmandments....

Other than that, I "kind" of know the differences but I can't pretend to understand them other than an article of "faith."

[Exultant Democracy]

62. You forgot the Gnostics, they were the first Christians. n/t

[Rabrrrrrr]

64. No, the gnostics came later

The first Christians were the followers of Jesus, and from them, the Church of Jerusalem and slowly working outward. The gnostics came a generation or so later, and were always considered side-line to the "main" Christian faith, though not for a few more generations were they (the gnostics) considered enough of a threat that the church started their big conferences to determine what is properly Christian and what isn't; and there were many of these conferences, held to abolish many different strands and understandings of the Christain faith, during the first couple hundred years.

And it continues to this day.

[Exultant Democracy]

66. Well according to the Gnostics at least Jesus was a gnostic himself

and the Church changed the history of the early church at the first counsel of Nicaea. The gnostics cite that no one can doubt that the facts of Jesus' life and the activities of the early church were included in many of the Gospels that were suppressed at Nicaea and ruled heretical.

[smirkymonkey]

16. Thanks everybody!

I will check out the website. The reasons I am asking are threefold.

A. I am genuinely curious and feel that because I am so put off by extreme right wing Christians, I unfairly paint all Christians with the same brush.

B. I really am confused about the differences and it bothers me when I can't get something straight.

C. I have a small crush on a guy, and I have recently learned that he attends a bible study - does that mean he is a fundamentalist? Still not sure about that.

Anyway, thanks everyone for your input! :)

[KCDem]

19. depends on the bible study

And, to an extent, where you live. When we lived up north, I never thought twice about someone attending a bible study. Here in TX, if I find someone goes to BS (hm, interesting acronyn!), I assume they're quite conservative.

I go to a Unitarian Universalist church, although I am a Christian. A few of us formed a liberal bible study group. Rather than just accepting Christ as God's only son, we question the bible, discuss how it came to be (none of us see it as the direct word of God; what's in there is there for political reasons). We acknowledge that Jesus existed, but that he may have just been a pawn used by Paul... just a man who was later raised to this Christ-like status.

Ask the guy his thoughts... that's the best way to figure him out!

[smirkymonkey]

23. Thanks, I live in NYC, so I guess it's

possible that it could be a more liberal type of bible study. I suppose once I get to know him better, I will ask him about it.

Thank you!

[A HERETIC I AM]

24. How incredibly astute

go to a Unitarian Universalist church, although I am a Christian. A few of us formed a liberal bible study group. Rather than just accepting Christ as God's only son, we question the bible, discuss how it came to be (none of us see it as the direct word of God; what's in there is there for political reasons). We acknowledge that Jesus existed, but that he may have just been a pawn used by Paul... just a man who was later raised to this Christ-like status.


Very, very astute. Modern Evangelical Xtianity should really be called Paulianity or Peterianity. Many of the precepts followed by many Evangelical churches and the xtian R/W in general are quite antithetical to what Christ supposedly taught

[Lydia Leftcoast]

29. Depends on the Bible study

If it's at a fundamentalist church, be afraid, be very afraid. They learn "proof texts" for their doctrines and pat answers for skeptics and don't allow too much questioning.

If it's at a more liberal church, they'll study the historical background, the various ways in which the passages have been interpreted, and possible parallels with contemporary issues. It was in a Lutheran Bible study class about twenty years ago that I became aware of the Hebrew prophets' stands on social justice.

You could ask the guy about what he's learning in Bible study.

[TrogL]

49. Depends on the Bible study

but you're right, that screams "fundie".

However, we had a Bible study at my Anglican church, but it was so technical and theologically complex I doubt a fundie would have lasted five minutes.

[smirkymonkey]

17. Here's another question...

Do fundamentalists think that Jesus is God. I hear a lot of talk of Jesus and Christ, but no mention of the word god. Is it just semantics or is there some deeper reason for this?

[KCDem]

18. Christians believe that Christ is God's son

and that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (or Ghost) make up the "Trinity" or one "Triune" God.

[dolo amber]

55. This is where I get lost...

(Of course, being Jewish it's not like I've ever been taught this stuff, but anyway...)

Ok, so Jesus, God, and the Holy Ghost are like...all the same being? And if that's the case, then how did Jesus die? Wouldn't that have killed God as well? What is the function of the Holy Spirit...is that like what comes to live in you when you're *Saved*? Then there's the whole "You must accept Jesus to get into heaven" thing...what if you believe in God, but aren't so sure about the whole Jesus thing (as Jews are prone to doing ;)). If you believe in one, does it not follow you beieve in them all (technically speaking, that is)?

It's enough to do my head right in. Think I'll go worship a tin can or something. :crazy:

[smirkymonkey]

59. That is exactly what runs through my

mind over the whole issue! I can get the concept of God, it's just all the other stuff that confuses me.

Maybe a tin can would make more sense!! :)

[Rabrrrrrr]

63. Rabrrrrrr's quick and dirty explanation of the Trinity and God=Jesus thing

I'll be leaving out some subtleties, and of course this will be incomplete, but in a nutshell, this is how it works.

There is God - the God guy/woman that we hear about.

God has three, for lack of a better term, facets: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

The Father is, one can say, the creative aspect of God.

The Son, of course, is Jesus, who is the Christ - the redeemer, and also the Son of God.

The Holy Spirit is God's power - it's the spirit that calls us together into the Church, calls us to mission, brings us love, empowers us to have courage in adversity, etc. It's kind of like The Force, though not so controllable, and it acts on its own a lot more.

And to further help with the God/Jesus thing: Jesus was, according to orthodox (NOT capital-O Orthodox, but small-o orthodox) Christian teaching and understanding, fully human and fully divine. That is, Jesus WAS God on earth. So on the cross, we have God - God saying to a sinful humanity "here is how much I love you - I am letting you crucify me" and then God died, but raised himself from the dead, thus conquering death and the stain of sin and showing us our forgiveness so that, as I see it, we would stop making up rules and laws and trying to discern who is more holy than the other, since we're all God's children equally, and all God really wants from us is to love God, and to love and show mercy and compassion to all human beings. Not to worry about who is praying best or properly, or who has banned Disney from their family video collection, or whether one is sufficently anti-gay or pro-peace or anti-violence or pro-women wearing skirts.

Remember, theologians have written entire VOLUMES on the trinity, so this is quick and dirty. But it's the basic nutshell understanding, so hopefully will help you out.

[dolo amber]

67. Hey, thanks Rabrrrrrr

I was beginning to think that post was gonna go unanswered. :)

Can't say that clears it up entirely, but it's a start.

[Indiana_Dem]

20. Wow, you guys pretty much summed it up!

I'm not so good at summarizing the differences.

Let me give you my experience with fundamentalism/charismaticism:

I grew up without any church upbringing/foundation except that Jesus was born on Christmas and He died on the cross at Easter. My grandmother taught me the Lord's prayer when I spent the night with her and that was the extent of my religious education.

I always had a believe in the existence of God and by the time I was 21 and married, I began to search for the "truth". I didn't want to go to church just because of social reasons or just to be going. So my first experience in a church happened to be when a co-worker offered to take me to her church. It happened to be a charismatic church which was nothing I had ever experienced before. It was kind of like you would feel going to one of those self-improvement motivational programs with charismatic speakers. Well, that's what happened and everyone was so nice and welcoming although the speaking in tongues thing was a little wierd at first, I thought. I ended up spending almost 5 years there before I grew enough in knowing scripture that some of what they were teaching was not what I was interpreting in the Bible. I couldn't take the literal meanings of Noah's Ark and creation as the total story. I could nowhere in the Bible interpret any "secret rapture" that they taught. I also went as far as to knock on doors to "win souls" for Christ. Soon, I found out this wasn't the route to go as the church never seemed to materially provide to the poor community the way the Catholics or the other denominations did. Talk was cheap, I felt. So, I eventually left the church without becoming a member but I did accomplish getting baptized and giving my heart to Christ.

The First Assembly is a church that is good for winning souls but beyond that its other goal is money contributions and church building. They win souls with charisma. They support all the things a fundamentalist believes except for maybe the speaking in tongues and the way you dress (you can dress any way you like).

I even listened to what Jehovah Witness's and Mormons had to say as they knocked on my door. One time, a Mormon gave me a very informative book on all the world religions and what they each believed. I still go back and look at it if I'm unsure about a certain faith's beliefs. It's a good reference book. But the Mormons are totally "out there". They have a whole different set of books book they use other than the Bible.

The Catholics and Episcopalians are similar to each other. The Catholics believe in Christ but they also worship Mary and many other Saints. They are very ritualistic. Their faith is based more upon works in getting your way into Heaven. You can even pray someone into Heaven I think. Correct me if I'm wrong. They believe in a holding place after death called purgatory which does have some truth in some scripture but it's not real clear to me yet.

Next, Martin Luther (Lutherans) broke off from catholicism and I forget why but they don't worship Mary and the other Saints like the Catholics do. I think they believed in more of a destiny-type thinking. I think they believe you are destined to be saved or not and there's not much you can do to change what is in God's will. Anybody, correct me if I'm wrong.

I think the presbyterians and methodists and baptists all came about the same era, too. They all have minor differences but enough to have separated because of their beliefs. Correct me again if I'm wrong.

Can't tell you much about 7th Day Adventists except they believe in church on Saturday not Sunday!

Then, like the poster said above, there is the Unitarian church and also the Church of Scientology. These were too cultish for me to look into when I read a little about them.

The Amish and the German Baptists were too conservative for me as I didn't want to have to stop wearing makeup and wear dresses the rest of my life! So I never looked into their belief system. Their appearance was enough to scare me away.

I know the others summed things better than me but these are my experiences and what I've learned over the years.

I've kind of gathered my own beliefs between what I read and self-interpret in the Bible and what different interpretations I receive from what I search out. I believe in many of the fundamentalist ideas: Christ died on the cross for man's sin, Christ overwrote the traditional Judeo law of the 10 commandments and said "Love your God" and "Love your brother" which is what I try to go by, that you're saved by faith and not by works but you will be judged on judgement day your works but it won't cast you out of heaven, that the only unpardonable sin is that you don't believe in Christ dying for your sins, etc.

Where I part with fundies and charismatics is on separation of church and state, pro-life/pro-choice issues, war, their secret rapture theory, faith-based initiatives, and I question their GLBT beliefs. I believe God gave us a free will that includes the free will to choose to believe in Him or not to believe in Him--sobeit that religious morals should not be legislated in favor of one groups will over another. One should have the free will to choose things like abortion vs. no abortion, leading the GL lifestyle or not. Who am I to judge? That's why I believe in separation of church and state.

Well, I know you didn't ask to hear my opinion. I just wanted to share with you that not all fundamentalists are the way you think.

Even though I believe the only way to heaven is through Christ doesn't mean I'm going to condemn anyone else because they don't think that way. I'm not that way. The commandment is to love one another and that's what I try to do regardless of my own beliefs.

[youngred]

43. Overall great summary

But Catholics don't "worship" Mary and the saints, rather many see them as intermediaries who work on our behalf.

Purgatory is for those who have sinned but not enough to go to hell, the potentially redeemables. Its the source of much debate within the church though

[Indiana_Dem]

47. You're right. I just read that in another post....

I meant what you said about Mary and other Saints as being intermediaries. I didn't mean to say "worship" although from the outside sometimes it does appear that way. I've heard many say this before.

As a protestant, I see Christ as being the only mediary and the only path to salvation because He was the only one born without sin into flesh then to the grave (Hell) then rose into Heaven and sits at the right hand of God interceding/cleaning our prayers to the Father. I don't say this to create opposition but to point out the differences between religious beliefs as the poster asked in this thread.

[youngred]

50. Yeah, I understand that as well

I don't think Jesus is the only way to get to heaven (as I can think of so many deserving souls who are not Christian and cannot fathom God condemning them to an eternity out of her presence (hell) for not recognizing Jesus).

I know it appears that there is much "worship" of Mary and the saints by Catholics, but that is why I promote learning about other faiths because it helps you grow in your own and to understand where others are coming from.

:-)

[ProdigalJunkMail]

51. purgatory?

Maybe my catechism is not up to speed...but I am curious as to the scriptural reference for purgatory...I really don't understand where that notion comes from. Can you educate me as to why there is a belief in purgatory? I (being raised protestant) have never seen a reference for it outside the Catholic church...

thanks for helping me with my curiosity

theProdigal

[youngred]

52. There isn't a scriptural passage

which is why its debated so much to this day. It was a theory advanced by St. Augustine as a 'middle-ground' so to speak between heaven and hell.

[afraid_of_the_dark]

25. And they all hate the Catholics.

:shrug:

[skippysmom]

26. why is that anyway?

My husband's grandmother is a fundie and I wonder if she thinks I'm the anti-Christ because I'm a Catholic.

[afraid_of_the_dark]

28. The reason I got from some fundie friends of mine...

is that we don't have the emphasis on Bible study that the rest of the Christians do. Catholics, as a whole, don't know much about the Bible, except for the excerpts read during Mass. And also, I think that we differ on which translation should be the accepted translation, but I could just be making that part up. :)

Some don't like the infant baptism thing, others don't like that we take the "This is my Body/Blood" lines literally (i.e., don't believe in the transubstantiation bit). I'm sure there are others, but these are just off of the top of my head.

[Rabrrrrrr]

32. They also see Catholics as Mary worshippers, which,

we have to admit, looking at the Catholic Church can be an easy thing to misunderstand. And then there is also the statue worshipping, the saint venerating, the holy relics to be kissed, the ecclesial rings to be kissed, etc.


They also and especially don't like Catholics because they have a Pope, a person who stands in between humanity and Jesus/God - which is also a critique from the protestant world as a whole. All people have a direct link to God, a direct line of communication; the Catholic Church, especially as the fundamentalists see it, has set up priests to be equal to Christ. We should (the fundies would say, and also a large sum of all protestants) be able to confess our sins directly to God, and not have to go to a Priest; then God will forgive us - no human has the power to forgive us of our sins, and as it appears, the Catholic Church is structured such that the Priests are the ones who determine who is forgiven and who isn't.

So the fundies have some legitimate complaints and critiques against the Catholic Church.

Until you get into the real serious ones who don't see the Catholics as wrong in terms of interpretation but otherwise oakaym, but see the Pope as the Devil Himself and the Catholic Church as an evil cult hell-bent on the destruction of as many souls as possible.

[afraid_of_the_dark]

34. Thanks... I had forgotten some of those.

The problem is that there are some Catholics who toe the boundary of statue worshipping, and praying to vs. praying through the saints and Mary. But having an intermediary between the individual and God is also one of the major areas of disagreement.

And what about the issues of indulgences? (plenary and the other kind I can't remember right now?) I know that this is criticized as "buying your way into heaven."


Edit: poor grammar. :)

[progressiverealist]

30. basically, the terms Fundie and Christian are melding into one.

It wasn't always this way, but the religious right is successfully hijacking Christianity. Mainline protestant congregations are slowly dying or else lurching hard to the right in an attempt to compete with the huge non-denominational "mega churches" and storefront "praise halls."

As a Lutheran, I can see this happening quickly in my congregation, one that had been very, very progressive in the past. Our family is leaving the church, much to the dismay of my wife's right-wing parents.

[smirkymonkey]

56. Yes, I think where I get confused is

with those huge fundamentalist "mega-churches" - are they any particular denomination or are they just a "christian church"?

Also, the Jesus, God, triune God thing confuses me as well.

Serious right wing fundies really scare me, I just don't want to automatically dismiss people who are Christian, but practice their faith quietly and walk thier talk. It's just hard to tell the difference these days.

[noonwitch]

31. Fundamentalist/Evangelical/Mainstream Protestantism/Liberal Christianity

Fundamentalist: Believes that the Bible is word for word the WORD OF GOD. No allegories, no analogies, everything described happened exactly that way. No women preachers, because Paul, while speaking for God, decided women needed to be quiet in church. The words of Paul are considered to be the words of God. The Psalms of David are considered the words of God. If your beliefs are different from theirs at all, they consider you hellbound.

Evangelical: Believes that it is the responsiblity of all christians to spread the word to non-believers. Usually fundamentalists, but I've met my share of liberal evangelicals.

Mainstream/Mainline protestants: The traditional protestant churches like the United Methodist, Presbytarian USA, Episcopalian, Lutheran, and the United Church of Christ. Generally the churches are not evangelical in nature, although some members may have evangelical beliefs. They accept evolution as a legitimate theory that does not interfere with their belief that God created the world, because they understand allegories. Generally, the mainstream denominations do not believe that the Bible is the infallible word of God, that it is stories about God written down by humans.

Liberal Christianity: Very similar to Mainstream denominations, and crosses over with that category frequently. The UCC is probably the most liberal of the strictly christian denominations. They ordain gays, women, support human rights and affirmative action, do not condemn abortion, and are generally opposed to war. I'd lump Unity in with this group, and Unitarians, even though the latter are not christians and Unity is metaphysical christianity.


Other categories that cross over and around:

Charismatic/Pentecostal: Pentecost was when the holy spirit descended upon the apostles after Jesus death, resurrection and ascension. (Acts 2). At that time, the gathered apostles were given the gift of "tongues". If one reads the scripture in it's context, one can see that the gift was that of speaking other languages in order to spread the message of Christianity. The charismatics and pentecostals have interpreted speaking in tongues to mean that the believer is overtaken by the spirit and speaks in a nonsensical language that only God understands. Paul didn't exactly clarify this in his letters to the Corinthians. He just said none of those special gifts are important if the believer does not have love.
Most tv preachers are charasmatics/pentecostals, but they tone it down for broader viewing. A good example is Pat Robertston. An example of a pentecostal denomination is The Assemblies of God, but there are many other smaller groups and "non-denominational" churches.

Catholics: Believes the pope is God's man on earth. The rest of it is pretty much common knowledge.

Mormons: Watch the South Park episode. Jesus came to America and told his story to the native americans, who were really a lost tribe of Israel. Fun stuff! Truly an American religion.

Jehovah's Witnesses: Fundamentalists, for sure. So much so that the biblical prohibitions of cannibalism are applied to blood transfusions. No holidays or birthdays are recognized and all fun is suspicious. They stick by each other, but will shun someone like Hester Prynne for the slightest heresy, except Michael Jackson, who still appears to be in good standing with his Kingdom Hall.

[Indiana_Dem]

39. Thanks! That was so much better than I said it! n/t

[Indiana_Dem]

41. There was another belief I forgot to add:

regarding those who believe that it's blaspheme to say Jesus was God and to believe in a Trinity. The belief is either held by the 7th Day Adventists or Jehovah Witnesses, I can't remember. That one made me think. I still don't know what I believe on that one.

[smirkymonkey]

57. Thank you! That was a

great rundown and really makes a lot of sense to me! :)

[Az]

33. Not a Christian but have experience with both

I suspect the primary difference between a full out fundimentalist Christian and a nonfundie Christian has to do with there reaction to the post modern social enviroment.

500 years ago the churches ruled with absolute authority. They had control of life and death. It was the age of enlightenment brought by the necessities of a diverse culture that broke their hold. The humanist movement took hold and rights were developed. The bulk of Christianity soon adopted these notions of rights. But the churches and their internal structures still adhered to the notion that they held the absolute answers and authority.

Thus over the years these two cultural notions have vied with each other. On the one hand you have the people of the post modern mentality. They realise that this society is made up of a multitude of beliefs. It is only by working together and not forcing ones beliefs that the society can function.

The rise of the fundimentalist has brought with it its notion of absolute authority. They believe that theirs is the only way. They have unfortunately also learned how to use the machinations of the post modern movement and cast theirselves as the oppressed in order to assert their beliefs on others.

[smirkymonkey]

58. I think you hit the nail on the head with the

term "absolute authority" and I think that is what frightens me so much and it seems to be what the issue is today in our country - The authority of the church over the state or vice versa. Thanks!

[La Lioness Priyanka]

35. one difference i have observed

fundamental christians put far more emphasis on the words of paul and the other apostles than they do in what Jesus actually said..so leviticus is far more important than when jesus says "let he who has not sinned cast the first stone etc"

[smirkymonkey]

60. So why do they spend so much time

talking about "Jesus" and "Christ" and not refer to themselves as Paulists??

Also, sounds like Paul was one pretty f**ed up guy.

[GreenPartyVoter]

36. There's Christian and then there's Fundamentalist

I've been told I need to get hold of a book called "Meeting Jesus Again for the First Time", that it helps to debunk many of the Fundamentalist myths that have been tacked onto the Bible.

Also, I have a website of Liberal Christian links and Scripture. Feel free to peruse. :)

http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/liberalchristians.htm



As a liberal Christian, I differ from the fundies in that:

I think the earth is ancient and that God created evolution, and that we do not have dominion over the Earth but rather stewardship of it.

I think homosexuality is not a sin (I even suspect Christ may have leaned that way)

I think abortion is awful but won't have it stricken from the law books because yes, women will grab coat hangers, and no it's not right to make a 13 year old girl give birth to her own brother or sister.

I believe that the government should play a role in lifting people out of poverty because no church or groups of churches can reach far enough (nor would all of them reach out to the "unwanteds" of society.. even though that is EXACTLY what the Lord did.)

I believe in Jesus, believe He is God, but I do not believe that He is THE way but rather A way to heaven. (It doesn't matter what you call God. He just IS and He is what everyone who speaks of God is referring to.)

Also, am adding that I believe in Purgatory rather than an eternal Hell.

Love, Peace, and Blessings

~Jen

[GreenPartyVoter]

38. Kick

[youngred]

44. I'd recommend the book "Rescuing the Bible From Fundamentalism"

by Archbishop Shelby Sprong (last name may be off). It's a relatively short book (only like 100 pages) and explains the difference between fundie beliefs and those of mainstream Christianity very very well

[Bill McBlueState]

45. John Shelby Spong

He's the retired Episcopal bishop of Newark. He has a ton of books that explain liberal Christianity pretty well, in terms that a non-expert can understand.

Here is a list of his books on Amazon.

[youngred]

46. Thanks for the clarification

I've read a couple of his books and find them to be fantastic

[BlackVelvetElvis]

53. That's a great book

He holds the viewpoint that Paul had himself castrated in order to attain the "kingdom of heaven".

[beyurslf]

48. I can usually tell the difference.

Right wing crazy christians have to make sure you know they are a christian. Doesn't matter what you are talking about, they have make sure it comes up. You know the ones... the people at work or whereever that seem to bring up their religion at every turn. I stay away from those.


The others are the "normal" people. Their religious views wouldn't be known to you on a normal basis. You may get into a conversation and it coudl come up. Otherwise, you could know them for years and not know where they go to church or if they do.

[BlackVelvetElvis]

54. I hate that smugness in Fundies

and the way they try to cram their beliefs down your throat. Their Bible speaks that you should pray in solitude, not out in the open. I think they forgot that part.

[smirkymonkey]

61. Thanks everyone for the great suggestions

and references for more information. I would really like to become more educated on this topic.

Peace to all!

[lagniappe]

65. I was raised Catholic...

in New Orleans and went to an all boy Catholic high school. There was none of the nonsense you see today. They taught evolution, computer science, physics, and even sex education. My experience was generally positive, and it is a shame that the sex scandals occurred. All the brothers and priests I knew were genuinely dedicated to helping the poor and following the *actual* teachings of Jesus. You know, the things about forgiveness and let the first person without sin cast the first stone.

It wasn't until I moved to Texas that I got a real taste of southern fundamentalism. These people believe in a literal translation of the bible - from Genesis to Revelations. Of course, when you bring up the 'Thy shall not kill' commandment, it is open to interpretation. These people despise the Catholic church. They believe that Christians require only a belief in Jesus – good works are not required. You can be the meanest sob on the planet, and if you simply say 'I believe', then you will be saved. I think they justify basically any hateful action because they have convinced themselves that faith alone is the ticket.

It's ironic, because when I lived in a Catholic area such as New Orleans, I never really had a problem with Christianity. It wasn't until I started working with fundamentalists in Texas that I started to question my beliefs. The whole idea of eternal hell for a non-Christian while Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell get eternal paradise seems insane to me now.