Is this stealing?

[Xithras]

My wife says yes, I say no. Looking for input.

Last weeks storms here in California blew over a good-sized ash tree near my office. The city crews came out, chopped the tree into some manageable sized chunks, and dragged the resulting pile into the median along the curb, where it now sits waiting for another city hauling crew to pick it up. I took one look at that big chopped up tree and thought FIREWOOD! There's at least two (and probably more) cords of wood there, and I just paid $95 a cord a couple of months ago.

So I called the city tree division and asked their phone person whether I could take it. After putting me on hold for 20 minutes while asking around, the person came back and told me this: "For your safety, we ask the public to avoid city brush and debris piles. People have been injured in them before." That's all fine and dandy, but it wasn't a yes or a no...and personally I'm not all that concerned with my safety in this case. I've taken trees down before and cut them into firewood, so relocating already-cut chunks of the wood into my trailer isn't really an issue.

So I told my wife that, absent a NO from the city, I'm taking my trailer over tonight to load it up. My wife freaked out, said it's stealing, and is afraid I'm going to get arrested. Her position is that it's not my tree, not my property, and therefore there is no legal way for me to take it without written permission.

My position is that it's a publicly owned tree that fell in a public space, has been cut by a government employee for easy transport, and is now sitting alongside a public roadway in a public median. If I, as a member of the public, want to load up some of that debris and take it home, how is that stealing?

So who's right?

[LibraLiz1973]

1. You

Look, you called and asked. They didn't say it was illegal.

[redqueen]

2. You.

You called and they didn't say, "No, that's ours." They only cited safety concerns. As long as you don't injure yourself and try to sue, I see nothing wrong with harvesting the fallen tree pieces. :)

[flvegan]

3. Is it stealing? No. Might it be illegal? Possibly.

Technically, it is trash on public ground. The question is if you'd be charged if caught. Highly, highly unlikely.

The DLF (Debris Liberation Front) needs you. Go.

[TreasonousBastard]

4. Depends on how anal the town is...

and maybe some union guys' paranoia about you doing their job.

I know of people who have been arrested for dumpster diving, and fired for diving into their company's dumpster. Towns can get even wierder about this.

Personally, I think you're doing the town a small favor (probably unappreciated, since you'll be leaving some of it there) but if the town was going to sell the wood, or get some other benefit out of keeping it, you're stealing if you take it without permission.

But, the person at the town didn't say you couldn't take it, just said they were worried about liability issues. If she was right, an iffy proposition for sure, then no problem grabbing your free firewood.

[Xithras]

5. The city mulches it.

They have a tree program where residents can leave branches alongside the road once a month for free removal (it encourages people to plant trees on their property). Those branches, and debris from fallen trees like this one, are taken to a city yard where they are chipped and mulched. The mulch is used in park and median landscaping around the city. It's actually a pretty cool program.

So I guess you could say that I am depriving them of mulch, which would have a cash value. Hrmm.

[pitohui]

6. it sounds like a cool way to spread disease

i would rather you use the fallen tree for firewood than have it mulched, if you think about it logically, if the tree fell as a result of disease, the mulch probably doesn't need to be spread around town -- i don't know if wind was the only cause of the tree fall or if it was already ill and this made it susceptible to the wind, do you?

i have never been arrested for dumpster diving nor do i know anyone who has but i suppose it might happen once in a billio times

:shrug:

i don't see the problem and you DID ask and seems like they basically told you that it's OK but they're not legally allowed to admit that it's OK

use reasonable care and don't cut your foot off and i just don't see the problem

[DarkTirade]

7. If they didn't say you weren't allowed to, then I don't see why you wouldn't be.

[Fleshdancer]

8. I don't think it's stealing

and I think they gave you the answer they did for liability reasons. :shrug:

[Drum]

9. You are right,

as well as being resourceful. :thumbsup:

[Xithras]

10. An interesting addendum here.

In addition to posting this question on DU, I also asked one of my co-workers. He looked at me like I was an idiot and told me, "Why don't you just call the POLICE and ask them?!?!" So I did.

The officer was nice enough about it, but he was honest. He said that if any city workers called the police and stated that someone was stealing city firewood, they WOULD arrest me for theft. He doubted the city would be interested in prosecuting, but as he put it, "You'd still spend an hour or two here while we processed and released you." At that point in the conversation, I was thinking that the debate was over...you'd leave the wood alone too after a revelation like that, right?

Then the officer let's this one loose: "Personally, I'd suggest that you wait until after 6 o'clock. All of the city workers should be home by then, so there won't be anyone to call us. None of our officers are going to mess with you for picking up pieces of a tree."

Lol! I think that officer just encouraged me to skirt the law! I'm getting the wood...but I'll wait until 6:30 to be safe :) Thanks for your responses everyone!

[pitohui]

11. you go! enjoy your firewood

sounds to me like they really want you to have it, just aren't allowed to say so

enjoy

[Dangerously Amused]

12. No, it is not stealing.

You proceeded in a reasonable manner by first speaking to a representative of the city. In relaying the answer to you, the representative acted as an agent of the city and the city is therefore legally bound to the agent's answer. The answer consisted of a precatory statement, ie, simply expressed a desire but did not state a rule. You acted in good faith and reliance upon that statement. Therefore, you did not/will not be stealing.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

13. Once trash is at the curb, it's public domain...

Cops can even go through your trash and use it against you without a warrant. :shrug:
You're right. She's wrong.
Duckie