Intro to American Government...for advanced law students... (a rant)

[huskerlaw]

I'm teaching Advanced Legal Research this year and I'm thinking ahead to our second class (what? the first class isn't until Thursday, I'm a freakin' week ahead!) and I'm trying to figure out how to give an Intro to American Government lecture without sounding completely condescending.

The thing is, an alarming number of students do not know the following things:

1. Which branch of government a statute, regulation, or case law comes from (I kid you not)
2. What the structure of the United States court system looks like (i.e. trial court, intermediate court, supreme court)
3. Consequently, they also don't know that some states have different names for these courts (New York, I'm lookin' at you)
4. How the doctrine of stare decisis works. That is, when a court issues an opinion, what other courts are bound by said decision, which would find it persuasive, and which would laugh you out of a courtroom if you tried to use it as any type of authority

I'm finding that I think these are things that an upper level law student should just KNOW. And I'm at a loss on how to teach it.

Also, I'd like to claim that this is due to an incredible failing of the state's school system, but it's not. We've got people who have undergrad degrees from Harvard and Yale (in Political Science!) who don't understand this stuff!

So...any suggestions? Anybody got an ultra-fabulous American Government 101 website that's not meant for 5-year-olds? Anything?

:banghead:

[MrCoffee]

1. are you teaching at Bob's School of Law and Small Engine Repair?

you need a thicker wall. you're gonna bust right through that one.

[huskerlaw]

2. Nope!

I'm at a perfectly respectable, ABA-approved law school.

And I don't think this problem is limited to us, as our students come from undergrad schools all across the country.

I know, it's alarming.

[TheCentepedeShoes]

3. Even paralegal studies

would cover 1,2 and 4 (not necessarily 3 except for the state in which one is studying - I'm guessing it's something like Trial Part, like on L&O??)
I did a couple of paralegal classes but it's been a while so please don't quiz me 'bro :hide:

[Tafiti]

4. Wow.

All of this is covered on the first day of LRW, and repeatedly seen throughout the first semester of law school in all the other classes. How does a law student get through first semester without knowing such things? These are things that a 1L should know, and early on, let alone an upper level law student. Very elementary concepts.

How do you know there are students that don't understand the things you mentioned, and how many? I would have to think it's no more than a handful, and covering them in an advanced legal research class would be laughable to the rest.

If it's truly that bad, I'd forget about whether you'll sound condescending or not, because that's just pathetic, IMHO.

[driver8]

5. huskerlaw, where do you teach? n/t

[liberaltrucker]

6. Some terms are over my head, but I get your drift

Your rant just sums up the state of education in
our Country today, regardless of field. I have no
advise, only good vibes and good luck.

:hug:

[rug]

7. Don't blame them. They came of age with Bush v. Gore.

[Coyote_Bandit]

8. Fear

is a great motivator. You don't need to worry about sounding condescending if your students realize their ignorance.

My tax prof once asked a question in class asking who had done the computations on a footnote some 100 pages ahead of the case we were discussing. He went down the seating chart through about half the class. Everybody was scrambling and trying to come up with an answer to satisfy him. Nobody including the CPA's answered to his satisfaction. He then closed his casebook and walked out of the class without saying a word. Got our attention.

Asshole never answered the question - not even when folks met with him in his office and asked for help. He did however put it on our final exam and it accounted for fully one half of our final grade.

I also had a property prof who would sometimes respond to questions by citing page and footnote from Moynihan's Introduction to the Law of Real Property. This guy dressed in black on exam days - and it was the only time he ever wore black. His curve averaged about 30 points. He was also prone to randomly checking briefs to asacertain who was and wasn't using canned briefs.

Good luck.....and don't have too much fun.....

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

9. I teach an undergrad law course

(in a specialized area), and I always start out with sources of law, the Constitution, etc., and it's really amazing how little they know about the structure of our government and even what's in the Constitution. Isn't anybody teaching this shit in high school any more?

It's doubly amazing that law students are so clueless. Aren't a lot of them history or poli-sci majors who would have learned that info as undergrads? And aren't your students taking Con Law now (if it's their first year)? Wow.

[Haole Girl]

10. I'm too stupid for this thread...

but I wanted to say hi and good luck! :hi:

[cabraverde]

11. I just earned my B.A. in Pol.Sci.

I know what you mean , there were a bunch of people in my classes who were idiots. The suprising thing is that many of them actualy got really good grades. They could retain the knowlege just long enough to pass a test, than the next day it was simply gone, evaporated into the ether.

(yeah Im in NY too, lol, we are supreme)

[otherlander]

12. My HS doesn't teach a civics class anymore.

I know 1 and 2.

3 and 4, not so much.
:hide:

[LeftyMom]

13. Can you find something geared toward a undergrad "Law and Society" or "Business Law" course?

I know we covered all of that.

Poli Sci instructors often assume kids know the structure of American gov't from high school, and go straight to theory, in my experience. They really shouldn't make that assumption (they also assume their students follow the news, and that's also totally wrong more often than not. )

[Chovexani]

14. Jesus, I've got a GED and I know most of that

Damn your kids are dumb.

[Ellen Forradalom]

15. I don't know this stuff

But I never went to law school.

[CreekDog]

16. That's what you get for teaching law at Regent University!

:rofl:

[Flaxbee]

17. OK, the first two are alarming if a student in

Advanced Legal Research is clueless. The second two - not so much a big deal -- a few of those 'details' that many civ pro, crim pro, etc., classes don't cover, or just assume you already know if you're in law school. But where would you learn these things, if not in law school?

Sometimes people enter law school - even with a PoliSci degree - having no real clue about how the system works. Number one on your list is BASIC civics, but perhaps it isn't taught anymore. And if the student never saw "SchoolHouse Rock", then they're doomed. ;-) I think there were some very, very basic things I had absolutely NO IDEA about when I entered law school. I asked my classmates and the librarian, but I was also intimidated and afraid I'd look stupid (so much pressure in first year).

My political science classes never focused on the mundane, but necessary, bread-and-butter stuff. It was all theory, comparative politics, etc.

And then, by the time a student has advanced so far, they're often ignorant of what they're ignorant about, you know? Or just afraid to ask, because most people would assume the student knew that stuff already.

If I were you, I'd approach it perfectly straighforwardly - as if you *were* teaching 5 year olds. Just say that you've noticed some students might have missed a few of the basics -- understandable when complicated issues like law are being discussed - and you want to make sure that everyone is on the same page. You're not trying to be condescending, and you don't want to waste their time, but there are some things everyone needs to know so that you can teach them properly. Don't ask who knows what - too humiliating. Just say here are the basics - set up a flow chart or two, hand them out, go over them and move on:

1 - Legislature (state *and* fed; fed is house and senate - make sure they know the difference between various state and federal houses); administrative bodies, courts etc. If your school teaches classes on admin law, or the legislative process, whatever, as electives, mention those to the students.
2 - Court structure, that the fed structure is this, that states can do any variety of things, the purpose of the federal circuits and the states they encompass...

... and on and on. Can you devise an assignment on stare decisis?


Anyway - I guess I'm not surprised. I'd think the PoliSci majors would know more, but one of my professors looooved to talk about Azerbaijan, and honest to god, I don't think he ever talked about anything else.

Good luck, whatever you end up doing! :hi:

[Kat45]

18. I have a poli sci degree and I don't know the last two

They never covered the court systems in our classes.

[philosophie_en_rose]

19. Could you just assign the material and assume they know?

You could still lecture to review the material and say "I know you all know this, but just to review. . . " However, they're law students and should be capable of learning the background material for whatever lesson you're teaching.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

20. It's amazing how ignorant law students can be.

I know. I grew up in a law office, and my fellow law students had no idea about the history of the Constitution, the various justices on the Supreme Court, even recent trends like the liberalism of the Warren Court. It was amazing. They just went to law school because it was something respectable to do.

The Republicans have wanted to do away with stare decisis, the idea that case law is just as controlling as statute law, and can even overrule statute law, which was established in Marbury versus Madison, in 1803, for a very long time.

[UrbScotty]

21. I don't understand stare decesis

But I have understood the others since middle school and earlier.

[Oeditpus Rex]

22. Go all Kingsfield on their little pink asses

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qHEBABE6PU

:evilgrin:

[TreasonousBastard]

23. I'm not a lawyer or a teacher, but...

I know all but the most technical parts of #4.

And, I learned it in 8th Grade! We had a Civics book, and we had oughta knowed what was in there, or else.

While not knowing exactly how law courses work, I would think just assume they know all this stuff, and if they don't, screw 'em. The student has the ultimate responsibility to prepare for a course, or catch up if unprepared.

(Seems like a natural for a course in legal research.)