Question about tipping...

[YellowRubberDuckie]

Ok, so you're at a restaurant. You're halfway through your meal. Your glass of tea is empty, and you'd like a refill. Your server is over at another table, sitting, laughing, goofing off. You smile at him, get eye contact, but he ignores you. There's not a manager in sight. You've finished your meal, your server comes over, drops your check, and disappears again...What do you do?

[greatauntoftriplets]

1. Leave 15 percent,

and complain to the manager.

[Susang]

245. Hi GAT!!

I'm glad to see your intelligent and informed opinion on this subject. On an earlier thread of this nature I thought I was a lone voice crying in the wilderness. No one wanted to hear how poorly the industry treats their employees, preferring to believe that bad service is solely the waitperson's fault and that withholding a tip is the correct way to comment on said service.
:loveya:

[southerngirlwriter]

2. To me, the key words are these:

"get eye contact, he ignores you."

That's worthy of a total stiff -- no tip -- AND a complaint to the manager.

If you get bad service because someone is obviously overworked or under-trained or fairly new, that's a time for mercy and good humor.

Eye contact and deliberately ignoring? They deserve the wrath of the consumer.

[TXlib]

200. Combined with:

Laughing and goofing off.

Yes, if s/he's new/overworked, that's a case for mercy.

But if the server has time to dick around, makes eye contact with you, and continues to ignore, I'd say: stiff the fucker, and complain to the manager.

Why would you leave a 15% tip? I can understand if you'd leave at least 8%, since the IRS assumes that, so if you leave less, your server is getting taxed on a tip that wasn't left.

But to leave a standard tip for substandard service, well, you DESERVE to have the server treat you with contempt!

[LynneSin]

3. I'll always leave a tip, but it won't be a big tip

and I'll bitch to the manager too.

[Susang]

243. That is the correct answer

By tipping at least something, you don't harm the other tipped employees that the server must tip out and by speaking to the manager, you get your voice heard and hopefully the situation will not happen again.

[JohnnyAmerica]

266. Tip based on service

I have worked in the restaurant business as a bartender and server for twenty years. I am damn good at it and make a fine income. I made a post in another, related thread about service where I stated that the level of service has declined in the past several years, as has the expectation of service. While I get older (a member of AARP, enough said) the average age of workers remains the same, 19 to 22. I have noticed that the work ethic of this group has declined generally to a point where they don’t want to do the amount of work that the job requires. This leads, IMHO, to a skipping of the small steps that lead to a good dining experience. The more skipped steps, the more diminished your experience becomes. Your tip should be diminished accordingly.
I view myself as an independent contractor. When I get to work, I am given a territory consisting of 4-6 tables. The restaurant will provide me guests who will order food and beverage in exchange for money. My job is to make them spend as much money as possible and then provide the correct food and beverage in a timely and professional manner. My income depends on how well I perform those tasks. I control my income, nobody else. I do a bad job and get a bad tip, I just shrug it off and move on.
Also in that other thread, mention was made of “entitlement”. Guests feel entitled to whatever they want, irrespective of anybody else. Well, that cuts both ways. Servers now feel entitled to a good tip, no matter the level of service provided. When did personal responsibility get replaced with entitlement? That’s a topic for another discussion, I think.

When you go into a department store and get bad service from the clerks, you don’t get to pay less for your purchases. But, when you go into a restaurant and get bad service, you get to pay less by leaving a smaller tip.

[Rabrrrrrr]

267. Bless you for that!

I, too, don't understand the entitlement speak of some people. "I deserve a tip because I am here."

Pfagh.

[Pithlet]

269. In a perfect world where everyone tipped

and tipped according to service, I would agree with you. But, that's not how it seems to work. I don't know too many people who actually tip like I do. I get a lot of surprised looks from others. I don't think a lot of people appreciate it when they receive good service. Many tip badly even when the service is superb.

I'm not saying that wait staff should look at tips as an entitlement. However, I do not view a basic, livable wage as entitlement. I view it as a necessity, for anyone employed. There are too many cheapskates out there to rely solely on a tip system, IMO.

[Susang]

277. Hmmm...

Sounds suspiciously like the age-old conflict between generations, the older bemoaning the lack of work ethic and seriousness in the younger, when in fact, nothing has changed. Plate was complaining about the youth of his time and how they did not work as hard as his generation had. We like to think things were vastly different in our youth, but in fact they were almost exactly the same as they are now with only a few surface differences.

When you get bad service from a clerk in a store, you don't get to literally take money out of their pocket. Perspective is everything.

[Shrek]

4. Get up, find the server

And politely point out the empty glasses on the table. Shame him into doing his job.

I've done it several times before and it's never failed.

[camero]

5. Bad service means no tip

Good service is a 50% tip. I'm not obligated to tip. They have to earn it.

[Taeger]

13. You are socially obligated

You are socially obligated to tip a server in a restaurant. 15% for good service is the accepted norm.

Personally, if my water glass goes empty and STAYS empty, the tip will be whatever change I get from the nearest dollar.

If you get shitty service, you want to leave something so they know you didn't just forget. If the manager has them working too many tables, they will get more shitty tips per hour and it all works out even.

Finally, I'd like to quote Bill Maher on tip jars.

He talked about how everybody has tip jars now. His take is that he's not entitled to tip for just everything especially fast food preparation. You tip when someone waits on you. If you wait in line to get your food, you're waiting ON THEM. I agree. No more tipping at LaBambas.

[camero]

15. No I am not

A tip is extra from the bill. Not a part of it. I used to drive a cab and I didn't much care whether I got a tip or not. Most did. Some didn't. Maybe they just didn't have the money that day. The little extras that you do as a part of your job is what a tip is for. Not for not doing your job.

If they want to make more than $2.30 an hour they should unionize.

[OhioStateProgressive]

49. what I did

before I quit I made a billing policy that allowed the waitresses to automatically add 15% to the final bill if they thought there was a chance the person wouldn't leave that big of a tip...automatic gratuity...I found out it was legal so I installed it

[camero]

58. Another reason why I rarely eat out.

Along with the known health risks.

[OhioStateProgressive]

73. not eating out is the responsible thing to do then

if people aren't willing to tip 15% minimum guaranteed they should eat at McDonalds

[camero]

75. I don't feel like dying

Before someone is in my face demanding money. Screw McDonald's at least I don't get sick there.

[OhioStateProgressive]

76. i wouldn't eat there either:)

but I am serious, if you are sitting down to eat a meal at a restaurant, you should pay a 15% gratuity, anything else is akin to expecting the cadillac at the chevy prices

[camero]

77. If the waiter treats me like shit

and I get sick from the meal or pass out because they can't write anything down then no I'm not giving a tip. If it wasn't for us customers there would not be a restaurant. Notice how many are closing.

[OhioStateProgressive]

78. I feel that is wrong

I am sorry, I don't see this argument going on any longer, I disagree with your premise

[camero]

79. Of course

They can do no wrong admit it. A night out should not be deadly. But it is for some of us. I'm an asshole but I don't get poisoned.

[OhioStateProgressive]

80. what?

it is my belief if people have special dietary concerns they shouldn't eat at restaurants

restaurants put out a menu, the food is made a certain way, if one can't eat it the way it is prepared they shouldn't eat it

[camero]

81. Then that is your belief

It is also discrimination. Which you're supposed to be against remember?

[OhioStateProgressive]

83. no

you get yourself in the restaurant business and then run one...make all the decisions as to how the place will run

I ahve done it, and done it well...and you are off base

[camero]

86. I'm off base?

My waiter should bring me diet coke instead of coke is off base? My food should be cooked right is off base?

[OhioStateProgressive]

88. that isn't what you said

you made mention of "poisoning", either you are making a wild extrapolation, or you are speaking of foods that you are allergic to...

which is it?

[camero]

92. Allergic

Try diabetic and we have the right to eat out just as you. They are not "entitled" when they refuse to do their jobs properly.

[OhioStateProgressive]

98. sorry

another rule I had was no menu variations, or if they insisted one they paid more for that dish...they force the staff to work harder, and for the same amount of money

[camero]

100. I sure wouldn't eat at any restaurant you run

Extorting customers, expecting a tip even when they get sick. Sheesh get some sense.

[OhioStateProgressive]

102. no extortion

there is a menu, on it is printed the food, the ingredients, and the way it is prepared

there is a reason restaurants make food a certain way

[camero]

110. Then they should do it.

then they can be rewarded not until.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

159. Are you still in the restaurant business?

I really hope you're not surprised if you aren't.
Duckie

[OhioStateProgressive]

162. no

I worked until the owner decided he wanted to sell, and then I walked away as happy as a person could be.

[ChoralScholar]

207. I have to go with camero on this one

not necessarily on food substitutions (this instead of this, hold the chives or whatever), but at least bring the person the drink they ordered. I, for instance, am very allergic to Nutra Sweet. So If I order Dr. Pepper, and someone gives me Diet Coke, It's not off-base at all for me to expect to get what I ordered. That's just inattentiveness or negligence.

People who have dietary concerns do not go to restaurants expecting people to pander to them. They go where there is something on the menu they can eat. They order the things they know they can eat, and to be accurate is not that much to ask. After all, it may be sickness-or-health situation for that person to get the menu item they ordered.

[TXlib]

202. What if a customer complained?

I've been in a "party of 8 or more" when the 15% gratuity was automatically added in many times.

Usually the service is fine, and I tip 15% - 20%, post-tax.

On one occasion the service was horrendous, and there was no excuse. The place was not busy, and the waiter did not seem to be new.

I called the manager over, and said I did not feel a 15% tip was warranted for the bad service received (several orders screwed up, repeatedly, no attention to water refills, acting cross with us for complaining that orders were screwed up).

The manager asked what tip I felt was warranted; I replied that for service that bad, I did not tip. He took the gratuity off our bill. But I still felt irked that we needed permission not to tip for atrocious service.

[Liberal Christian]

279. At least in doing what you did

the manager was made aware of the inferior service given by his employee. Most managers want to know.

[Astarho]

167. Unionize?

If they want to make more than $2.30 an hour they should unionize.

Spoken like someone who doesn't live in a "Right to Work" state.

[camero]

177. I do

They should unionize and those laws should be changed.

[ikojo]

118. I don't agree that one is socially obligated to tip

I see it as a wage subsidy for restaurants who do not want to pay minimum wage. Why can restaurants get by with paying far less than minimum? The food is no cheaper because of the cheap labor.

I realize eating out is a privilege but I also think the owner has an obligation to pay the staff at least minimum wage.

[camero]

126. I agree

Why do they get away with it? A forced subsidy at that.

[Pithlet]

131. That's precisely why it's an obligation.

I think the system stinks, too. That is why, when I choose to participte by eating out, I always tip. I don't think it's fair to the wait staff, who did not design that sytem, for me to eat out, use their services, and then not tip or tip poorly because I resent it. If I resent tipping that much, I shouldn't eat out, not make them work for free or next to nothing.

Of course, no one is saying that you have to tip them lavishly. I do believe that good tips should depend on good service.

[Liberal Christian]

280. I am not obligated to tip

Period. The end.

I usually do tip, and I usually tip between 15% and 20%. 15% is standard in my area. I almost never stiff a server because they almost never deserve it.

I'm a friendly and polite person. I always say "please" and "thank you" to servers. I try to be considerate of them. When the restaurant is busy, of course I am willing to wait a bit for service, to ask twice for a refill on water, etc. If the server is courteous and takes a moment to let me know what's going on in the kitchen or whatever, that's all a part of good service, even if it means my order is taking longer.

When a server ignores me, treats me rudely, acts as though I am imposing on him or her by daring to cross the door of the restaurant, then I don't tip. And, frankly, I don't care if that person has to tip others out of his or her own pocket. Deliberate rudeness, lack of care, and a lousy work ethic should have consequences.

[StopTheMorans]

6. leave 15 percent anyways

it's the guys damn job, and you're cheap if you go into any meal expecting to leave less (yes, i used to be a waiter, i haven't been for awhile). when i was a waiter a little over a year ago, i got $2.63/hr without tips. i just find it absurd to leave less than that. leave 15%, and complain to the manager. as far as i'm concerened, anyone who goes out to eat should consider the 15% part of the meal, and not have the attitude of the gracious lord giving drippings to the peasants:) sorry for the rant, i just think not tipping in general is almost never called for:)

[YellowRubberDuckie]

I always expect to tip well...

But I sure as hell am not going to reward bad service.
Duckie

[StopTheMorans]

12. again, that's the attitude i was trying to confront

you're not "rewarding bad service". most likely, the poor son-of-a-bitch makes a few bucks an hour, and your 15% is not making him rich by any means, it's just enough to get by unless you're talking about some really nice restaurant that does good business. 15% should be a standard. anything less is deplorable IMHO, and good service should get more:)

[camero]

63. The reason for this attitude

It is not seen as a tip anymore. It is seen as a kickback. We hardly have any money ourselves and everywhere we go we are confronted with people demanding money. I really don't see much of a difference between a beggar and a waiter demanding money except most of the time the beggar is grateful.

[OhioStateProgressive]

82. so wrong

if people don't have enough money to tip they shouldn't be eating at a restaurant

[camero]

85. It should be a tip

Not a bribe to get good service. Which all too often is what it is exactly.

[Pithlet]

99. I think most waitstaff

see it not as a bribe, but as their living. Most jobs I've worked, I always got paid. Imagine being at the mercy of the general public to receive your paycheck every day. It's arbitrary. You may get people like me who are glad to just be out of the house, or you may get the kind of person who sees it as a bribe to hold over the waitperson's head. I think the whole system stinks, but as long as I eat out, I have to participate, so I always tip.

I look at it this way. The amount of money I would have withheld isn't much to me, but the waitperson depends on it. If the service is so bad that I'd consider withholding it, then I'd probably talk to the manager. If the service is excellent, then I show my appreciation for it by tipping even more.

[camero]

104. I was in trucking

And alot of the restaurants I went to if they only saw one person at the table they gave them crappy service. It's one thing about eating out being a luxury. It's quite different when you have to and almost a third of your base pay goes to tips.

[Pithlet]

114. But that isn't the fault of the waitperson

They didn't design it that way. I'm sure they would rather receive a steady paycheck that isn't dependent on what customers they get.

I think the tipping system should be reserved for higher end restaurants, personally.

[camero]

117. It's the fault of the waitperson

If they treat you poorly. I didn't tell them where to work. They shouldn't expect me to pay the business expenses. And the individual waitress or waiter decides which table they are going to treat well and the ones they aren't. It's my choice whether I leave a tip or not.

And some of the posters suggestions that I should be arrested or shunned for not giving a tip because I get something that could harm me I find rather rediculous.

[Pithlet]

120. Anyone who suggested that

you be arrested was way off base.

Look, most of us have to work for a living. Some of us have better, cushier jobs than others. Some of us are lucky enough to have a job that we aspired to, and that we enjoy. Most of us occasionally have bad days that affect how we do our jobs. Most have jobs where we will be paid anyway. Waiting tables is really the only job I can think of where your living depends EVERY DAY on arbitrary decisions made by total strangers who's only relationship to you is they decided to eat out at your workplace that day. The amount of tip that I might withhold may not be much to me, but it is everything to them. And if the restaurants can't/won't pay them a living wage, then I should, considering I didn't even have to eat out that day; I could have stayed home, or brown bagged it.

[OhioStateProgressive]

121. i didn't suggest anyone should be arrested

I did say that if people aren't willing to tip they should stay at home and eat

[camero]

124. Should we pay at the door?

We'll get kicked out in the middle of our meal if we get sick and don't tip in your restaurant. And I do add up my bill. Good thing nobody did that to me because I would have just paid the bill without paying the tip and walked out.

[OhioStateProgressive]

127. no

it said right on the menu that a 15% gratuity would be added

if you did that you would have broken state law...and I would have called authorities...failing to pay any portion of a written bill for food is a crime

[camero]

129. I can see the headlines now

Patron arrested for failing to pay tip. Nice publicity. And a lawsuit against the establishment when I get sick.

[OhioStateProgressive]

132. it is legal

to add a 15% gratuity to the bill, before you recieve it...many restaurants do, it's a guarantee that their servers will receive a fair wage

[camero]

133. I'm glad I don't live there.

It's extortion is what it is. Your boss should be paying a fair wage.

[OhioStateProgressive]

135. it isn't extortion

if people can't pay tips they should cook their own dinner

[camero]

137. If you live on the road it is.

You really should step into another's shoes sometime. It would help.

[OhioStateProgressive]

139. oh come on

what do you think I'm arguing?

try being in a servers shoes yourself

the fact is that nothign is stopping you from going to a grocery store and buying yourself food on the road

[camero]

143. I have been in their shoes

I was a taxi driver which also relied on tips because I had a daily lease and I didn't treat anybody any differently whether I was tipped or not. The suggestion that an asshole deserves extra is the argument I find ludicrous. You want them to get paid well. You pay them not me.

[OhioStateProgressive]

146. then don't eat at restaurants

you do pay them, as that is the understood part of sit down dining

[camero]

strawman argument

This is getting rediculous. I would rather they were on welfare almost.

[OhioStateProgressive]

153. it is not ridiculous, and it is not a strawman argument(nt)

[camero]

122. When you have that choice fine

I'm not against them having a fair wage but I am against having my money extorted from me and then being treated like shit. Tipping when I get harmed by their actions? Ludicrous.

[Pithlet]

125. If anyone ever harmed you

then to expect you to tip them would be ludicrous.

I had gestational diabetes, and while I know that isn't the same thing, I did have to be more careful when dining out. If there was a danger that something might be harmful to me, I made sure the wait person knew I had a condition so they had to be careful not to mess up my order. I never had a problem. Actually, I'm still supposed to be on a diabetic diet, although it isn't life and death for me if I cheat.

The whole tip system really is a racket. I don't see why restaurants should be exempt from minimum wage laws. I agree that it shouldn't fall on me to take up the slack. But, as long as that is how things are run, if I want to eat out, that is the system I'm participating in. I'm not going to refuse to tip, or tip poorly because I resent it, but eat at restaurants anyway and expect them to wait on me for free.

[camero]

128. Like I said

It's different when you have to eat out. I'm not going to reward someone that treats me poorly individually just as I am not going to reward Wal-Mart when they treat their help poorly.

[OhioStateProgressive]

130. but you will eat at restaurants, which treat their workers poorly

and pay them poorly, and to make matters worse you propose to not pay a tiop...

it doesn't add up

[camero]

136. If that was the choice I would

If it was between that and eating 100 miles down the road I'm pretty much forced to eat there.

[Pithlet]

142. There are grocery stores, convenience stores, fast food joints

Heck, even gas stations. Most rest stops on highways have at least one of those options. I can't think of anyone who's sole option is full service restaurants, which tend to be more expensive than any of those other options.

[camero]

145. You eat a diet like that

You have no idea what it is like to live on the road. So comment on that when you do, ok?

[OhioStateProgressive]

148. your life on the road is not the fault of those who serve your meals(nt)

[camero]

152. By the same token

It's not my fault they are a waitress.

[Pithlet]

151. It's still a choice.

I don't have to live on the road to know the difference between a restaurant, a fast food place, and the grocery store. There are other options. Most restaurants don't offer a whole lot of healthy alternatives, especially not ones off the road catering to truckers.

Look, there is no need to take this persoally. I like you. You seem like a really nice guy. But I've noticed that you get very personal whenever anyone disagrees with you. I just don't see how anyone can be forced to eat at a restaurant. I just disagree, that's all.

[Pithlet]

140. Yes, but the difference is

Wal-mart employees get paid the same when you buy stuff from their store, and regardless of what crappy service you get there.

You said you don't go to Wal-mart because they treat their help poorly. You don't have to eat out, either. You can brown bag it. You can get fast food. No one ever has to go to a full service restaurant. There is a choice there. If it bothers you to participate in a service where the customer is compelled to pay rather than the employer, then you shouldn't participate.

[camero]

147. I will not

give someone extra money when they treat me like shit. It is a fool's errand.

[Pithlet]

154. You're not giving them extra money.

you are paying their wages. The wages that the restaurant should pay, but because they get exempt from minimum wage laws, don't. You don't have to tip them lavishly, but you should understand that. It is an unfair arrangement, to be sure, but it is how it is.

Anyone who works is entitled to a livable wage. I don't think it's fair that some have to depend on that livable wage by total strangers who chose to patronize their workplace.

[camero]

156. They get a check

Let em earn it. Not by treating others like shit. You seem to think that's ok?

[OhioStateProgressive]

158. yeah, you're right...2 dollars an hour is a kings ransom(nt)

[camero]

161. Listen to Bertha she knows better. n/t

[OhioStateProgressive]

163. I don't need to listen when I can speak(nt)

[camero]

178. Listening before speaking is good sometimes n/t

[Pithlet]

172. No, I don't think it is okay

but in all the years I've been going to restaurants, of all kinds, I've never been treated like shit. If and when it ever happens, I will likely talk to their boss about it. Anyone who is that bad will probably have a hard time holding down a job anywhere.

That check they get is not a livable wage. They earn every dime of that tip, let me tell you. A majority of wait staff are very hard workers who are human just like you and I. They're just unfortunate enough to depend on their wages from total strangers who make arbitrary decisions about their pay. That small amount may not be much to me, but it is what they depend on. If my service was less than stellar, I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt. They may be having a bad day, or they maybe waiting more tables than they can handle because someone called in sick. If they are at that job waiting on tables, then they are doing their job. To allow total strangers to decide to withhold their pay is awful.

[OhioStateProgressive]

174. thank you

If I wasn't such a jerk and asshole:) I probably could have stated what I wanted to say as succinctly and on point as you just did

[JVS]

87. If someone can't provide good enough service to earn the tip they...

shouldn't work at one either.

[Name removed]

89. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JVS]

93. I've been reading this thread and finally chimed in

I'd prefer not being told what I should do with my own money. Nobody here is proposing that people look for the slightest excuse and then leap up screaming "Ahaa, no money for you! You fucked up" That is not the situation. If people want to tip, that is their decision.

[ohiosmith]

97. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes! Checkmate.

[OhioStateProgressive]

101. but you don't mind telling an underpaid server what to do?

I will say I am glad I never was a server, and that I got the education to manage the place...but guilt goes a long way and I will never sit back and justify the low wages of these people

[JVS]

107. It's not like I am asking them to do magic tricks. It is their job.

[OhioStateProgressive]

111. if you don't tip your part of the bargain is underfullfilled(nt)

[JVS]

115. I never said I don't tip

I almost always tip 20%, but if I have to sit there with an empty water glass half the time, I'm going to cut it by a couple percent. Only if someone screws up completely will they get no tip.

[OhioStateProgressive]

119. my bad

it just seems as if I am getting piled up on here, when I am accutely aware of the restaurant business...these people don't get paid enough, and there are very few voices calling out to stick up for them

I feel badly about it

[Pithlet]

109. Nobody is telling you what to do with your money.

The system is set up the way it is, for better or for worse. No one is telling you you have to eat out at a restaurant. If tipping is so offensive to you, it might not be such a bad idea not to.

Nobody here is proposing that people look for the slightest excuse and then leap up screaming "Ahaa, no money for you! You fucked up"

A lot of customers do just that. A lot of the people here seem to have no problem with that system. After all, they should work for their money. They shouldn't get paid if they don't do their job. What else are they saying? They view their tip not as something that has to be done because restaurants are allowed to get away with underpaying, but as some carrot to dangle over their head to make them do their job.

[JVS]

116. Read the header of post 21

As far as the understanding in a restaurant that I will tip, I have no problem with that, but there is also the understanding that effort will be extended on the part of the staff. As long as both understandings are respected, things are fine.

[Pithlet]

123. No, they still aren't telling you what to do with your money.

No one is forcing you to eat out.

I said it in another post, but wait staffing is the only job I can think of where a person's living depends almost solely on arbitrary decisions made by total strangers who's only relationship to you is they decided to eat at your workplace. I don't understand why people can't just feel fortunate to be able to afford to eat out, and cut some people a little slack. Why is it so hard to just assume that maybe that person is having a bad day, and maybe withholding their only source of pay is a little harsh? I'm not saying you should tip them lavishly. But to not tip at all?

I just don't get bad service that often, so it's not like I'm paying a bunch of lazy people to not work waiting on me hand and foot. I just don't see it that way.

[JVS]

216. I'm not talking about waitstaff. I'm talking about the "always tip 15%"..

advocates here. If the service sucks they don't get that much. They are just going to have to deal. If you don't like it that's too bad, it is my decision.

[Pithlet]

232. Heh

Well, most bosses thankfully do not have that decision. They have to pay their workers, regardless, for the hours they worked. If work is substandard they have other recourse.

"If you don't like it, that's too bad" LOL

[yankeedem]

283. Not to be cruel

But when I go out and spend money on dinner at a restaurant, it's not my problem if a server has a bad day. If they take it out on me, they get no tip and the manager hears about it also.

I used to work on tips as a taxi driver. Some people never tip. Some people always tip, even too much sometimes. It always evened out. I didn't like working on tips at all. So I found another job. Simple, isn't it?

I can recall only two times that I didn't tip. One time the server charged our credit card 3 times and refused to fix it, saying "she didn't know how". The other time, we were waited on only after 25 minutes at our seats, and it took 40 minutes to get our salads (in an empty restaurant). That time we didn't make it to the main course, we just walked out.

[underpants]

16. Va. ASSUMES that you tip at least 15% and tax them on it

It ain't like the old days when we all claimed $50 a week in tips when we made that each night.

[Robb]

18. Well put.

Especially the part about the "gracious lord giving drippings to the peasants". :thumbsup:

[beyurslf]

34. No way. I was a waiter too

I would have never ever done that to a customer. I made 2.13 an hour and I knew I had to please my customer if I wanted to make more. I don't stiff a person on a tip but I never feel that blatantly bad service means 15% still. I would leave the change from the nearest dollar...and complain.

In fact, if that had happened, I would have grabed my drink and walked back to the kitchen to request a refill in person. I bet THAT would get the attention of someone.

[TXlib]

203. "Almost never called for"... agreed.

It's quite rare that the server is so bad I feel a paltry tip is justified.

I consider 15% to be the norm for average service. It takes a fair amount of rudeness/screwups before I consider leaving less, and even then I try to consider how crowded the restaurant is, and whether the server appears new.

[ArkDem]

7. Go to the kitchen and

help yourself.

[Rabrrrrrr]

8. depends on the service he has offered throughout the meal

Can't makea decision based on whether or not he filled a cup of tea after the meal was done.

Assuming the service has been otherwise fine, I'd still leave a tip. I'd be a bit disgruntled, but I wouldn't really care about it.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

9. No service. Got order, brought food, disappeared.

[Rabrrrrrr]

199. depends on the restaurant

if it's a low-end diner, that's exactly what I'd expect, so I'd tip - the waiter would, for the most part, have met my expectations, which were very low to begin with.

If I was paying for $20 entrees, and the service was that poor, I'd be upset, and might very well leave a low tip, assuming that the poor service was the waiter's fault. One of the reasons to go to more expensive place IS to be pampered and be treated special and have people paying attention to my needs. That's why they get to charge more, and why the waitstaff can earn much bigger tips than people doing the same (sort of) work at the diner.

But it totally depends on context. The question as you've asked it doesn't provide enough detail to make an informed decision.

[Dookus]

10. I'd walk over to where he was sitting and ask loudly

within earshot of the manager, for more tea.

[JVS]

11. I would only rarely complain to the manager

And that would be in the rare instance that it effects whether or not I eat. For instance if I say no mayo on the sandwich and the waiter/ess comes back with mayo on it, then it is manager time. Mayo makes me gag and I'm not going to buy a sandwich I can't eat.

[Taeger]

14. The Whole Nine Yards

Great line by ex hitman Bruce Willis.

'I said no mayo. I want you to take this back to the kitchen and tell the chef if he puts mayo on it again, I'll chop off his head and stuff his body into a garbage bag'

;-)


Mayo will do some serious damage to some people's digestive system (like mine).

[Alenne]

17. no tip for bad service and complain to the manager

I had a waiter who didn't leave silverware on the table. After asking him for silverware and waiting, I finally went and got the silverware myself. He didn't bring us our drinks or food, someone else did and that was after an hour of waiting. Of course the order was screwed up. I don't even think he knew what a refill was. If the restaurant had been busy or he had been new I would have let him pass. His problem was he was too busy laughing it up with one table while his other tables waited for him. We complained to the manager and left him no tip.

I don't ask for much from my waiter or waitress when I go out to eat but I don't expect to have to beg for my food and a utensil to eat it with.

[GOPisEvil]

19. My tip threshhold starts at 20% and adjusts from there.

If the service is really good, I will add a few more % to the tip. If the service is friendly and generally adequate, I'll go with the 20%. If the service is barely adequate (and there isn't a reason like the server seems to be doing the work of two people), I go with 15%. If the service is rude...well, I can't say what I'd do. I've never had service THAT horrible before.

[ohiosmith]

20. No tip. Anyone who tips shitty service just reinforces the unacceptable

behavior. You're the customer and your expectations should not only be met but exceeded. I've been in customer service of various types for over 40 years and it's my experience that the vast majority of customers do not have unreasonable expectations. They just want what they pay for. And who cares that waiting tables for minimum wages is a lousy job? That's the career choice made by the waiter not you.

Forget talking to the Manager. He has an ass to cover, his own. Contact his boss or his bosses boss.

[OhioStateProgressive]

21. you should tip no matter what

The fact of the matter is, that no matter how good the service, when you eat at a restaurant or get drunk at the bar, you are having a good time at the expense of those who work there.

[StopTheMorans]

22. good answer

thank you. to post 20: regardless of whether they picked the job or not, shouldn't they be paid what they deserve? should we pay illegal immigrants 2 bucks an hour to pick fruit just b/c they can't get any other jobs and will do it?

[camero]

23. Their boss should be paying them

Which is why a unionization effort would do some good. Or a drive to include waiters and waitresses in the minimum wage law.

[StopTheMorans]

25. i agree, but they're not, and it's not going to happen anytime soon

so do you continue to penalize the workers for their current situation? or do you do the respectable thing and own up to the fact that 15% is part of their wage? it would be great if they were included in minimum wage laws or could organize, but as a profession, it's not likely.

[camero]

28. Just the ones with a shitty attitude

I've heard of too many instances of retaliation like spitting in food, etc. to trust what I'm getting in the first place. Gee, and they wonder why things like TB are spreading. And you get worse service when you're from out of state because they know they aren't going to see you again.

And when I get a coke instead of a diet and go into a coma for 3 days, I don't think a tip is warranted.

[put out]

188. Are you diabetic.

Are you telling us that the lack of 130 Kcals of sucrose put you in a hypoglycemic crisis for three days?

Plus, tuberculosis is primarily spread by long-term, intimate living conditions with the infected person.

I think I should brush up on my science, or others should. What is being said does not make sense.

[camero]

190. It was a large one and my tongue was numb

And it was a hyperglycemic coma. My friend never saw me out for so long. I'm sorry but I get angry when someone says they have the right to kill me. And there was a big meningitis scare at Chiji's from bad produce. You can get TB when someone spits in your food.

[put out]

193. My apologies. I misread your post. I wish you didn't have that.

[camero]

194. Me niether

I didn't really have any choice either at that moment. My friend stopped there. After that, I carried my own soda in and if they didn't like it then that was tough. I really shouldn't have to tell somebody I'm diabetic. I should just get a diet coke. It's not hard.

[put out]

195. Well, thanks a lot

for making me feel crappy about my being crappy. I deserve to feel good all the time. I'd give you a smiley if I knew how, or the one that shrugs. Mea culpa.

[camero]

196. You weren't crappy

You just didn't know. At least you're not so dead set in your opinions that nothing else matters. Hint: When you post, click on the smilies lookup table. then click on the smiley you want to send.
:)

[Shrek]

31. It doesn't matter if it's part of his wage.

If he doesn't do his job then he doesn't deserve it.

If a plumber comes to my house and bills me for two hours, I fully expect the leak to be fixed. If it's not, then either he does it right or I don't pay for the two hours. He's not entitled to the money just because he showed up.

How is the waiter or waitress any different?

[OhioStateProgressive]

33. the reason I left the restaurant business

is because of opinions like yours

[Shrek]

35. So would you pay a plumber who failed to fix the leak?

If so, why?

If not, why the double standard?

[OhioStateProgressive]

39. plumbers make how much an hour?

servers make about 2.25 an hour...the difference between minimum wage and their hourly wage is to be made up in tips

do you feel alright with yourself making someone work at your beck and call for less than minimum wage?

[Pithlet]

66. Not only that, but

plumbers usually aspire to that profession. It's a learned skill that usually pays quite well. It's almost never a job-until-I-get-back-on-my-feet kind of thing, the way it a lot of the times waiting tables.

I don't mean to imply that waitpersons aren't skilled, and that it isn't a hard job. I know that some, especially with good gigs, can get paid very well, and waiting on tables is a very demanding job, no matter how well paid.

[ohiosmith]

70. I seem to recall the day you left the business. The entire industry

sector nearly collapsed.

[OhioStateProgressive]

74. nice

well, I am sorry for vociferously standing up for people I have watched sweat their asses off for miniscule tips, only to sit and watch some overstuffed wealthy suit cry because his beer is alittle bit too warm

[Madrone]

228. OR...

<<<<Which is why a unionization effort would do some good. Or a drive to include waiters and waitresses in the minimum wage law.>>>

OR ...

wait for it....








YOU (and those like you) boycott full service restaurants because it pisses you off so much that you are expected to subsidize the server's wages.

Jesus - I don't get you people. If you have such a problem tossing a buck or 2 on the table on your way out... PLEASE DRIVE THRU.

[ohiosmith]

26. It's not at their expense. It's at my expense. It's their job to perform

their assigned duties at the agreed upon wage. If they find the conditions unacceptable, quit and get another job.

[StopTheMorans]

29. you're missing a fundamental point

if they can't perform their duties properly (i.e. the manager understaffs and it's too busy), it's often not their fault, and it's cheap and rude to punish them for something they have little control over. and the "they should get another job thing" is kind of crass b/c it assumes that jobs are readily available in this economy, which is obviously not true...

[OhioStateProgressive]

30. bullshit

run a restaurant for a few years and then get to know the dreams of these underpaid peoples that never get met...all so people can gorge their faces and sauce their livers

no...it is unnacceptable to make the unfortunate pay twice for their unfortune

[ohiosmith]

36. "unfortune"? If it weren't for those people gorging their faces the

"unfortunate" would have no jobs.

[OhioStateProgressive]

40. yes I spelled a word wrong

but the fact is that you are justifying low waged servitude, which is usually something spouted off by the other side

[ohiosmith]

44. OUCH! I must be a RW because I expect to get what I pay for.

[OhioStateProgressive]

45. no

and I didn't say you were, just that your position is strangely similar

for your luxury someone is earning a piss wage...always remember that

[ohiosmith]

51. My "luxury" was hard come by. That's what I'll remember.

[OhioStateProgressive]

52. eat dinner at home(nt)

[ohiosmith]

54. And a luxurious home it is.

[Pithlet]

55. Oh, brother, n/t

[Pithlet]

53. Do you get a deduction?

Every time your boss feels like you didn't meet his expectations? And if deductions do happen, do you still have to pay the taxes on it?

I'm not talking about doing stuff that will get you fired, as I'm sure you'll mention that your boss can do that. I'm talking about the little day to day details that most jobs require. "Didn't get that report in on time? 500 bucks from your paycheck." Can you imagine what that would be like?

[ohiosmith]

59. At one time I was in positions where I was docked for shortages

worked OT w/o pay, made minimum wages, etc. Fortunately I have advanced to situations that now allow me the latitude to call my own shots and decide who I want to work for. I also learned a long time ago that there is no good excuse for substandard service. My reason for existing in business is to exceed the expectations of my customers.

[Pithlet]

60. Good for you.

Obviously they were too lazy or unskilled, or they would have advanced to situations, too. Is that what you mean?

[ohiosmith]

61. Where in my missive was that even hinted at, let alone implied?

[Pithlet]

62. "My luxury was hard come by"

Just stuff like that in general.

If I've misread you, I'm really sorry. I don't think that everyone who doesn't tip for bad service is like that. But your posts in this thread have had that kind of attitude.

[ohiosmith]

68. My attitude on the subject is: Bad service = no tip, good service =

good tip (25-30%), excellent service = excellent tip (35-50%)including a cash tip to the buss people, expediters, and bar staff. I grew up poor and appreciate and value what I have earned and take every opportunity to reward those who are deserving.

[Pithlet]

69. That's not what bothered me.

I actually agree with you, although it would have to be very bad service to get me to not leave a tip.

I don't think you're getting where I'm coming from.

[ohiosmith]

71. Perhaps I am not.

[yankeedem]

284. And if you destroy my "good time"

By giving me poor service, I am damn sure not going to pay you for it.

[nini]

24. I always leave a tip... but it varies.

Both of my sister's were waitresses out of high school and I've heard lots of horror stories about what goes on behind the scenes. So, if someone seems hurried, stressed, a bit less than friendly - I normally do not punish them with little or no tip. They will get the usual 15%.

If they're really nice and/or efficient they will get around 25-30%. . A bit better than so/so they get 20.

It also depends on the total price of the meal. There's a local place that has dirt cheap breakfast and the waitresses run around like crazy.. I usually leave a bigger tip than what I pay of the meal. It's only fair.

[nini]

27. When you make eye contact.. are your motioning for them to come over?

If you held up your glass to show that's what you want and were ignored then I could see the problem.

Could be someone may be a bit dingy and not realize you actually want something.

I guess I would have to be there before deciding for sure.

[Bertha Venation]

32. No tip, plus a note w/ signature on receipt:

"You received no tip because of your lousy service. Here are the specifics: etc. etc. etc. Think about this next time you walk past a table with empty coffee cups, next time you ignore eye contact, etc."

[ohiosmith]

37. Good one Bertha.

[OhioStateProgressive]

38. and the server should leave you a note

it should say 'cook your own dinner, get your own drinks...you came to restaurant so you wouldn't have to cook...in other words, the easy way out...live like most everyone else and eat dinner at home'

people need to realize when they eat at a restaurant it is a luxury on their part...but working for low wages is not a luxury on the servers part, it's a necessity

[ohiosmith]

41. OK. You win. We'll all stay home and cook for ourselves. Actually

I'll have my housekeeper cook for me.

[OhioStateProgressive]

42. nice reply

being out of touch with those who can't afford all luxury must be a nice perch to sit from

[ohiosmith]

47. Ah! But I'm not out of touch. I'm taking advantage of them by spending

the money, I work my ass off for, where they work.

[OhioStateProgressive]

50. whatever(nt)

[Bertha Venation]

164. Oh, gimme a break.

OSP, the people you're debating with come from all walks, okay? I came from abject poverty and got out of it via the bootstrap route. I know what it's like to scrape and suffer. When I go out for a meal, it is a major extravagance. I choose the best restaurants I can afford, and usually I try only to go to those I've heard have excellent service because I won't tolerate anything less.

If I get lousy service, it has made a serious dent in what should've been an enjoyable evening -- and as I've said those evenings are rare. So you bet your sweet bippy I'm going to make my displeasure known. I don't have much to spare either, and I'm sure as hell not going to throw good money away by tipping someone who doesn't deserve it.

[OhioStateProgressive]

166. irrelevant

you are talking about having a good time at the sweat and labor of another...regardless of anything else, you should pay a tip because of it

[Bertha Venation]

168. We're not going to agree, okay?

Let's leave it at that, shall we? :hi: I really don't want to get myself het up over such a trivial argument.

[OhioStateProgressive]

169. im sorry

I shouldn't get so heated up about this...but I am getting ganged up on for it...and what is sad that all I am doing is asking people to think about other people first

[Bertha Venation]

173. I'm sorry, too, and I truly do understand your POV.

I understand the concept of benefiting from the sweat and labor of others, OSP, but without people in such jobs -- for which most are paid a semi-decent wage (compared to the rest of the world, not that we're some paragon) -- the country would come to a sudden and catastrophic halt. There would be no restaurants because there would be no sous chefs and no servers and no dishwasers -- and that's only one example. No homes would be built. The truly unfortunate whose prospects are extremely limited, who do the only things they can imagine to try to get by -- like day laborers or chambermaids or babysitters for working moms -- would be the first to suffer.

<sigh> I guess I should go to bed. It's been a fucked week. Sorry if I took it out on you.

[Pithlet]

175. I don't understand why

The great tipping flamewars have happened here, before. Many who have a very progressive outlook on most things seem to look at this issue rather coldly. No one is suggesting they should tip lavishly for bad service. All you're doing is asking people to consider that when they go to a restaurant, that person who is waiting on you relies on your tip for their living.

When you go to a restaurant, you choose to participate in a system that relies on you, rather than the employer, to pay the employees. Keep that in mind. If that system offends you so much, then you shouldn't go to restaurants.

[Rabrrrrrr]

197. OhioStateProgressive, I've read this thread, and you and a few others

are missing an essential point that has been raised over and over by some.

Yes, we all know that waitstaff tends to be paid quite poorly, and relies on tips, and because of that, you will notice, we are pretty much all in 100% agreement that good service should be rewarded with a tip.

Some of us, however, believe the social contract is that the waitstaff are there to do a job, and, like EVERY OTHER PROFESSION IN EXISTENCE, they should do a good job in order to be expected to earn a living.

I don't believe in supporting someone just because "it's the liberal thing to do". If they are crappy waiters/waitresses, they shouldn't be doing that job. Leaving a poor tip is one method to let them know that, hey, maybe this job isn't for them. Unless they're dumb, and decide instead to just blame the customers for the poor tips.

If they treat me poorly, they don't deserve a tip. If they screw up terribly, and there's no reason (too few waitstaff, super busy, a table of obnoxious assholes making their night miserable, etc.) they don't deserve a tip. But there is no God-sanctioned moral requirement to always, every time, tip the waitstaff.

That said, I bet it's only 3 or 4 times in the last 10 years that I've left a marginally poor tip for bad service (I never leave nothing, as that makes no statement). I simply don't believe in rewarding bad behavior. And for the most part, it's also pretty rare to find actualy poor service, or a waitstaff who treats me like crap. Most do pretty darn well, considering the difficulty and obnoxiousness of being a waiter/waitress, and working for such ridiculous low wages.

[northzax]

96. right.

and I paid for that steak, a premium over the retail price, in fact. And a premium for the drinks, and everything. If my steak is bad, I'm going to complain and ask for a new one. If my drink is bad, I'll ask for a new one. If my server is bad, I'll ask for a new one. I won't pay for a rotten steak, and I won't pay for rotten service. I won't punish the waitstaff for the kitchen, or the kitchen for the waitstaff.


By the way, I left a note similar to this ata bar last week. I was in a corner, away from the bar. I asked the bartender to bring us a pitcher of beer. As they always have before in this place (where I go every wednesday since 1999) he told me to "get my own fucking pitcher." well, his tip was lower, accompanied by a note exaplaining why it was lower. I tipped the other bartender in cash, 25%. he may have been having a bad day, but one of the reasons I pay a premium for alcohol in a bar is for service. If the service is such that it decreases my enjoyment of the place, I am not happy.

[OhioStateProgressive]

108. nice

your happiness is someone elses work and sweat

[northzax]

134. what happiness?

he swore at me and told me to do his job for him. would you have been happier if I had told the manager (someone I know quite well from my several hundred visits there) that his bartender was being an asshole? I was not asking him to do anything that was not expected, nothing unusual. and he tells me to "get your own fucking beer." unh huh. can I come to your restaurant I bet the service is great.

[OhioStateProgressive]

138. well

actually, the service was pretty damn good...servers and barhands who did bad were fired...but that still doesn't change my argument

[northzax]

220. so, I should have tipped him

and then gotten him fired? ok, I'll do that next time. 25 bucks in exchange for his job. sounds fair.

[camero]

141. I know

His all or nothing argument is getting rediculous. Maybe we should just go to the owner.

[OhioStateProgressive]

144. hehe

the owner who wanted me to put the automatic gratuity in?

or the owner who had me put "this is how we make it, no substitutions" on the menu?

[camero]

149. Then he fires them or gets sued.

[OhioStateProgressive]

157. no lawsuits on changed orders

restaurants have protections against lawsuits resulting from changed orders...they are liable for menu items

order a steak rare at a restaurant and they will tell you if you get sick they aren't liable

[camero]

160. I get diet coke instead of coke

You bet you're ass I'm sueing. And if I order it well done and it's rare I'm sueing.

[OhioStateProgressive]

165. and

as the case is thrown out with prejudice by the judge I will laugh

[camero]

179. Not when I die it won't

[OhioStateProgressive]

180. now there's a strawman(nt)

[camero]

182. It's called

They knew he was diabetic. He askecd for something specific and didn't get it. Didn't taste it because diabetes kills the nerves. They were liable. Haven't you heard of the ADA? I'm a socialist but not a cold-hearted one. It's called wrongful death.

[OhioStateProgressive]

183. adding bigger straws makes it a bigger strawman

i am not going to continue this...it is now silly

[camero]

184. Cause you can't back it up.

People should not have to take that chance when they go to a restaurant. What's the health department for? You actually think people should tip before you die. What are you going to do, take the money out of my pocket when I pass out? You're being rediculous.

[OhioStateProgressive]

185. you are making a wild argument

I never said any of the things you just accused me of

I stated if you go into a restaurant and get served food you should pay a tip

end of story

I also said you shouldn't order food that is off the menu...and that restaurants are not liable if you do order off menu

and also, if you have dietary concerns, and are worried about getting sick...you should eat a diet, approved by a dietician and doctor, from the safety of your home

[Name removed]

187. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Madrone]

244. Dude -

You are REALLY hung up on this "death by Coke" thing - for christ's SAKE - after reading post after post after post about it I am starting to see how, maybe, this could be a problem for you. I mean, by NOW, even I (a total pacifist) want to give you a COKE and a SMILE, so you'll STFU!!! :)

If you perform this rant every time you step thru the door of a restaurant - well damn, I guess I'm worried for you too!

None of us here think you should suffer "death by Coke" because of a distracted server. We ALL understand "death by Coke" isn't a good thing, and can understand why you have to be extra careful and concerned about this issue. I do not believe any of us on this board think you should be happy about being nearly killed by Coke.

HOWEVER - If this happens to you often enough to justify this endless, ongoing, and emotional rant you need to pick a different restaurant! If EVERY restaurant you go to tries to kill you every time you eat out - then maybe you need to rethink the whole "eating out" thing altogether.

Otherwise, you are just using a mostly hypothetical to justify a continual rant against tipping. I may as well start an endless thread screaming about how if I die in an airplane crash they can NOT make me pay for my ticket - and how I shouldn't have to pay so much because my pilot COULD be not paying attention and COULD crash the plane so I shouldn't BE FORCED TO PAY FOR AIRFARE BECAUSE I COULD DIE IN A PLANE CRASH.

It's nonsensical.

[camero]

250. Hmmm

Will you tip the pilot when the plane crashes? If you don't know what it's like don't go there.

[Madrone]

261. Oh, I'll go there.

Because I have a stepfather with FAR worse dietary restrictions and health issues than you.

IF YOU GET KILLED BY COKE FINE - DON'T LEAVE A DAMNED TIP!!!

No one is suggesting you SHOULD! No one is suggesting you shouldn't have concern about those issues!

The problem is - it's sounding to me like you are using the realm of POSSIBILITY to bitch about the act of tipping, PERIOD.

Someone needs to stomp the floor - your needle's stuck.

[camero]

264. Actually it was suggested that I should

I resent that. And I highly doubt that alot of the posters who do work in the restaurant industry actually tip others in the service industry. Alot of the time they didn't even want to pay the bill in my experience. Restaurant employees were the worst tippers. No, it wasn't a possibility, it happened. Lucky I did not die from it.

And before you make more threatening post of bodily harm, I worked as a cab driver which had no minimum wage. We were 1099 subcontractors.
We rented our vehicles. The cab company determined the rate on the meter which never went up even though the rental payments and fuel costs did. When it was slow, a tip meant the difference between having just a few dollars in your pocket and paying the cab company out of your own pocket.

If I made a mistake or got lost I refused to take a tip and itemized what the actual cost of transport would have been. Experienced drivers know this. Alot of poor people took the cab so I didn't complain when I didn't get a tip. This attitude actually got me MORE tips. Gee, imagine that. Don't expect it and do better. Then others wonder how you do well when you don't badger people for what you think you are entitled to.

You can't just expect to win when you just show up, you have to play too. I doubt if you'll read the whole thing, I'm talking to a wall apparently. But I had to try. Geesh.

[Madrone]

268. Driving cabs can SUCK...

I've had a few friends that have done that job - and they had some interesting situations of their own.

For the record, I ALWAYS tip cabbies - and well. Same with hair stylists. And - if you made a mistake and tried to give me my tip back, you wouldn't be able to. I'd toss it on the seat before closing the door and walking away if I had to. I also want to say I have never seen anyone in food service beg or badger for a tip.

As for your personal experience of service industry employees being the worst - that flies in the face of my own personal experience, and that of everyone I can think of. As a server - we always wanted the tables that consisted of servers from other establishments. They were the most polite, the nicest, and the best tippers. As a former server, I ALWAYS tip well. I guess if someone spit on me, called me a bitch, and then dumped my plate in my lap I may rethink the tip! Fact is, I've never had service soooooooooo horrible that I would leave nothing.

One experience sticks out in my mind as a "bad" service experience. I went to Ruby Tuesday's in Crossroads Mall (Kalamazoo, MI) with the girlfriend of my roomate's son. She was black - and I was anything BUT "dressed to the nines" as it was my day off and I was all about being comfortable. I was a waitress at Denny's (read NO EXTRA MONEY) at the time, and was splurging by eating out, which I didn't do often. We "did it up" by ordering whatever we wanted - well and above what we knew we could actually eat. 3 or 4 different appetizers, and our dinners. We NEVER saw our waitress, after she finally took our order. The bus boy brought us our appetizers. I had to send him back for some sauce, and he got it for us immediately. Another waitress brought our dinners and dropped them off. We stopped someone else, and asked that our drinks be refilled. Our waitress came back just long enough to drop our check on the table, then disappeared. I was OFFENDED. I felt like because one person in my party was black and because I was young and not perfectly coiffed that we were being blown off as "non tippers." I REALLY felt that way. When the busboy walked by I called him over and tried to hand him 4 dollars. He kept refusing to take it, as they don't get tips, and those are to go to the waitresses. I ASSURED him that the waitress would be well taken care of, but because he was so helpful to us I insisted he take the money.

Then - what to do about the waitress? Our bill was $30-something. I left $13 on the table, and asked for a manager when I went to pay my bill. I was VERY nice to the manager. I explained that the food was wonderful, but that I wanted him to pass something along to his waitress, and that I wasn't doing it to her face because I didn't want to upset her, making her do even WORSE, or to dismiss me as yet another customer looking for an excuse not to tip. (she didn't look busy, there were not many other customers in the restaurant that I could see, but the fact remained that I didn't know the whole situation - for all I knew she could have gotten stiffed all night so by the time she got to us she felt defeated) I told him that we were practically ignored, everyone else had to take care of us, and that she may wish to be *slightly* more attentive with other customers in the future. I pointed out that I was not trying to get her in trouble, or justify not tipping her, as I had left $13 on the table. The manager's eyes got REAL big at that - he thanked me for my comments, THEN - the kicker - told me that he appreciated it and he would let her know she needed improvement in these areas, and that she was a little overwhelmed as she had just started that week.

Know what? Had I gotten pissed, not tipped, and walked out I may have made this poor girls already frustrating first week even worse. Have no doubt - if your server gives piss poor service, he/she IS aware of it, and usually feels guilty about it - whether it's a situation in their control or not. Instead, I OVER tipped her - and know what? I bet that relieved her stress just a little, and made her happy. Hopefully, that tip and my message to her made her a better waitress for the table that came after me.

My IMPRESSION was that she was very rude and discriminating against my party - the reality was completely different.

[camero]

270. Good advice, yes it works both ways.

I'm not against tipping per se. What got me started on my 100 post long rant was that I should be forced to tip and that there were certain situations where a tip may not be warranted.

I do tip very well when they they go above and beyond what is the very basics of waitressing. Just that my order is correct, that's all. That's all I ask. I know going in that my wait is going to be 30 minutes or more even on a slow day because food takes time to prepare.

When he or she decides they know what is best for me and what I should have or makes an ignorant comment, it's my right not to leave a tip. I should not have to announce to the whole world that I am a thin diabetic and invite more harrassment.

In fact the mere suggestion that I should be banned from a restaurant for being diabetic angers me to no end. My apologies.

[GobGoober]

223. Most times I go to a restaurant, it is only my wife and I

I can understand an automatic gratuity for parties over 6 persons. If there was an automatic gratuity for a two person party, I would get up and leave the establishment before placing an order. I will not accept that control being wrested from me by an establishment when it is just my wife and I.

That said, 20% is my average tip. I go up and down from there depending upon service levels. 8% is my minimum tip because it is the level assumed by the I.R.S. on all covers. It is also the point where I get management involved.

In the past twenty years, I have tipped 8% maybe three times. I have tipped 35% maybe two or three times per year.

[MercutioATC]

113. That's an important point. Don't penalize the server for the kitchen's

errors. If your food's not done right, send it back, but remember who's fault it is. I only withhold tips for poor SERVICE. The food is a separate issue.

[Bertha Venation]

155. Whether or not I leave a tip has nothing to do w/ the fact that

that person is in a low-wage job. You think I don't know that the wages suck? I also used to work at a payroll company -- you think I don't know that they have to report their tips and are taxed on them?

I haven't left that note in return for lousy service because I feel superior to the person. I've done it because customer service is their JOB as a server in a restaurant. I know that many of them work as servers because it's the only work they can get, and I am sorry for them. But whether they like it or not, they work in customer service, and they know that good customer service is part of the job. They also know that bad customer service will have an effect on their bottom line.

I've worked in customer service (in an industry where tips are not part of the pay, and the wages, while a little higher for that reason, were still shit) -- and I have been treated like shit by people I bent over backwards for. I still bent over backwards because it was my job. I have NO sympathy for someone who does not give me good service, and that is why I have no qualms about allowing their level of service directly affecting the amount of my tip.

[Liberal Christian]

281. And that worker only has a job

because people leave their homes and come to the restaurant. So, if everyone stays home, the server has no salary at all. Would that be what you are advocating?

[Rabrrrrrr]

282. Aye, we should come bowing and scraping the floor

in front of the waiters, for we who go to a restaurant are submitting ourselves to a luxury, and we should feel lucky that people are there who will bring us food.

I hadn't responded to OSD's post yet because I found it so proposterous, I just didn't know how to respond.

I had long thought *I* was doing the restaurant a favor by helping to keep them in business and giving them my money so they could show a profit. Turns out, I'm wrong. I guess somehow the waiters get paid more if I'm not there or something. Apparently the profit curve is a hyperbola, which goes to infinity where the number of customers approaches zero.

profit = 1/x, where x is the number of customers

[tom_paine]

43. No tip, but no tattling to the manager

Conversely, if I get good service, I usually tip 30% or more.

[Pithlet]

46. I leave a tip regardless.

I do not see it as reinforcing bad service. Most of us do not work at a job where our boss can deduct from our pay every time we make a mistake, or every time he feels we just didn't give it our all, yet we still have to pay the taxes on the money deducted. Can you imagine if all employers got to run the same racket that restaurants get to?

Most of us get paid the same, even on our bad days. We all have them, even the best among us. Some of us get bonuses, but that is becoming rare.

I rarely ever get bad service anyway, but when I do, I just give the person the benefit of the doubt. I still usually have a good time anyway, because it beat staying home and cooking.

[Rabrrrrrr]

198. You seem to think that the tip is an essential, integrative part

of the employee's compensation.

You say, "Most of us do not work at a job where our boss can deduct from our pay every time we make a mistake, or every time he feels we just didn't give it our all."

Not leaving a tip is nothing like deducting pay for bad work.

Not leaving a tip is EXACTLY like not giving a bonus for an excellent service.

If I did poorly at my job (at which I was tipped via the year-end bonus), my bonus was lower or non-existent. If I worked extra hard, my bonus extra higher.

It's a TIP, not SALARY, and thus IS performance-based.

(and yes I know waitstaff are legally entitled to insanely low and inhuman wages - which really, really has to change - but if they treat me like I don't matter, then I can only assume they feel that my appreciation doesn't matter, and thus, a very low tip)

[Pithlet]

204. You bet I do

And it is, until those laws are changed. If they were already getting paid above and beyond the same minimum wage that others are entitled to, then I'd agree with you. But as long as their base pay is significantly lower than the minimum wage (which, in itself isn't livable) then I don't consider it a bonus. Anything below a livable wage is NOT a bonus. Anyone who puts in the hours and works should get a decent living. If they're really that bad, they're going to have a hard time holding a job anywhere.

I just can't believe that my dining experiences have been drastically different from most people. I appreciate good service, and you can bet they get a higher tip from me, which is a bonus. But, unless they throw the food at me, or insult me, or completely ignore me (in which case I leave before I even order)I'm not going to dock their pay out of a sense of entitlement. It's almost always better than fast food, or cooking it myself.

I'm sorry, but I just haven't encountered that much bad service, and until I had kids I ate out very frequently. Some people who leave little or tips genuinely got bad service. I can't fault that, even if I wouldn't do the same thing. But, I've dined out with enough grumps to know that most of the time it is the bad attitude about the tipping system itself, that accounts for a lot of low, or no tippers. A lot of the excuses used were things that weren't the wait person's fault at all. What's wrong with giving the benefit of the doubt, unless the service was truly awful?

[Rabrrrrrr]

205. But you see, I think here's the point you are and some others are missing

You said: But, I've dined out with enough grumps to know that most of the time it is the bad attitude about the tipping system itself, that accounts for a lot of low, or no tippers. A lot of the excuses used were things that weren't the wait person's fault at all. What's wrong with giving the benefit of the doubt, unless the service was truly awful?

I should think those of us who are saying a tip is not a right, are not saying they should never ever be tipped. We're saying, as you just did, if the service is truly awful, they don't deserve a tip. That's the only point I'm making, and I think it's the point the others are making. Of course, we all have differing definitions of "truly awful", but as I posted somewhere else in this thread, I've encountered poor service very rarely. I've had indifferent and not-so-stellar, but rarely had truly anger-producing piss-poor service.

I, too, can't stand the grumps who refuse to tip "on principle" or because they're cheapskates. That annoys the boy-o-boy out of me.

[Pithlet]

208. So, I guess we just disagree on the principle.

I think that maybe you are one of the rare people with the "Tips are not an entitlement" viewpoint that understands that truly awful service is indeed a rarity. Most are those cheapskates we're talking about.

Otherwise, why agonize over the situation? I think it's rather mizerly to be that concerned about it. I'm not going to sit there and try to figure out if maybe the person had a bad day, or is overworked, or just a truly bad waitperson. I just tip them anyway, because that is their living. It is not a bonus. The money just doesn't mean that much to me to make it a big deal. I don't have to depend on it to feed my kids.

[Emboldened Chimp]

48. Bad service = 10%

Standard service: 15%
Good-excellent service: 20+%

[La Lioness Priyanka]

56. dont tip

and dont complain to management...they could have had a bad day,,,,

[NicoleM]

57. The only two times that I didn't leave a tip

were when I got NO service. Once was at a restaurant that was almost empty. The waiter was too busy flirting with the waitresses to take our order for more than half an hour. When he finally realized we were still sitting there, he didn't bother to put in any effort. I assumed it was because he figured he'd already blown his tip.

The second one was at a really expensive (for where I live) place. Same situation--guy too busy flirting with waitresses to do more than take our order. A waitress who was obviously busy took pity on us and got us what we needed.

I didn't feel the least bit bad about not leaving tips in those cases. Otherwise I usually leave 20%. I've had to live on tips, too, so I know how important they are, but I've also never expected anybody to pay me for work I didn't do.

[GobGoober]

224. In the case you describe, I would do the following.

1) Tip the actual waitron maybe 10%.

2) Walk over to the waitron who took pity on our table and tip them 10% via cash.

[NicoleM]

265. Why?

The kid is standing there flirting with some girls, rather than doing his job. I can see it. He's not busy waiting on other tables. He's not running around because they're shortstaffed. He's goofing off while he's supposed to be working. Why am I supposed to pay him for that?

[GobGoober]

271. Because the IRS says you gave him that much money

So long as the IRS assumes an 8% gratuity, it is my opinion that 8% is the amount a gratuity should be for the absolutely worst service possible.

Notice also that I stated this is what I would do. There is no law which requires a gratuity. From an ethical and moral standpoint, I cannot personally tip less than 8% because America's answer to the gestapo (aka the IRS) assumes that is what every diner gives automatically on any cover.

[GabysPoppy]

64. TIPS

To Insure Prompt Service


Tip accordingly to the service received.

[ohiosmith]

65. Couldn't agree more.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

72. That's not really what it means...Urban Myth...

[denverbill]

67. Reduce the tip.

I tip very well usually. 20% or more frequently. I'm pretty forgiving too. If a waiter is extremely busy and I have to wait, no biggie. But if the place is damned near empty and it takes 10 minutes to get a menu, or I know my food is done (how long does it take to grill a burger) and my waiter doesn't appear for 10 minutes and my food is lukewarm when I get it, the tip goes down.

But the service would have to be damned near non-existant for no tip at all.

[noiretextatique]

84. poor service = no tip

i don't feel anyone is "entitled" to a tip, and i certainly will not leave a tip if i received poor service.
nor do i feel that by frequenting my local bar and having a drink that i am enjoying myself at the expense of others. the owners of the establishment certainly discourage people from tipping by charging *outrageous* amounts for drinks. if anyone is doing the exploiting (of employees and customers) its the owners of the bar. oh wait...that's called "business."
we should do what other civilized countries do...automatically add a gratituity to the tab.

[camero]

90. I tend to agree with you

But I think we should give them a better wage so that the word tip is not in our lexicon. I'm not against them getting a good wage but I can't reward bad or harmful service.

[OhioStateProgressive]

91. 2 dollars an hour

that is what they make

yes, I believe in automatic gratuity, but it seems around here this is a bad idea

[noiretextatique]

95. i'm all for a living wage

and if it puts soem establishments out of business...so be it. it seems odd this system of expecting customers to pay the expenses of the business.

[OhioStateProgressive]

103. i agree

and I appreciate you stating it so nicely and not rudely:)

the only reason I am getting upset in other threads is the lack of regard some people are showing in regards to these truly underpaid workers

[noiretextatique]

112. i understand

and believe me...i ususally tip, even if the service is bad :D i used to be a bartender, so i know how much people depend on those tips. well...works over, so time to get outta here :hi:

[Rabrrrrrr]

201. I agree with you BUT

ALL businesses expect the customers to pay the expenses. That's an essential part of being a viable business - have the customers meet all your expenses, with hopefully some extra left over to pay the owners.

I agree - I think the minimum wage should be raised to equal the minimum wage for everyone else. But I say that with the understanding that the cost of food will go proportionately up; and I wouldn't be surprised if we ended up paying more for that meal than we do now, even with tip included.

I think it is inane that we allow waitstaff to be singled out for extra-low minimum wages.

[MrSlayer]

94. Other. Beat the check.

[ohiosmith]

105. OK kids, play nice. I'm outta here. I'm gonna go to a nice expensive

restaurant and not only stiff the server on the tip, but dine and dash.

[MercutioATC]

106. For something like that, a small tip (maybe 10%).

If that was the quality of service throughout the entire meal, a quarter.

Occupational Darwinism. The good servers make money and stay, the poor servers don't and quit.

(I regularly tip 25%-30% for average-good service and I'm very friendly with servers)

[arcos]

150. leave no tip, don't complain...

the manager could fire him, and that would be much worse IMHO. If you don't leave a tip, you are personally punishing him. That's enough.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

170. You guys are forgetting one major thing:

These people are there by their own free will. THEY KNOW that if they want a decent tip, treating their customers right and making sure stuff is refilled, prebussed, etc is hinging on what kind of tip they make. THIS IS NO SECRET!!
Duckie

[Pithlet]

186. All people work of their own free will

It doesn't change the fact that most people rely on the wages from that work for their living. Most of the time it is their employer who decides if they did their job, and if it was a good one. Most of the time it is their employer who paid them. Not a stranger who arbitrarily decides whether they will get that wage and how much.

I don't think anyone has forgotten that wait staff aren't forced to work. I also don't think anyone is suggesting tipping lavishly for bad service.

[YNGW]

171. Leave one (1) penny

I remember that from a Dear Abby or Dear Anne Landers column. If you leave nothing, the waiter may have just thought you forgot. If you leave a penny, s/he'll know s/he screwed up.

[Bertha Venation]

176. Ooh, even I wouldn't do that.

That's more of an insult than anything I can think of. That's more of an insult than I received when a guy spelled out "EAT SHIT" in matchsticks on a table because I told him & his crew if they weren't going to order they had to leave.

[camero]

181. with some of the posters here

Who think nothing of somebody walking into a death trap. I think I will do that from now on.

[YNGW]

230. Reply

>That's more of an insult than anything I can think of.

It's also an insult for the waiter/waitress to ignore you and talk to their friends or whoever rather than do their job, as the writer of the original said happened. The one penny tip makes an impression. My guess is the waiter/waitress will know why and hopefully shape up.

>That's more of an insult than I received when a guy spelled out "EAT SHIT" in matchsticks on a table because I told him & his crew if they weren't going to order they had to leave.

I laughed when I read this, but only because it was like I could here you say it as I read it. :)

No, you were in the right there. That table represents business to the restaurant and money to you. If they aren't there to order, they need to move along. They can talk somewhere else.

Best To You.

[Bertha Venation]

237. and to you

:hi:

[Madrone]

258. lol- reminds me of a story

I worked at Denny's with an obviously gay guy - and one night he had a table with a real "macho" dude and his trophy girlfriend. The server did a good job, wasn't overly busy so remained attentive, and basicly did everything beyond well. (We were sharing a section, so I was aware of this table, and the service they received)

While the couple was paying their bill, the server went back to the table to clear it. When he did so - he found ONE PENNY. Nothing else.

He grabbed the penny as the couple was heading out the door, chased after them into the parking lot, HUCKED the penny at the guy's back and screamed "You obviously need this more than I do!" and stormed back into the restaurant.

Normally I don't find any humor in that type of behavior, but that one was FUNNY.

[Xithras]

189. I rarely tip anyway...and neither should you!

In my book, a tip is a bonus, I'm not obligated to pay anything beyond the rate of the food to anyone. If I tip, it's because the waiter/ess did a good job and I want to reward them for that. And if this financially hurts the waiter? Not my problem. The restaraunt industry in this country has a hell of a racket going on...underpay your employees and create a "social stigma" against not tipping, so that their customers will be shamed into paying the wages that they're too cheap to let go of.

Personally, I think that we'd all be better off if EVERYONE just stopped tipping entirely. If everyone did this, then waiters and waitresses across the country would demand more pay or quit...forcing the restaraunt owners to increase their hourly wages or go out of business. Until that happens, I refuse to be shamed into supporting unfair business practices by paying employees the money that their EMPLOYERS should be paying them.

[OhioStateProgressive]

191. and in the meantime

while people say "it's not my problem", single mothers earn 2.25 an hour

real compassionate

if you only want to pay for the food and nothing else...get your food from a grocery store and eat at home

[northzax]

214. or stay around

and contribute to tip inflation. There was a time, not too long ago, that 15 percent was considered the standard for good service. 15 percent is now an insult and unfair, according to you. In ten more years, will 20 percent be a bad tip?

[OhioStateProgressive]

219. never said that

I said you should always tip...I believe 15% is valid, but the main thing is you should always tip

[northzax]

221. right, my arguement is that

15 percent used to be good. now it's average, and 20 percent is 'good' ten years ago, you tipped 20 percent for great service. this inflation leads to restaurants paying less to their employees, since they 'make it up in tips" next up, 20 percent for 'normal' service? it's tip inflation.

[OhioStateProgressive]

222. maybe so

that is how the system works...it is how restaurants work

by going to eat there, you are agreeing to take part in it

[Xithras]

235. I agree to nothing of the sort

The only times that I have agreed to a contract like that are in those few restaurants where the tip is included as a part of the bill. In those cases, I understand that the tip is an integral part of the cost and I pay it.

Other than that, your argument is baseless. When I go to any kind of business, I am going there to purchase a product. The price of that product is set by the business, and is all I am obligated to pay. As someone else pointed out: Are we obligated to tip the guy who gets something off the shelf for us at Lowe's? What about the WalMart checker who rings us out? How about the butcher that wraps my beef every week? How about the guy at the movie theater who checks our ticket stubs? No, we don't tip these people because we are buying a product from their employer, and we understand that they are compensated for their work by their employers...and that a portion of what we are paying already covers that compensation. Ultimately restaurants are no different.

Personally, I see a better argument for tipping my butcher, who works with knives, grinders, and all kinds of of other potentially life-threatening equipment just so I can enjoy a good steak, than for tipping a waiter who's job simply involves walking a plate across a room and filling drink cups.

[OhioStateProgressive]

240. restaurants don't operate on that model of business

it is irrelevant to speak about what happens at wal-mart, or what happens at your butcher shop...those are not restaurants and restaurants don't operate on that model...they operate on the model described...pay a bill for your food, pay a tip for getting it...this is they model they operate under and by going to eat at that establishment you have made a decision to follow it

and I believe my first post on this subject mentioned that I am talking about automatic gratuity added as part of bill

[Madrone]

259. woohoooo -

<<<than for tipping a waiter who's job simply involves walking a plate across a room and filling drink cups.>>>

Them's fightin' words, buddy!

I'd like to see you do the job for one week - an attitude adjustment is in order and putting your money where your mouth is would certainly do the trick!

[northzax]

252. that's the way the system works

ok, I agree to not go out to a bar or a restaurant for a period of two weeks. in that time, I would normally have contributed to the jobs of probably 35 people, but since by participating, I'mallowing explotation, I demur.

I bet the guys who do give me good service in exhange for an increased gratuity will miss me, but I gots to have my standards. It'll save me a couple of hundred dollars in costs, and about another 100 in tips. phew, no more living off of some one else's labour.

[ohiosmith]

I get it! It's the customer's responsibility to compensate for the bad

life and career decisions made by low-wage single-parent workers. But wait. Have you no compassion for the grocery store clerks? Some of them are surely single parents limited to 20 hours or less per week so the employer can avoid giving them benefits. And no tips. Well I do care. I'm gonna get a hoe and some seeds and grow my own produce. I'll also buy some livestock for those times that I want a steak or rack of ribs. But how will I know if the workers at the hardware store and feedlot are being treated fairly? Are they achieving their career goals? Should I tip them? Damn, I may just starve.

[Pithlet]

273. "Bad life decisions"

That says it all.

I wasn't going to respond to this, but I just can't help myself. This goes way beyond the scope of this thread.

Look, you can go ahead and look down your nose at the people who serve you, so you can eat out, and make it easier to buy those groceries. No one is telling you you have to care. You don't even have to tip them! Isn't life grand? If it weren't for all of those "bad choices", who's going to schlep our table for us? Who is going to stock those shelves so we can shop? Who's going to keep the malls clean so we have a pleasant shopping experience?

I, for one, am glad that the people who made those bad choices are there. It sure makes life easier for me. And I hate that fact that that is the way it is. I'm certainly not going to turn around and say I don't care about their plight, because they made the choice to be there. I can't make you care, but it can certainly rub me the wrong way when you, or anyone else, doesn't. I think it says a lot about this country and why we're in the state we're in. Why people continue to turn their heads and not care, because "it's THEIR fault", so why not continue to exploit them?

Funny how some of those people may now be facing exactly those kinds jobs that others have because of "bad choices", because THEIR job was outsourced. I wonder if we'll start to hear a new tune form the right.

[Susang]

274. That's exactly the scope of this thread

This contempt for service employees is what keeps the present tipping system in place. Money equals power and control in our society. If tipping were eliminated, customers would be forced to treat their servers like human beings rather automatons. They would have less control over their servers since they couldn't threaten to withhold their tip in retaliation. I couldn't tell you how many times a diner has tried to use his tip as leverage to get me to do something, it would be far too many to count.

Customers enjoy the idea that they have power and control over another human being, as evidenced by many of the posts on this thread. For the most part, they do not care about the working conditions or wages of the people who are serving them, except as how it pertains to their wallet.

I may sound cynical, but after 20 years in the business, some cynicism is necessary to keep from losing your mind. I finally had to quit, mainly because I was starting to hate (and I do not use that term lightly) my fellow humans for how they treated me as a food service employee. After all, how many people can claim to have hundreds of critics a night, any one of which can irrationally accuse you of almost any fault and your job is to stand there, smile at them and take it, day after day, night after night or risk losing your job? Now that I work in what I laughingly call the real world, I realize that most jobs only have a couple of supervisors. In the restaurant business, everyone who walks in the door is your boss. And that is really hard on the psyche.

[Pithlet]

275. I don't think I could do it.

And I've had jobs where I have to deal with the public every day. That sucks enough. But my pay never depended on whether they had a say right then or there whether I got paid. I wouldn't have been able to stand it. I don't know how any one does.

I just can't believe that there are people here who think they're progressive, yet also have the mentality that people are in low paying positions because they deserve to be, so why feel sorry for them? It's a freeperish mentality, and it makes my blood boil. The reason why I mentioned going beyond the scope is that is just a bad attitude about fellow humans in general, but you're right, it goes to the heart of this matter.

[Pithlet]

192. I agree with you that it is a racket.

But the waiters problem does become your problem if you make the choice to participate in that racket of a system. If you don't like the tipping system, the choice really is simple. Fast food. Or eat at home.

If you choose to go to a restaurant and make someone wait on you, and then don't pay them for it (because the restaurant isn't) then you are morally in the wrong.

I can't believe I'm saying these things on a progressive board.

[Xithras]

210. Nobody forces them to work there.

When I eat in a restaurant, I do pay for my food, so my conscience is clear. If people choose to work their butts off for less than $3 an hour, that's not my problem...they should work elsewhere.
The federal minimum wage is $5.15 an hour, and the state rates vary from $5.15 an hour to $7.15 an hour. ANYONE who is working for less than that needs to get a new job (and no snide comments about the job market...even McDonald's, Taco Bell, and WalMart pay better than that and they're always hiring). Hell, you can make more money than that by mowing lawns!

These restaurant owners only get away with paying those kinds of wages because employees are willing to work for those wages. If you're willing to subject yourself to that kind of work for that little money, please don't try to act like I somehow "owe" you anything for it. I do tip waiters and waitresses who offer exceptional service, but I do it as a gesture of gratitude for the effort they have expended to make my meal enjoyable (consider it "above and beyond the call of duty" pay), and not out of any sense of obligation.

If you don't like it, ORGANIZE! Even in a "right to work" state you can picket, which at the very least will cause them to lose their union customers. I don't, however, see the point in badgering hungry people for charity when you could accomplish so much more by badgering your boss, as a united group, for a RAISE.

People underestimate their own power, and when given the choice between giving raises or folding the business, very few bosses will fold.

[ohiosmith]

213. Two excellent posts.

[Pithlet]

226. Nobody forces anyone to work.

So, that's really not a valid point, unless everyone is independently wealthy and is only working for kicks. We are not in an economy where people have their pick of jobs. For many, it is take what you can get. You don't know what that wait person's situation is. You're rather assuming a lot to think they can just pick up somewhere else, or better yet, organize (that is a hoot).

I don't buy the whole "workers are abused because they allow employers to do so" attitude. For some people, they don't have that choice. Employees do not have the power, right now. We're about to kiss overtime goodbye, for God's sake.

You make it sound like it is just so easy to organize. If that were so, union busting and dwindling unions would not be an issue. Now a days, if you strike or picket without a union, they will simply fire you. Then how do you feed your kids and pay the rent?

It isn't so much the attitude of tips that bother me, but this mentality behind it. The "If they don't like it, they can work somewhere else". In the meantime, how do they pay their bills?

The difference between you and me is that you think "Not my problem. These people don't have to work here. They'd better work for their tip". I think "These people are trying to make a living. I'm not going to hold the tip over their head. Unless the service is deplorable enough for them to be fired, I'm not withholding their paycheck" If the service is exceptional, I will tip them more as a bonus.

[Xithras]

239. Employees ALWAYS have the power.

And who cares if you get fired from a $3 an hour job...you can get better pay at Taco Bell and they're ALWAYS hiring. If there weren't plenty of low-wage, unskilled jobs available in this country we wouldn't have so many unskilled immigrants streaming across our borders to take them. I understand that the market is very tight for white and blue collar skilled laborers, but there has been no real contraction in the low-end job market...and you don't get any more low end than waiting tables.

As for your unfounded and fatalistic attitude that employees have no power, I can do nothing but disagree. When you and the other employees walk out of a business, that business stops running, and stops generating income. When you picket, you intimidate customers and potential replacements away. When you protest, you make them bend or you shut them down. Employees ARE the business.

Businesses can't run without employees, and NOTHING has changed that. If you believe yourself powerless, then the terrorists really HAVE won (and I'm not referring to jihadi's here).

[Pithlet]

262. Oh, please.

If acknowledging that people have to work to put food on the table is fatalistic, and helps the terrorists, then all I can say is "oh well". Really..

If you really believe that there are plenty of jobs for the taking for anyone that wants one, and that it would just be as easy as pie to organize and rail against the employers (who needs a paycheck?) then I think you're living in a fantasy land. One that I would dearly love to live in, but it just isn't happening right now.

It certainly isn't happening to a degree that those who have better paying jobs and can afford to eat out can look at the waitstaff and think it's completely justified to make them hop for their pay, and feel we're doing them a favor because they have a choice whether they want to be there or not.

I think the fact that anyone will bring me my food and drink on less than three bucks an hour, when it isn't even guaranteed that I'll make up for the rest, is something to be looked up to, quite frankly. They have my gratitude. Maybe that is why I don't get bad service very often? :shrug:

[TXlib]

206. Somebody please take camero and OhioStateProgressive

and knock their heads together.

God, it's been obnoxious watching you two go at it, apparently not reading what the other has to say, and saying THE SAME DAMN THING over and over again!

[OhioStateProgressive]

212. of course i said the same thing

i was right the first time...why would I say something different?

[YellowRubberDuckie]

215. That's unbelieveably arrogant of you...

You weren't right...you have entitlement issues.
Duckie

[OhioStateProgressive]

218. no

I stated my case, I believe I was right

In summation, here is MY argument, not what others said my argument was

If you go to a sit down restaurant, you pay a tip...your bill covers the cost of food, the labor of the cooks, the labor of the dishwasher who washes your plate...the tip pays for you getting your food from the kitchen to your table...this is how it is worked out

I never said someone shouldn't get a diet coke when they ask for it...I three times stated that poor servers were fired.

The restaurant system works this way...the customers pay a portion of the servers wage...by going to a sit down restaurant you are choosing to take part in that system

[mykpart]

209. My sister was out with her friends

and had a situation like the one described. They asked to speak to the manager when they were leaving. They gave the manager the amount they would ordinarily have left as a tip, and after describing the poor service, told him he could choose to give the tip to the waitress or not.

He declined to take the tip money, and also "comped" them on their check.

For some reason, serving people don't equate tips with good service. If service is poor, you need to let the manager know.

[Loonman]

211. Leave a tip, then kick the table over

n/t

[GobGoober]

217. In this case, I would leave an 8% tip and complain to the manager.

Also, if it is a chain, I would write a snail mail letter to the corporate headquarters.

I generally tip 20% as my starting point for adequate service. It's easier to calculate.

Really good service goes up from there. I've tipped as high as 35% for truly outstanding service.

Poor service goes down from there to a low of 8%. This is the tax threshold which is what the waitron is taxed on. If I am leaving an 8% tip (and I calculate it precisely), the manager will be talked to.

BTW, NEVER NEVER NEVER EVER TIP ON SALES TAX!!! Sales tax should never enter into the equation when calculating a tip.

[Duckiesplaything]

225. Just a few points

I've been watching this thread unfold and I just have a few questions.
What recourse does a customer have to combat poor service, if not to reduce the tip? Would it be better for the customer to complain to the management every time and potentially get the server fired, thus reducing not only their tips, but there entire (non-living) wage to nothing? Some posts seems to state that; so your server isn't doing their job, thats no reason not to wanna pay them.
I have also noticed some people saying that it is we, the customers, who are paying the servers a living wage, by tipping. Would this then not make us for a short time something similar to their boss? Meaning that if we (the bosses) didn't like how they were handling their job that we could fire them (by not tipping)?
Also, most eating Establishments I've been to where tipping is "expected" are fairly open, and it is quite easy to see your server at all times except when they are in the kitchen (except at a few where this is visible too). So it is quite easy without much effort to tell if your server is busy, over seated, etc.
Before anyone responds and starts yet another pointless tirade (because nobodies view will be changed), please realize that these statements are purely to find out another point of view and not as a personal attack or as a statement that the whole tipping system is wrong, or in anyway state that tipping should not be done under any circumstance.
Let the flames continue.

[OhioStateProgressive]

227. i agree with alot of what you say

first off, yes, as the customer you are in fact a sort of "employer"...but employers still have to pay for EVERY hour the employee works for them...you can fire your employee, but must still pay for all services rendered, all time worked

I think people SHOULD go to managers when they get bad service...this is why restaurant managers are there...bad servers do need dealt with...but the restaurant managers are quite willing to do their jobs:)

but I believe if you eat the food and drink the drink, you pay the tip...if it was bad service, go to the manager on your way out...I think it is appropriate

[Duckiesplaything]

231. First of all

Thanx for being civil, even though we might disagree on a few points, I see no need to get agitated.
So you think that it is better to get a person fired or "written up" than simply to dock their pay a little?
And even if you work for minimum wage or higher some employers do dock pay for poor performance or even worse reduce your pay entirely.
Also A point that was made earlier was that if you go out, even if you get bad service, you are still having a good time on someones dime, or something to that effect. If the service is truly bad it is very possible that a good time was not being had at all.

[Pithlet]

233. I would actually rather be written up

then get my pay docked, at any job I've ever had. That way, I knew I wasn't performing, and either had to get my act together, or get ready to find another job because my boss was going to fire me.

[OhioStateProgressive]

236. well

from the viewpoint of a restaurant manager, they would much rather know about a bad server...the problems never get fixed if the management can't fix them...one of the things that makes bad restaurants bad is lack of good management...this happens as a result of servers having too much control over their working environments...it is better for one server to get fired, the problem gets addressed, all servers work harder...if you just leave a bad tip, the problems never get addressed...I eman you get your presonal satisfaction of not personally rewarding behavior...but the problem never gets better, and it willr esult in worse experiences for all

my anger on these posts are because I got piled on, mostly with people who were putting out very cavalier attitudes towards this, basically blaming servers for working in an industry that relies on tips...I find that very offensive, blaming people for their shortcomings is kinda meanspirited...I admit to being angry in return

If I were to write an apology post to every person that I got angry with last night it would have my post count over a thousand, although I probably should do that

[Pithlet]

229. There is another recourse.

Don't go to that restaurant again.

It isn't firing them by not tipping them. It is making them work for you anyway (even if you deem the service substandard) and then not paying them. Firing them would be to leave, and not patronize that restaurant again. That, I have no problem with. Complaining to management is another option. I don't think anyone here has advocated tipping lavishly for substandard service. Personally, I don't think it is always wrong to not leave a tip, just that the instance should be rare.

Obviously, if a server is very rude, insulting, and abusive, they do not deserve a tip. It is the attitude of entitlement that has rankled me in some of these posts. The "They are working for me, and they'd better earn that tip, by God. They don't have to work here if they don't want to" not realizing or caring that while the tip is nothing to them, it is a living to the wait staff.

[Duckiesplaything]

234. By that same token

Isn't it true that working as a server you understand that your tips will be directly related to your performance, and if you provide substandard service then you should expect to get a substandard tip. And I do understand that some patrons won't tip well or at all even if service is extremely good, that said I don't understand why anyone would expect or should expect to get paid more or even at all for not doing the job they are hired to do.
If I go to work, and just sit around not doing what I was hired to do, I will probably get fired, and yes they may pay me for the time I've put in during that day but should I really expect them too? I think that is the heart of this argument, is what should be expected. If you don't do the work should you expect to get paid?

[Pithlet]

238. I agree.

You should know that going into the business. And I do believe that tips should depend on quality of service. I'm just looking at this from my perspective. I know that there are a lot of people out there who stiff regardless. The tip doesn't mean anything to me, but it is what they depend on. Therefore, I tip the minimum 15% (that is for bad service) because as someone who's not familiar with the business, I may not know that they're covering extra tables because someone called in, or their previous customers were shit, or they're new. I don't think you can always tell those things just by looking. I give the benefit of the doubt and give them the minimum. I don't have the attitude of "well, they can find work somewhere else if they don't like it" that has been said here in this thread.

And, if I don't do the work, the boss can fire me, but he's still required to pay me for the time I've been there, by law. He can't keep me on, and just dock my pay.

[Duckiesplaything]

241. I know

That your boss still has to pay you by law. What I'm saying is that if you know you didn't do the job, should you really expect him to?
My main goal in life is to try to get people to see things from the other side. I've been gifted with the ability to see almost every situation from both side (it's just my personality), so I try to do that for everyone else.
I know there are people who don't wanna tip unless the server takes em in the back room and does naughty things to them. And that is just wrong.
Some people have bad days, and they don't feel like doing things, I understand that. But as I've always said to certain people just because the last person in line ticked you off doesn't mean you should push that off on the next person. Rage is contagious, just like joy is.
I am the peacemaker.....bow before me....Muwahahaha....
Actually I generally like to tick off as many people as possible....but I'm feeling generous today.

[Pithlet]

242. Answer

Yes, I do. This is why: I think most of the time, people may not be aware of the kind of job they're doing. It has happened to me. Things had been very bad in my life, but I really wasn't aware of how it was affecting me until my boss took me aside, showed me that I wasn't selling as much as I used to, and talked to me about it. I kicked it in gear, then. That, to me, is much better than merely docking my pay.

I realize that the relationship between server and customer isn't long enough for something like that. That is why I give the benefit of the doubt. I usually tip about 25%. I'll add more for good service, not as much for not so good, with the minimum being 15. If it's so bad that it isn't worth a tip, they'll get a word to their boss, and maybe no or very little tip. But I'm talking throwing the food at me kind of service.

I'm not saying that everyone has to do it my way. I'm just asking for a little more consideration, and realizing that the tip is their wages, not a bonus. The "They don't have to work there if they don't want to, and they're working for me" attitude just really riled me up.

Regarding your always seeing the other side, that is great. I think that is essential to good debate. It's always good to look at things from the other side. I think maybe that is what I was trying to do, too, just not doing a good job of it. I do get a bit strident.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

248. THAT is my boyfriend...Didn't I tell you he was great?!

Welcome to DU, My play thing!
Duckie

[put out]

246. Some patrons are clueless.

It might be that a server is covering too many tables. It might be that some asshat in the kitchen is hung-over, incompetent, indifferent. Or the dishwasher didn't show up and people are having to take turns making sure there are clean dishes. Or that another server takes a plate you were preparing to serve to his/her own table. Then, it could be that the party being served sat down ready to be dissatisfied. Or is snotty and rude, but declines offers to speak with management. No, that would be uncomfy. Instead, they stiff the server.

Have a little mercy for those who make a living working to serve you food. If you don't want to tip, stay home. Please. Don't take out your feelings of personal powerlessness on those people trying to make sure you are satisfied in your drinking/dining experience. You won't be satisfied, ever.

[Pithlet]

247. I think you misread me

I agree with you, completely. There are about a hundred posts in here that are mine that have been saying pretty much the same thing :)

[OhioStateProgressive]

249. maybe all of us "agreeders":) should band together

if we concentrate all of our resources and energy in one state we could win it and stay in the race....:P

[put out]

251. Sorry I wasn't more clear.

I am agreement with you, too. It steams me, some of the attitudes. I spent a bit of time working for tips. I feel a little passionate about the subject.

Tell you, though. In my dating years, a poor tipper got no second date from me. No anything else, and I did not hesitate to tell them why and subsidize their poor tip, or just flat insist on paying for the meal. Anyone who was rude and stingy with servers was likely to be just as much an a**hold in the rest of life.

[northzax]

253. and what would you do

for the tip in the situation I described above where the bartender told me to "get my own fucking beer" can I tip below 15 percent for that?

by the way, in the District of Columbia, bartenders are subject to minimum wage laws that do not take into account tips.

[Pithlet]

255. That has never happened to me.

But if it did, I would get up and leave immediately, and probably see the manager on the way out.

I'm not saying that people have to take abuse, and pay for it anyway. That has never been my position. I'm not even saying that everyone should tip exactly when and how I would. I'm just asking for consideration. Know that the tip is not a bonus, but their wages, and should only be withheld completely under very bad circumstances. And if someone has the "well, they can work elsewhere if they don't like it" to maybe reconsider those feelings. Put yourself in their position. That kind of thing.

[HEyHEY]

254. No tip, don't bother complaining

Don't be a fink, just don't tip him. I can't stand these people that think tipping is a right no matter what.

[GobGoober]

256. Any restaurant patron is 100% in their rights to not tip

There is no law requiring a patron tip. By it's very definition, a gratuity is a gift.

I do tip and usually tip well. It is not a requirement, however.

[Pithlet]

257. Even those

who don't tip on principle, because they're against it? Just because they can do it, it's okay for them to do so?

I will consider it a gift when they're paid a decent livable wage to begin with.

[GobGoober]

272. Yes, everybody has the right to stiff anybody on any tip for any reason

There is no law requiring a gratuity. From the dictionary.com site:

gra·tu·i·ty n. pl. gra·tu·i·ties
A favor or gift, usually in the form of money, given in return for service.

[Pithlet]

276. Because the dictionary says so?

and there is no law against it, then it is perfectly okay, and not one bit immoral for me to go to a restaurant, make the person wait on me, and then stiff them, cutting their pay that they're going to have to pay taxes on anyway?

That is absolutely, utterly ridiculous. No one is saying there is a law that you have to tip for bad or no service. But that doesn't mean you don't have a moral or social obligation, particularly if the service is good. I've never called the wages my boss paid me a gift. Guess it's a good thing the dictionary backed me up, huh?

There is no law saying I have to be a good and decent person. But, I try to be one, anyway, no matter what a dictionary or law book says. Anyone who stiffs or under tips someone who is waiting on them for substandard pay when the service wasn't horrible maybe should not pay so much attention to what laws or dictionaries say for their moral guidance.

[Susang]

260. I finally finished reading all the posts on this thread

And I have to say that I am grateful that I recently quit the food service business. The post here only reinforced my first hand knowledge that my patrons had contempt and distinct lack of compassion when it came to the service industry. People here seem to be willing to make the most ridiculous assumptions about the people who work in food service that they would be embarrassed to say about any other profession.

Everyone has at some time experienced bad service at one time. Like I said before in a previous thread, the current tipping system gives the consumer an inflated sense of control over the server and the results can be toxic. Customers project their phobias, insecurities and anger onto us and then expect us to swallow it gracefully. 90% of the time we do. 10% of the time, things turn out badly and those times are used to justify a combatitive attitude against service employees.

I have to say that I'm amazed that I am not a millionaire with all of the people here who claim that they tip 30% +. I know this will come off as aggressively sarcastic, but my paycheck just did not bear this out and you couldn't blame this on my abilities, as I still have all of the complimentary letters and notes I have received in the last 6 years. On average, most people tip 15% after tax. I'm sure the other waitstaff here will agree with me that this is true. If you honestly do regularly tip 30% and more, then I applaud you, you are far more generous than the norm. Unfortunately, most people do not tip this way, even in the most prestigious of places.

The main thing that I believe is angering posters here is that by looking at the system of tipping, you must examine your own behaviors and motivations in the process. Americans have a bizarre relationship to their money and don't like to be forced to look at why we are so willing to stiff a waitress and at the same time consider eating out a necessity.

Pithlet, Proud DemocRat, OhioStateProgressive, I appreciate your posts immensely. You realize how hard it is to explain to someone who doesn't work in the industry how it works and why tipping is essential, even if the service is not up to your expectations.

Rabrrrrrr, we may disagree about this subject, but you have been more than open to listening to what I had to say about the economic facts of the situation and have debated with respect and decorum and I greatly appreciate you for that. That type of discussion and even disagreement is why I appreciate DU, you are able to see both sides of this, and while I didn't change your mind, you did listen to what I had to say. Thanks.

Thanks for listening to my rant and now I promise I'll shut up about this.

[Rabrrrrrr]

263. Nicely written!

I'm glad my friends are tipping people - makes going out so much easier when we get the bill and are in agreement that the tip should be pretty damn decent (unless, as I said before, the service sucked which I also said has happened only perhaps 3 or 4 times in the last 10 years).

I have had friends who think whatever the bill is, a buck or two is just fine for a tip. Argh!!

I think we're in much more agreement, at least in terms of final results, than you might think. Our motivations are different - I believe a tip IS a reward for doing for the job well, as opposed to an ipso facto entitlement. It's the entitlement speak that bothers me so much. But I also believe that, since the government allows waitstaff to be paid less than 12 year old paperboys, and since there are so many buttmunchers out there who don't tip "on principle" or require the waiter to effectively redeem their sins before they'll tip 10%, I feel that I DO have an obligation to reward the good service.

So we come at the issue of why and how to tip from different perspectives/motivations, but in the end I bet our tip leaving is pretty much the same in terms of frequency and amount.

p.s. - sorry I accused you of anti-Rabrrrrrr agenda in that other thread. I was fairly cheesed off, and it was inappropriate. Funny, in a clever word usage way (just say it out loud - it's funny), but inappropriate.

[MAlibdem]

278. Depends on if you want to follow societal standards or not

In relation to overt agression:

No agression:
Societal Standard-Say nothing, leave tip
Not-n/a

Slight agression:
Societal Standard-smaller tip
Not-take big dump on your plate

Agressive:
Societal Standard-Order waiter over to you immediately, tip the same or a little less
Not-get up and drag the guy over and smack him around a bit

Very Agressive:
Societal Standard-n/a
Not-shoot waiter in face, sleep with his wife, take a dump on his corpse.


Now that's what I call a Gratuity...HAHA