So I was talking about misogyny, and the males in the house are both upset

[MaryBear]

I said that the lyrics and actions in the half-time performance of Janet Jackson and Justin Timberlake during the Superbowl gave permission for misogyny and violence against women.

I talked about violence against women in general and men as a class as perpetrators of violence.

I excepted the men in my home. They still took personal affront.

[Dookus]

1. Hrmm....

I dunno. I've always felt that Janet Jackson has portrayed herself as the aggressor, or at least as a woman more-than-able to stand up for herself.

If Timberlake, had in fact, ripped off her clothes without her permission, I'd agree with you 100%. But it sounds to me like it was her decision and her plan. I think it's empowering.

A lot of feminists hated Madonna, too, for using sexuality the way she did. I think they were misguided.

[noiretextatique]

2. not so sure about this incident

i didn't see it, and i don't care enough to read about it. but i do agree with the other poster about janet jackson...she doesn't generally portray herself as a victim, or as a masochist. seems it was all one big stunt. side note: janet's in great shape, and she's no doe-eyed innocent. i suspect she could have kicked his ass if she wanted to.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

10. Hey Blu!

:hi:

[noiretextatique]

13. hey there hell

:hi: nice to see you

[Hell Hath No Fury]

3. Hey Grandma Bear!

:hi:

I find it tough to talk with guys about that subject, because it is always taken so personally -- I've never been able to find a way to frame it so that it is depersonalized for them.

I think this area may be one that men (in general) and women (in general) may never reach agreement on.

As a woman, I live with the same reality that you do -- and understand what you are saying completely. :)

[Lars39]

4. Have they actually read the lyrics to some of Timberlake's songs?

They are nasty. All the emphasis has been on her bare breast, when in actuality what everyone saw was a simulated assault.
Let your guys stew awhile. They'll probably start looking at things differently. We've got to speak up. We can't afford to be silent about violence towards women. I think we've already lost valuable ground.

[stevedeshazer]

5. Sore subject with me

I agree about the Super Bowl halftime performance. It was tasteless, no matter what you think of the performers.

However, you make the generalization that we (all men) as a "class" are perpetrators of violence, yet you excepted the men in your home.

Are the men in your home different from the rest of us?

[cally]

6. I agree with you

While I think JJ had total input into this incident, I still think it's misogynist. A man ripped off her clothes and she acted embarassed and covered herself up. That was the choreography. It was a stunt but it continues a whole culture that shows women as victim and not as women who fight back. Then there is the outrage against *gasp* showing her breast. That is absurd.

[noiretextatique]

7. doesn't that say more about the consciousness of JJ?

and women like her? if you ask me, that's far more disturbing...the notion that agreeing to be the victim in a simulated assualt is empowering.

[cally]

8. Yep

JJ, the choreographers, and the whole MTV and hollywood culture is all too often outrageously mysogenist. I don't blame Justin Timberlake as I think he's just a performer in this.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cally]

26. Thanks

I agree with you. They were all skanky and disgusting. I find it extremely disgusting that it's entertainment to pull off a woman's clothes. The drama indicated that it was without her consent. That's wrong.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

9. Arcane and I...

traded posts about where the women's movement has allowed today's gals to go. I mentioned that, as a feminist, I didn't know whether to be happy or cry over the fact that women were now "free" to flash tit on "Girls Gone Wild".

I find it interesting that today's women are returning in such a big way to the one "power" they have ALWAYS had through the centuries -- sex.

I'm one of those who is ambivilant about this new direction -- I feel I should be happy about it, but instead I am saddened. Call me old-fashioned. :)

[noiretextatique]

12. likewise...and it's not just sex

it's a kind of male-centered titilation ala the "girls gone wild" phenomenon. all those women kissing each other are doing it for the the attention of men...not to say they don't get a thrill from it :7
yeah...i'm saddened by it as well...i don't see it as progress, for the most.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

11. Hey Cally!

:hi:

[cally]

22. HI

I've missed all my SF friends. :hi:

[MaryBear]

14. Various issues here.

1. As a white woman I am part of the white class that has oppressed, whether I personally have or not. I don't have to buy either pride or guilt about it; it is just so. Ditto for men and oppression according to color, gender, or other status.

2. My dear partner seems forgiving so long as I stop talking about it.

3. Oppression takes many forms.

You all make good points. Is the prime one "consciousness"?

[noiretextatique]

16. i tend to think so...i see the differences

in women i know who grew up with at least some exposure to (real) feminism...and those who had no or little exposure.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[noiretextatique]

18. reminds me of the old 'subliminal seduction' book

that had me and my friends searching for penises and profanities in liquor advertisements back in the 80's. the techniques are probably a lot more advanced now, but i agree...they are designed to elicit certain responses.

[Dogmudgeon]

24. Seduction, subliminal and otherwise

The techniques may have been refined lately, but the agenda is very old. It seems to be especially strong in the Indo-European cultures -- but it can be seen in nearly every culture in the world.

Although most of "our" cultures come from Indo-European roots, we are at a cultural crossroads. Keep in mind that the earliest Indo-Europeans -- the Aryans, the Tocharians, and the Kurgans -- were extraordinarily violent bad-asses who make modern bikers and terrorists look friendly in comparison.

Simply -- our media are hell-bent on pushing our behavioral buttons until there is no more cash to be extracted from our hides. And then it will figure out how to install new behaviors.

--bkl

[lolly]

29. Wow, that was good

I really like that explanation, bkl. Makes things fall into place much more clearly now. I've always wondered why the (male) establishment keeps running ads that make men look beaten or stupid (exhibit 1: the referee w/the bitchy wife ad).

[Sapphocrat]

36. Some questions for you, BKL...

Men take offense to women complaining about male misogyny because it ignores their half of the problem.

How do women most contribute to the problem? I'm guessing the answer is a woman's expectation that a man play into the whole male hierarchy, and she heaps humiliation on him when he refuses to play that game. Is that right? Or at least close?

So by blaming non-Alphas for the sins of the Alphas, you hit a nerve. It makes the man painfully aware of his humiliation and low status. And since the message is "control your woman or be ashamed", that's the first thing men turn to.

What I'm getting from this, then, is that no matter how (for lack of a better word) "evolved" a man is, very few men can escape the idea that they're ...weaklings? sissies? abnormal?... if they buck the system?

Although, I think you begin to answer that question here:

It doesn't mean that your perception of misogyny is wrong. It means that men have not yet learned to voice their rebellion against being humiliated by proxy ...

How do you think women can help non-alphas feel more confident in their own choice not to run with the pack? If you have any ideas, please sing right out! I for one would love to contribute something positive to the situation -- which, I am beginning to perceive, is a hotter hot-button than I ever imagined.

But, as I mention to ProudGerman below, maybe the problem exists more on the periphery for me, because I don't relate to men sexually. Certainly, I've taken plenty of hits from real, live alpha males who would probably like to kill all lesbians (we are perceived as a major threat to them, of course), but those incidents are outstanding, and may even be frequent -- but they're not the norm for me.

Making cracks about how "all men are little boys" is nastier than you know.

I know you can't answer this from a female perspective, but do you think being dismissed as "little boys" is worse than women being dismissed as "little (read: stupid, weak, useless) girls"? I can't speak for all women, but the same sort of dismissal of women cuts to the bone for me, too. "You throw/run/play/cry like a girl" makes me angrier than you could imagine. Half of it is the dismissive attitude; the other half is the implication that there's something wrong with being female.

Yours was a fascinating post, BKL. Thanks for the insight!

[camero]

43. Why was it deleted?

It got to the heart of the discussion.

[Sapphocrat]

46. No kidding!

It was a little uncomfortable to read, but only because it made me see a little better just what a horrible bind men are in.

But I can't imagine why anyone would find it... what? "offensive"? ... enough to hit the Alert button!

Damn, that was a good post I wanted to read again later. I wish I had saved it.

[camero]

48. It was

one of the more profound posts I have read at DU. And that's saying alot.

[camero]

44. you could do this

It's just an idea to throw out. You asked BKL this:


How do you think women can help non-alphas feel more confident in their own choice not to run with the pack? If you have any ideas, please sing right out! I for one would love to contribute something positive to the situation -- which, I am beginning to perceive, is a hotter hot-button than I ever imagined.

A good thing would be to put your hand on his shoulder and say, "I know you're not like that, that's why I love you."

Positive feedback goes a long way.

[Sapphocrat]

45. I think I can manage...

...a hand on the shoulder and a slap on the back, but the "I love you" part would have to be appended by "as a fellow human being." :)

But, seriously, thanks, camero. Of course, positive feedback makes sense. I guess I'm just trying to work out how to best approach the subject of misogyny with a man/men, should the need ever arise (and, knowing DU, no doubt the subject will come up many thousands of times again).

I think what makes me squirm a bit is the idea of prefacing such a discussion with "Now, I know you're not all like this, but..." because it strikes me the same as does "Now, I'm not gay -- in fact, some of my best friends are -- but..."

In other words, I don't want to sound patronizing. Or would it sound patronizing?

Does that make sense?

Am I thinking too hard about this? LOL

[camero]

47. I meant your husband...lol :)

No, I don't think it would sound patronizing. Most of us know that it is out there and also want to help do something about it. It just helps to recognize that it hurts all of us.

After getting over the shock that I was looking at a breast on free TV, the whole stunt kind of made me sick for the reasons you stated.

In order for it to end, the non-alpha has to be prized over the alpha. Nothing that either of us could do alone. But together it could be.

I'm down with the "as a fellow human being" part. :)

[MaryBear]

17. BTW

Haven't been here in awhile. What a treat, seeing who all responded to the thread!

:bounce:


:hi: :hi: :hi:

[Laszlo_Hollyfeld]

19. I think I see your point, but from my own perspective

I got to look at a partially unclothed attractive woman. I'm a heterosexual male. I like looking at partially unclothed attractive women. I know there's a meta-message in those actions, but all I'm thinking of when I see a woman's breast is :boy howdy!: I don't get any messages about how violence is okay if you get to see a boobie. (Not that some younger, more impressionable men might not).

But I really think the meta-message I got from this incident is that sex is acceptable fodder for crass commercial sensationalism. And while I'm not picking up any messages about violence, it does tend demean and cheapen the beauty that is a deep lasting sexual union between two people. I guess it's really all about money, flash, and instant gratification. Here I was thinking sex was an intimate and sacred thing.

[MaryBear]

21. It's about power.

Power over, not power to do. As I understand Madonna's work, it has been about power to do. Not sure what JJ was trying to do. Whatever, it was a bad scene.

[cally]

23. I think the larger issue is that sex sales

instant gratification sales, and mysogeny sales.

And welcome to DU. :hi:

[put out]

25. Are they still speaking to you?

I learned, after some loud assertions on my part on the same subject, the men did take offense. They deserved to be offended, because after some media hysterical (see, the woman thing again) McNews in our paper about a rash of evil-doings perpetrated by men, I said "Doesn't all this shit make you ashamed to be a man?" followed by a loud and ugly debate about who does the most harm and the most good, ad nauseum. Well, I meant it when I said it, but I soon wished I hadn't said it. I have good men, the real good guys in my life. I wouldn't have liked it much if some woman had done something mean and nasty, and have one of them say "Doesn't she make you ashamed to be a woman?" Even if they excepted me.

I don't know the answer, but you have to take care when you insult a gender (or race, ethnicity, religion, all that).

I still would stand by your talking about it. Maybe they need to know that it is right under the surface of the smile worn by thinking women in their lives.

[MaryBear]

34. Yes

We still speak. That I acknowledged their sweet selves may have helped. I have a couple of the good ones.

[Sapphocrat]

27. Why?

I mean, why would any man take it as a personal affront if he knew it didn't apply to him?

Maybe that's a really ignorant question on my part, but I honestly don't get it. I'm white, and I'll be the first to agree that white people as a class are responsible for outrageous racist atrocities. When I was still a Catholic, there was never any question that the Catholic church has been responsible for mind-numbingly violence in the name of religion... etc., etc., etc. But that doesn't mean all white people are slave-owning Klan members, or all Catholics are psychotic Inquisitors.

Misogyny exists -- why is it so threatening for some men to admit that? Admitting it doesn't mean they're part of the problem. Not admitting it, however, makes them part of the problem.

:shrug:

[ProudGerman]

32. Maybe because we are ashamed about it

Maybe we take offense to it because we are ashamed of that kind of behaviour. Those of us who are the good ones know that that kind of behaviour is completely unacceptable, in fact, that kind of behaviour is absolutely abhorrent to us. When someone I consider a friend displays that kind of behaviour, they quickly stop being a friend. I don't stand for it at all.

There is also very little recognition for this fact in society. Recently, at work, a father of a young girl was encouraging this kind of behaviour in a young man who was previously a friend of mine. His exact words were "you're young, you should be tagging all the ass you can get". When I pointed out that his daughter is only a few years away from being one of "those asses", he simply shrugged and said that he "doesn't have to worry about it now, so what?" After I picked my jaw up off the floor, I walked off, I couldn't stand to be around that stupidity, or unabashed mysoginy. My manhood was questioned because of my distaste for this kind of behaviour, I was later informed.

Because we are guys, we get the uncensored mysoginy. We're one of the boys, so the inhibitions towards displaying that are dropped. If you women only knew....

So, we get to deal with that crap, which is enough to make us sick. Then we get to deal with the "see, you guys are all pigs. you all think with your dicks, you are all little boys." We fucking know it exists, we know its pervasive in our gender. There is no need to hit us over the head with it. When talking about it, a simple "I'm glad you're not that way" can go a long way to assuaging our feelings of defensiveness when men as a whole are being criticized. Just a little recognition, since society seems hell bent on ridiculing us.

[Sapphocrat]

35. ProudGerman...

First, thank you for that considered response. I think I do understand a bit more now.

I'm going to ponder your words further, and think about how the subject might be approached in a less threatening manner.

See, the thing is, not all women see all men as brutish alpha males. I don't -- which is why I'm having such a hard time comprehending why the subject is so taboo (some of the defensiveness I see in this thread alone blows me away).***

If you have any thoughts about how women can approach the subject of misogyny, without men feeling lumped into a group and attacked, I'd be most interested in your insight.

Finally, I know I'm not alone when I say we (women) really do recognize and appreciate men like you who refuse to put up with that mindset and associated behavior.

So, for what it's worth: I'm glad you're not that way. Sincerely. :)


*** The funny thing (to me) is that if there's one "class" of women who are expected to dismiss all men as jerks, it's lesbians -- of which I'm obviously one. Sure, there are separatists among us, but in general, I don't think think lesbians are anything like the castrating man-haters we're made out to be. Maybe that's because a lot of unfair assumptions are made about us, too. Maybe it's due to our close proximity (at least in spirit) with gay men. Or maybe it's because we don't deal with men in the same way straight women do (I expect misogyny is more apparent to women who love men and live with them, than to those of us who see you only as friends and co-workers). In the end, much of it remains a mystery to me; after all, my understanding of heterosexual dynamics is completely secondhand. :)

[stevedeshazer]

28. Okay, I give up.

We're all misogynists and violent. You all have convinced me.

I'm going to cut my penis off now so it won't offend any of you.

[put out]

30. Hey, don't do that.

I live with the good guys, was reared by them, and am rearing them.

Plus, if you cut off your penis, you might not like it. Now, that might make you feel a little hostile.

[stevedeshazer]

31. So I might be hostile without it, too?

Guess I'll keep it then. Do I need a concealed weapon permit? :-) I do keep it in my pants.

[put out]

33. I hope you will continue to be kind and thoughtful, as you have been.

I surely didn't mean to insult you. Would it be animal abuse though, if it was never taken for a walk? I'm going to alert the Animal Cops. Walk that dog.

Having a smart mouth is almost as good as having a smart brain.

[Loonman]

37. The Superbowl halftime was tasteless and unacceptable

But what if I generalized females as a class as being vain, shrewlike and money grubbing?

I'd get crucified, that's what would happen.

Women are cpable of perpetrating as much crime and violence as men are, you just don't hear about it because it isn't PC.


How many men are physically and mentally abused by their spouses?

Probably more than you think.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

38. Of all the women I have known in my life...

(which is far, FAR too many) who have been beaten senseless, raped, gang raped, and sexually abused, they have had men as their perpetrators. Every single one of them.

Those who have sexually harrassed me have all been men.

That is a harsh reality.

Are most men going to act this way towards women? Probably not.

But as a woman in this world I would be stupid not to hold this information in the back of my head.

[noiretextatique]

39. an excellent point

women are be capable of violence...and i know a few who have committed some heinous acts of violence. however...the numbers just ARE NOT THE SAME..i know more women who have been abused by men than the reverse...the statistics in just about every culture on earth reflect this reality.
saying so is not "male-bashing"...it's just the UGLY TRUTH.

[geniph]

40. It's an interesting question

There are a couple of reasons why female-on-male violence seems to happen less often (cops responding to DV complaints all pretty much say they see equal amounts of violence perpetrated by each gender). One is that many men are ashamed to complain about being hit by a woman. The other is that a woman tends to do less physical damage when she is violent (obviously, there are exceptions), so fewer men seek help or visit emergency rooms.

I HAVE known men who were abused by their spouses, and who did not retaliate, because they were not themselves violent people and they were reared not to hit people, especially smaller people. But when a man hits a woman, he tends to do more damage.

[Richardo]

41. Heck, even *I'm* offended by the "men as a class" line...

Men are not a class - we're individuals, and those of us who don't beat our family members resent being lumped in with the - what? 10%? - that do.

[geniph]

42. Generalizations tend to put people on the defensive

It's better, in a case like this, to direct your objections at specifically-misogynistic people, actions, or traditions. The majority of men are not abusive. Many would never lift their hand in anger against a woman or a child. My own husband - come to think of it, this is true of every guy I ever dated - is the type who would never resort to physical violence against a smaller opponent.

The question I do want to raise about this whole tawdry incident, though, is this:

Do you think people's reactions would have been even more extreme if this had been, say, 50 Cent tearing the bra off of, say, LeeAnn Rimes? In other words, if it had been a big, intimidating-looking black man forcibly disrobing a blonde white woman?

I think there'd be an investigation of the MAN's actions and a demand for HIM to apologize.

[onebigbadwulf]

49. We're a fundamentalist christian country...

Violence against women and mysogyny is not only welcomed, but supported.