Help with an unruly boy! (please help)

[waylon]

I have 4 sons, 3 stepsons and 1 of my own. My oldest is 15, his father lives in W Virginia. Ive only been around him for 4 years so I had no influence on his early discipline and behavior.

My 15 year old has always been brash and quite sure of himself, even for that age. He is a little too disrespectful to his mother and me, bully's his little brothers more than "normal", his grades are marginal at best, he consistently slides on his chores, asks more of the family than he is willing to give, lies directly to us, and is just plain rude more often than is tolerable. On top of that, he has come to the conclusion that since he is now 15, he is now a man and should be afforded those priveleges.

He told his mother he had been smoking, drinking on a few occassions, and hes recently been looking at porn on my computer. (He now thinks he can fool me because he learned how to manage the history and he cache :) I dont go nuts on any of these issues because I realize that boys will be boys. But, I dont tolerate the lying and disrespect.

He has learned how to manipulate his mother very successfully. In the past when he got into trouble, he often would tell us that he wants to go live with his dad. This would naturally upset my wife which in turn would result in her backing off the discipline and apologetically treating him with kid gloves. This tactic has gotten him out of trouble on countless occassions.

His attitude lately has become worse. We allowed him to join the wrestling team if he kept his grades up. His grades are questionable at best. He calls his mother for a ride home from wrestling (a mile is waaay to far to walk for an athlete). He gets home at 6, his chores arent done, he argues about doing them, makes no effort at his homework, back talks when questioned on anything, and resorts to name calling and bullying his brothers if he doesnt get his way. We came home Sunday to find that he had been looking at porn after he promised he wouldnt, pissed on our back deck, and then copped an attitude with US because we took issue with him.

We have had it. We have talked to him countless times, pleaded with him, punished him, and reasoned with him. It is NOT working. So, after some discussion, my wife decided to let him know that it was time to start acting like a respectful and polite boy or we would have to make other arrangements with his father. (Send him out to live with his dad, without sounding like a threat or punishment) But, before she could have the talk with him, HE decided that he wanted to go live with his dad...in 6 months or when HE decided.

This upset my wife terribly. She had prepared herself to send him out to his dads, but it would be because of his behavior. But since he beat her to the issue, she feels like he will leave because of OUR behavior. Now she is in a spiralling guilt trip and he is taking advantage of that in every way.

I dont know what to do. He is still rude, disrespectful, (smart ass would be a better term), wont do his chores despite now being paid for them, name calling, bullying etc etc. My wife is now more apologetic than ever. Rushing home to do his chores for him, running out the door to pick him up in fear of irritating him, and refusing to follow through with her discipline.

So, rather than demanding that his behavior changes, she now is more concerned that he doesnt leave. I cant make her see that he is manipulating EVERYONE and grinning about it the whole time. I might not be so cynacle but he has played this game too many times before. I am fed up! What should I do?

[Sagan]

1. New Mexico Military Institute

If I were you, I'd get a bunch of brochures for military schools and bookmark a lot of those sites on the net. Let him see you looking at them and hear you talking to your wife about them.

That'd be a good bucket of cold water on his attitude.

Additionally, you can't back down. yank him off the wrestling team and ground his ass until he realizes you mean business.

Why are you paying him for chores he doesn't do? Why is he allowed to have extracurricular activities with poor grades?

I'd say call his bluff and let him go to his Dad's. New school, no friends, etc. He won't do it.

[TXlib]

5. I second that. Send him to military school.

[radwriter0555]

33. Military school? So he can be brainwashed and institutionalized into a

republican?

I don't think so.

[waylon]

7. thats not bad

but he knows we cant afford a military institute. Unless Im mistaken, thats about 11k per year or more.

And all the rest you mentioned makes perfect sense but, I think the problem now is his mother more than him. She wont do ANYTHING to make him feel unwanted now. She is terrified he will leave and hate her for the rest of his life.

He knows how to play her emotions very well. But you make very good points.

[waylon]

10. Another Issue is...

He knows that if he plays it cool and sucks up for a while, things will blow over and MOM will forget about it. He plays the role when she is around.

I am not all that comfortable in constantly bringing it up. It makes me sound like I dont want him here. Thats not the case. I just want him to respect the house and the rest of the family.

[blm]

8. Second with Sagan's idea.

Let him see THAT site in the history. A few brochures ileft n the bathroom might help, too.

[demnan]

Well this all depends on his Dad

but to stay with his Dad for a while might be a good thing. Especially if his Dad uses a bit more discipline than his mother seems to.

He's a big boy, he can do without Mom for a while, unless Dad's a total beast (and if so, this may be part of the problem).

[CO Liberal]

2. Find a "Tough Love" Group In Your Area

They helped some friends of mine deal with their unruly daughter.

[lcordero]

3. take the computer or any form of entertainment out of his room

and let him on it only when he has to do his homework. Do not pay him for chores.
He lives in your house and if he lives in your house then he will should follow your rules.

[liberalhistorian]

4. You know, as a single mother,

of a 12-year-old boy, I've always been upset by people, men and women alike, who don't want to even consider dating or dealing with single parents. But the more of I read of things like this, the more I see exactly where a lot of them are coming from!

[displacedtexan]

6. Call the wrestling coach before you do anything else.

I taught for 25 years, and coaches were great motivators! If the coach can't motivate this kid, counseling would be my next suggestion.

If you just let him go with his dad, he will figure you don't care enough about him to fight for him. Kids are weird that way: everything is a contest. Talk to his dad, too. Could be that dad doesn't want any bullshit from the kid, either.

[Kamika]

9. Military school

It'l learn him discipline

[Loonman]

11. Falsify his age, forge his sig, and ship him to Parris Island

USMC Drill Instructors have a wonderful way of instilling discipline in unruly boys.

[Warren Stuart]

12. I dunno, sounds like an average 15 year old to me

Heck, wrestling might be good for him. This is a tough age where you can do nothing right, no matter what you do the kid will want to do the opposite.

Is he hanging out with a "bad crowd" has he gotten in trouble with the police? Just because his grades are marginal and he has an attitude dosn't make him a bad person. Military Schools may not be the answer, your kid may end up hanging out with tougher kids then he left.

It may sound trite, but patience, love and understanding may be your best (and cheapest) weapons.

[waylon]

15. No

He's not hanging around any real bad influences anymore. Although one of his friends is the one who apparantly has been the source of the beer, Im not all that worried.

Wrestling is a good thing for him but he doesnt bring home what he learns on the mat. He understands very well what he can get away with at home.

Patience and understanding are waning. Love has alwasy been there.

[Hoosier Democrat]

13. Part of the fault lies with your wife as well

Without being disrespectful, she seems to be way to wishy-washy on the issue. This kid is not dumb, he sees her threats as what they are: Empty. You and your wife need to follow through!

My first suggestion is to send him to his Dad's. Just tell him that you've decided that he's 15 and can make his own decision on where he wants to live. As he is saying that Dad is his choice, send him there as soon as school lets out in May. Tell him NOW and let him stew for a few months. If he's truly serious about wanting to move there, this will be fine. If he's using it as a bluff (which I suspect), this will shock him. If you decide this, DON'T BACK DOWN!!!

The idea that your wife is hurrying home to do his chores for him is a joke. She needs to STOP BABYING HIM! I am a single parent of a teenager and I know how they can be. My in-home philosophy is this: If chores are not done, there will be consequences. For example, I have told my son to take his laundry tot he laundry room and I will do it. I will not, however, pick up his laundry and haul it down to the basement. Likewise, when laundry is done, he takes his to his room and puts it away. Last week, he decided to "forget" to bring down his laundry for a few days. Was he shocked when he ran out of clean clothes for school. When I heard "Dad, I don't have any clothes for school!!", I responded with "Well, there weren't any in the laundry this week." Since I only do laundry every two days or three days (depending on the volume), he got to wear dirty clothes to school for two days. Odd, but the next day, there was not one piece of dirty laundry left in his room.

[waylon]

16. That about sums it up!

I guess my real question is not how to deal with the boy, but how to deal with my wife. Much touchier issue.

[truthspeaker]

22. Bingo, your wife is the problem.

She seems to be making the classic mistake of trying to be his friend instead of his parent. He needs consistent discipline and predictable consequences for his actions. She cannot let him see her fear that he will move away or "hate her". Teenagers are not supposed to like their parents. They are supposed to respect them. Liking them will (probably) come later. You seem to have the right idea, but until your wife is on board nothing will change.

What is her relationship with his father like? Ideally she could contact him and work it out such that even if he does go to live with him the rules will be essentially the same.

I agree with the advice to involve the coach. Let the coach know about the minimum grades necessary to keep wrestling. That way the coach can tell the boy that if his grades slip he will be letting the team down as well as his parents.

But without your wife's cooperation nothing will improve. He is playing her like a fiddle. She needs to be the one in charge, not him.

[peachy]

14. self confidence

I was in about the same shape as your son is when I was a teenager, its amazing the hell that I put my (single) mom through. I joined the military at 17 and although I don't give the military credit for much and certainly wouldn't advocate anyone joining now, I realize that I got something out of bootcamp. I learned that I could believe in myself. I think that is what everyone here is really trying to get at and I think that there are a lot of ways to learn that. From miltary school to outdoor programs like outwardbound (www.outwardbound.com).

Some of these programs tend toward physical and mental abuse and I believe that you need to be very careful about the leaders your son would be working with. If you or someone you know is involved with something physically challenging perhaps the can get your son involved. He needs to be pushed to recognize his own potential - i think it'll work wonders.

[jean]

17. your wife needs some counsel

how about checking with the high school - they may have staff who can help her see through the mind games he is playing.
If they don't have staff maybe they can offer referrals so she can get some outside help.

It would be interesting to know if this boy is at all like his father. Maybe her distraught reaction goes back to that first marriage - maybe her extreme distress is rooted in left over emotional trauma from that relationship.

Talking to the wrestling coach is a great idea - also talking to each of his teachers. What's he like in school (probably an arrogant, slacker idiot with potential)? You still have nearly half the school year left to use whatever they have to offer you.

on edit: after reading some of the comments about your wife being weak or wishy washy - I'm sure she is a perfectly smart, capable woman. The question is why can he push her buttons so easily and she doesn't recognize it? There's emotional pain here - she needs to get at that.

[waylon]

18. Good points

He is like his dad, from what Ive been told. Not sure it has anything to do with my wife's relationship with his dad but maybe.

He tends to act the same way at school and wrestling as he does at home. He will get away with what he can, when he can. Does just enough to get by etc. He does well in wrestling but then again, he cant manipulate his coach!

Edit: She knows she is wishy washy. I have got on her about it but you cant push too much. She is more concerned with him hating her than anything. She has made strides in being more consistent and following through but he played the Ace card on this one. Im not sure she is ready to tackle that yet.

[Bunny]

19. The problem is your wife.

Sorry to be so blunt, but there it is. She needs counseling to help her set boundaries with her son. The issue isn't just the 15 yr. old - you've got three more warming up in the bullpen, and two of them are also your stepsons. It may not seem like it, but they will be paying attention to how you're handling the oldest one.

This boy may be a typical 15 yr. old, but his behaviors ARE unacceptable, and you are within your rights as a parent to insist on a certain standard of behavior. Get your wife some therapy.

Good luck.

[radwriter0555]

28. EXACTLY what I was going to say. SHE needs to learn WHO the PARENT IS!

You seem to know, but are respectful of her boundaries.

Your wife, bless her heart, needs to learn how to be the parent, not the buddy and best friend.

Counseling for everyone please.

[Rowdyboy]

20. The three younger boys are also watching and learning

and you guys are setting the standards for their teenage behavior now. If he can manipulate your wife's so easily, then the younger boys likely will do the same and you both will have unmitigated hell on your hands for the next fifteen years. Plus, no disrespect, but your wife is not doing the boy any favors by her behavior toward him. She's creating a monster (or several) by letting him abuse her love. She really needs to get a spine (God, I must sound like Dear Abby).

I wish you well, my friend. Thank God, I have dogs, not sons. They appreciate what you do for them.

[FunBobbyMucha]

21. Your wife nees a spine.

You are one unenviable guy, Waylon. I agree with almost everyone above: As far as military school as a threat, and your thinking he'd see through it, make sure that history shows not just the military school sites, but financial aid and loan sites right next to it. That'll make him think you've got some options, even if you don't really. (BTW, as a long-term vet of working with kids in psych, my anecdotal impression is that boot camps and military schools just make sociopaths into buff, efficient killing machines, but let's ignore that since it's a threat you don't plan on actually pursuing).

Total word to the poster above who points out the bullpen. You wanna go thru this how many more times? Your wife, for whatever reason, is cowtowing to this kid to a ridiculous degree. It sounds like her worst fear is that he'll actually go live with BioDad (to which I say, "Ha! West Virginia? Good fuckin' luck not goin' crazy there, punk!"). I would investigate the reason for this. There may be some abuse or neglect in the Biodad's past that she's never revealed to you, maybe that's why she's so hesitant. If there is no untoward reason, then I think I would put it in terms to her of "Honey, we're gonna have to lose one heiffer to save the rest of the herd." Every second SmirkBoy spends ruling that roost is an instructional guide for Little Brothers 1 and 2. Maybe even Little Stepbrother.

Your wife needs some counseling. She's got some serious issues with limit setting and being manipulated. If she let go of that anxiety about losing him to the lushlands of West (snicker) Virginia, she would probably feel like a car has been taken off of her chest.

Also, the coach angle is a good theory. He doesn't have to be political like you do, and he can lord something over the kid that the twerp actually cares about. He's also a set of eyes watching out at school. A good ally, but that depends on whether he's a good guy and will see your side of it or not.

There's also counseling and meds for the kid himself, but I am, frankly, sick of trying to prescribe away every bad mood in America.

What, if any, kind of one-on-one relationship do you have with the kid? Is it different, better or worse than it was __ years ago? Does he have any respect for you? Any affection? I would assume not, on the former, at least.

I feel for you, Waylon (Jennings). Mamas don't let your babies grow up to be stepdads.

[JackDragna]

23. Sell him for medical parts.

I can get you good prices.

[truthspeaker]

24. "Have you considered exile?" - Principal Skinner

"Don't be ridiculous!" - Marge

"Now, Marge, hear the man out." - Homer

[afraid_of_the_dark]

25. Find someone who seems to manage him well...

like his wrestling coach, a teacher, another adult, etc., and ask them what they seem to think works best with him. Maybe they have thought of something that you haven't...

Also, take the opportunities when he does something RIGHT and make sure to praise him for it. You don't have to go nuts telling him "What a good boy!" he is, but even something so simple as thanking him for telling you the truth or being considerate can be helpful. From what it sounds like, you'll have to start with small things (not rolling his eyes when you ask him to do something, etc.), but even rewarding the approximations of acceptable behavior will lead to a greater desire to please.

Good luck!

[geniph]

26. Show your wife this thread

I'm serious. It might make her think about why she's knuckling under to a child. A 15-year-old still needs boundaries, and that kid is in desperate need of some right now, or you're in for a world of hurt with the other three.

I have two teenage stepsons myself, and we've fought some of these same issues, but one thing my husband was absolute about is that he would not allow the boys to play one parent off against the other. When they started that, he actually called and talked to his ex-wife about it, and worked things out.

Does the biological father want the boy? Will you have to pay him child support if the boy does go there? Will the younger boys want to follow him? These are all things where all three of the adults need to sit down and talk. Sometimes, depending on what bad feelings there are between the ex-partners, that isn't practical, but that's always the best place to start.

[Rowdyboy]

27. One small point

I don't know your child, but most judges consider a minor of 15 old enough to decide for himself which parent will be his custodian. You might even try to include the child as an active participant in your decision of what to do, if you're still willing to talk to him at this point...Again, its hard to say without knowing the child or the natural father.

[Mass_Liberal]

29. ader

[waylon]

30. Ok, my WIFE read it... I could be in huge trouble now YIKES

She didnt seem too upset, except for not defending her when less than generous comments were made about her. I can live with that I guess.

Thanks to all for the help. It looks like she understands that she is part of the problem... now she needs to become part of the solution.

[radwriter0555]

31. WOW, she sounds like a good person who is willing to confront and manage

a situation!

You two are really good together, aren't you?

It'll all be FINE.

((((hugs)))) to both of you, and that KID.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

32. I have experience with this...Please read...

Your description of your stepson makes him sound very similar to my 16 year old...defiant, doing as little as he can get away with, foul-mouthed, etc...

The last straw for me was when my son hit me for the second time...I should have acted before the first time ever occurred. Because I was most often the parent who determined punishment, and my husband would most often allow our son to bargain his way out of said punishment; it was clear to me that the problems we have extended beyond my son.

A few sessions of family counseling through the local university's family services program have helped us become more open to discussing issues before fights can erupt. We're figuring out how to set reasonable limits that he can feel comfortable with. Best of all, he's taken it upon himself to continue individual counseling sessions, saying he finds them helpful. One of his counselors is a man, which in my opinion is a good thing for an adolescent boy.

As to his computer-viewing habits, I think you need to protect all your children from what he may be watching. I've not really tested it yet; but my Norton Internet Security 2004 software came with what seems to be a decent parental control feature. Only you can flip the off switch, only you can change the settings. There are settings for very young children as well as older children. You can also allow certain sites that don't fall into Norton's definition of appropriate (or inappropriate) to be viewed or blocked, which is a nice option. It'll make your stepson angry; but if he hasn't learned self-control, you need to administer control yourself.

Another plug for the counseling: I know how frustrating it is to deal with this sort of BS when you feel you have a life of your own to get squared away...when you feel like "Dammit, the kid's almost an adult, why can't he act like one?!" :grr: Get counseling for yourself, so you don't lose touch with you. I think you'll find that it will help you see this experience as a gift, rather than mere hell.

:hug:

[snobird]

34. Told My Story

.. other than the difference in names & location, you have told my story. I was a Mom like your wife many 24 hrs ago.I was so "grateful" that my youngest son chose to come & live with me & my partner, that I 'overlooked" unacceptable behaviour. The abuse that I endured was dreadful, however, as a Mother I felt that I could "fix it" ! I was not prepared at that time,to accept that the best thing to do was to find help for myself & my partner.Tough Love had/has a simple way of dealing with issues. Guess who chose to complicate things?? Yup you got it.. lil' ol me. After many encounters with police, detention, courts, counsellors ( telling me & partner what we were doing WRONG)etc. etc. etc. WE FOUND A PARENT SUPPORT GROUP HERE IN CANADA! It was not called Tough Love but was based on the same premise. Believe me that support group saved our sanity. They have support people that work right along with you. Regular folks going through the same things as you are..CALL THEM !! Until you can get to the group, pick up the books "Tough Love".
( Libraries prolly have them ),or the Internet should tell you where closest group to you is. Let me know how you made out, & My prayers are with you & your wife. I HAVE BEEN THERE!!
Lynn