For women: What is your view of people that play Dungeons & Dragons

[NewJeffCT]

I'm involved in a very lengthy thread on another board (focused on D&D) about attracting more women into the hobby of role-playing games and Dungeons & Dragons.

I think the main problem is the image of D&D gamers as a bunch of pasty-faced white guys with poor social skills that live in their parent's basements despite being 30+ years old. But, I could be wrong.

But, I wanted the perspective of women who are not members of the Wizards of the Coast (the company that owns D&D) forums.

Thanks

[WritingIsMyReligion]

1. Haha I love roleplaying.

At least you know they're creative and geeky. :thumbsup:

[NewJeffCT]

11. This is the thread

It's already got over 450 replies. I'm NewJeffCT there, too.

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=909201

[LeftyMom]

2. You forgot the Mountain Dew.

:rofl:

[NewJeffCT]

7. never drank it

and, most gaming tables I've been at have used bottled water as the primary drink. But, I do know the image of guys eating chips & drinking their coke/pop/soda at the table.

[LeftyMom]

15. Ah, the guys 'round here live on it

or the generic equivalent in between checks. They all kinda look it, too.

[electron_blue]

3. Yeah, all that, but I would place their age at half that (teens, not 30's)

Just my uneducated view......

[noamnety]

4. I don't really have thoughts about them one way or another

personally, that kind of game bores me, so I wouldn't bother.

I question why they want more women involved. Did you ask them that?

[NewJeffCT]

6. expanding sales, I assume

D&D is probably 90% a male hobby. 20 years ago, I bet it was closer to 95%. I'm guessing that close to 90% of those males are white as well.

If they can double the amount of women in the game to 20%, it would expand their sales and bode well for the long-term health of the hobby.

[noamnety]

8. On principle, I have issues with that.

Ask them to go find someone else to exploit, if they're only asking cause they want to profit off of us.

"How can I sell you something you aren't interested in and don't need?"

eh, leave us alone.

[NewJeffCT]

10. it's not just sales, though

there are plenty of women that read Harry Potter and other fantasy, like anime, watched TV shows like Buffy the Vampire Slayer, etc. It's also about getting those women into the hobby. Back in the 70s, D&D started off when it was mostly guys who read "Lord of the Rings" books, or the Conan books, or similar. There were not many women who had read those books and were into fantasy. Now that the genre as a whole has expanded to include a lot more women - what can we do to expand the appeal of the game to women as well, and support women that are already in the hobby.

[noamnety]

13. I'm still trying to figure out why you need to.

If the goal is to make money off women by selling them crap they don't need and aren't interested in, that's a bad goal. See my point?

This isn't something you're doing because it benefits women - women are just fine without it.

[NewJeffCT]

34. well, what about making women feel more welcome into the hobby?

The thread I referred to in my OP wasn't just about increasing sales. It's also about making women in the game feel more welcome, rather than sometimes just the token

[noamnety]

41. an image

thoughts?

[NewJeffCT]

58. it came up as a red x for me

sorry.

[noamnety]

74. Darn it. Try this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeon_Master's_Guide

First image on the left side - the red guy with the sword. Click on that to enlarge it.

Try looking at that, while saying that you just don't understand why women don't feel welcome in this world, or why they don't find it as appealing as men do.

[NewJeffCT]

79. That's a 30 year old pic

the game has changed a lot since that time. The original company that published that book went out of business and were bought out by Wizards of the Coast. The rules have been updated at least 3 times since that book came out in the late 70s.

[noamnety]

83. The perception, though, remains

(and mind you I'm in my 40's, so that's my first impression and it's imagery that's obviously still out there) it's that it's a bunch of boys sitting around bonding over fantasies of hypermasculinity (with greatly exaggerated muscles, think robocop), and overly sexualized female characters (lots of boobs and cleavage), combined with a fairly high level of fantasizing about violence.

Maybe that's not in the game currently, but it's my impression of it, so I would assume the impression of others as well. Not ALL others, I'm not being a spokesperson for the human race here or anything, but it's a perception, all the same. If the hypermasculinity, overly sexualized women, and excessive violence has been removed from the game, that's not enough to erase the perception. You'd actually have to do a fairly aggressive public awareness campaign to SAY you've removed all the glorification of militaristic violence and whatnot.

If you want to understand some of the issues related to perceptions of violence and gender, Tough Guise is a great film. A 7 minute section of it is online here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3exzMPT4nGI - I'd recommend at least watching to the end of the section with the chart, and seeing if you recognize a connection between that chart and the gender divide in your consumers.

And here is where the ethics come in - should the goal be to raise the women in that bar chart to where the men are, if it sells more games?

[NewJeffCT]

103. They've been attempting to change the game

The new company - Wizards of the Coast - made a conscious effort when they released new rules in 2000 to use male & female pronouns when describing certain types of characters in the game, and the depictions of women in the artwork are a lot more "normal" than the busty blonde babe spilling out of her chainmail bikini (granted, how normal can an elf or an orc be?). Heck, they even got criticized for going too much in the opposite direction and making some of the women too physically unattractive. And, each character class in the game - wizard, cleric, fighter, paladin, etc - has both a male and a female "iconic" character associated with it.

Sorry for the delay in my response - I was traveling all day yesterday.

[noamnety]

105. What about the violence?

Did they make the same efforts to tone that down in 2000? The older wikipedia image I posted had two things going on - one was that macho-male rape fantasy (enough to turn me off the game for a lifetime, the negative associations are just too strong), and the other is the nonsexualized violence in general.

If you watch the video I posted, one of the points made in there was about how men are raised in this culture to embrace violence (with exceptions of course in both directions, but still it's an overwhelmingly male thing, as the charts in it show), while women don't so much fantasize about or commit violent acts.

So ... the options I see are: you shift the focus away from violence, you work to make women like violence more, or you accept that women aren't going to be your main audience. (That second option seems like an ethics problem, in terms of society in general.)

[NewJeffCT]

109. I realize that women will never be the main audience of D&D

at least not any time soon.

However, plenty of women like other forms of fantasy like Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Xena the Warrior Princess on TV, or the Harry Potter books, or various action movies with female leads. And, there is no shortage of violence in many of those similar forms of entertainment. Somebody below in the thread mentioned that in fantasy fanfiction, the percentage of women to men are reversed.

I don't think it's realistic to get women interested in the game that have no interest in fantasy literature and media. But, I don't think it's a big leap to get more women from similar genres and hobbies into Dungeons & Dragons if the hobby can improve its image with women in general.

[eyepaddle]

66. Now, hold on a second,

Since it's recreation, pretty much by defintion it's something everybody can live without--men and women. If their plan was to increase female participation at gunpoint or imposing an "RPG tax" on women only, THAT would be bad. As it stands now I think the viewpoint is more along the lines of "we think this is an activity that many women would enjoy, many more than actually show up; what can we do to reach/entice women who would like this to actually take part?"


Also, just on principle I can't understand how trying to acknowledge more than 50% of the population, and be more appealing to them, makes an organization bad.

[NewJeffCT]

80. Thanks for the support

you worded it much better than me.

[SouthoftheBorderPaul]

73. People all over the globe are trying to sell you stuff you don't need.

It's called business. Don't you think it's a little short-sighted and naive to resent a business for trying to increase sales?

Maybe you should trying relocating to a place where commerce plays a lesser role in peoples' lives, like Middle Earth.

[noamnety]

76. Mmmm, well, I'm not so much a capitalist at heart.

I mean I do what I can do get by, but that probably colors my views on the marketing industry and the whole corporate world. :)

I prefer products that fulfill a need, rather than trying to create a need because you have a product you want to sell.

[SouthoftheBorderPaul]

78. Well, I think if you're going to rail against corporations that

exploit women (or any demographic), you might start with an actual corporation. I hardly think the cottage industry of fantasy role playing is a deserving target of your scorn. NewJeffCT is helping to figure out what would draw more women to this past time. They're striving to be more inclusive. There is a rich history of sports and past times excluding women solely because of their gender. These guys are extending an invitation for women to partake and you're calling it exploitation!

[noamnety]

85. I began with an open ended question, not an assumption

and the answer I got was "sales"

If the first instinctive reaction was that they're looking for a way to squeeze money out of women, then my first instinctive reaction is that they're looking for a way to exploit us.

If his first answer had been something else, I'd have answered differently.

[Orrex]

42. "the long-term health of the hobby."

:wtf: How long-term do they have in mind? D&D's been around for over 30 years, and it's survived both Ed Greenwood and T$R's disastrous late-90's over-reaching into the genre of really super awful fantasy fiction.

Sounds to me that they're at least as interested in boosting their profits as they are in ensuring the hobby's longterm health. Of course, the two aren't mutually exclusive...

[NewJeffCT]

57. "The long-term health of the hobby"

was my words. The thread I referred to was "ways to support female gamers"
- so I assumed some of that was expanding sales to women, making the hobby more attractive to women, not turning off women that have some interest in D&D, etc.

And, I think most of TSR's efforts regarding 2E were pretty poor - getting rid of demons & devils, etc.

The game has survived, but has it prospered since the mid 80s? Will it be around in 10-20 years with video games being ever more popular?

[Orrex]

60. Ah--sorry. I misread it

IMO 2nd ed had a lot going for it, for rhe time. It was slick redesign of the product, with great improvements in organization and versatility. I agree about the removal of demons and devils, which was dumb as a marketing move and also dumb because it was pre-emptive pandering.

As to whether or not it's prospered since the mid 80's, I'd say that the early to mid 90's were its high point, at least prior to the WotC buyout. I haven't followed it much since then, so I couldn't speak to its current performance, other than to note that the number of pricey hardback gamebooks has greatly increased, so that must count for something.

And in 10 or 20 years? Who knows? I'm sure that Gygax et all were utterly stunned that it made it past 1975, so anything thereafter is gravy.

[JVS]

5. There is always one pasty faced white dude in each pack who has an equally pasty faced girlfriend

He is the "leader of the pack"

[Dukkha]

9. funny RPG story

I was working a gaming convention here where i did door check and walked the floor in costume. I was sitting by the entrance in a pokemon tournament all when this Asian guy came up with his gaming packets and badges asking if bottled water was available. I pointed him to the back of the hall. As he scurried off with gaming cards I hand my friend pointed out who he was since I've never seen the show. It was William Hung from American Idol. She Bang!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

12. I've had a negative attitude towards D&D ever since an ex

was an hour late to a date because he was involved in an "important" D&D session. He was in his 30s, as I was at the time, and he soon became an "ex."

Frankly, I have a life, and real people are more important than any role-playing game.

[noamnety]

16. When you put it that way

it kind of reminds me of the Real Dolls video (I think from the BBC?) Did you see that? :creepy:

[Orrex]

44. If he phrased it that way, then you were probably right in dumping him

But it's a little off the mark to frame it as "real people" versus "a role-playing game." In the games I've played, the person-to-person social aspect has been at least as important as the game itself. And certainly no weirder than hanging out on a political posting forum.

Of course, that's when the game is between actual people actually sitting together at a table and interacting. But if you sequester yourself nightly in the basement to play for hours against the computer, well, that might be a little over the top IMO.

[Orsino]

67. Yeah. Gamers are real people, too.

It's not just a hobby; it can also be a social activity, and should be, IMO.

[BarenakedLady]

14. I played D&D online

Does that count? Hehe. I used to date a guy who played old school D&D, that was back in H.S.

Actually all my relationships were with gamers (with a couple of exceptions).

I'm a gamer girl geek and I'm attracted to my male counterparts so my opinion may be skewed.

[Inchworm]

19. So.. I need to goto Gamespot to abscond with you?

hehe

Hi again! :hi:

Just your ordinary Hillbilly Stalker here :D

:hide:

[BarenakedLady]

20. You need to play WoW

I may let you flirt with my druid, she's a whore. :P

[Inchworm]

21. I knew a flirty druid once upon a time

different game, different world :*

:loveya:

EDIT: I forgot a whole word in subject and it WAS the subject :P

[yellowdogintexas]

38. I know several women who play WOW, including myself.

I love the PC games, but never played original D & D although I must confess the concept always intrigued me..I am kind of geeky in my own way

[Shine]

17. Sadly, the image you mention is the one I have, too.

But, I could be wrong.

They're also probably highly intelligent and creative.

[suzbaby]

18. If I am being honest?

Kinda.

I more relate them (in my mind) to the people I knew in high school who were REALLY into theater. World of Warcraft is pretty much the same.


I don't mean to offend. For the record, I have friends who play D&D and others who play WOW. It just never interested me.

[NewJeffCT]

27. honesty is preferred

thanks!

[carly denise pt deux]

22. I think of the stereotype as enlightened dudes who think outside the box

Carly

[Bjornsdotter]

23. I love D&D

...and other RPG's and have since about 1977.

I still play video and PC games....just love them all.

Cheers

[carly denise pt deux]

25. I had an addiction to the first Nintendo, but was hooked on video arcade games before that

I played Mario bros for HOURS,
played Tetris for HOURS, it would be 2 am and I was trying to sleep and could still see those blocks
I hated duck hunt, tho...wasn't any good at it unless I stood directly in front of the screen.

Remember the video games arcades of the early 80's? I was way into the games, I wish I had all those quarters back that I put into the machines.....

Moon Patrol
Asteroids
galaga
battlezone
missle command
tempest

[Bjornsdotter]

26. Omg Yes!

I still play Mario Bros....on Super Nintendo and Nintendo 64. Right now I'm playing Legend of Zelda, Twilight Princess.

My favorite arcade games....
Missile Command
Asteroids
Space Invaders
Centipede
Qix
Q*Bert
Galaga

As you are a big Mario fan, you may enjoy this video....makes me laugh every time I see it. It's so me.

http://www.glumbert.com/media/mariobros

Cheers :toast:

[carly denise pt deux]

32. HAHAHAHA I could just FEEL the frustration level!

I have said many an explective while learning how to play that game :)

[Qanisqineq]

24. I'm kind of envious

because I've always wanted to learn to play. I've never known anyone that has played. Dungeons... dragons... sounds right up my alley.

[NewJeffCT]

28. well, if you're in central CT

I'm going to be starting a new game in September!

Part of the problem with D&D is what I mentioned above in my original post... some gamers are not exactly advanced in their social skills. Back in the late 90s, we had one young woman in the group that did pretty well, and "the guys" were very nice to her. However, we added one guy temporarily and he practically stared & drooled at the young woman to the point where it made her uncomfortable, so we asked him to leave the group. And, she was not the type that would complain if it was the occasional glance or look or something. That is the image of gamers sometimes to women.

[Qanisqineq]

39. *sigh*

nope, no where near CT.

[libnnc]

29. They're smarter and more artistic than I am.

[undeterred]

30. I feel embarrassed for them.

OK, once I found out that a computer geek co-worker was into this stuff and that's how he met his wife. They had a "romantic" medieval wedding with costumes and everything. All their friends were other adults who were totally into it.

I guess its better than Scientology and no weirder than being a Unix programmer.

[VenusRising]

31. I'm married to an old school DM.

I have had the most fun on his campaigns. He expects everyone to participate and role play.

Other groups of guys that I've played with seem to view me as the token "chick". I never got any real play time because of the guy group think. My ideas were never really taken into consideration. One time with a different group my character's life was threatened because my 1st level ran away from a land shark.

We play Guild Wars now. It doesn't take a big group and you can play your character any way you like. Yes, it's online, but the people that we like to game with play, so it's fun.

If you can find it oneline, check out Knights of the Dinner Table. It's a great comic book that has 4 guys and 1 girl. It's hilarious.

:hi:

[NewJeffCT]

33. I've read some KoDT

It's really good, and sometimes scarily accurate. The folks at Kenzer are really good - they also did "Hackmaster" for old school D&Ders and "Kingdoms of Kalamar" for D&D.

[Orsino]

75. KoDT rocks.

It's about the only comic I'll buy monthly.

[BreweryYardRat]

106. Excuse me, geek moment here.

What sort of stupid asshole threatens to off your 1st-level character for running from a friggin' bullete/landshark? That'll chew up an entire party of 1st-levelers without breaking a sweat.

[Ellen Forradalom]

35. D&D doesn't attract me.

I prefer to spend my time knitting and reading dirty French novels.

[distantearlywarning]

36. I'm a gamer girl

Married to a gamer guy. Dated gamer guys before I met my husband. In fact, I actively sought them out because I knew they would accept me for who I was. We also do SCA pretty actively, which I'm sure makes us even more uber-geeky to some people.

But I don't think anyone would peg us as gamers if they just met us out in the "real world" at the supermarket or anything. We're pretty normal looking and we have real lives and we don't live in any parent's basement. We just have some weird hobbies on the weekend. But so what? At least we're happy.

But I'll tell you something that ticks me off though: gaming with guys that have girlfriends or wives who look down on their hobby and actively interfere with them trying to do their thing. We played with one guy whose wife would call him every 5 minutes and harrass him. Then she tried to join our group and was really bad at it and got mad at all of us because she was miserable. He eventually just quit playing to avoid the hassle with her. Yeah, I'm sure they're still in a very happy marriage now. :eyes:

Look, if you can't deal with a gamer husband, why did you marry him? That goes for any hobby, and I guess both genders too. You know what you're getting long before you marry anyone and what their interests are - why do people try to change one another like that? If you hate D&D and think only dorks play it, why are you dating a D&D playing dork and trying to change him/her? Go find some "normal" person who will hang out in the "real world" with you - it will make everyone happier. Just my opinion. BTW, I had several boyfriends who tried to do that to me, make me into something I wasn't, and it only made both of us miserable. It's not worth it.

[TheMightyFavog]

37. At one time, my d20 Modern group at college had more women than men.

I have funny stories, like the time the female "urban samurai" charachter scored a crit when she delivered a palm strike to the groin of one of her fellow PCs. One of the funniest gaming moments I've ever had.

Come to think of it, the gaming group at UWSP was about 45% female, and the last semester I was there three of the five officers were women.

I'm looking forward to playing d20 Modern again, but it will all depend on where I find work. If I can find a good gaming group, I can get a campaign going.

[Norwood]

40. I'm surprised no one posted this yet

http://youtube.com/watch?v=zng5kRle4FA

[Left Is Write]

43. I don't have any opinion one way or the other.

My husband was a D&D player in his teens.

[Katherine Brengle]

45. I don't know much about it, but

my husband plays that Warhammer tabletop army game. It strikes me as an odd way to spend time, but he could say the same of my knitting and furniture refinishing, so...

I do think the general perception is as you described, but I've met a fair number of male and female gamers of all sorts, and few fit that description. Most are just like everyone else, just different ;).

[scarlet_owl]

46. My husband is a role player.

It doesn't bother me at all, though it isn't my cup of tea. It's actually pretty nice to have him out of the house one night a week.

[NewJeffCT]

56. One of my wife's conditions

was that the game was at our house... mostly in case there is any trouble with our daughter, so I can help out for a bit.

[BlueIris]

47. Actually, that's one of the things that will rule out someone as a potential date for me.

Dated a D&D player once (when I was 17); wouldn't do it again. It was a hobby that was particularly involving for him, bordering on obsessive, which I found escapist in an unhealthy way (and he was a freaking Caltech student, if you can believe that). Could those who moderate their involvement with that kind of thing be decent people for me to socialize with? Sure. But it's unlikely that I would think about dating one of them again, whether his hobby was "under control" or not. It's just not something I'm interested in, in a big way, it strikes me as juvenile and a little creepy, especially when someone is over the age of 18. I think it's kinda the rough equivalent of an 18 year old playing Candy Land--for like, days at a time. Could I maintain a friendship with someone who did that? Probably. Whether I'd want to is a whole other question. Could I even contemplate being in a relationship that aspired to be a mature and fulfilling one? No. Because I would sincerely doubt that it would ever be.

[momophile]

48. I think there are different levels to role-playing

and that D&D is rather harmless, even if it is a little geeky. When I was single, I would have dated a D&Der (for lack of a better term) only if he played every now and then and not on a regular schedule.

Now as for the other role-playing types, regularly attending Rocky Horror is okay if you are 17 - 21. Star Trek conventions in uniforms are not okay. And SCA is creepy to me.

Totally my opinion, though, and from my personal experience.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

49. I never got that game...

Too many rules for pretend, and not enough for organized play...for my taste anyway.

[DarkTirade]

50. Oddly enough, people with poor social skills make the worst gamers... :)

[WildEyedLiberal]

51. I really like fantasy and RPGs

I play computer RPGs, though, not desktop ones.

I obviously enjoy sharing interests with people, including guys who like fantasy and D&D. But as it relates to your question - how to women perceive guys who are into it - for me, even as someone who shares that interest, a lot of guys who are big fantasy geeks come off WAY too desperate around women. I'm not trying to brag or anything, but I'm a fairly attractive young woman - I definitely don't fit the "female geek" stereotype of blah, mousy hair, big glasses, baggy clothes, etc. So it's doubly frustrating to really enjoy "nerdy" stuff like fantasy because it's really obvious that all the "nerdy" guys I interact with immediately are like "OMG what is this HOT CHICK doing HERE???" and immediately proceed to awkwardly hit on me.

Dudes, if I wanna date you, I'll drop some hints. Just because I like fantasy and D&D doesn't mean I'm up for dating every dude who's into them. I'd like to just be able to enjoy the hobby without being drooled on.

[radfringe]

52. Azulasis the Human-Elf huntress

says she likes to hunt down 30+year old cellar-dwellers... lol

I like to play D&D, I'm not that experienced with it, prefer to play with group of friends as opposed to cyber-groups, but finding a group of friends to play is a problem.

my experience with cyber-groups is the focus on buying/selling of characters, turns me off and takes the fun out of it. I tried a few of the web D&D places - wasn't impressed with them, frankly I found them boring. there seems to be more boasting, drinking and brawling than adventuring - just not my cup of coffee or mead

[REP]

53. Well...

I'm marrried to a guy who L O V E S D&D and D&D-type games (he hacked Moria to kill the B with a Very Hard Biscuit for the fun of it). He's tried to make me interested in them ... but my boring hobby is arguing politics on the interwebs.

In college, when he played the old-style game, he lived on Mountain Dew. Now he's a software engineer. Some stereotypes are true!

[Love Bug]

54. Well, I used to play with a group of friends who met every week

But they lost me when they changed the damn rules. I was just getting 2nd Edition down when 3rd Edition came out! Feh.

[Maine-ah]

55. I used to play D&D

my husband still does. :hi:

[MissMillie]

59. I used to play, years ago

I think it can be really fun.

[Haole Girl]

61. Everybody is entitled to their hobbies

That is my take on it.

Are you already back from China? Any pics you will share? :hi:

[NewJeffCT]

62. Nope and nope

I'm getting ready to take the train to the airport tomorrow, then begin the long flight home. The weather has been brutally humid here, so I wind down at night by browsing the internets to keep up with the news back home.

No pics - my wife & daughter are staying a few extra days, so will be keeping the camera. We also forgot the USB cable to d/l pics to my wife's laptop.

[Haole Girl]

63. Hope you have an uneventful trip back

:hi:

[NewJeffCT]

64. I hope so, too

I'm taking the high speed train all by myself, and then getting a ride from the train station to the airport... but, I told my wife not to worry, if I get lost, I'm sure I'll have plenty of young women willing to help me.

[Haole Girl]

65. lol!

:hi:

[XemaSab]

68. If you're over 30 and playing D&D there is something VERY wrong with you socially.

I think most young women are frankly uninterested.

There's also a bit of a boys' club mentality about it. Do you invite women to game? What do they say? How are they treated by the group? :shrug:

[UncleSepp]

90. What's different about playing DnD or playing cards?

Or any other social game? I'm honestly curious about the difference in perception.

[ikojo]

69. I used to play D&D when I was in college

Once I left college I could not find anyone to play with. I am a wee bit older than 30 and don't know how welcomed I would be.

[Lilith Velkor]

70. Stephen Colbert is always making D&D references, and he's way sexy

I'm a geekish woman, so I'm biased, of course.

[huskerlaw]

71. Honestly...

that's the first image that comes to mind. Though I don't really know anyone who's into D&D, so my mental picture isn't based on any sort of reality.

[NewJeffCT]

81. That's fine - I appreciate the honesty

that's part of the game's problem

[Withywindle]

72. Goblin fodder, back when I used to DM a lot. :)

In high school and college, they were among my best friends. In high school, I was usually the only girl (which I loved - no chatter about fashion and high school gossipy relationship shit to get bored by); in college the groups I played with were about half and half, and that was even more fun, because girls who game tend to be very funny and inventive, I found.

But as I get older, I find I like to hang where the women are in the SF/F scene-- and that, my friends, is fanfiction. I realize I enjoy that more than gaming, because my favorite thing about gaming was always the storytelling/imaginative aspect. I'm pretty right-brained, I always thought of the die rolls and attack charts and scores and things as a necessary bit of tedium to get to the "good stuff". Now I just like to cut out all that and just write stories (with sex in 'em). I by no means am trying to speak for Women As a Whole, because no one can do that and that's ridiculous, and more math/tech-oriented women dig gaming in a big way. But when I notice that the fanfiction scene is about 90% female/10% male, I do have to think there's something worth noting here about a different way SF geek men and SF geek women might interact with world-building and plotlines and characters. Just sayin'.

Edited to add: Online, on sites like Livejournal, there is a HUGE RPG scene that's overwhelmingly female. But the games aren't rule-based commercial games; they're just people interactively playing characters in collectively-written storylines. No dice involved, just writing and a form of theater.

[NewJeffCT]

82. thanks for the post

I wonder how the RPG crowd and the fanfiction crowd can get together to enhance both interests?

[Withywindle]

97. Well, I'm not sure that they need to.

My relationship with my SO has a lot of understandings along the lines of "I don't make fun of you geeking out on your online submarine warfare RPG if you don't make fun of the insane amounts of research I do for my Lord of the Rings porn." (Of course we violate this all the time, but it's all in fun. We are not insecure in our nerdiness. :D) Seems to me that the most important thing different flavors and genders of geeks can do is not look down on each other, whatever the way of participation.

As for making the tabletop gaming scene more welcoming to women? Don't know, but I do remember that when the White Wolf games first came out in the early 90s, women went for those in a big way, because the emphasis was on character development and storytelling in a way it hadn't been before, so much. The language of the books was also inclusive -- use of both male and female pronouns as generics, for example, lots of examples of characters of all genders from all walks of life (or unlife, as the case may be). There was cheesecake, sure--but there was beefcake too, and gay characters, and emphasis on collaborative storytelling over competition. All of this sounds dreadfully stereotypical about What Women Like, and I usually hate that shit, but the thing is, it worked.

[WildEyedLiberal]

91. Agreed

As a woman I've noticed that a lot of women who are into RPGs focus more on character development and the actual role playing, and the labyrinthine rules of D&D can be confusing as hell and offputting to people who just want to create a fantasy character and act out the role. They don't want to worry about calculating the results of when their paladin with a base attack bonus of 7 rolls a 11 to hit an orc captain with an armor class of 15 with his +3 Holy Avenger with 1d12 on-hit lightning damage.

Fuck, I confused myself just writing all that crap. This is why I like computer RPGs - they do all the dumb hit die calculations instantly, and I just get to immerse myself in the role playing and gameplay.

[NewJeffCT]

104. To be honest

While I think the number of women into the "roleplaying" aspect of the game is greater, percentagewise, the the number of men... there are plenty of female gamers that just love to go out & kick ass in game and kill lots of bad guys. The one woman I gamed with extensively over the years was a good role-player, but she also could be a vicious killing machine in game.

[BreweryYardRat]

107. Her post is why male fanfic writers aren't always fond of female fanfic writers.

Because while we few guys try to write adventure, or humor, or intelligently handled romance/angst, lots of women (and very few men) are sitting out there writing the equivalent of a Harlequin novel or something out of Hustler...with our favorite characters!!!

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not being bigoted. I've seen plenty of female fanficcers do an EXCELLENT job on adventure or humor or intelligently handled romance/angst fics, but the pornfic is always lurking out there. En masse. Rather than "Hey, let's gracefully gloss over the extreme physical details of consenting teenagers/adults, and focus on how the newly developed sexual relationship affects them emotionally," it's poorly-written purple prose (heaving bosoms, throbbing manhoods, quivering orifices...that sort of shit) out the wazoo.

Yeesh. I'm just glad I write other stuff besides fanfic.

[WinkyDink]

77. My view of D&D is a dim one. But then, I don't like fantasy lit, either.

[dropkickpa]

84. Hell, I used to be a LARPer.

I just can't afford it anymore, and don't have the time for table-gaming, being a single mom.

[booley]

86. Not a women but...

Given that in LARPing (Table top's pesky lttle brother) women equal or even outnumber the male players, i'd say women aren't as a group opposed ot gaming.

[pitohui]

87. my view of it is even worse than that

the leader of the d&d group my husband was involved in back in the day was a psychotic eventually convicted of attempted murder

another woman in the group, while only jailed for embezzling, i'm pretty sure that she successfully murdered another woman

so my impression was of people who not only played with having a fantasy life -- they truly were on the borderline and did not understand the difference between real life and fantasy

however this was the early 80s, when gaming was not so widely accepted and i think only true oddballs would have been involved in it to begin with

nevertheless, it's something i take care to avoid, esp. a group w. lots of young people who don't seem equipped for jobs or school, just for living in a daydream and running various rip-offs to pay for their fantasy

[Beetwasher]

88. 3 of 6 of The Players Of The Last Campaign I Was In Were Women

And attractive one's at that!

[NewJeffCT]

93. well, the game is changing a bit, I think

back in the 80s, it was probably 95% male, or more. Some of those gamers from back then were able to get married or find girlfriends and get them into gaming.

[southerncrone]

89. Total Freakin' Losers!

Your assessment pretty well hits the nail on the head.

[THUNDER HANDS]

92. my ex girlfriend used to play it

and frankly, i found that weird.

[barb162]

94. My view is that they're teenage boys. n/t

[Book Lover]

95. I've lived this discussion since 8th grade, back in the early 80's

And I have come to the conclusion that the gaming community should give up on active outreach to us. It always seems paternalistic when I encounter it - like, remember the 2nd round of AD&D computer games? When you made your character, if you chose "female" you got a little blurb about how a woman could do anything a man could do - I don't recall the exact language right now but it really made me roll my eyes. I like roleplaying because I like it - the fact that I was treated poorly by many, many players because I am a woman made me more determined to find a good group of players and enjoy myself.

Actually, now that I think about it, there *is* something the industry could (but will never) do: in the visuals (in ads, the books, etc), put some decent armor on female fighters and decent robes on the female mages. And showing a few females with some curves, instead of anorexic anime-inspired bodies, wouldn't hurt either.

on edit: Also, and I realize that this won't fly with the WotC people, broaden the systems a bit. I play Rolemaster for fantasy and blends of Aftermath/James Bond (for the gun rules) for modern games now and love it. I simply am not interested in spending time learning 3.x because it'll all just get changed around again later on. Rolemaster, OTOH, has stayed simple and the same for the last 20-odd years.

[siouxsiecreamcheese]

96. Personally,

I think it's kinda cute.. I dated a couple guys that played it and I had no problem with it.. Only when it took time away from our relationship did I see a problem. I think basically it's just guys wanting to have fun and be kids again. I wished one of them would have taught me how to play it though.

[Jamastiene]

98. I play Runescape.

37 year old female. I love D&D type role playing games. Lots of different people play them. It's just a stereotype that a certain "type" of person plays those types of games, if you ask me.

[NewJeffCT]

102. the stereotype is slowing changing

but, the game is still a majority of the pasty-faced white guys who often have poor social skills.

[Solon]

99. I think that perception(pasty white boys) is changing, with Steven Colbert, Vin Deisel and Robin...

Williams being gamers who make no secret about it.

[NewJeffCT]

101. I think it's been changing, too

I think there are a few other celebrities as well. I know I've heard D&D references on The Daily Show in the past, too, so I know they must share some writers. And, in the last episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, some of the group are sitting around playing D&D.

But, I think i said in another post in this thread that in the 80s, the hobby was 95% male - if not more. Some of those guys managed to find girlfriends and wives and some of them got into gaming. And, with the popularity of Harry Potter and fantasy action TV shows with female leads (Buffy, Charmed, Xena, etc) - it has led to an increase as well.

[twenty4blackbirds]

100. Arithmatically literate...very admirable

Combine that with a generous sense of humour, male, socially adept - very sexy.

[yurbud]

108. I hung out with D & D guys in high school, and all the stereotypes are true

[GreenPartyVoter]

110. I enjoy it, but haven't done it in quite some time. However, my little boys are

starting to get into it so we occasionally have family dungeon sessions.