All you jackasses with Commie-chic stuff...learn from Cameron Diaz

[northzax]

turns out, in some places, it's just not funny, or ironic. Yes, I am talking to you, in the Che shirt.

[EstimatedProphet]

1. ?

I'm missing some context here...

[northzax]

5. she's at maachu picchu

her bag, if you look closely, has a maoist red star and slogan on it. for some reason (cough, cough, abimael guzman) this is upsetting in peru...

[Hugin]

7. It could also be a Macy's Star...

There are other brands with Red Stars around.

[mzteris]

8. no - my son has one just like it.

His dad bought it when we were in China. He thought it make a cool bookbag for our son to carry his "Chinese homework" in when he went to Chinese class.

Only one problem. My son explained to dad that went to a TAIWANESE Chinese language school and that he didn't think the bag would go over very well there.

Now he carries his dance clothes in it.

[northzax]

9. Red Star on a green background?

with the slogan "Serve the People" on it?

no, that's pretty much Mao.

and if you aren't familiar with the context, it was used as a symbol by Sendero Luminoso, a maoist guerilla group in the 80s and early 90s. And I use the word 'guerilla' very loosely, 'terrorist' is much more apt, at least in the late 80s and early 90s. This is the rough equivalent of carrying a confederate battle flag bag to the Civil Rights Museum in Memphis.

[grace0418]

33. Actually, there was a news story about it. Cameron apologized because it has

a communist slogan on it. She bought it in China but didn't know what it said. She wasn't aware that it would be offensive.

Kinda like engrish.com in reverse.

[Squatch]

2. She's a spy!!!1! OMG this is Hugh!

Notice the flirtatious banter, the innocent look, the batting of the eyelashes.

All to obscure the 300mm lens taking pictures for God knows what nefarious purpose.

[Hugin]

4. I think Cameron is blushing too...

:)

[northzax]

13. So you don't get the cultural reference?

No idea why something in this picture is offensive, given the realities of time and space?

[Squatch]

18. Nope. No idea. But, then again, I don't get offended at chocolate Jesii

either, although many shrill Catholics did.

[northzax]

21. google 'shining path'

or 'sendero luminoso'

wearing maoist grafitti in Peru is the rough equivalent of wearing the confederate battle flag at Gettysburg in 1875, or a white hood in Selma in 1970, or a SS hat instead of a yarmluke at a bat mitzvah. a few people might find it sympathetic, but most people will wonder why you are celebrating death and terror.

this isn't political corectness run amok, like being offended by a chocolate Jesus, this is a very recent, very violent symbol.

[Squatch]

26. "...but most people will wonder..."

and that's a bad thing, why?

Without giving credit to Diaz's obvious faux pas, it seems to me that in a free and open society, one should be able to wear symbols that others MAY or MAY NOT find offensive.

If I see a Confed flag at Gettysburg, I will indeed wonder why that person is celebrating "death and terror". Hell, I might even discuss it with my friends over a couple cold ones. As long as the most dire consequence of that action was my "wondering", what's the big deal?

[mzteris]

3. Isn't that a Chinese "Red Army" bag

she's carrying?

[northzax]

6. maoist, more than army

has some nice slogan on it as well...

[nosillies]

10. Somebody already called her on it

http://www.postchronicle.com/news/entertainment/tittletattle/article_21288650.shtml

At least she actually bought it China and it's not being mass-produced for US department stores. Then again, it probably is.

[northzax]

11. Many people have

She apologized. I wanted to see how many DUers get the reference, though, especially since i am lambasted on chavez threads for not knowing the history of the left in Latin America (this has nothing to do with venezuela, just what inspired it)

and as a reminder to those that wear symbols to understand what they mean in context...

[nosillies]

15. I remember when I was 11 and I asked my mom if I could get some marijuana leaf earrings

I didn't know what they were, I just thought they were a cool color.

I learned my lesson about symbol-wearing that day.

[deepthought42]

31. When I was a kid I wanted a sticker from a vending machine...

It was a rabbit w/a bow tie... When I showed my mother she told me that was the Playboy bunny! :blush: I promptly threw it away... :rofl:

[meegbear]

12. Don't come to the People's Republic of Cambridge MA ...

or the People's Republic bar either (they have "the bomb").

[northzax]

14. Been there, and to the old KGB bar in the Village

Kitsch is fairly amusing. Bet it wouldn't go over well in prague, though.

ever wonder why soviet and maoist kitsch is considered cute and hip, but third reich kitsch is offensive and racist? More americans died fighting communism than nazism, after all, and many more civilains died under stalin or mao than hitler. You wouldn't go to a bar called the 'fourth reich', right? Or 'gestapo'?

why can we laugh at one, but the other is sacredly offensive? If she was carrying a kitschy bag with a swastika, what would the response have been, you think?

[meegbear]

16. True true ...

Bad fashion choice on her part.

[mitchum]

20. Actually, in the 70s there was a Nazi Chic trend in rockandroll culture...

occuring at the same time there was a Nazi Chic trend in "softcore porn" movies

[northzax]

22. yeah, and there was the whole "night porter" scene

what did they call it "naziploitation"? but at some point we came to the general realization, as a culture, that that shit just wasn't funny.

[mitchum]

25. Yes, "The Night Porter", "LLsa, She Wolf of the SS", "Love Camp 7"...

"Stalag 69"...
And then there were all of the bands who wore nazi regalia or referenced the third reich in their lyrics.
I succumbed to it also. I ran around for a year or so as a longhaired rockandroller in an authentic SS officer's cap and greatcoat. I threw that garbage away when I was 16. I didn't embrace the ideology; I was just stupid.

[JVS]

23. WTF? Where are your numbers from. Last time I checked WWII had more casualties than Nam and Korea

[northzax]

27. well, on a technicality

i did say fighting against the Nazis, so only casualties in Europe and the Atlantic theatre really count, and that's about 100,000, give or take. (you could even argue that Italy was fascism, but not directly Nazism in many circumstances) when you think about it, the US took more fatalities on Iwo Jima than on D-day.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

17. I hereby offer you the video of "Go West" by the Pet Shop Boys.

Let's frown at them! (Not.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39KZ2afBtLU

[mitchum]

19. WWCW?...

What Would Che Wear?

[otherlander]

45. A hat, usually.

[JVS]

24. So are you saying that this is not a good shirt?

[Downtown Hound]

28. The Peruvian Government killed more people than the Shining Path did

during the civil war. And no, I'm not defending the Shining Path. They were brutal and often resorted to terrible tactics. But their government, which was fully backed and supported by us, was no better. Peru needs to face up to its history with a more balanced eye if they're going to move past what occurred, and stories like this just makes it look like they're taking the American way out and choosing a reactionary, narrow minded approach. Always creating a bogeyman to cover up for the fact that 80% of its population lives in poverty, which is why they had such a brutal civil war to begin with. To me, this is no different than an American who gets upset at a Muslim who wears traditional Muslim clothing. Islam can mean many different things, and sporting the red star can mean things other than supporting Shining Path atrocities. People that can't distinguish such things are not worth getting all worked up over.

The Peruvians should forget about Cameron Diaz's bag. What are they going to do? Throw her in prison for twenty years like they did Lori Berenson? There are people rotting in Peruvian prisons right now for doing less than what Cameron has done in terms of "supporting terrorism," compliments of the U.S. backed Fujimori regime. Yet, some people will get all upset over a bag. It makes one wonder.

[Tyler Durden]

29. It does seem rather petty, doesn't it?

"Serve the People"...gee, what a terrible, immoral sentiment.

[northzax]

30. well, when the slogan is used to justify killing entire villages

that don't support your 'movement' i guess people might be upset by seeing it.

[Tyler Durden]

36. I doubt they were saying "Serve the people" as they killed.

Maybe "EAT FLAMING DEATH, FASCIST PIGS" or something similar.

[northzax]

32. i use it as an example

of learning something about a culture before you go, to not offend people without meaning to, at least; and to know the power of symbols.

and to compare it to Lori Berenson is simply absurd. Berenson was either the most naive person on the planet, or in active collaboration with terrorists (you can't really call MRTA anything but a terrorist group) She ran their safe house in Lima, got one of them into the Congress building, provided them with money, shelter and supplies. Oh, and she is married to a convicted terrorist who is an aknowledged member. Even Amnesty has given up on that case. Diaz was a fool to not pay attention to what she was doing, at least she was smart enough to apologize. Berenson was actively aiding and abettting a terrorist group (and yes, MRTA was nothing better than a terror group, true, it didn't target civilians, like Sendero often did, but it was not above killing dissident members from its own ranks, either.)

[Downtown Hound]

34. No Lori Berenson did not run their safe house in Lima

She lived in what became their safe house three months prior to her arrest with several people later identified as MRTA members. The landlord of the building has stated that most of the "terrorists" moved in after she was gone. Peru itself has recanted any claims that Berenson provided the MRTA with any money, so your example there is pretty lame. Pretty much the only evidence against her is that she knew some MRTA members, and that isn't a crime. When Berenson was first arrested, several journalist friends of hers were called in for questioning by the Dincote, Peru's antiterrorism police because she had their phone number on her pager. The point is that Berenson knew many people in Peru, not just MRTA. Lori is a leftist, and she did travel to Peru to write for some left wing magazines. It doesn't surprise me that she would get to know MRTA. If you'd actually bother to dig a little bit behind the headlines of the case I think you'd be surprised at how flimsy the case against her really is. There's been a ton of misinformation about her in our corporate media, and all of it you pretty much parroted in your post. But my post wasn't really about Lori Berenson. It was about how societies use the fear of some great bogey man to avid looking at the real issues. We Americans do it with Islamic terrorism, and the Peruvians do it with the Shining Path. Thousands of people unjustly imprisoned, disappeared, tortured, and killed. Different enemies, same result.

So when you hype up the anti-commie shit that you do in your OP, you're contributing to the hysteria that sometimes result in people losing their rights, like Lori Berenson and countless other Peruvians languishing in jail because they wore the wrong T-shirt or said the wrong thing. Or you're simply playing right in the hands of all the right wing wackos by repeating their talking points for them. Either way, your OP is incredibly lame. Communism has millions of victims on its hands, but guess what, so does Capitalism. People who get freaked out by a shirt espousing one view or the other are simply contributing to the cycle of avoiding real issues.

[northzax]

38. well, she rented the house, right?

and was arrested what, like an hour before the raid on the house that lead to the deaths of several MRTA members and a member of the raiding party. repeat: she was renting the house. This is what she was convicted of. And when the noted right wing Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch concede you have been fairly convicted of a crime, it's tough to argue that you haven't been. Sorry, I know she's a great cause celebre, but that fight is over (and I wasn't using big media, I was using, well, Amnesty International to get my information. capitalist tools, I guess.

like it or not, symbols have power. you wouldn't wear a swastika into a synagogue, right? or would you, because if you didn't, it would be 'avoiding the real issues?" how about a klan shirt on MLK's birthday? since, you know, symbols don't really offend people. what about going to Santiago in an "I love Pinochet" shirt? tasteless? (see, works against the right and the left) how about a Reagan t-shirt in Managua? an Islamic Jihad shirt at the site of the WTC? "Torquemanda was right" bag in Tel Aviv? just as stupid. If Diaz had known what she was saying by carrying that bag in that place and time, I would have a different take on it (but since she apologized profusely, she's either a liar or she didn't know) you can wear and carry anything you want to, just understand the message you are communicating in that place and time. When you visit someone else's country, try to be a little respectful of the mores of THAT country, all I ask. a red star bag wouldn't raise an eyebrow in Nicaragua or El Salvador, or even probably Chile or Argentina, certainly not in Venezuela, no one would care. but in Peru, you are simply not paying any attention to history, which is all to typical of Americans. Personally, I like it when people wear Maoist stuff, shows me that they are not worth dealing with. you can make an arguement, if you wish, that Lenin symbols, or Marx symbols, or even Che, has some political value. Mao is up there with Stalin for sheer brutality and uncaring for people in the face of death. I cannot get behind a political system in which people, millions of people, are completely expendable to the State for political purposes. If I could, I would be a republican. (hey, if you are going to callously disregard the suffering and deaths of people, might as well make some money, right?)

[Downtown Hound]

42. Your facts are sorely lacking

She had already moved out of the house and had been living across town for more than three months prior to her arrest. That would be like saying you're responsible for marijuana plants that were found in a place where you used to live, even though many other new people had since established residence there.

Berenson was arrested on a bus after having just returned from interviewing a member of Peru's congress with a woman who turned out to be Nancy Gilvonio, the wife of MRTA leader Nestor Cerpa. Gilvonio had been hired by Berenson as a photographer. Cerpa testified at Berenson's second trial and stated that his wife's true identity was kept secret form Berenson, and that Berenson never participated in any of the MRTA's activities or knew of their plans. The congressman that she interviewed testified that she asked legitimate journalistic questions. Nevertheless, Peru used the mere circumstances of events to imply that she was joining the MRTA in a planned attack on Congress, an attack that they have never offered a shred of proof that it was in fact being planned, much less that Berenson had anything to do with it. It's important to remember that they weren't after Berenson when they arrested her. They were after Gilvonio. Berenson just happened to be with her at the time, and her left wing viewpoints and her defiance probably didn't go over very well with Dincote officials. Of all the MRTA members arrested in the La Molina house, most of them testified that they had no idea who Berenson even was and that they didn't know her. None of them testified that she was a member, collaborater, or financier of the MRTA, except one, Pacifico Castrellon, and he did so to receive a reduced sentence.

And if you're using Amnesty to get your information, Amnesty has always been pretty much MIA when it comes to Lori Berenson. They didn't even get involved in her case until after she'd been in prison for a few years. And Amnesty basically gave up on her after she had her second trial, which many international legal observers witnessed and stated that there were gross violations of due process, not to mention a video of Peru's now imprisoned spymaster Vladmir Montesinos rigging it so that she would receive a 20 year sentence. None of this mattered to Amnesty. They pretty much said, "Well she had her day in court. It's done." Amnesty International does many great things but they're not above making bad decisions. And they made a bad decision by abandoning Lori Berenson, and thousands of other Peruvians currently in prison in Peru for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

As for all the victims of certain communist societies, I don't ignore them. Nor do I ignore the millions of victims of Capitalism done in the name of fighting communism. At some point you have to move beyond the fear mongering and start to ask questions about why these things happen and what we can do to prevent them. Starting a crusade against Che shirts and bags with red stars on them is not the way to do this.

[Tyler Durden]

37. COMMIE, COMMIE, COMMIE, COMMIE, COMMIE, COMMIE, COMMIE,

COMMIE, COMMIE, COMMIE, COMMIE, COMMIE, COMMIE, COMMIE, COMMIE, COMMIE, COMMIE,
COMMIE, COMMIE, COMMIE, COMMIE, COMMIE, COMMIE, COMMIE, COMMIE, COMMIE, COMMIE,
COMMIE, COMMIE, COMMIE, COMMIE, COMMIE, COMMIE, COMMIE, COMMIE, COMMIE, COMMIE,


Time for the world to grow up just a notch.

[northzax]

39. NAZI NAZI NAZI NAZI

god, why can't the world just grow up a notch, and look at all the good Hitler did?


of course you understand this has nothing to do with 'commie' per se, it has to do with carrying the symbol of a revolutionary group that helped tear a country apart for a decade only 15 years ago, right? Sendero Luminoso had about as much to do with communism as Pat Robertson has to do with Christianity. it was a nice fig leaf, and maybe even a goal at one point, but then it just went off the rails.

[Tyler Durden]

41. If this has nothing to do with the "C" word, why do you counter with the "NAZI card"?

And then add the phrase "...and look at all the good Hitler did?" That negates your argument, as it was NEVER a part of mine: I NEVER stated that the so-called "Shining Path" were anything but hoodlums masquerading behind a specious philosophy.

You are mainly the one who wished to equate a good sentiment with a gang of murderers, little better than the Medellin Cartel, merely because a dubious political group said it, and not likely the first time it was said.

What you keep insinuating is that if one choses to say "Serve the People" then they are indicating support for a GANG who didn't even have the support of REAL Maoists in the PRC.

I am saying that when someone want to throw a HISSYFIT over a PURSE, then it is time they re-examined their maturity. "Serve The People" by the way, is what our PUBLIC SERVANTS are supposed to do.

[northzax]

44. when the gang adopts a symbol

and uses it as a banner to wage war behind, that symbol becomes something powerful in that area. Like it or not, the Maoist Red Star, in Peru, is associated with Sendero. Just as the swastika, one of the oldest symbols in the world, is now associated, permanently, with the Nazis, and the Confederate Battle Flag is associated with the Klan.

if you want to wear the Maoist star, go ahead, just understand that in some places, it may mean something different to different people. and as a tourist, you should take the time to learn what symbols you are wearing mean in that place, don't you think?

[Tyler Durden]

46. I know what these symbols MEAN.

However, you are condemning the phrase as a MAOIST saying. There are hundreds of sayings that carry across the old Soviet Union, the United States, and China.

By the way, the Red Star, while a symbol of communism, is NOT a "Maoist" star.

[Taverner]

40. And Peru got rid of both

Mention Fujimori and you'll get just as many stern looks

Peruvians were sick of all the death from both sides

[Downtown Hound]

43. True, they did

But they're continuing on with the same failed policies that led to the war in the first place. Many of Fujimori's allies are still in the government and still control the judiciary, and word has it that the Shining Path is making a comeback. They will probably never get to the level they were at during the height of the war, but they are still around, and still growing. Why is this? Because the same failed economic polices that led to the war are still going on today. Hell, Peru's current president was the same president at the time that everything went to hell. Not a good sign.

My point is that to really learn from the past, you have to look at it from an angle of why did these things happen and what can be done to prevent them. Going rabidly anti-commie, anti-American, anti-capitalist, whatever, does no good. Communism has good and bad things about it. Capitalism has good and bad things about it. Whenever we develop knee jerk reaction to things such as displaying a certain shirt that can mean many things but also be associated with certain bad things, nothing is solved, and it only adds to the hysteria.

[Tyler Durden]

47. Very well put. n/t

[Divameow77]

35. I wanna know who the hottie

is in the picture with her :-)