Bringing the Jews home...TO DIE!

[scottcsmith]

I'm channel surfing this afternoon and there's an infomercial playing on TBN (Trinity Broadcasting Network) about a group dedicated to bringing all Jews home to Israel. Sounds good, right? This group collects donations and apparently helps Jews to return home to Israel.

As I'm watching the infomercial, I realize the group is of the Christian Evangelical movement in Christianity, and then it hit me, why this group existed, and it made my Jewish blood run cold:

They want us home so Israel can be destroyed to bring about the reign of the Anti-Christ and the Second Coming of Jesus Christ! They want us there to fulfill New Testament prophesy! Yikes! Apparently Jesus cannot return until Jews are back in their homeland. And then, it would appear, the anti-Christ would sort of kill us all.

I will NOT be opening my wallet to that group.

[aquart]

1. Yup.

They just keep forgetting Jesus is a nice Jewish boy and isn't likely to worship himself. Therefore, they will have to exterminate him right along with the rest of us.

Kind of a Catch 22.

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bolo Boffin]

2. This is true.

However, not expecting New Testament prophesy to come true, I find it a little amusing that Jewish people are moving to Israel on the Christian dime. Who's to argue with a free plane ticket?

[Rabrrrrrr]

3. Yeah, I say go ahead and move

if the idiots want to pay for it, let 'em pay for it.

Ain't no way they're gonna be able to engineer the second coming. And I have faith that their interpretation of Revelation is 100% wrong, anyway.

So yeah, so long as they're willing to pay, PLEASE get people to take them up on the offer. Every flight and move to Israel they pay for is less money for the furtherance of their hatefilled anti-people agenda here in the US.

[short bus president]

13. If yer Jewish, you have a free trip coming to you

anyway. No jeebus donations needed. State of Israel ponies up for Jews to travel to the homeland. Not sure what the program's called, but it was there 4 or 5 years ago, and I would assume it still is.

[Paschall]

4. Trinity Broadcasting Network?

Wasn't that outfit co-founded by Jim Bakker? Funny, there's no mention of him on their website.

They sound spooky to me. <snip...>

Q: What is TBN's Statement of Faith?
We believe that the Holy Bible is the inspired, infallible, and authoritative source of Christian doctrine and precept. ... We believe that the only hope for man is to believe on Jesus Christ, the virgin-born Son of God, Who died to take upon Himself the punishment for the sin of mankind, and Who rose from the dead, so that by receiving Him as Savior and Lord, man is redeemed by His Blood.
We believe that Jesus Christ in person will return to earth in power and glory.
We believe that the Holy Spirit indwells {sic} those who have received Christ for the purpose of enabling them to live righteous and godly lives. ... The mission of the Church is worldwide evangelization on the one hand, and the nurture and discipline of Christians on the other.

http://www.tbn.org/index.php/3/3.html#Q1

[Rabrrrrrr]

6. You don't need to {sic} the word "indwells"

it's a proper theological term.

But, anyway, it's an odd mission statement - the ending of it, while I'm sure they aren't intentionally trying to leave room for shenanigans, sounds like they are trying to establish the fact there will be one set of doctrine for evangelization, and another set of doctrine for current Christians, just in the way they so emphatically say "one the one hand" and "on the other". Sounds like a real "Our left hand will do one thing while our right hand will do another" just like so many of these fundamentalist Christians in the US have a policy of "our mouth will say one thing while our actions - well, you should just ignore our actions and trust us that they are, actually, Godly, and actually aren't contrary to what we say no matter how much they might seem contrary to that and, in fact, we'd ask you now to please stop oppressing Christians and let us have our faith".

[trent21]

7. No, that was PTL

The "Praise The Lord" channel and theme park. But Bakker is back (I don't know the name of his new organization) but I've seen him on various Christian televangelist channels.

[bobbieinok]

16. TBN was founded by Paul and Jan Crouch

They used to have a 30 minute + segment every once in a while that would show the new buildings and programs and stations around the world.

The Crouches are either in TX or CA.

[Nikia]

8. I didn't think that the most of the Jews would die

I thought that Israel was actually one of the safest places until the final battle. Revelation predicts lots of plagues and disasters. The U.S. could be completely destroyed since it is not mentioned (unless of course it is the "Whore of Babylon or another player like that"). In fact, I think that 144,000 Jewish men are suppose to be evangelists of some sorts. At the final judgement, the nations will be judged on how they treated the Jews. The Jews don't actually come out too badly in this compared to everyone else. I believe that some Orthodox Jews are waiting for the coming of the Messiah and trying to push along prophecy concerning this as well.

[scottcsmith]

11. Jewish concept of messiah is a bit different

We Jews still go to hell if we reject Christ.

Also, the Jewish concept of the Messiah is very different than the Christian interpretation. The coming of our Messiah does not bring with it death and destruction and plagues and the Devil or pits of fire.

[Loonman]

9. TBN is the "black sheep" of the television preacher movement

Even the traditional(PTL, CBN, etc.) televangelists don't like the Crouch's(couple with wacky hair and wackier outfits that do the most airshifts on that network).

[Ellen Forradalom]

10. Ooog.... TBN infomercial?

What are you doing watching that dreck? Are you trying to lower your IQ?

[joeybee12]

12. They won't kill ALL of you--the prohesy (which exists only in their tiny

little minds, not in any scriptures) is that 100,000 of you will convert!

Hey, you might be the lucky one!

You know, we bitch about oil being the cause of the Iraq invasion, but it's also about the Rapture--pretty fucking scary!

[ProdigalJunkMail]

14. so, this was made up?

Revelation 7
1 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3 "Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God." 4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

Or is the book of Revelation not considered scripture by you (some people do not hold to this book)? Just curious about your statement...

TheProdigal

[Karenina]

15. It's SO OUT THERE!

The X-tian fundies are NUTS, cloning their red calf and all, hustling those Jews back to the Holy Land, not to be eclipsed by the Jewish fundies joining forces with those who would happily see them dead... Are we living in BIZARRE times, or what?
:shrug:

[ProdigalJunkMail]

17. well, I border on fundie-ness

and I too think the times are bizarre. Don't remember where in scripture it says all the jews have to be back in Israel before the second coming. I am not sure it says that even though it does say a little about the twelve tribes must be living on ALL the land that God promised to the descendants of Abraham before the second coming. So, maybe the TBN folks ARE whacked and just giving free rides...looks like if they want the second coming, they should be giving the Palestinians free rides OUT of there...I am not advocating that, just seems like that would be the direction to take if they are trying to bring about the second coming. Also, it does seem a little arrogant of all those trying to force the second coming that they are second guessing the timing of God.

TheProdigal <---twenty second theology major :-) !!!

[joeybee12]

19. According to the fundies, the Palestinians have to die...no sense in

giving them bus fare, then.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

22. actually there are a lot of Palestinian Christians

so that posit might be a problem. The ones who are advocating for the return of the Jews generally believe that for the second coming to occur, the Jews (and for some reason ALL the Jews) have to be in the Israel laid out before Abraham.

TheProdigal

[joeybee12]

24. Yeah, but do you think the whackos running this current mis-administration

know or care about the difference?

My original point is that the reasons for our terrorist invasion of Iraq had nothing to do with fighting terrorism, but had a lot to do with oil, revenge, and the strong pull of fundies within this government who want to bring about the Rapture pretty damn soon.

Anyway, time for dinner.

Na shledano.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

26. enjoy your meal

and to tell you the truth, it is hard to know what some of the whacko's think... :-)

TheProdigal

OnEdit: please don't think I was suggesting a freeper style debate with this series of responses...

[brainshrub]

28. So why don't they back a plan to forcibly move the Jews to Israel?

Not that I want that to happen, but I guess that's what you would expect from them.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

29. beats me

I have a hard time getting into the mind of someone who twists scripture to meet their own needs and wants. I admit everyone who reads and believes does that to some extent, but some of these folk just glom onto some obscure passage or other and base their whole reason for existing on that. I cannot think that way...seems like the WHOLE inspired Word of God should be taken in and processed, not just passages X, Y and Z.

TheProdigal

[Cheswick2.0]

20. I enjoyed your post

I was about to say aren't the Palestinians also descendents of Abraham?
Off topic. Have you ever read Blood Brothers by Elias Chacour? I would recommend it for anyone interested in I/P situation.

On Edit, and Christians would be the children of Abraham too since we are an "off shoot" of Judiasm. This is why there is so much misunderstanding of that particular idea. I have been told it would take place when all the children of Abraham (in other words Jews Christians and Muslim)are all united as one community in the Promised land".

[ProdigalJunkMail]

25. never got that take on it

but it is certainly worth thinking on! I will certainly look into the recommended book.

As far as the Palestinian offshoot of Abraham I am not sure how the lineage works out there. I know that the covenant was established with Isaac...not sure where the decendants of Ishmael went except God did promise to Hagar that he would multiply her offspring through him...more reading for sure!

TheProdigal

[joeybee12]

18. I'll have to read the whole passage...

...but anyway, this is very open to interpretation.

Besides, the Book of revelation was made up, if not by nutcases now, then by nutcases back then.

People who wrote this crap would be the ones shooting up their high schools today.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

21. nah, John was pretty much a pacifist

as were most of the apostles. And as far as the made up thing, well, depending on your perspective, everything is made up so that is no more or less reality than anything else.

The entire book of Revelations is very open to interpretation as you point out. There have been major debates over the years as to whether or not it even should be included in the Canon. While debating those of us with a Christian bent, you get much much further with a knowledge of the scripture, the people who wrote it and the era from which it comes. There are several good books out there for shooting down the scriptures contained in the bible...many are intriguing. The thing to be wary of is making a statement like 'that's not even in there' and then having be put before you. This will cause many of us whack-job fundies to dismiss your comments out of hand. But, many of us will talk ad-nauseum to someone who is well informed...even if they disagree with us.

Please, there is no malice meant in this reply. I am not trying to be snooty (even though many times I come across that way so I guess it is something I need to work on) but you sound like you might have fun with the debate in another forum. Just trying to be helpful!

TheProdigal

[joeybee12]

23. I see your point...

...I just won't say this on a freeper web site/chat room!

But even if you go so far as to admit that this will happen, then you open yourself up to the timing, etc. I mean, those who started the Crusades obviously believed in stuff like that, and here we are, hundreds of years later and people are still expecting the end any minute.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

27. all in God's timing

wow...that's a heck of a way to open a response. Anyway, the thing that kills me is that most people that look into Revelation looking for a timeline seem to forget that Jesus himself stated that only the Father knows when those things would occur. He admonishes us to be vigilant and watchful, but I have yet to see the command to 'force' the return.

Thanks for the pleasant chat!
TheProdigal

[DrWeird]

31. It wasn't the apostle but another John that wrote Revelations.

The so called John the Elder. And if what is on the Discovery channel is true he was some nut living in a cave.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

35. you're right...my mistake

screwed up note-taking will cause that error...as to his nuttiness, well according to some all of Christendom is nut so that can be taken for what it is worth. John the Baptist would have been a nut...Christ himself would have been a nut and so forth.

TheProdigal

[crobinson2k]

30. I'm Jewish

and I've always wanted to see Prague. Any luck they'd fly me there?

[joeybee12]

32. Welcome--I've ben there three times in the last year--Prague, that is..

...my favorite city. I want to move there! If they end up flying you there, can I claim to be Jewish so I can get a free tix also????

[camero]

33. That's funny

I thought it was us goy who were gonna die. Whoops.

The fundies are whacked no doubt about it.

[Rattlesnake]

34. As a Christian..

I am embarrassed and pissed that TBN calles themselves a Christian network. :grr: