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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 05:03 PM
Original message
Poll question: What is the purpose of the white dress?
You know, the dress the woman wears at her wedding, even if it's Britt-Brat doing a sham wedding w/annulment just to show how "cool" she thinks she is?
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 05:05 PM
Response to Original message
1. It's a nice dress that you can wear again
And for heaven's sake, it better not cost too much!
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baldguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. They always say that about the bridesmaids' dresses, too.
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Ellen Forradalom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
2. Oh, strictly customary
Why do we do anything commonly associated with life's passages?
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Nikia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #2
13. I think that's true
In both my intro anthropolgy class and my classical mythology class, we learned that right of passage rituals usually involved special clothing. That is true in American society as well. Think about baptisms and graduation ceremonies as well. The bride wears a special dress because she is changing her identity from an unmarried to a married woman, which is a big deal and an even bigger deal in the past.
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neebob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 05:07 PM
Response to Original message
3. You left out
"To remind all women they must strive to be worthy of the glittering man-prize."
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Robb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. This may be
the funniest phrase of my week: "glittering man prize". :D
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. LOL, good one!
:D

All that glitters is not gold!

How it gets to glitter like that is best left as speculate thoughts... :evilgrin: Oops, did you say "glitter" or "glimmer"? :D
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neebob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #5
16. Thanks, but I should quit while I'm ahead. nt
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
6. Because people are filthy liars without integrity who think they can...
Edited on Sun Jan-11-04 05:13 PM by JVS
mold reality to fit in with their ideal wishes. Brides who falsely wear white should go straight to hell! Such an act is mocking the almighty!
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Robb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. When you say "mocking the almighty"
...you make it sound like a bad thing. ;)








...or a dirty one. :evilgrin:
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. If a person goes in for a church wedding, they should play by the rules.
Edited on Sun Jan-11-04 05:16 PM by JVS
If I were a pastor beholding such a mockery, I would hope that I would have the strength to eject the offending person from the church immediately.
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put out Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Is there a virgin test?
Or would I get an ejection for offending? Would it matter if I dressed as Elvis? I'm trying to do the right thing, here.
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neebob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. If you're worried about a test
Maybe you should consider calling yourself something other than "put out." :)
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Liberal Veteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. Yeah there is a test.....
...something about summoning a unicorn or something like that. It's all very hush-hush.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. Dressing as Elvis is fine.
I guess I'll tone it down a few pegs.

What I am really getting at here is that it bothers me that people often want to have things both ways. It bothers me that some would want a traditional wedding, but not respect the customs of that traditional wedding. It bothers me that some want their marraige to be done in a church as a sign of their faith, but then arrrive wearing what amounts to a lie before both God and congregation.
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Lars39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Flip side, try bucking the traditional,
and see how the bride would be treated. I was married in an off-white gown and caught flak for it. Can't win for losin', I guess. :shrug:
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. I respect the honesty that you displayed.
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Robb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. I've always thought of the wedding
as being for just about everyone but the couple getting married. Kind of like a funeral in that way... as I see it, if Aunt Bossy would have a coronary if her niece was wearing brown, heck, put her in white. :shrug:
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Lars39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. Not all honesty, there was some naivity involved.
Seriously did not know the old-biddy squad would say anything; didn't think it was anybody's business.

The expectation that a bride dress to reflect her chastity or lack therof kinda smacks of property/ownership. Is she not free to wear what she wants?

If the man and woman are considered equal, he should wear white too. :evilgrin:
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Liberal Veteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. Well...to be honest, there hasn't been much of a demand for male virginity
Historically speaking, men weren't really expected to maintain virginity until marriage. It sorta begs the question as to whom they are supposed to lose it to, but their has never been a real societal premium on male "purity".
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Lars39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. I know.
Edited on Sun Jan-11-04 05:55 PM by Lars39
I think it all goes back to ensuring that the heir is really the heir, and not some 6 month miracle baby. :o

on edit: my smiley wasn't constructed correctly. Must be the braces.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. miracle baby.
Good one.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #22
30. The fact that it isn't anyone's business makes me favor non-traditional
As far as I'm concerned people doing the traditional thing and wearing white is like screaming "Look at me, I'm a virgin!!!"
Offensive as it may be to have them make their own business known publicly, it is even more offensive when they do it and you know that they are lying.
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Lars39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. Like the 40 yo woman that's been married twice already
and had 3 kids. It's just a farce at that point, imo.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. yeah.
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VelmaD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. I hate to be rude but...
if all you have to get offended about is brides wearing white when you think they aren't a virgin...then you need to get out more. :-)
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Lars39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. Which brings up the question:
Is everybody thinking about sex during the ceremony? :D
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. I have seen ministers crack wise on the topic. I nearly died!
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VelmaD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. Well, I'm generally not...
at least not with the bride and/or grrom. :evilgrin:

Who knew that so many people went to weddings just to see if the bride was a virgin. :eyes:
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Lars39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. I must be jaded.
I just take it for granted that neither are, that they've found out that they are compatible. :shrug:
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. No offense taken. There are plenty of things to be bothered by.
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Liberal Veteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. I don't have a problem with that sentiment....
While I think it's impossible to tell (unless of course the bride is on her second marriage or obviously pregnant or has children), I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that people take the tradition seriously on what is a fairly serious occasion.
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put out Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #15
23. I did not at all mean to offend.
On a more serious note, I question why the bride's virginal status is proclaimed, or, I guess if she is wearing white and not a virgin, falsified. How does one determine whether or not the groom is virginal? Does that not matter?
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. Just because something can't be proven doesn't make it false
This is a case where the person lying and at least one other person know that the bride is lying.

Traditionally the groom's sexual history is not indicated by any element in the ceremony. This is because it is historcally considered unimportant. Is this perhaps not a fair tradition? Yes. But nobody is compelled to have a traditional wedding either. To me the case is quite clear, if you are going to have the ceremony done in the traditional way, you should do it correctly. My roommate, who loved ham, would never have dreamed of serving it at a passover Seder. It would have been an affront to the tradition. Similarly if someone is going through the whole traditional wedding thing and they act in a manner that they know is false, they have disrespected the ceremony.
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Nikia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #6
32. I don't think virginity is anyone's business
but the couples.
The dress is part of the custom for the rite of passage. It is symbolic.
No one should be criticized for wearing white if they are not a virgin, especially if it is her first marriage. She is going from unmarried to married status. The dress is part of that.
Most American brides are not virgins. It is more difficult to be a virgin when we are marrying later (which is expected) and have longer and closer courtships (which is also expected). A 30 year old bride who has dated her groom for 5 years and engaged for 2 years while the perfect wedding is planned is probably not a virgin nor should expected to be.
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Liberal Veteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 05:22 PM
Response to Original message
11. I think the white dress is fine, but...
The entire cottage industry that has sprung up around a simple wedding ceremony has become something of a joke.

When I hear about average people spending more than the average downpayment on a nice house for a wedding, it makes me a bit sad.

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kskiska Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 05:31 PM
Response to Original message
17. I remember when these things were taken seriously
Many non-virgins had civil ceremonies, wearing suits with a corsage.

Non-virginal brides who chose large weddings sometimes had qualms about wearing white, and so chose to wear "ivory" or "off-white" gowns. Of course, there was always much speculation in these cases. If a bride who wore white happened to have a "premature" baby, it was considered the height of hypocrisy.

No one cares anymore.
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ldoolin Donating Member (642 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 05:57 PM
Response to Original message
27. Why do men wear ties? Why do women carry purses?...
...Why are capitol buildings shaped like they are?

Y'know, the amount of sexual symbolism in our society is amazing, considering how much the fundamentalists want us to think that we used to have some kind of sexually pure Biblical morality in the past.
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populistmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-04 06:00 PM
Response to Original message
29. I think if its your first marriage it's fine
Virginity test? Please. :eyes:
Second marriage or beyond, than it's a bit ridiculous to wear a white gown. Rather inappropriate IMHO.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-04 02:34 AM
Response to Original message
40. "Restoring" virginity
Edited on Mon Jan-12-04 02:35 AM by SoCalDem
In "olden times" the bride and groom would leave the reception, to consummate the union.... and the man would return to the party (usually downstairs) and wave the "bloody sheet" to the guests who remained at the party.. This was "proof positive" that she was His and His alone, and any children that resulted from the union would unequivocally be his..






Interesting article :
http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~issues/fall98/hymenrep.html
Restoring Virginity
Hymen repair surgery saves lives at the expense of deception

by Sue Yeon Choi

In some cultures, it is more than her sparkling eyes, her radiant smile, or her exhilarating personality that makes a woman a desirable bride. It is in-stead the presence of a women's hymen, something which can affect her marriage prospects, her family's reputation, and even her very life. For these women, hymenorraphy, or hymen repair surgery, may actually provide an escape from grave social persecution.

The hymen is a membranous fold of tissue that covers the external vaginal orifice. The biological function of the human hymen is still uncertain; scientists hypothesize that it protects the vagina from infection in infants. The social function of the hymen, however, has been and still is a mythical symbol of virginity in many cultures. Upon initial intercourse, a woman's hymen ruptures and bleeds. The image of a bloody sheet is highly celebrated in many cultures because it represents the purity of a woman and the virility of a man.

In these non-Western societies, the virginity of the bride is valued for religious, social, and even economic reasons. For example, the Koran, the Islamic holy book, states that the bride must be a virgin. In China, the bride's virginity determines the amount of betrothal gifts. "The presence of the hymen is particularly important for families of prestige who want to keep the family lineage non-contaminated," explained Professor Charles S. Nicoll from the Department of Integrative Biology at University of California (UC), Berkeley. These traditional cultural beliefs demand the "bloody sheet" no matter what.

According to a survey conducted by Dr. Sara Paterson-Brown, consultant obstetrician and gynecologist at Queen Charlotte's Hospital in London, however, the sheet may not tell the complete truth. When she surveyed 41 female colleagues about their first intercourse experiences, she found that only 14 bled, 26 did not, and one did not re- member. Dr. Paterson-Brown explained, "Factors such as sporting activities and use of tampons mean that bleeding with first sexual intercourse is not inevitable." Moreover, the hymen of some women are very elastic and will allow penetration without bleeding. Research, therefore, like Dr. Paterson-Brown's, show that the presence of the hymen is not an accurate indicator of virginity.

Unfortunately, the consequences of not bleeding, or being a "non-virgin" bride, can be severe. In many Mediterranean and African cultures, the husband's family may take revenge through violent punishments and banishment of the bride because the "non-virgin" bride "shamed" them. Among the Yungar people of Australia, girls without the hymen before marriage were starved, tortured, or even killed. In Arab countries, the "non-virgin" brides may be killed by her brothers, uncles, or even fathers. The perpetrators often escape prosecution due to the strong customs that justify such murders.

Clearly, those who seek hymenorraphy believe that the procedure is necessary for their social status, happiness, and even preservation of life. In the past ten years in Egypt, the hymen repair surgery has reduced 80 percent of the murders committed when a bride was found not to be a virgin on the wedding night, according to the June 1996 issue of the British medical journal, The Lancet.

A typical hymen repair surgery involves suturing the remnants of the ruptured hymen together along with a gelatin capsule containing a blood-like substance. A small section of vaginal wall is dissected for the reconstruction when the hymenal remnants are insufficient, but the procedure is considered relatively simple. The husband will be convinced of the bride's virginity when the capsule bursts during intercourse.

Cost of this fake virginity? Not cheap. In Egypt, women are paying US $100-600 for the operation, which can be done in clinics or even in private houses. In Turkey, the price for hymenorraphy is estimated to be between $140 and $1500, averaging at about $570. The June 8, 1996 issue of The Lancet cited an example of a woman who "managed to avoid sexual intercourse for four months by pretending to be insane... she was saving up for the operation."

The lucrative procedure can be quite appealing to physicians. One Turkish gynecologist expressed her view on the subject in the 1997 issue of Women's Studies International Forum: "...since there is a demand in the society, what can be wrong with offering supply?"

The financial gain, however, is not the only factor motivating doctors to provide this service. Physicians who choose to perform hymen reconstruction feel they have a professional responsibility to their patients. Some, like Dr. Paterson-Brown, believe that hymenorraphy is comparable with plastic surgery in ethical terms and justifiable in circumstances when the women would otherwise suffer disgrace or worse, death.

Others argue that performing hymenorraphy is unethical because the physician participates in a plot of deception. They believe it is disrespectful to the person that the woman will be marrying and that marriage should be built on love, respect, and decency. Since the procedure is illegal in many of the countries where the demand for it is the greatest, choosing to perform the procedure or not becomes a legal issue as well.

Moreover, although hymenorraphy may be directly beneficial for the well-being of the patient, some physicians feel that it could lead to negative consequences in a larger cultural context. Dr. Guy Micco, director of UC Berkeley Center for Medicine, believes that performing such surgeries tends to perpetuate a harmful cultural belief that all brides must provide the bloody sheet or be subject to cruelty when they do not.

An article in the 1997 issue of Women's Studies International Forum stated that in some countries like Morocco, it is no secret that the virginity of the bride may be artificial. " must be the aim of education," said Dr. Paterson-Brown. Emphasizing the importance and need for education in this matter, she added, "I have been asked , but I have never had to do it, since detailed discussion and education have persuaded those concerned it is not needed."

This issue questions the fundamental role of a physician. Should the primary responsibility of a physician be strictly to save lives or instead to cater to patients' needs whatever they may be? Or does a physician have a predominant responsibility to the overall health of society? While some women continue to seek hymenography as a solution to social pressures, the worldwide medical community will continue to struggle with these questions.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sue Yeon Choi is an molecular cell biology major who wants a pet neuron.



Berkeley Medical Journal Issues
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