Fuck me, I was just arguing with the Gun Nuts. What's wrong with me? That's like

[Redstone]

trying to argue with Scientologists about the aliens-in-the-volcanoes thing. Though I will say that Scientologists tend to be able to use the English language much better than the Gun Nuts I interacted with tonight.

Just NOT worth the effort, and I should have known better...

Redstone

[SPKrazy]

1. I'd Rather Not..

but valiant effort... tipping at windmills

[Redstone]

3. Yes. As I said, I should have known better. I'll stay in the Lounge for a while.

Redstone

[Ptah]

2. The vortex got you?

Glad you made it out alive.

:thumbsup:

[Redstone]

22. Yes I did, but only because I said "fuck it" and stopped replying to the replies.

Those Gun Nuts make the most zealous Holy Rollers look like amateurs in their single-mindedness.

Redstone

[Ptah]

25. I'm glad you recused yourself.

Bikewriter was here just the other day.

[Redstone]

29. And how is my friend BW? I haven't talked with him for a while; I hope he's well.

Redstone

[krispos42]

4. We tend to get very picky about that topic

n/t

[pscot]

5. Not getting your share of abuse at home?

n/t

[Gormy Cuss]

6. Redstone,Redstone, Redstone.

You're going to have one helluva bruise tomorrow from all that
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

[sir_captain]

7. It boggles the mind

that a person purporting to be a progressive would not support the ban of assault rifles and such; it's just crazy.

[hedgehog]

13. I think it's ingrained deep into some of the cultures in this country.

Some people are still living under the Code of Honor and see threats from every direction that must be answered personally. You can rattle off statistics all night, but they're still convinced that they'll be called upon to defend themselves or their family.

[Redstone]

20. Yup, they really DO believe that "Red Dawn" could actually happen. Poor deluded

sons of bitches that they are.

The "Code of Honor." Kind of like the Albanians who spend their lives walled up in a tower, because they're the target of a revenge killing based on a Blood Feud. Now THERE'S a basis for a genuine civilization, yes?

Redstone

[Alexander]

24. Some people like the entire Bill of Rights, not just some of them.

And when others treat Amendment #2 as if it's somehow not as important as the rest.....well, they shouldn't be surprised when some of these people fight back.

I used to be for gun control, but then Bush came into office. And like it or not, it is a HELL of a lot harder to suppress an armed citizenry than an unarmed one.

[Redstone]

28. So, if Martial Law is declared, your .30-.30 is going to defeat the US Army?

I doubt it.

redstone

[Alexander]

33. Nope, your straw man argument doesn't work here.

First of all, I don't own a gun. Period.

Second, my gun, if I ever had one, might stop one or two DHS people as they kick down my door. If I'm lucky. But that's not what I argued.

Your last post puts one person - me - against the US Army. If you can't see that as the bullshit that it is, then I don't know what to tell you; are we really fighting Iraqi "insurgents" one by one? Why do you think suppressing the US population would be any different?

I argued that an unarmed citizenry is easier to suppress than an armed one. And for all your rhetoric, it is still true.

How many people are in our entire armed services? 10 million? 20? I'm being generous - I suspect it's much less than 10 million.

Last I checked, our population was 300 million. Even a tenth of those people, at 30 million, would give our armed forces a hell of a time if Shrubbie decides martial law is the answer.

You really expect me to believe the US Army can subdue the entire US population when they can't even defeat impoverished Iraqis with home-made explosives and weapons?

EDIT: This brings me to another point - you take someone's weapons away, and they will simply make their own anyway. Our troops are learning this rather painful lesson in Iraq.

As another poster said, there are "gun nuts" on both sides. Unfortunately, many of these nuts do not see that their position is, well, nuts.

:eyes:

[sir_captain]

36. You know what would be good?

Transplanting the horrible violence going on in Iraq over here. :eyes:

[Alexander]

48. You know what would be better?

You coming up with some well-reasoned, thought out arguments, instead of insults and straw men, just because someone happens to disagree with you.

:eyes:

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Alexander]

47. ROFL - I'm "insane" because I disagree with you!!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

1) You would do well not to insult people just because they disagree. The view I take is that the 2nd Amendment calls for the individual ownership of firearms. Apparently I have 200 some-odd years of precedent behind my opinion, because otherwise it would just be the National Guard that owned weapons. We can agree to disagree without you getting all hostile, nasty and unpleasant.

2) You think Tempe is a walk in the park? Try living here.

I don't know where you get your ideas, but:

-I hear gunshots day and night.

-I have personally SEEN drunk idiots at parties fire guns into the air not 10 feet away from me on several occasions.

-The nearest stop sign has three bullet holes in it.

-The nearest convenience store just installed a bulletproof glass partition, and the co-owner, whom I personally know, is in a wheelchair, because he was shot and paralyzed.

-My roommate had his car broken into this past week, and everything was stolen. This happened maybe 30 feet from where I sleep at night.

-Crackheads and tweakers are everywhere - crack and meth are popular drugs here - and are seen in public on a daily basis. I suspect that this is the cause of a great deal of crime around these parts.

3) I have lived in more places than just Tempe. Since you were too busy assuming things about me instead of coming up with a sensible argument, you probably forgot to check that out.

4) Since the entire rest of my family is from Detroit, I've been there about a thousand times in my life so far, including such lovely places as Herman Gardens, the roach-infested housing project in western Detroit where my dad grew up. The crime situation there makes Tempe and Philly look like a joke.

Keep guns off the street? Of course. But that's a loaded term, if you'll forgive the pun. I see absolutely no problem with allowing law-abiding adult citizens to own guns. The question is, how to keep criminals from getting them? Nothing will be 100% perfect.

Unfortunately a lot of Democrats in power know very little about guns; Sens. Schumer and Feinstein come to mind. This reveals a great deal about most of the anti-gun nuts in this country:

-Most have no f'ing clue about firearms at all, and many have never encountered or used one, even at a range.

-Many wish to outright ban the sale and use of firearms, which is illegal, unconstitutional and un-American.

-Most do not realize that the main causes of violence do not involve guns at all, but culture, economic stability, mental health and other such factors.

-They tend to forget that countries in which guns are banned/restricted also have terrible problems with violent criminals wielding knives or swords or simply making weapons. For example, in the UK civilians cannot have guns. Hence, now there's a knife problem, and violent crime has actually increased since the ban. So what's Blair's solution? Ban knives! Great, like that'll work. Are they going to ban hammers and tire irons next?

Get back to me when your rantings make sense.

[krispos42]

37. Gun control has it's roots in conservativism

After all, white Amurhka don't want them darkies ownin' guns, right?

At some point the Democrats seemed to decide that they had to appear tough on crime without taking the side of the hard-line law-and-order Repub types. So they went after scary looking weapons.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x134977

As it stands now, I think you'll find that a much larger percentage of minorities have very restricted access to legal guns than whites.

If your goal is a more peaceful society, fix the damn schools, bring back industry and the progressive tax system, create universal single-payer health care, and legalize drugs.

[sir_captain]

38. Strom Thurmond used to be a Democrat too

times change. Regardless of the history of gun control (a topic on which I admit I am not particularly well-versed) you cannot convince me that taking assault rifles off the streets isn't anything but a great thing. There is not sane reason why anyone not in the military needs to own that sort of weapon.

I wholeheartedly agree with you about fixing education, health care, etc, but I'd like to have my cake and eat it too, thank you very much.

[krispos42]

39. The Dems went anti-gun in the 80s or so

Strom, I'm going to assume, went Repub after the Civil Rights Act passed.

And since nearly all gun crime is done with either handguns or sawed-off shotguns, taking semi-automatic assault rifles off the streets will do nothing except erode freedom and set the stage for future gun laws that lose Democrats more elections.

I can point to the UK. They tried banning assault weapons in 1986, and all handguns in 1997. They are currently at record-high levels of homicide, violent, and non-violent crime.

It may seem counter-intuitive, but that's the facts.

[Oeditpus Rex]

49. I'm curious

What are "record-high levels" of homicide, etc., in the U.K.?

I don't know anything about it, but I'd hazard a guess that they're lower than "acceptable" levels in the U.S.

[krispos42]

53. It's about 1.5 per 100,000 people per year

About one-third of our rate. The problem is that 40 years ago, it was one-eighth of ours, about 0.8.

Compared to 40 years ago, their rate has literally doubled, while ours is down by 11%. We had a really bad time in the 80s, but it dropped off under Clinton with the good economy and his COPS program, plus the crack cocaine market settled out.

Their 40-year-peak was in 2002, 16 years after their ban on semi-automatic rifles and shotguns (assault weapons) and 5 years after their total handgun ban.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=132832&mesg_id=133002

Our problem is that our non-gun homicide rate is STILL awfully high compared to most of the industrialized world. Our non-gun homicide rate is a 1.5 per 100,000 per year, or 0.015 per 1,000 per year. When you look at this page, you see that our non-gun homicide rate is in the same range and Canada's, the UK's, and Australia's total homicide rate.

I covered this problem in a bit of detail in this thread here, more specifically in the bottom half or so of this post.

My point is that there is far more going on than a simplistic 'if there are no guns there is no crime' approach, and there are methods to achieve lower crime rates that are faster, better, and more constitutional than banning ergonomic proturding pistol grips or bayonet mounting hardware. And those methods are investments, not just expenses. Oh, and those methods will gain us, not cost us, votes and political power.

[Alexander]

56. Well said!

Isn't it wonderful how anti-gun nuts can be tripped up by something as simple as factual data?

[Redneck Socialist]

44. Yeah those bayonet lugs are just crazy

Can't be a progressive and favor bayonet lugs. That's what me pappy always said anyway.

:evilgrin:

Since this is the lounge I'll let this end here. :D

[BreweryYardRat]

51. Well, what we think of as an assault rifle isn't technically an assault rifle.

Weapons capable of firing on full-auto are banned for civilian use without major fees (which 99% of criminals won't/can't pay), and have been since like the 1930s, I think.

"Assault rifles" in the US are basically just high-capacity semi-auto rigs with cut-down features.

I will never support legalizing full-auto (or anything that can be converted into full-auto), because most of the people likely to buy those guns would be idiots with no sense of fire discipline.

[kedrys]

8. You could have shoved your upper body into

a 55 gallon drum of broken glass and saved a lot of time...

:P

[reyd reid reed]

9. .....

:hug::hug:

[Redstone]

14. Hey, Sweets, how have you been? I'ts been a while.

Redstone

[MikeH]

10. I stay out of the gun forum, or gungeon

I am strongly in favor of gun control, but do not care to argue with the pro-gun people.

[Redstone]

17. An excellent policy on your part. Would that I were smart enough to remember that.

Redstone

[graywarrior]

11. What ever will you do once you move to NH?

[Redstone]

16. That might be a problem, indeed. My perspective of being someone who's actually been

shot might put me at odds with those who are only used to doing the shooting.

Or maybe not. We'll see.

Redstone

[graywarrior]

30. I doubt you will have a problem with any of them.

[Redneck Socialist]

46. Us NH gun nuts are generally the polite sort.

I wouldn't worry about it.

Pre-welcome to NH btw. :hi:

[Taverner]

12. People go crazy on both sides of the gun issue

I choose to stay away from the wedge. I have nothing against guns - they don't make any real difference either way.

[mainegreen]

15. Oh, I don't know. I think the Scientologists are ever so infuriating.

[gratuitous]

18. I avoid Second Amendment discussions like the plague

One side never makes any sense at all.

But I feel for you; every now and then I back into one by accident. Have a beer.

[Midlodemocrat]

19. Well, here's a tale about the gun nuts.

Thursday AM about 1AM, a repo dude showed up at chez midlo. Looking for a car that I DON'T OWN, but one that I had paid the note on numerous times because the folks were in trouble. Their kid has cancer.

He was in my driveway. He was in my backyard looking into my garage to make sure that the car that was in my garage wasn't the car he was looking for. IOW, that I wasn't hiding it.

So, here I am. Older than I will admit mom with three children. Husband who has had a horrific plethora of health issues, but is out of town doing his job.

If I had seen this guy in my back yard with the flashlight checking for the VIN number, I would have probably fainted from fear. But, he had a gun. He told me so.

So, hypothetically at 1AM. I open the door, confront said dude about why he is in my back yard looking into my garage and HE's packing.

Nice. No good deed goes unpunished. I will never again pay someone's bills. EVER.

[Redstone]

21. I don't blame you for re-thinking your charitable urges after that encounter.

Not at all.

Redstone

[GoddessOfGuinness]

23. Holy crap!

That's scary! We've had "repo guys" show up in our neck of the woods who turn out to be thieves. I can't imagine a company sending reps out in the middle of the effing night!

IMO, they shouldn't be allowed to repo without a cop present; and it should be during respectable hours.

[Alexander]

27. I dated a girl whose dad was a repo guy.

This was in high school. He repossessed airplanes that had not been paid for.

He had many stories to tell, including how some "customers" would lock the plane in a hangar and defend their property with weapons - knowing full well they hadn't paid for it, and the property wasn't theirs.

From the sounds of it, he HAD to sneak around in the middle of the night (although he was with another repo man at all times) because otherwise he could very well have been killed or unemployed, and millions of dollars in aircraft would have gone "missing".

There's two sides to every story. If there was ever serious police reform I would like your idea of a cop having to be present, though.

[Alexander]

26. Doesn't sound like the gun made any difference at all.

He was still snooping around in your back yard in the middle of the night. If he didn't have a gun your story would be much the same.

If this sort of thing scares you and your family to death, then maybe you could stand to learn how to use a gun, and keep it at home in case the next guy isn't really a repo man.

Remember - criminals WANT you to be unarmed, or at least unwilling/unable to use a weapon in self-defense.

[Oeditpus Rex]

50. It seems to me

that if you're armed, you stand a much higher chance of being shot by a criminal than if you aren't.

[Alexander]

55. But no shooting took place, and the repo guy may not have done anything criminal.

That being said, if a civilian not only owns a gun but knows how and when to use it (a common problem often fixed by firearm training), they have a much higher likelihood of not having all their stuff stolen, hurt, etc.

That's the key - adequate training - which pisses off a lot of nuts on both sides.

-The gun nuts seem to think no training is necessary, which is absurd, since we have to take a driver's test (and often times take a driving class) to get a license to drive. Since a car isn't designed to be a deadly weapon, and a gun is, it makes sense to me to have mandatory and strict licensing tests and a good incentive to take firearm safety classes, if not make those mandatory as well.

-The anti-gun nuts seem to think nobody at all can be responsible with a firearm, no matter how much education, so we'd better just make sure nobody gets a gun. This seems to be a classic case of projection - they don't trust themselves with a gun, so of course they don't trust anyone else with one either.

That being said, nothing happened, which is the best possible outcome. My suggestion is that if the poster really did fear for her safety, as well as her family's, having zero guns is only one way of doing it, it is not necessarily *the* way.

Arming oneself, learning about firearms (including when to shoot, when to brandish, and when not to take it out at all) and keeping a weapon in a secure, concealed location is another such way. That's not *the* way either, but I have a problem with people who think everyone else should live just like them. Unfortunately that includes a lot of extremists on both sides of a lot of issues, many of whom happen to find their way to a keyboard and post their ideas on DU.

[alarimer]

31. I get asked all the time if I own a gun

Because I am female and live alone, I guess they figure that I need one to defend myself. Well, possibly, but the mostly likely scenario is that if I had a gun and someone was trying to do me harm, I am sure they would be able to steal it from me and then where would I be? No, if someone is determined to mess with me, I do whatever they want me to do. They can have my credit cards, all my money, whatever. I am not going to argue or resist or fight back. Now maybe that sounds excessively passive but it seems to be the surest way to stay alive.

[Jamastiene]

32. Did you really think you were going to be able to do anything

but agree with them 100% without getting spelling errors thrown in your face. You do know why they can't spell, don't you? It's because they try to type with the gun still in their hands. I'm surprised more toe shooting gun accidents don't happen with the way they go at it on their keyboards.

[LSK]

35. yes, some threads you just know to avoid

Guns are one of them.

[mentalsolstice]

40. Step back from GD! Right Now!

You're too good to be wasted on it!

[KitchenWitch]

41. Were you in the gungeon?

[leftofthedial]

42. you can have my gun when you pry it from my

cold dead fingers . . . same with my penis . . .

wait a minute, I don't own a gun.

Never mind.

About the gun . . .

[tcfrogs]

43. Come one, let's argue about Tim McGraw

just to make things interesting, Redstone. :D :hi:

[merh]

45. You may want to read my sig line

a wise man shared the secret with me and I've had it in my sig ever since. ;)

:hug: :loveya:

[uriel1972]

52. Coming from a country that has strong fire-arm laws

Watching and reading the pro-gun stuff is just ... well... perplexing.
I'm not here to argue about it just, gonna say that countries can get along without guns just fine.

[bridgit]

54. if i had money i'd buy a 30-30 lever like the rifleman er'whatever...

that show was cool B-)

[xchrom]

57. you just want the cute boys -- and the leather

outfits -- that come with a gun like that.

[Q3JR4]

58. Don't worry Redstone,

you can always get intelligent conversation here. :hi:

[buddhamama]

59. Locking...

From the Rules: Do not start a new topic in order to continue a flame war from another discussion thread.

It is also against the Rules to post group attacks against members of DU, and speak of them negatively in a thread in which they are not participating.

Sincerely,
buddhamama-DU Mod