Was Frank Zappa a rightwinger?

[deutsey]

I read a book on The Velvet Underground recently by a British author who classified Zappa as a sexist, libertarian rightwinger.

Sexist? I can see that. Libertarian? Yeah, of course.

But rightwinger?

What say you?

[Rabrrrrrr]

1. Definitely not a rightwinger

Sometimes a sexist. Sometimes a feminist.

Absolutely a libertarian.

[deutsey]

5. I emailed the author to say I disagreed with the "rightwinger" part

I said when I met Zappa in the mid-80s he was very concerned about repelling the "Reagan Revolution" and that Zappa was a huge influence on the "Velvet Revolution" in Czechoslovakia. This, in part, was the author's response:

Well, I knew that that one sentence would annoy Zappa fans, but I'm afraid that I stand by my claim, based on my understanding of him and his output. Firstly, I have been told many times by Americans that to be a Democrat is not necessarily to be of the Left, certainly not as Europeans see it. Secondly, I consider Zappa to be a libertarian capitalist, running his business and estate and so forth. Thirdly, I think the Velvet Revolution (which, as you know heralded a move to capitalism) is not as straightforward as it seems.

[Left Is Write]

14. How can you trust an author who says "firstly"?

:P

[Iris]

21. good point.

[Iris]

22. good point. (x2!)

dupe.

[Kutjara]

33. You can say "firstly" in British English.

But the next point should be "second," not "secondly."

[ghostsofgiants]

15. He's right.

I don't know much about Zappa, but if he was a libertarian, he supported free market capitalism, and as such is a right winger.

[itsmesgd]

2. he was not a fan of Tipper Gore

[YellowRubberDuckie]

4. When Tipper's kids were small...

She was a little right wing herself, if you think about it.
Duckie

[Spider Jerusalem]

3. He was more or less a right-wing libertarian.

Like those nutty Ayn Rand cultists. He thought unions and taxes were bad. He thought bussing students for school integration was bad. On balance you'd have to consider him more right than left. (Note that the libertarian right are opposed to censorship and generally anti-war, so his positions on those issues don't indicate that he was a leftist.)

[zulchzulu]

43. Frank didn't have one molecule of "right wing" in his body

As for "libertarian", he was firmly a soldier for the First Amendment. As for taxes, there is absolutely no indication that he was against them. If you can cite a quote, I'd be glad to see it.

[asthmaticeog]

51. You might want to read his autobiography.

He defines HIMSELF as a conservative and spells out his politics very plainly.

[Shakespeare]

66. Well, that's interesting. He was a big Clinton supporter.

So maybe not so much a rightwinger.

I was working in Gore's '96 campaign manager's office in DC and had to sign for a huge congratulatory bouquet Zappa sent. Zappa was NOT a rightwinger.

[deutsey]

68. The bouquet was probably from his wife Gail.

Frank died in '93.

I agree with you, though, that Zappa was not a rightwinger, although others on this thread who are more strict in how they define the term disagree.

[Shakespeare]

72. Yes, I know that.

It was signed from "The Zappas." I'm also the person who opened the card and put the flowers out for display.

Zappa was very, very good friends with Gore's campaign manager, and also friendly with the Gores. From what Gore's campaign manager told me, Zappa's issues with Tipper never extended beyond the record label controversy. One thing I admired about him is that he was intelligent enough and generous enough, apparently, to accept the differences of his friends.

This whole thread is a mess--people get WAY too wrapped up in labels, and Zappa--more than most, perhaps--defied labels.

[deutsey]

73. Your post gave me the impression that Zappa, not the Zappas, sent it

I was just trying to clarify, I didn't mean to critique what you said.

And I agree...I kind of regret starting this thread. Zappa did defy labels and, at the heart of it all, I think that's why I reacted the way I did to calling him "rightwing." I would have felt the same if someone had called him "leftwing" or "chickenwing." :evilgrin:

[NobleCynic]

6. I would disagree

[deutsey]

8. I did disagree and emailed the author

see his response above.

I wrote back and said I still disagree with him. I know many libertarians who are not rightwing. Based on Zappa's lyrics and commentary, I would NOT classify him as rightwing. He can certainly be problematic for left-leaning fans like myselft, though.

[Oeditpus Rex]

7. It's my understanding

that despite evidence in names to the contrary, he was fairly conservative when it came to child-rearing.

[deutsey]

9. Based on my Internet research

Zappa apparently did call himself a "practical conservative."

[Kat45]

26. I read quite the opposite about his child-rearing practices.

I've read that he encouraged graffiti by his kids on the walls of his house. IIRC, when the kids were older (both male and female), they were allowed to bring their lovers home with them. He was very much against drugs, but I believe he told his kids that if they wanted to try a drug they could, but it had to be at home--something most kids would not want to do.

[Initech]

10. Hell no. Listen to Broadway The Hard Way.

This album is a scathing editorial on how much he hated the GOP and ESPECIALLY the Christian fundamentalists. It's fucking awesome!

[B3Nut]

37. "Get a clue, little shrew, oh yeah oh yeah,

Jesus thinks you're a jerk!"

When the lie's so big
and the fog gets so thick
and the facts get forgotten
the Republican trick (ketchup is a vegetable!)
Can be played out again
Would you please tell me when
We'll be rid of these men?


Kickass album, and a cameo from Sting to boot. Can't go wrong with that CD!

Todd in Beerbratistan

[zulchzulu]

42. Watch "When The Lie's So Big"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muDk-9znpdc

Yeah...right winger my buttkuss...


They got lies so big
They don't make a noise
They tell 'em so well
Like a secret disease
That makes you go numb

With a big ol' lie
And a flag and a pie
And a mom and a bible
Most folks are just liable
To buy any line
Any place, any time

When the lie's so big
As in Robertson's case,
(That sinister face
Behind all the Jesus hurrah)

Could result in the end
To a worrisome trend
In which every American
Not 'born again'
Could be punished in cruel and unusual ways
By this treacherous cretin
Who tells everyone
That he's Jesus' best friend

When the lie's so big
And the fog gets so thick
And the facts disappear
The Republican Trick
Can be played out again
People, please tell me when
We'll be rid of these men!

Just who do they really
Suppose that they are?
And how did they manage to travel as far
As they seem to have come?
Were we really that dumb?

People, wake up
Figure it out
Religious fanatics
Around and about
The Court House, The State House,
The Congress, The White House

Criminal saints
With a 'Heavenly Mission' --
A nation enraptured
By pure superstition

When the lie's so big
And the fog gets so thick
And the facts disappear
The Republican Trick
Can be played out again
People, please tell me when
We'll be rid of these men!

[graywarrior]

11. Hell, no

http://youtube.com/watch?v=8ISil7IHzxc

[bridgit]

12. no...

[ghostsofgiants]

13. I think you're misunderstanding what right wing actually means.

I assume you're taking it to mean conservative, including social conservative. Really though, right and left wing are only meant to apply to the economic realm. Therefore, libertarianism as an ideology is inherently right wing as it opposes any government restraints on the market.

[GirlinContempt]

16. Stop making the sense

We don't like your kind around here

[ghostsofgiants]

17. Listen, I'm bored, what do you suggest I waste my time doing?

[PVnRT]

46. Masturbation

n/t

[ghostsofgiants]

53. There's only so much of that a guy can do.

[PVnRT]

61. Wimp

The spirit is willing, but the flesh is spongy and bruised.

[JVS]

24. senXXor is teh e\/i1

[deutsey]

34. I think, like "liberal", the term "rightwing" has become very loaded

Like all language, these terms take on a life of their own as they are used (and misused).

For me, "rightwing" implies economic as well as social and political views that I just don't see in Zappa. As I said in another post, I met Zappa in the '80s and he was very opposed to Reagan's rightwing views and was hoping, in fact, that the Democrats would hold onto Congress.

That said, I'm aware of his other views and that he called himself a "practical conservative."

I just didn't agree with the term "rightwing" because it doesn't fit what I understand the term to mean in common usage.

[ghostsofgiants]

52. BUt it does fit into the actual meaning, therefore, the author was right.

Just because people misunderstand what right wing actually means doesn't change the actual definition. Libertarianism as an ideology is inherently right wing despite its opposition to social conservatism. If Zappa was a libertarian, he was right wing. Simple as that.

[idgiehkt]

54. ooooooooooh

I love posts like this. :)

[ghostsofgiants]

55. Having to give basic political theory lessons ona political message board isn't as fun as it seems

Especially when my arms are sore as hell from three hours of shoveling snow. x(

[idgiehkt]

56. lol

"but Zappa was cool, he can't be anything negative"

:eyes:

[ghostsofgiants]

57. Hahaha.

Sometimes I wish I didn't study political science, just so I could ignore stuff like this, haha. I don't listen to Zappa, don't particularly care what his politics were, but such glaring misuse of terms is annoying, haha.

[deutsey]

59. And, golly, we do appreciate your efforts (and so say all of us).

:thumbsup:

[idgiehkt]

67. I do

It's quite refreshing.

[deutsey]

69. I'm half joking

The clarification of terms is welcome (although as I say in a post below I have my reasons for not agreeing 100% with the poster).

The condescension I can do without.

This is the DU Lounge, for god's sake, not some intellectual symposium of political scientists.

[idgiehkt]

70. half

Primate wasn't being condescending. His posts always read the same way. Your post sounded mean-spirited.

[deutsey]

71. Sarcasm was the intent.

Not frequenting the Lounge regularly, I am only able to go by how his post came across to me at this reading.

[deutsey]

58. I stand by my misstatements

As another rightwinger was known to say.

:evilgrin:

I still see the term more broadly than you do, obviously, which, language being fluid, is valid. But as Frank observed at the end of "Joe's Garage Acts II and III": "Who gives a fuck anyway?" :silly:

(I don't mean to be facetious, I just wanted to use that Zappa quote somewhere...seriously, I just wanted to know what DU'ers thought about this line from the book on the Velvets I recently read; I disagree with it based on the reasons I've already given...if others view it as accurate, vive la difference).

[ghostsofgiants]

60. Like I said to idgiehkt, I study political science, it's in my nature to assert the ACTUAL meanings.

Without them we lose our ability to properly discuss and understand politics.

[deutsey]

62. And I study language

and know that it is a fluid thing that evolves (as do political meanings, imo..."liberal" is a case in point and can cause confusion among people debating its meaning...classical, neo-liberal, New Deal liberal, liberal as a pejorative, etc.), but I understand--and agree with to a large extent--what you're saying. :hi:

[madrchsod]

18. realist

and one of the best guitar player i have ever heard

[GirlinContempt]

19. Was Ayn Rand?

[mitchum]

20. He was an asshole and that's often mistaken for a rightwinger

[Kat45]

23. He was against the fundies.

He was writing about the televangelists and such long before most others were talking about them.

[Spider Jerusalem]

25. Religious fanaticism isn't right wing, it's just insane.

The only reason people ASSOCIATE it with the right wing is because conservatives started pandering to religious nuts about the time Reagan got elected.

[ghostsofgiants]

27. So is everyone just ignoring my post...

In a concerted effort to appear ignorant on the basics of political theory?

[Spider Jerusalem]

28. Yours and mine both, apparently.

The prevailing mentality seems to be "but I LIKE Frank Zappa! So he CAN'T have been right-wing!" :eyes:

[ghostsofgiants]

29. Wish I could say I'm surprised.

[Robeson]

30. I haven't ignored them....

...I think you summed it up pretty well in post #3. If I had reiterated it, I would just be redundant.

[deutsey]

31. Yes, you've uncovered our conspiracy of silence

All of this is a huge set up to alienate you.

:evilgrin:

[jpgray]

32. Watch this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ISil7IHzxc

[deutsey]

35. Thanks for this

This is very informative and gives the various gradations of Zappa's political views.

:thumbsup:

[vi5]

36. This question is second in amount of DU debate time to..

...were Lynrd Skynrd democrats or republicans?

[deutsey]

38. Those redneck crackers?

I'm just joking...

:evilgrin:

[XNASA]

39. No. But he didn't like hippies either.

Walked past the wig store
Danced at the Fillmore
I'm completely stoned
I'm hippy & I'm trippy
I'm a gypsy on my own
I'll stay a week & get the crabs &
Take a bus back home
I'm really just a phony
But forgive me
'Cause I'm stoned

Every town must have a place
Where phony hippies meet
Psychedelic dungeons
Popping up on every street
GO TO SAN FRANCISCO . . .

[zulchzulu]

41. He didn't like drug abusers and alcoholics... he liked hippies...

Believe it or not, there is a difference. He didn't like phonies.

Tell me that none of the Mothers Of Invention were not "hippies"...

[XNASA]

45. Oh. OK.

Hey Punk, where you goin' with that flower in your hand?
Hey Punk, where you goin' with that flower in your hand?

Well, I'm goin' up to Frisco to join a psychedelic band.
I'm goin' up to Frisco to join a psychedelic band.

Hey Punk, where you goin' with that button on your shirt?
Hey Punk, where you goin' with that button on your shirt?

I'm goin' to the love-in to sit & play my bongos in the dirt.
Yes, I'm goin' to the love-in to sit & play my bongos in the
dirt.

Hey Punk, where you goin' with that hair on your head?
Hey Punk, where you goin' with that hair on your head?

I'm goin' to the dance to get some action, then I'm goin' home
to bed.
I'm goin' to the dance to get some action, then I'm goin' home
to bed.

Hey Punk, where you goin' with those beads around your neck?
Hey Punk, where you goin' with those beads around your neck?

I'm goin' to the shrink so he can help me be a nervous wreck . .
.

[deutsey]

49. During his lecture tour in the mid-'80s

Zappa emphasized the stupidity of mindlessly conforming to anything pre-determined or "ready-made" (i.e., like the hippie fad, but he also cited the military when I met him).

The main point I remember from the talk I had with him before his lecture was that he advocated that all of us as individuals make a "quantum leap", as he called it, into crafting our own sense of identity.

[zulchzulu]

40. Frank was.....Frank... he's not pigeon-holeable...

If you ever listened to his stuff or read anything about him, "right wing" would be about the farthest thing you'd assess him as.

Was he a Libertarian? Um...he was for the Bill of Rights and the Constitution.

Was he "sexist"? Sheesh...I guess to some that don't get his brand of multiple-layered paradigms of paradoxes about our society and the music industry in general...

[deutsey]

48. I agree about what you say about Zappa and the right-wing

Also about libertarianism.

However, I do find some of his lyrics sexist (all the while understanding what you're saying here).

The older I get, the more I continue to marvel at his music and cringe at a lot of his lyrics.

[LoZoccolo]

44. He claimed durring his first appearance on /Crossfire/ that he was a conservative.

He says this just a little bit past 3:15 here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ISil7IHzxc

That having been said, there are many flavors and degrees of right-wing, which is probably why he'd have a conflict with the convervative panelist and moderator.

[Strawman]

47. I think he flirted with libertaran economics

He was skeptical of the capacity of government to truly help without being corrupt. He was skeptical of unions, particularly in practice. I don't think that skepticism is entirely unhealthy.

But his widow is a big time Dem donor. I suspect that Frank might have come to the conclusion (if he hadn't in fact already) that the government (and unions) needed to check the failures of the market place, no matter how imperfect either might be in practice.

[redqueen]

50. Why should we care?

His music was good, his lyrics less so.

As for his politics... eh. He was rich, there ya go.

[deutsey]

63. Well, now that you put it that way, I don't know why we should care.

As Zappa himself once observed: "Who gives a fuck anyway?"

:silly:

[edbermac]

64. Probably a libertarian.

He was against censorship and the religious right on one hand, on the other hand if you listen to his album We're Only In It For The Money, he was pretty scornful of the 60's left wing hippies.

Still love ya, Frankie.

[deutsey]

65. Me too

Nice picture of him, btw.