Can ANYbody 'splain "Goth" to me?

[UTUSN]

I'm an old fogey. I was at this place, and this "music" (which I've got to amit sounded appealing in a weird sort of way) was playing. And yet

So then all of these persons troop in, all dressed in BLACK T-shirts.

They looked like they didn't do chemical-abuse. Yet, they all STOOD LIKE ASPERIGUS STALKS in front of the band, like STALKS.

What does it MEAN???????????!!1

[graywarrior]

1. EMO Goth. Now that's confusing.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

50. Yeah, but...

You gotta admit the mofo got him some pipes.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

2. It's a phase kids go through.

Usually in their teens. They put in black clothes, act angsty, freak out prudes. They were around when you were a kid too, they just flew under the radar and weren't called "goths."

[UTUSN]

4. Looked sort of ---------A/sexual, sort of NEUTERED, sort of STERILE n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

8. Yeah.

There's sort of an androgynous phase that often coincides with the goth phase too.

[Der Blaue Engel]

23. It's not a phase for all of us

:hi:

[stuntcat]

74. nope not a phase..

I hate that trendy stuff kids do as much as anyone but I can't deny what I've felt my whole life. I read about plagues and serial killers and watch horrer movies but it's MY life, I don't care if people think it's dumb.

I wouldn't claim "goth", it's turned into something silly, but I've seen a few "goth" kiddies though and I can't help thinking they look precious! :+

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

3. It means you pass the doobie to the left.

Ah, crap. Wrong generation gap again.

[Critters2]

77. LOL!!! nt

[Steepler0t]

5. I would check this BBC clip out

Why Goth won't Die
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=5612600162054230967

about one of the longest-running and strongest music related lifestyles.

As far as what it is? It is something individual to everyone I have found over the years, but mainly comes down to a shared love of the theeatrical macabre.

Individualism, with anti-racist -anti-sexist aspect from the punk days meets spooky fun.

And I disagree about a phase, some folks are going through a phase, but you cannot label most of them real goths as you may be confusing metal/pop emo trends that come and go, I know many goths now over 40 and still going strong.

Real goth is pretty much a extension of old punk ethos with an odd statement about our society with all the black.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

14. Well, sure. Some people never grow out of it.

But of course, there are some people who never grow out of putting on spock ears and going to comic book conventions and...

... oh, shit. Now I've done it.

:hide:

[Steepler0t]

17. Nah, I can understand the confusion with all the trends

But I can tell you that I have heard countless times over the years that these folks have always felt compelled to seek out "the darker side" of life and history their whole lives.

I really wouldn't know how to explain if you don't understand but it is a very long running subculture, I am sure there have always been "goth" types in society.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

21. Sure, like I said it goes way back.

They just weren't called Goths.

There've been Goths at least as long as there've been teenagers.

[Mojorabbit]

41. Edgar Allen Poe? n/t

[Der Blaue Engel]

26. Darn it, you've pegged me yet again

:blush:

There is, in fact, some crossover in those two groups. You ain't seen nothin' 'til you've seen the annual DragonCon in Atlanta. :D

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

28. LOL

Geez, what else are you into. Line dancing?

:P

[Der Blaue Engel]

40. Dear god, no!

:D

But like many of the goths I know, in addition to being a SciFi/Fantasy geek, I am bisexual, polyamorous, pagan, and in a BDSM relationship. :)

It's (wait for it) SAN FRANCISCO VALUES! Phase One of our Evil Agenda is now complete. :evilgrin:

[TlalocW]

59. Oh, man, I'd love to see that...

And believe me, I've seen all kinds of people from different cultures dancing or trying to dance the dances of other cultures - Asian Indians dancing Latin, Latinos teaching line dancers to Salsa, cowboys and cowgirls dancing to hip-hop... etc.

I think if I could see some Goths line dancing to the Boot Scoot Boogie or the Electric Slide, I could die a happy man.

And for an encore, they would have to do the Macarena.

TlalocW

[New Earth]

56. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

did you go to that in 2006? i wanted to go so bad :( omg you probably a like a lot of the same bands as me :o

[Der Blaue Engel]

66. I went in 2003 and 2004

I'd love to go again, but money keeps being an object. My musical tastes are kind of stuck in the 80s, but I'm sure there are some in common. I picked up a CruxShadows CD while I was there if that counts. :D

[New Earth]

67. yeah that is who i'm referring to

they are coming to my area on Valentine's day for a show, so I can finally see them live :D
what about Clan of Xymox? do you like them? i just finally started giving them a chance and they are soooooooooooo effing good :o

[UncleSepp]

54. I put on Spock ears and go to the Goth club. It's more fun.

n/t

[NashVegas]

22. I Think Part of the Reason Goth Is Still Around and Easily Identifiable

Is that it has/had its boundaries staked out so well.

Unlike alternative, which was such a huge umbrella that it got overrun by the hype of one of it's spokes (grunge).

[unpossibles]

79. well, this kind of dates me a little, but when I was younger goth was part of that same

umbrella. Pretty much all of the alternative kids, punks, goths, skins, goths, etc. all went to the same bars and the circles more or less overlapped quite a bit, and not always very clearly. This was pre-grunge, btw.

[SemperEadem]

68. I saw something on one of the 'gracious living' channels

where there was a goth wedding--the bride wore black, the groom wore eyeliner. Seems it's a lifestyle and not a phase to some.

[Ian David]

6. There are all kinds of Goth... Perky Goth, Neon Goth, Candy Goth...

Start with The Urban Dictionary to waste about thirty minutes of your life that you'll never get back...

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=goth

[joe_sixpack]

24. Visi-Goth?

N/T

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

52. Eddie? EDDIE??!!

Eddie ain't GOTH! Eddie is...well, he's just Eddie.

[Left Is Write]

75. Perky, Neon, and Candy Goth? Those sound like oxymorons.

[SmellsLikeDeanSpirit]

7. Goths were more common in the late 90's/early 00's, but lately emo is the craze.

Equally as dumb.

[Horse with no Name]

31. My daughter explained it to me

Emos are Goths who like to hurt themselves.:crazy:

[Left Is Write]

76. Emo's been around a few years also.

[skipos]

9. The funny thing about the goth thing is

it is more about the look than the music. The Cure, My Chemical Romance, the Cocteau Twins, etc all appeal to gothy types, but have nothing in common musically.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

10. If you have to explain it, you

can't understand.

Or so my daughter's goth friends tell me.

harmless fashion shit

[tkmorris]

64. Your daughter's friends have a point

But that is merely because the attempt to explain something involves a measure of examination of it, and it simply cannot stand up to the scrutiny. It makes no sense, and therefore it cannot be explained. There are "rules", but they are arbitrary and subject to change. There is a philosophy, but it cannot be defended on it's merits.

When you get right down to it, it's just groups of kids doing what they have always done. Rejecting accepted cultural norms, yet in doing so forming a subculture of their own that is if anything less useful than those they reject. They don't want to be like "us", yet they cannot bear to be without peers, so they adapt a lifestyle which they share with each other but which at the same time is as different as possible from that they reject. Best of both worlds.

Frankly I don't care for them (I guess that probably shows). Rejecting accepted cultural norms is an idea I can truly get behind, but doing so only to join a smaller version of like minded clones is cowardice to me. If they REALLY want to set themselves apart they should invent themselves in whatever manner they can imagine, rather than follow the semi-strict template put forth by Goths.

The Emo kids are even worse. They are like whining Goths, desperate for attention but unable to accept that they could possibly want something so HUMAN. I always repress my urges to just slap some sense into people I meet that desperately seem to need it, but if I ever do let go of my self control it is very likely to be some gloomy sardonic Emo kid.

[trumad]

11. Wikipedia

The goth subculture is a contemporary subculture prevalent in many countries. It began in the United Kingdom during the late 1970s to early 1980s in the gothic rock scene, an offshoot of the post-punk genre. The goth subculture has survived much longer than others of the same era. Its imagery and cultural proclivities indicate influences from nineteenth century Gothic literature, mainly through horror movies. The goth subculture has associated gothic tastes in music and fashion. Gothic music encompasses a number of different styles. Common to all is a tendency towards a “dark” sound and outlook. Styles of dress within the subculture range from death rock, punk, androgynous, some Renaissance and Victorian

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goth

[nealmhughes]

12. Go to You Tube, download Bauhaus "Bela Lugosi's Dead" from the

soundtrack of The Hunger and then watch it several times. Turn off all your lights and dress as if you were a character out of a Poe novella.

Think of Beaudelaire or drinking absinthe in Paris or New Orleans by candlelight in 1850 or so...Put on white makeup and black eyeliner. Go out then, feeling miserable, and give yourself a kewl Gothname like "Lord Charon" or "Mlle. X". Have fun. You will need cigarettes and try not to be too "friendly" to the regulars. Dance with your head down. If you want to be hardcore, bring a fountain pen and a small leatherbound journal and write French romantic verse in it at the bar, topic: despair or futility.

Enjoy!

And remember: "Standing on a beach with a gun in my hand, staring at the sea, staring at the sand..."

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

13. Yeah. Lather, rinse, repeat

[KittyWampus]

47. the perfect description of Goth aesthetic, really.

[Selatius]

15. Goth depends on a lot of things, but I generally see 2 camps of them

Those who live the lifestyle and then those who simply wear the clothes but could care less about lifestyle.

Most people generally fall into the latter group, so there's nothing to explain there; it's just a fashion statement.

Then there are those who believe in the lifestyle. What is it? It's hard to define, but some I've met in the past coincidentally were Wiccans. Now, that doesn't mean all Wiccans dress like that, but this indicates to me Goths are generally, but not always, more open-minded about ideas than perhaps other groups. Several others were homosexual or bisexual, and I live here in Mississippi, a state that banned gay marriage as well as civil unions. Others were social hermits or outcasts. I guess an environment of persecution leads one to being more open minded to alternative ideas that don't exist in the dominant environment that persecutes you.

This is just my take on it though. It shouldn't be considered authoritative by any stretch of the imagination.

[Steepler0t]

25. Well put

As a 20+ year "Veteran Goth" I think this is pretty accurate.

One thing that almost all Goths have in common are they are very liberal educated open-minded folks. (The punk roots)

I sometimes wonder if we are mourning the ills of this world being more aware and well read and aware of how cruel modern society can be, -it is in reality a very dark world we live in.

[Puregonzo1188]

42. Actually I know someone who is a goth

and very, very conservative. I sort of found it strange.

[nam78_two]

30. Well put-I know a lot of goths who don't even "look goth".nt

[UTUSN]

33. Thanks n/t

[UTUSN]

44. These I saw also had an UPSCALE/econmic aspect n/t

[alfredo]

16. Old horror movies, goulishness, dark heavy metal, death metal

and darkness.

The Goths I know are also anarchist, or tend in that direction. Most are not as weird as they look, some are. The trick is to find the ones who are sane and are just having fun.

[Steepler0t]

34. Don't mean to nitpick

It is common to confuse Death Metal with Death Rock, but they have always been two separate scenes one punk one metal.

Punk was always a rejection of metal and its vain and shallowness, metal also is not anti-homophobic, anti-racist, and anti-sexist with actually the opposite being true in a lot of cases.

There are cases of crossovers but they are the exception not the rule and usually not long lived.

[alfredo]

53. thanks.

[New Earth]

57. um...

not quite...

[UTUSN]

18. I'm open to a lot of crap, why wouldn't I be, I'm a Dem n/t`

[progdonkey]

19. some South Park clips that parody goth kids...

Sometimes the best way to explain something is to show a good parody of it.

"If you want to be a non-conformist, all you have to do is dress the same as us and listen to all the same music we do."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T78hConNWTo

The character Butters, who always gets the short end of the stick, explains his view of Goths.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kdm2FoPGuw

Goth kids at the talent show:

"No, no, no, not gonna be in your talent show." "We showed them!" "Yeah, I hope we win."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78UEz3eQrpU&NR]

And lastly, the goth kids explain how you dance "goth."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAY7JLFW3mE

:rofl:

[Gregorian]

20. Gothic

One of my favorite shows is on WMBR on Monday at 8pm Eastern. It's called Bats in the Bellfrey. Her opening music is Gothic. Then she'll play bands such as the ones already mentioned in this thread. Drone. Melancholy. But it stems, basically, from Gothic. Thus the appearances of some of the enthusiasts. I happen to look more like a stock broker. I think it was my attempt to escape the drug war unnoticed. It worked.

But I have discovered that Goth has a different attitude in Britain. I haven't been able to totally understand it. But it seems to be much more depraved, or something. Desparate.

I have never understood the whole fan scene revolving around Goth. I am only interested in the musical genre.


Edit- Huh, I just realized my user name could be confused with Gregorian chants. But it's actually a mixture of my first and last name that I was called by when I was a roofer many years ago. Like anyone really gives a rat's ass. :)

[Mabus]

27. As one old fogey to another, it's like this

Every generation has its WOBs and BOWs.

WOBs are Wearers of Black. In my day, they wore black t-shirts and jean jackets (usually Levi's). They hung out on the periphery and liked to be seen as antiestablishmentary types.

BOWs are, well Bowheads. They're pretty shallow types. They grow up to be like movie stereotypes of spoiled, self-centered, me-first people. Female BOWs are usually just called Bowheads because they wear silly things in their hair like bows. Male BOWs like to think of themselves as Beamerboys, i.e., they want to drive BMWs.

WOBs hang out in libraries, movie theaters and other buildings. BOWs like to hang out in the parking lots, where they can be seen (and in their minds, adored).

WOBs are introspective. BOWs can't stop talking (usually about themselves) enough to see what's going on around them.

Anyway, that's my take. :hi:

[UTUSN]

36. Whatever these were, they were SCRAWNY, PROSPEROUS

[Mabus]

43. those are the anarchists

Every once in a while we get an "anarchist" group that will show up and generally be disruptive. This isn't the local group but an imported one. I think they are spies. They drive up in late model SUVs and wear expensive, dark-colored clothing. They also use new sheets for protests signs/banners. The real anarchists' signs are made with used sheets purchased from the thrift stores.

[Taverner]

29. Simple: "The world is a funeral; dress for the occasion"

At least that's the only core ethos to the movement.

[NashVegas]

32. There's Goth Fashion and Goth Music

And they aren't necessarily the same.

About the only thing Goth bands of the 1980s had in common with Goth fans was the eyeliner and black lipstick.

The musicians didn't/don't dress nearly as done-up as the fans.

[OneGrassRoot]

35. What you all said....lol

I've gotta be Chatty Cathy and jump in. I'm a 43-year-old single mom of a 13-year-old girl who is trending toward this "goth" thing ever since taking her to a My Chemical Romance concert over a month ago (what a trip THAT was!). First, the band was actually really good, but it was in a venue where there were no seats (what?!!!!! I can't believe I stood for four hours...ughhhh). And the people there were truly of all ages, races, shapes and sizes. That was pretty cool to me. Yet there was definitely this "goth" look that was prevalent. I've never really understood it and feel, as many of you have said, that it's a form of rebellion. An "in your face" thing to shock others. My daughter also has this fascination with vampires which seems to come with the territory, too.

I've talked with my daughter about it, and my opinion is that I'd prefer people stand FOR something rather act/look a certain way as a means of rebelling against something. Embracing a look and lifestyle simply to shock others seems rather empty unless there's truly something about the look/lifestyle that resonates with you.

That said, I'm really into the sound of bands like My Chem now. All in all, even after standing for four hours being jostled in mosh pits, it was a good experience for both of us (especially since I'm still living in the 80's music...lol). :headbang:

[UTUSN]

46. Thanks for a thoughtful response.

A couple of years ago (this topic has been tickling me that long)

this female kid was working at WalMart, all made-up in black, spiky black everything, working at the JEWELRY counter.

I bought a watch. She started to "enforce the rules." (About my going through the check-out lanes. Then she BROKE THE RULES, saying I could pay any-the-whuck-I wanted to.

Is THAT it?????

[RB TexLa]

37. Southpark does a good job of providing insight into today's kids

they have an episode on goths.

[bling bling]

55. There's a Southpark episode that also explains how to Goth dance.

'Goth kids dance to express pain and suffering. The only cool way to dance is to keep your hands at your sides and your eyes looking at the ground. Then every three seconds you take a drag from your cigarette.' -- Quoted from that episode where the SP kids got "served".

I don't care what anybody else thinks, South Park rocks.

[greendog]

38. The Goth look started in 1969...

...with Nico's "Marble Index".



Video of Nico performing "Frozen Warnings".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvOsGfYjRtU&mode=related&search=

[mitchum]

70. Good call!

That is most likely the first appearance of "the look" in a pop music context (I call it all "pop music")

Probably the first 20th century pop culture example is Conrad Veidt's appearance in "The Cabinet of Doctor Caligari"

[XemaSab]

78. Edgar Allen Poe really codified a lot of it though

Loving dead girls. Insomnia. Opium. Darkness.

on edit: tuberculosis. can't forget that.

[KittyWampus]

71. Very Interesting!

[Donnachaidh]

39. vampire punk

Basically. Goes from Eddie Munster *cute* to Rob Zombie-esque extra for house of a thousand corpses. It's been around for years. Sixth graders in my kid's school showed up head-to-toe goth, and promptly got sent home to change. I suspect the white pancake makeup scared the cafeteria ladies. :evilgrin:

[Dastard Stepchild]

45. It's just a bit of fun...

I was a gothish punk throughout my high school years and still have many friends that are. They have a wonderful flair for the theatrical, sure, but are quite delightful people. Although the younger ones tend to take it very seriously (e.g. "You'll never comprehend the depths of my darkness"), most that age into their gothiness do it with a bit of a smirk and a nod towards the presentation of it all. That's been my experience at the very least. :)

[omega minimo]

48. It might help if you think of it as

WOODSTALK :evilgrin:


"What does it MEAN??????????!!1"

[liberalEd]

49. It means you're grown up

Many (really, many) years ago I went to a mall (something I hardly ever do) and at one point a group of young people walked by. They were dressed really strange and had really weird hairdos.

At that moment, as I was amazed by the look, I realized I had grown up. Young people looked weird to me. And I sort of understood the previous generation's dismay at what we did when mine was young.

[derby378]

51. Basically, start with Bauhaus and work your way up to the modern vampire bands

I like some gothic stuff, but not enough to wear fake fangs and play mind games with club kids. :evilgrin:

[unpossibles]

81. close, but The Damned had them beat by a couple of years.

:)

[New Earth]

58. i'll tell you one thing

i used to have some wrong perception of them/it, whatever, until i found my current favorite band and was surrounded by them all the time. i kind of picked up on some of the style, but not all of it. i'll tell you this much, all the genres that fall under or coincide with 'goth music' is some of the best music i've ever heard in my life, and i wish i had heard it sooner :o
it is nothing like death metal or any of the crap someone else mentioned in this thread.

the one thing i hate the most is, that stereotype that they are all depressed and dark, worship the devil, etc.
they are about the opposite, the majority that i know who might fall under this 'category' are very nice, spiritual, liberal, very very cool.

the name really means nothing (anymore). it's just a label.

[TlalocW]

60. Look for some late 1990s Saturday Night Lives on YouTube

Specifically, "Goth Talk," where you'll meet Circe Nightshade and Azrael Abyss.

TlalocW

[porphyrian]

61. It's just another form of youth rebellion against their parents and the status quo.

You aren't supposed to understand it. I could get into what they like, what they think it means, it's history as a movement, etc., but you really only need to know that it pisses off the right people for them and they get to feel like non-conformists by being the same together.

[Marr]

62. Emos make Goths look like Punks.

And that's saying something.

Meh, I have some good goth friends- most left it behind in their teens, but several are still goths at 34 or so. They're fun.

[sammythecat]

63. I can't explain Goth. I'm not one

and I don't know any. I only know OF it. I like it. I'm glad they're here and more power to 'em.

[Withywindle]

65. One thing you gotta understand

is that Goth as a music/fashion aesthetic is itself way older than the kids you saw. As has been pointed out, the movement if you can call it that really started in the UK in the late 1970s/early 80s. It was one of the many subcultures of the punk movement. There are second-generation goths now.

I was a goth 20 years ago. Still have affinity for it, still love the music...oh, alright, I admit, I still dye my hair! The poster who said that it's connected to dark Romantic literature, classic horror movies, absinthe, graveyards, etcetera - totally right-on. Think Poe and Baudelaire and classic ghost and vampire stories. Now translate that to a subculture of rock music and fashion.

Can't speak for goths who are teenagers today, but I don't know if that's much different. Main difference I see is there's a lot more hot pink. Back in the day, we wouldn't be caught dead (or undead) in anything but black, stark white, or dark velvet jewel tones like blood red....

I don't think it's any weirder than people who are into the rockabilly subculture hardcore, or hip-hop, or Deadheads who still dress like 60s hippies, or any sort of grouping like that with its own sort of overall aesthetic.

[Bridget Burke]

80. Well, I wanted to be a Beat....

Long hair, black clothes, pierced ears. Too bad I was a bit chubby & had curly hair; so I did the "Hippie" thing that was coming in. Now I'm a grown up--who still wears a bit of eyeliner & puts henna on her hair. Gosh, the "Bohemian" look was in last year--I was prepared!

The influences do go 'way back. Poe, "Gothick" literature, the Decadents, the Symbolists & some of the Surrealists.

Here's an interesting site: www.blackphoenixalchemylab.com/welcome.html

If I had a kid, I'd be more concerned if she was a Britney clone.

[New Earth]

69. i don't know that much about the old school stuff

because i just recently started getting into the music genres that are 'associated' with 'goth' stuff....

but i must say, did you ever think there would be goths who listen to techno? they do! actually it's not exactly techno, it's got actual vocals over it and the lyrics are really meaningful, deep, etc., rather than the crap you hear in clubs in the U.S. the band in my sig below is like that - it's kind of a heavy, electronic music with some orchestration, with very very very good lyrics in the vocals. it's actually become my favorite kind of music, i have been looking for something like this forever. the band itself isn't 'goth' but a lot of their fans are. i really hate what people say about 'goth' people, it's mostly just totally untrue.

[siouxsiecreamcheese]

83. vnv nation is really good.

The whole "industrial techno" sound is my favorite along with gothy music .. you should also check out Assemblage 23.. kinda the same sounding music as vnv nation..

[LanternWaste]

72. It's a style that Stevie Nicks...

It's a style that Stevie Nicks (and only Stevie Nicks) was ever able to pull off succesfully w/o looking like a lemming.

:evilgrin:


Disclaimer-- I'm a middle-aged fogey and know as much about it as you.

[aikoaiko]

73. I found my appreciation of goth grew after viewing suicidegirls.com

:)

[otherlander]

82. Now, me...

I can't judge a counterculture by its silly imitators. And I tend to think that there's a real art of embracing what most people see as ugly and turning it into a style. And I can see why people want to set themselves apart from mainstream culture, which tends to be superficial, cruel, and judgemental. But what the fuck do I know?