A question to the Ladies: Did you have Heather-like- tendencies in Junior High school?

[trumad]

I have a 12 year old daughter who seems to be creeping towards Heatherism. I say creeping because she's got a ways to go and I think that with her parents guidance, she won't go there.

Man it's tough though.... The pressure to be cool and to hang with the cool crowd can be a powerful force in a teenagers life. PLUS--- 24x7 Paris, Britney and Nicolle ain't helping much.

The other day I picked her up early from school and we drove by some of her classmates. She yelled a hello to them as we drove by and they jumped up and enthusiastically yelled hello back. She then turned to me and said, see Daddy, I'm popular. I told her that although I'm delighted she has many friends,it ain't all about being popular and that it should not be her goal in life. I didn't go any further because I wanted her Mom to talk to her about it. Her Mom graduated High school in the early 80's and knows a bit about Heather like symptoms.

Anyway---I was wondering how you all got through those crazy years?

[no_hypocrisy]

1. I held my breath and my nose, and hoped it was temporary insanity

on the part of my female compatriots, some of whom I had known since kindergarten.

The good news is that a lot of them returned to "baseline" after graduation. Many of them were friendly and conversational at my 10th, 20th, and 30th high school reunions.

[trumad]

3. There's nothing sadder than seeing a bunch of Heathers

at your 20th reunion. Actually it's kind of funny.

[MsKandice01]

2. I was a nerd in those days...

I wasn't ridiculed for it though, just didn't have any friends. The only friends I had were the neighborhood kids I grew up with and a handful of friends from elementary school.

[BlackVelvet04]

4. Who is

Heather?

I don't have children so I don't know what you are referring to.

[trumad]

6. Here ya go.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heathers

[BlackVelvet04]

12. Thanks....

I thought it must be something like that. I don't go to movies very often.

No, I wasn't a Heather. I was a rebel. I was a cheerleader for one year and thought it was stupid and I hated it. Jumping up and down and screaming just wasn't for me.

I had one close friend in high school and that was it. I listened to Elton John before anyone else knew who he was....."Tumbleweed Connection." I listened to Cat Stevens, Carol King, Janis Joplin while "the others" were into much more mainstream stuff. I was probably one of my high schools first hippies.

I wasn't popular because I truly didn't want to be. I didn't date anyone at my school and turned down prom invitations because my best friend didn't get one.

[zappa_parappa]

46. I just wanted to point out that Tumbleweed Connection...

is one of the greatests albums ever. You win 1 million cool points from me for mentioning it.

[hlthe2b]

13. Uggh... I sometimes see these types banding together in Malls

There just to ridicule and demean anyone who walks by. Some mall managers (my colleague's husband is one) have become clued into the phenomenon and its impact on other vulnerable kids (as well as the mega annoyance factor to adults) and started watching for this and breaking up the groups (or kicking them out). Kudos to them, I say.

[Kahuna]

5. Never. I was never the type of child to be mean to other kids..

In fact, I always befriended the unpopular kids and stuck up for those who were picked on. It was just my nature.

[trumad]

9. And that's what we are teaching are young daughter...

always look out for the underdog and stick up for them.

[salin]

7. have her hang out

in the Lounge, from time to time folks make heathers comparisons there ;-) (hey the lounge disses gd.... turnabout and all that)

Seriously, when I was in highschool I was a border kid - accepted by and sorta in the "in crowd" but also in the prof-brad crowd (U town) - some of the in crowd was just mean - and by ninth grade I recognized that behavior and avoided those individuals most frequently guilty of it - never mean to them, always polite but certainly never sought out their company - and we sorta coexisted on different sides of the "in crowd". Mutual friends, but not friends mutually. If she can watch and recognize when behavior of the cool kids borders on cruelty, then probably she can distinguish which of the 'cool kids' are more 'cool' to HER and thus the ones to hang more closely with. Maybe watch as a family some old "Square Pegs" episodes (surely that is on DVD) or more recently the campy/satirical and hilarious "Popular" . Would open the door to some discussions that don't have to get personal (as in reminiscing about kids when we were in school, and at somepoint she will probably recognize and tell you about similar stories - but hers will be current).

Btw, :hi:

[trumad]

Hi back--- and thanks.

BTW: I saw a post from Tom_Paine yesterday... It always warms my heart to see post from DUers of past.

[sam sarrha]

8. when Barbi Dolls were introduced into Africa the first Anorexia apeared in areas where people were

starving to death already..

[Vanje]

10. I had one best friend

so I didnt need to care what anyone else thought of me.
That, my friends, is freedom!
Whether school girl is an alienated plaid flannel dyke, as I was , or a brainy girl, or a chubby girl, or a bookworm, or a jock......she could do no better than to have a true best friend.

[tridim]

11. I knew there was trouble when new puppies named 'Paris' started showing up..

all over the neighborhood. In every case there was also a 8-12 year old girl in the family.

Is she really that much of an idol? I think the parents need to put a stop to the Paris and Britney worship, because it's seriously damaging their kids.

[trumad]

14. My daughter to her credit doesn't like Paris or Nicolle

or Britany... She use to like Lindsay Lohan when she was younger but is annoyed with her constant sopa opera life.

She loves Reese Witherspoon---and so do I. ;-)

[FedUpWithIt All]

15. Oh, God no...

But i have three daughters...

My oldest is the anti-heather. She begged for a nose pierce (i relented at 14) and has a different color hair ever few months. She cannot stand to be thought of as popular. :::whispers::: this just makes her a bit more interesting to her peers. Her best friends include two wheelchair bound girls, an openly homosexual boy, a football player (he is for those days she is feeling cranky, as all they seem to do is argue politics)and a japanese boy who is a tech genius.

My middle daughter has been a heather since the day she was born...the good the bad and the moody. She is ALL about the attention and the "groups". I worry sometimes because i know how they can be. She is in 4th grade and has recently found that the "popularity game" has two sides. She came home the other day crying. In a state of shocked indignation she told me that one of her friends had lied about her. We had a very important little talk about people and how it feels to be on the receiving end. And it begins. :::sigh:::

My baby is seven. She is one to make the boys laugh in library quiet time by making armpit farting noises. She is quite a well liked kid in school but tends to take it in stride. Hard to say at this point but i think she is a touch to empathetic to go the heather route.

All i know is that the next decade or so is going to be a wild ride.

[trumad]

16. WOW--LOL

Good luck---you've got your hands full.

[FedUpWithIt All]

19. LOL, thank you...

It certainly is fun on the weekends and in the summer when they are all home from school. Three very distinct personalities all sharing the same space...I'm sure you can imagine. :crazy:

[youthere]

44. My baby is seven and arm-pit farts are her favorite pasttime!

It drives her brother crazy because she is better at it than him.

[Speck Tater]

17. Don't worry.

My daughters and grand daughters got through that faze just fine. For them it was very brief with no lasting side effects.

[mahatmakanejeeves]

18. Oh, I thought you meant "Heather,"

as in Heather Poe, Mary Cheney's ... well, they live in Virginia, so the most they can claim is that they know each other. Anything more than that is illegal.

Never mind.

[Corgigal]

20. I never was

but my 16 year old daughter is. I orginally thought being popular would open so many doors for her. Yeah it did, but none of them the doors I thought would open. I worried that I could lose her to the "popular" crowd. My husband and I talked about it, this child was an honor student and had so much going for her then she hit the wall of 8th grade. I gave her 2 more grades to see if she could pull herself out of it and possibly see that her choice of friends weren't the best choice for her. She then asked to be taken out of the local High School.

We did that, we took money out of the house but we found the right school. Her lowest grade now is a 93, she finally passed algebra and was given a scholarship to attend this school next year. Which I'm grateful for because we couldn't afford this school two years in a row. It's a boarding school two states away but we have all adapted. She just flew home for Christmas last night. Her new nickname at the high school is nerd. That blew my little mind away.

I'm so happy we all made the hard choices. Her options in life are still available to her.

[devilgrrl]

21. No. But I had to put up with alot of "Heathers"

friggin' bitches. :nuke:

[Annces]

22. Those Heather tendencies seem to be a kind of survival of the fittest

It is good practice for some women I think, who go on into competitive fields or who have personalities where they need to be number 1.

Also for a lot of girls, other girls are just companions to have when hunting down boys.

I thought James Spader played a great male version of a Heather in that movie "Pretty in Pink". Now he plays a lunatic lawyer, and you don't see him flaunting his Heather side anymore.

[Arugula Latte]

23. I have a first grader and I do worry about that with her down the road.

I'm not saying this to brag, but she is the kind of kid who has it all, just about. Almost everything comes easily for her -- friends, reading, writing, math, art -- plus she has athletic ability (but is not particularly interested in sports now). She's beautiful and according to her teacher is well-liked. I do hope she'll use her luck for good and not evil. We'll work hard on having her see things from the other perspectives of kids who have to struggle socially and other ways...We'll see. *crosses fingers*

[pnwmom]

24. Prevention should begin early, I think. It all starts in elementary school.

When my daughter was in 2nd grade it began -- being left off birthday party invitation lists, etc. She was not popular but was doing fine -- she had a best friend -- and I wanted it to stay that way.

I told her about some things that happened to me when I was in elementary and middle school. I said that, unfortunately, kids can do a lot of mean and stupid things because they are still LEARNING how to be friends with each other. (Not just learning reading and math.) And I told her things I wish I had been told when I was her age.

Like -- however popular you are when you are a kid has nothing to do with how happy you are in the long run (if you're being picked on now, it won't always be that way.)

Like -- having one or two good friends is plenty.

And, since one of the hardest parts for me was that it seemed that my parents thought I wasn't popular enough, I also told her that -- from my point of view -- I would never care if one of my children were popular, because I wasn't, and I ended up with a wonderful husband and family. That you can't control other children's behavior, and some of them are mean because they are learning -- and you never can tell why they pick on some kids and not on others, it has nothing to do with the victim.

That the only thing I WOULD care about is that I wouldn't want my own children to be mean to any of the others. That would make me feel bad, because I knew how it felt to be one of those kids who got picked on.

[pansypoo53219]

25. parochial HS, ;low heather count

but i was sooo out of the in crowd. i was an outsider from the beginning. i just tried to bear it. i wish i had gone to a public school. was smart too. and artsy. only class i ever cheated in was religion. HA!
and i did that well too. No.2 pencils have lots of writing room.

i try and block out those years.

[Chovexani]

26. No, I was tormented by the Heathers

Think Dawn Weiner in Welcome to the Dollhouse.

I didn't really "get through it", either, I just postponed the inevitable breakdown until high school.

[BarenakedLady]

27. I was an enigma

While I was a cheerleader (for a couple of years), I wasn't overly popular. I hung out with the art crowd. For awhile I was even in the computer club (although in all fairness it was for a boy. :evilgrin:) I was in the ski club, with the rich kids (though I wasn't). I never really fit into one category. No one hated me, or made my life miserable...well once, until I stood up for myself and that was the end of that. I always had one or two really good friends that I stuck with.

[davsand]

28. Trumad, we are dealing with it too!

Material Girl is only in 4th grade and we've had it going on now for about three years. One of her classmates has a Mom who IS still a Heather, and her kid is manifesting it too. It is enough to make me want to hurl and at times has left me enraged for ALL the kids who have to deal with it.

We've already had to deal with the parties that not everyone got invited to. We've already had the experience of parties where we were on the "B" list and got called at the 11th hour to come. The mom has been confronted about it and says she doesn't CARE.

Fortunately, the other Moms are together in this and we are standing together on the issue. We told that other parent that our kids will not be attending ANY party that excludes somebody. The last time that mom tried to exclude somebody (last summer) we all kept our kids home.

Literally, that parent was wailing and moaning to me about how her kid was not gonna be able to have a birthday party because our kids were not coming. My suggestion was that all she had to do was cut back and invite EVERYONE and then there'd be a party. I got blown off and my kid stayed home along with three others in the group. (Did I mention this conversation happened at CHURCH????)

We've also seen the playground drama of "You can't play with _____ if you want to hang out with me. You have to choose and if you get it wrong I'll never be your friend again."

Material Girl was about ready to melt down with that one because the other kid involved is a nice kid who just doesn't have many pals. She was NOT gonna give that kid up, and I am VERY proud of her for that.

She talked to me about it as it went down and I told her that it was mt opinion that anyone who tries to control you is not a friend.

I also gave her some "Motherly Advice" that probably will leave me burning in hell for all time. I told my nine year old that in any competitive social setting NOT competing is gonna take you a lot further in the long run. Essentially, I advised my kid not to play the game and it will most likely leave her a social outcast for life and me feeling terminally guilty.

I couldn't HELP myself, because I refuse to play that game even in my advanced years. I AM what I am and you can take it or leave it--PERIOD. I choose to raise my kid with the ideal of kindness to others and inclusive behaviors even IF others haven't. Individualism may be part of it all too--I dunno--but it seems to me that our kids have to be shown how to be individuals sometimes.

Good luck to you and your family. This is some ugly shit these kids are dealing with.

Regards,


Laura (The "Loser" Mom!)

[Left Is Write]

29. No. I was one of the tortured in junior high school.

[Lyric]

30. No. I am still traumatized by my public education.

As a mother myself, I find it shocking that *my* parents and teachers were so unconcerned and oblivious to the emotional torture I endured every day. If someone did those things to *my* child, I'd be raising unholy hell at every teacher, parent, and administrator I could find.

I was in the painful position of being the fat girl, the "poor" kid, and the smart kid. I was clinically depressed and contemplating suicide by 7th grade.

Every now and then I run into one of the now-adult kids who made my childhood years so hellish. They're OH-so-nice to me now...laughing it off, talking about how they're sorry they were "such a jerk, but you know how kids are". I'm not a violent person, but man...those times bring me perilously close...

[Kat45]

31. I know what you mean about running into them as adults.

My experience is a bit different, but just as maddening. Nothing is ever said. The person acts totally friendly as if nothing ever happened, as if she had never made my life hell. And what makes me angrier about it is that I have a feeling the person truly has forgotten all about it: her behavior towards me was so insignificant to her, or I was so insignificant to her, that it doesn't even make a blip in her memory. I'm so tempted to bring it up, but I don't because then I would look like the petty one.

[Kat45]

32. I used to wish so bad that I was popular.

I wondered why the cool kids didn't think I was cool; I thought I was cool, and if they only knew me better yada yada yada. I totally related to "Square Pegs." And even at 51, I think it still affects me. The thing that sucked is that the popular kids seemed to have all the fun: they had boyfriends, got to hang out at the local playground drinking and smoking pot on Friday nights--these were the things I wanted to be doing and had no opportunity to do. (I was in the 'smart classes' and all my friends were very straight-laced.) If I had been part of that crowd, at least I would have had fun in high school (instead of having to wait until college), and that might have helped somewhat when my friends fucked me over. Yup, even girls not in the popular group can be mean girls. I was totally fucked over, dropped abruptly for no reason that I could discern, by my two best friends--and none of us were "heathers." And, they recruited some other girls to join them in making my life miserable for the rest of the eighth grade.

[skygazer]

33. Never experienced it myself

But I had a daughter who went through a lot of anguish with that silly shit. She was THE most popular kid in her grade school, she and another girl, and when they got into middle school, they were the leaders of the coolest clique. Right up until she and the other girl had a falling out and the flock decided to stick with the other girl.

My daughter damn near had a nervous breakdown, no exaggeration. It all really made her question who she was and what her life was about - all at the age of 13. I home schooled her for her 8th grade year because she couldn't bear to face the rejection and it actually helped a great deal. She came to realize that a person's value is not based on how many supposed "friends" one has, and that the kind of friends one has in that sort of situation aren't really friends at all. She went back in 9th grade, got close to a few good people and avoided the cliques and bullshit. She's 24 now and very well adjusted and secure in herself but man, those were tough times.

People often don't take the social concerns of teenagers seriously which is a mistake, I think. They may not seem serious to an adult but they're crucially serious to the kid. I have no real advice to offer except to keep trying to instill sensible social values.

I wish you luck on your journey. ;)

[trumad]

34. It is a journey---and thanks for the good luck....

[femmocrat]

35. I was a junior high "Heather"..... sorry.

We had a little clique that we called the "Top Ten." Gawd, we were full of ourselves... but we all went our separate ways in high school. Don't worry, trumad, she will outgrow it. It's just a part of junior high to find one's identity and yet feel like part of a group. I've taught middle school for almost 14 years.... these temporary cliques are here today, gone tomorrow. And they all re-shuffle themselves in high school.

[astral]

36. The ones who were cliquish 'Heathers" will get over it

but the kids that they tormented will get over it a little slower. In my day I was put down by certain of the other kids, and brutally so. The guys, actually; the girls mainly just ignored me which wasn't that painful. But my worst memories are when I was in class and the teachers witnessed it and said nothing. NOTHING. To the boys, to me, to nobody. Why? Because these kids' parents were doctors or local hot-shots of some kind.

My mom wasn't available to me intellectually nor emotionally, so once I tried to tell my father about it. He was nice as heck, he just wasn't capable of believing me. He figured it was just pre-teen hormones and stuff (yep, I was only 12.)

Junior high was the worst time of my life even to this date. I'm sure the hormones and body changes have alot to do with the emotional scars left from those years, but for those of us who were on the receiving end, the scars are very real and have a long-term effect even though we do find out it isn't 'real life' and we do survive and move on.

Maybe it makes us stronger, eh?

[wickerwoman]

37. Not really...

all my close friends in junior high and even senior high were boys.

What I think is helpful is to make sure your daughter mixes with different social sets... I had my school friends, but also my soccer friends and my girlscout friends and my neighborhood friends. So I had a lot of opportunities to reinvent myself. I was pretty popular on the soccer team but an outcast in girlscouts. The experience in latter case stopped me from being "Heatherish" in soccer because I knew what it felt like to be ignored and I made an effort to talk to everyone. And it would be great if your daughter had a chance to hang out with kids who are different ages so she can benefit from the example of more mature friends and also have some sense of responsibility for younger, less developed kids.

So I'd said try to get her interested in some activities that will force her to mix with different kinds of kids and the allure of "cliqueshness" will be lost.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

38. No. I am a language and music geek.

Specifically English and jazz. :crazy:

:P

[DeposeTheBoyKing]

39. More Heathered against than Heathered, I'm afraid

I only got through them because I adored school and concentrated on that. I remember being miserable because I wasn't "popular" and was considered a brain and not one of the "kool kidz." I had my friends and mucked through by participating in as many activities as allowed!

[jrandom421]

40. Our 4 daughters made it through differently

None of my girls were ever into the 'popularity' game and often did a lot to oppose the "heathers".

The oldest used the Tae Kwon Do lessons she's had since she was 4 to beat the living daylights out of a couple. She got pushed and shoved around, so she smacked one in the face with a high side kick and broke her nose and cheek. Another one grabbed her hair, and got a broken wrist and 2 broken ribs for her trouble. Needless to say, the Heathers left her alone after that, and the 3 day suspension was more than worth it.

The second oldest used a very dilute solution of sulfuric acid in squirt gun to dissolve their nylons.

The second youngest got picked on by the 'queen bee' until she got into 3rd year chemistry and used photographic dyes to boobytrap 'queen bee's' fav washcloth and towel. Nothing like having a blue face and red hands that will only wear off to be humiliated.

The youngest just kept on reminding them that her oldest sister is a police sniper, and that the Chief of Police, the County Sherriff, the County Coronor and the County DA all know her mother and owe her favors.

[mwdem]

41. Hell, no!

I switched schools starting jr. high, knew nobody, and was a total geek.

[miss_american_pie]

42. Nope

I was never popular. But she's young. She has a lot of time to ougrow that.

[ceile]

43. I had Veronica tendencies.

I tolerated the Heathers because I had to play sports with them and my mom worked with thier fathers/mothers (all doctors, my mom was an RN). When I tried to stop their teasing of the "poor" girls, I became more ostracised than I already was. But that was fine with me-I then only had to tolerate them on the court, not in the hallways, classrooms or parties. And I found out who my real friends were....

[Taverner]

45. Go out and rent "Heathers"

I think it will be eye opening for her

[Zookeeper]

47. No.

I've just never felt a need to conform or belong. (Sad, isn't it?)

On edit: My friends were all from different groups.

[NewWaveChick1981]

48. No, thank Jeebus.

I was an outsider in junior high and high school. My family had just moved to a small town in NC from Atlanta, and we weren't "in" in NC. Even if we had still lived in Atlanta, I would not have had Heather-ish tendencies. That's just not in my personality.

[Zookeeper]

49. If you are thinking about renting "Heathers"

watch it first yourself. I seem to remember that is was NOT appropriate for a 12 year old. I haven't even rented it for my 14 year old yet.

[Rhythm]

50. i was the chameleon...

I was something of a geek of all trades... JROTC, marching band, drama club, etc... as well as being one of the first few 'punkers' in my high school, and one of only 2 or three "out" queerlings (from 1982-85, in Charlotte NC). I was eventually voted 'most unique senior' in my class, which was our school's not-so-subtle way of saying 'what the f*ck is wrong with you?"

I wore a hot-pink shirt and crossed my eyes for the picture.

Because i seemed to militantly refuse to blend in, I was generally either sought out for humiliation by the 'in crowd', or ignored entirely, though i had my own sub-group of assorted 'misfits' which were something of a surrogate family on campus, because certainly we all looked out for each other like protective siblings. Some of us are still in touch.

A decade after graduation, i had my quiet moment of victory over some of those memories. On the weekend of the 10yr reunion (which i skipped due to apathy), the former captain of the cheerleading squad (who had made my life miserable on numerous occasions) came into the sporting goods store where i was a manager. She was being clung to by several dirty, whiny, small children, and she looked tired and ragged and old...

I wasn't going to say anything to her (it was busy that day, and i had tons of paperwork to do), but she approached me with a huge, happy "Hey! How's you been?!! It's been AGES....", so i couldn't well avoid her. I small-talked for a minute, then begged off to return to my office.

I think i was smiling for the rest of the day...

Oh how the mighty had fallen.