The Cross . . .

[Bullwinkle925]

Icon of Christianity. Displayed in all Christian churches. Usually found on the cover of all Christian bibles. Dangles from key chains, bracelets, necklaces, bookmarks - decals on cars,trucks and SUV's.
Had the person, Christ, been eliminated any other way - say, stoned to death, tossed to the lions, guillotined (if that had been accessible at the time), beheaded by a ceremonial sword, - would these items have been deemed to be the icon for Christianity?? I wonder how they would look dangling from necklaces or on the cover of the Bible?? Luckily, (I guess)the Christian Nation got themselves a pretty good-looking symbol.

Amazing what thoughts race through an idle mind.

:popcorn:

[LuLu550]

1. Richard Pryor (I think...)

did a bit on this years ago. He wanted to know if people would wear little electric chairs if that is how Christ died.

(I could be wrong about it being Pryor, if so please correct me if you remember who it really was.)

[Bullwinkle925]

2. It sounds like that would be something he would say.

The thought hit me last evening as I passed a church in our neighborhood with 3 HUGH crosses in front of it. Was wondering what 3 HUGH guillotines would look like?

[LuLu550]

3. we are a bunch of sickos

here, you know that???

[Bullwinkle925]

4. Indeed.

I don't understand the act of 'glorifying' a symbol of torture - but oh well, to each his own, eh?

[ghostsofgiants]

5. To quote Bill Hicks...

"A lot of Christians wear crosses around their necks. You think when Jesus comes back, he ever wants to see a fucking cross? Kind of like going up to Jackie Onassis with a rifle pendant on, you know."

[Rabrrrrrr]

10. "Just thinking of John, Jackie!

Trying to keep that memory alive".

[SPKrazy]

6. I've Got My Guillotine Dangling From My Neck Now

I think that the cross is somewhat of a misnomer for what Jesus was killed on (if Jesus was in fact killed or existed?)

I am not sure that a cross as we have come to know it is anything like what a person crucified would have been on.


:shrug:

edit:

that said it is a strange notion to glorify that which one believes their "savior" was killed on?

[Oeditpus Rex]

7. There's an old joke

"Why was Jesus crucified instead of hanged?"



But the punch line's a visual, so... :shrug:

[deucemagnet]

8. So, did the symbol of the cross have any magical powers before...

...Jesus was crucified? If not, how did they fend off vampires? :shrug:

[idgiehkt]

14. I believe so

I think in some native american cultures some kind of cross represented the four directions or four corners of the universe. The xtians copted everything else they came across so why not that too.

[deucemagnet]

15. Thanks for your thoughtful answer to a rather silly post!

:hi:

I think horror movies would lose something if vampires couldn't stand the sight of the fish symbol. :silly:

[idgiehkt]

18. I missed it

lol, I do that alot. Anyway, here is the four directions symbol as painted by my favorite poet, Chrystos. This is the cover of my favorite book of hers.



She is Menominee but I don't know if this version the symbol is native to her tribe or is more universal or what the origin is. Apparently what we know as the 'swastika' is found in native american artifacts alot too, it's a version of the cross and I think it's Hindi in origin or even predates the Hindu religion which puts it quite a bit before Christianity.

[hedgehog]

9. It's just one of the accidents of history that a cross happens to be

one of the basic shapes like a circle, star or swastika. I remember in the C.S. Lewis novel That Hideous Strength that a character decides that the cross is what happens when good crosses evil. He is ordered to stamp on a crucifix and can't bring himself to do it even though he considers himself to be an unbeliever.

[Rabrrrrrr]

11. You are, in a number of ways, wrong.

The cross is NOT displayed in all Christian churches.

The majority of Bibles, I would say, do not have crosses on them.

You are, however, correct in that crosses show up in a lot of jewelry, decals, boomarks, and rather a few of what I could call inappropriate places.

And there is no Christian Nation of which you speak.


However, I have also wondered often about what if Jesus had died of other means, if we would have picked up a symbol of that death. I would guess that probably we would not have picked up any other method of execution, and would most likely have stayed with the symbol of the fish. The cross, as an execution device, wasn't just an execution device - it was a device of humiliation and great suffering, far more than any other method of execution, even stoning, and was reserved for especially heinous criminals. The cross doesn't represent just death, but also all the humiliation and bad stuff that goes with crucifixion.

A guillotine, or sword stroke, or stoning, or whatever simply doesn't have the emotional/spiritual component that the cross does.

So I submit that the Christians would have stuck with the fish symbol, and not used the death device as a symbol.

And there is also a very drastic theological difference between a cross and a crucifix: the crucifix focuses solely on the pain and suffering, while the cross focuses mostly on the resurrection (the empty cross).

[Bullwinkle925]

12. Howdy Rabrrrrrr ...

I grew up in the Midwest - right in the proverbial heart of the Bible Belt. I have never been in a church where the cross was not predominantly displayed. Which church or churches elect not to have the cross or crucifix as the religious symbol for them? You have piqued my curiosity. You're correct and I'm incorrect for stating that the cross is usually embossed on Bibles - I'm remembering the little white one I was given by my church upon baptism and it had a gold embossed cross on it.
I understand the cross as having been used to humiliate as well as torture a person as he/she is dying. For the cross to have become an icon in religion seems to be on the macabre side to me.
That is also how I feel about the use of 'relics'. Seems to be particularly grisly in using human remains as sanctified objects.
But, that's just me.

[Left Is Write]

19. It's not macabre, because the cross doesn't symbolize death...

It symbolizes redemption from death.

[Bullwinkle925]

20. I don't ever think I can get my brain past the death scene on the

cross, or crucifix.

edited for typo

[Left Is Write]

21. I understand that.

I'm just trying to present the point of view of those who do see the cross as a symbol of hope and not death.

[Bullwinkle925]

22. Hope because, even though Christ was crucified on the cross,

he still arose from his grave a couple of days later?

[Left Is Write]

23. Hope because Christ's sacrifice was for the redemption of man.

And yes, the resurrection is symbolic of that hope.

[Bullwinkle925]

24. That's a conundrum. And another one I'll never be able to

rationalize through. It's extremely difficult for me to understand complete and utter faith.

[Left Is Write]

26. Faith is different for each person, I think...

There are many Christians who don't actually believe the literal resurrection story. They see it as a message rather than history.

[Bullwinkle925]

29. It sounds like you have some semblance of faith.

Me - I have a rather fatalistic que sera sera look at life.

By the way, is the space age housewife blog yours? If so, may I commend you on your writing. Good stuff.

[Left Is Write]

31. Yes, I do follow my faith.

:)

Yes, the blog is mine. Thanks for the compliment! I've neglected it for too many weeks now - I really need to take the time to sit down and write. I've had ideas sparking fairly often lately, but not much time for writing them down.

[Bullwinkle925]

33. You should.

You certainly have a gift for writing and I'm green with envy. In my next life I hope to be able to sit down and have words flow freely from my pen to paper.

[skygazer]

13. Great minds think alike

And so do we, seemingly.

I've often wondered if I should wear a crumpled car on a necklace to signify my friends who were killed in accidents. But then it strikes me that the fairly modern tradition of creating shrines at the site of a person's death are similar to the wearing of the cross. When I was growing up, I had a number of friends die in car accidents - I don't remember there ever being a cross or flowers or any kind of mementos placed at the site. We had a funeral and that was that.

Now however, shrines pop up all over. People are killed on the road or at a railway crossing or in a house and boom! Flowers and teddy bears and notes and such are piled at the site. When did that begin? And why?

[Bullwinkle925]

16. I don't know.

I find it to be a very sad experience whenever I happen upon one of these happenstance shrines. I'd much rather remember the loved one in life than to commemorate the area in which they perished.

[skygazer]

17. That's how I feel

It seems strange and sad to focus so much on such a sad and final spot. I suppose if it gives someone some comfort though, it's not a bad thing. Just not what I would choose.

[Xipe Totec]

25. Check this out

http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/saintb11.htm

Then Google my avatar....



http://home.freeuk.net/elloughton13/xipe.htm

[Bullwinkle925]

32. Interesting stuff . . .

flaying people and then putting on their skins is repugnant to me. religion can be some pretty nasty business.

[yellowdogintexas]

27. I posted some thoughts about this around Easter time, and

actually put it in my DU Journal.

My tool of choice was the guillotine, actually.

The Romans started it, after all it was THEIR method of choice for executions.

[Kat45]

28. I would not say that the cross is being "glorified" in its use

I would say it is used so that people will always remember that Jesus died for us. What better reminder than the cross itself.

[Bullwinkle925]

30. Very succinct way of expressing it.

Still - the cross repesents an artifact of torture in my eyes.

:shrug:

[u4ic]

34. Bingo

Not only that Jesus died for them, that they are INDEBTED to him. Any other representation of Jesus isn't a stark reminder. His gory death is.

And it's not just a cross, it's a crucifix. Not just semantics, it's a big difference. ;)

[Left Is Write]

35. I think Bullwinkle's original post was about just crosses...

not the crucifix. My answers to her were based on my feelings about the cross.

[u4ic]

37. I tend to think of them

as intertwined, I guess. I do understand what she is saying...it was a very common way to execute at that time...

I don't mean any disrespect as I know you're a Christian (I was)...I know a good many liberal Christians (which I think it was originally meant to be, but got hijacked very early on). :hi:

[JVS]

36. Christianity is a religion, not a nation.

I suppose with certain ways of death (Stone would work well) it would be a good symbol. There are still the fish and the Chi-Ro symbol if the method of death were iconographically bad such as eaten by fire-ants or something