"There are no coincidences."

[raccoon]

I've heard people say that in church and in 12-step group meetings.

I can see how somebody might say that, if for instance, they needed
a job and just happened to run into Mr. Big, President of XYZ company, who just happened to need a secretary/janitor/security guard, and Mr. Big hired them.

On the other hand, though, what if the same person gets mugged--or worse? If "there are no coincidences," well...

[miss_american_pie]

1. And that

is why I don't go to church anymore.

[billyskank]

21. ...

You don't like religious people? :(

[miss_american_pie]

22. Oh I adore a bunch of religious people

My own crisis of faith has me feeling like a huge hypocrite if I get anywhere near a church.

[redqueen]

2. Didn't you watch the X Files?

I thought they covered this.

Anyone ever see that bad luck/good luck thing? I like that.

[raccoon]

5. I must've missed that episode. LOL. nt

[SPKrazy]

3. It's An Old Argument

free will vs. determinism

attempts to explain things that seem to happen that are greater than the laws of probability would allow for.

I think that in many ways we reap what we sow.

But shit happens that doesn't have anything to do with that.

So you've got this broad area where we are reaping what we sow

and you've got these sub plots where bad things happen and good things happen.

What the hell do I know?

:rofl:

[Az]

4. The two primary things that concern people

Are understanding and control. Ideally we want both of them for ourselves. Barring that we want to know that there is someone or something benevalent that has them. And even in the absense of that there are those that believe that there are malicious forces that posess these qualities. But it all relates back to the simple desire to understand and control our own environment.

Thus when people say there are no coincidents they are just saying something is in control and they wish it were them.

[Ariana Celeste]

6. Reminds me of my old roommate.

We weren't sure if she really thought that, or if it was just the meth messing with her- but she constantly rambled on about "Everything happens for a reason." I think she needed to believe that, because her life was such total chaos at that point.

[raccoon]

29. "Everything happens for a reason." Heard that one too.

IMO that is crap.

I never believed that one. What was the reason my mother developed Alzheimer's? The reason that people develop cancer, or Parkinson's? Now in some cases, cancer might be due to life choices but in many cases, it isn.t

If it comforts somebody else to believe such tripe, well, I guess, whatever gets you through the night. But it chaps my arse to even hear it...

[Schema Thing]

39. Unless you truly use "a puppeteer of somesort controls everything"

....as your reason, the phrase "everything happens for a reason" is not synonymous with "there is no such thing as coincidence", is it?

Then again, I guess that's exactly how some people use that phrase.


Synchronicity is amazing to me too, when it really exist, but coincidence is amusing. Coincidence is entertaining to me, both in it's own bizarreness, and in watching people who can't get their minds around it discount it.

[Madrone]

7. I'm neither a church member nor a 12-stepper -

And I believe everything happens for a reason.

Synchronicity is amazing.

[Az]

8. Whats even more amazing

is the brains ability to discern patterns even when they aren't there. The clouds don't really form images of Mickey Mouse. We just find patterns that look like Mickey Mouse.

[Madrone]

9. I know what I know - and have no need or desire to convince you.

I don't need validation. We can certainly agree to disagree on this.

[Az]

11. Of course

I meant it in no other way. I was merely sharing my amazement of the human mind. We do differ on this subject but thats ok. Its one of the cool things of being a human. We all get our own opinions. Cool isn't it?

[Madrone]

12. It is cool -

And after re-reading my post I can see how it could be received as being "snarky" from someone that doesn't know me well - so just in case I came off that way to you let me say that was not what I was trying to convey.

I AM the queen of "Agree to Disagree" - as I feel arguments are futile. And I don't feel the need to have everyone think exactly like I do. I mean, *I* know I'm right - I don't care if *you* do. :D ;) lol

[Az]

14. Arguments are futile

But discussions are not.

[Madrone]

16. We can agree on that!

:thumbsup:

[WildEyedLiberal]

23. Sorry to butt in randomly, but -

What is that quote in your sig line from? It's amazing. A song or poem? I'd love to see the full source. Also who is that man?

LOL, your sig line intrigues me, as you can tell.

[Madrone]

24. The man is singer/songwriter John Prine -

And the quote is an excerpt of lyrics from one of his songs:

Your Flag Decal Won't Get You Into Heaven Anymore
© John Prine

While digesting Reader's Digest
In the back of a dirty book store,
A plastic flag, with gum on the back,
Fell out on the floor.
Well, I picked it up and I ran outside
Slapped it on my window shield,
And if I could see old Betsy Ross
I'd tell her how good I feel.

Chorus:
But your flag decal won't get you
Into Heaven any more.
They're already overcrowded
From your dirty little war.
Now Jesus don't like killin'
No matter what the reason's for,
And your flag decal won't get you
Into Heaven any more.

Well, I went to the bank this morning
And the cashier he said to me,
"If you join the Christmas club
We'll give you ten of them flags for free."
Well, I didn't mess around a bit
I took him up on what he said.
And I stuck them stickers all over my car
And one on my wife's forehead.

Repeat Chorus:

Well, I got my window shield so filled
With flags I couldn't see.
So, I ran the car upside a curb
And right into a tree.
By the time they got a doctor down
I was already dead.
And I'll never understand why the man
Standing in the Pearly Gates said...

"But your flag decal won't get you
Into Heaven any more.
We're already overcrowded
From your dirty little war.
Now Jesus don't like killin'
No matter what the reason's for,
And your flag decal won't get you
Into Heaven any more."



circa 1971, I believe and every bit as relevant now!

[WildEyedLiberal]

25. Powerful.

Thanks for solving the mystery for me! :D

[Madrone]

27. Any time!

:)

[cobalt1999]

32. ding, ding, ding...we have a winner.

You're right, we are built to try and recognize patterns. Which is why a lot of IQ tests have pattern or series questions.

I love it when someone tells me a story and ends it with "Coincidence!?!". Me: "Ummm yes, that's the definition of the word."

With 6 billion people all bouncing around this small planet, I'd be extremely surprised if everyone doesn't have a whole host of coincidence stories. Simple probability would demand it.

[MrCoffee]

10. There are stories of coincidence and chance...

and intersections and strange things told, and which is which and who only knows? And we generally say, "Well, if that was in a movie, I wouldn't believe it." Someone's so-and-so met someone else's so-and-so and so on. And it is in the humble opinion of this narrator that strange things happen all the time. And so it goes, and so it goes. And the book says, "We may be through with the past, but the past ain't through with us."

[swag]

13. As I was saying a couple years ago to a DUer who had experienced

a string of failing laptops,

". . . in the specific case of coincidences ... there is an unspecified element, which makes the probability of coincidences higher than we otherwise might have thought. Although the person is specific (you), we do not specify what kind of coincidence will take place . . . I'm not saying coincidence is common - only that it's not as rare as we think. The reason is that the aggregation of causes happens in so many possible ways that eventually a coincidence becomes unavoidable."

Chance by Amir D. Aczel

[bettyellen]

42. coincidence my ass! most literally.

i sat on her laptop. but she loved me so much she forgave and forgot immediately.
i had to remind her of it.

[hfojvt]

15. mugging is bad?

A story from "The Te of Piglet"

"Once there was a man whose horse escaped and ran away. His neighbors rushed over to console him. "Oh, that's terrible," they said. "How do you know?" He asked.
The next day, the horse came back and brought with it, five wildhorses. The neighbors rushed over "Oh, that's great!" they exclaimed. "How do you know?" the old man asked.
The next day his 20 year old son tried to ride one of the wildhorses, was thrown off and broke his leg. The neighbors rushed over "oh, that's terrible," they wailed. "How do you know?" the old man asked again.
Three days later the Chinese army came, and forced all males between 16 and 25 into service, but since the old man's son had a broken leg, he did not have to go."

I think what people who do not believe in coincidences get from their belief is the hope that everything will work out for good if they just keep plugging away, and this hope sustains them like a cool glass of water in the long dark tea-time of the soul.

[unpossibles]

19. what a coincidence!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=100416&mesg_id=100424

I just wrote the same (or similar rather) thing earlier today. Spooky!

[hfojvt]

20. it's like deja vu

all over again.

[raccoon]

30. I posted to this forum first, when I thought

I wasn't getting any replies, I posted to the other. LOL.

Actually with this topic, there were several forums that seemed appropriate for it, the Lounge, GD, Religion/Theology, Recovery.

And before anybody says anything about cross-posting, I didn't post the identical message to both forums. :-)

[Az]

31. I did

:D

[raccoon]

33. True, and thanks for your response. It was well thought out.

Maybe next time I need to be a little more patient!

But I got some good responses all the way around.

[Az]

34. Its tricky discussing matters of belief

Even trickier doing it on a political site. But I happen to believe it is well worth the effort. People disagree on things. Not discussing the differences leads to distance and seperation between people. And thats not healthy for society.

[unpossibles]

38. I disagree

no wait. No I don't.

:D

[NNadir]

17. What a coincidence. I was thinking that.

[idgiehkt]

18. look at it this way

good things happen for a reason and bad things are coincidences, lol

I believe a little of both but I also believe trying to pin things like this down is as hard as getting ahold of the soap again once you've dropped it in the bathwater.

I do believe in flow, like in the Tao, and I'm focusing right now on how 'not with it' I am when it comes to that and just how badly, as in BADLY, I screw up my life when I either force things whose time hasn't come yet or neglect to do things that need to be done at the moment. I am almost always, it seems, out of the flow, or not in sync with Tao and I know there is a reason for that that is very deep and complicated, but I'm just tired of my life being this way. I know when you are in tune with the right flow of energy you are more likely to be in the right place at the right time to receive the coincidences and stuff that happen that can be beneficial and I also know just like in the Tao Te Ching it has nothing whatever to do with morality; I can think of one woman I worked with in particular who was rather reserved and very observant and shrewd and still, and she had an amazing, unbelievable knack for being in the right place at the right time and working things to her advantage and getting ahead and getting her way. She was just a master at it, but I thought she was pretty immoral with some of the things she did, but the universe doesn't even seem to care. Wow, that got deep.

As far as twelve step meetings go, the only doctrine AA has are the twelve steps:
http://www.aa-louisiana.org/steps.htm
Platitudes may have sprung up over the years, but just because someone says it at a meeting doesn't mean it's official doctrine, it just means someone heard it and said it because they believed it, whereas other people may not. I think the formation of this planet and the beginning of life was a huge coincidence, and I guess probably everything else since then too.

[raccoon]

28. I agree, platitudes like that aren't official 12 step doctrine. nt

[raccoon]

35. By George, I think you've got it! LOL

"good things happen for a reason and bad things are coincidences, lol"

[ZombieNixon]

26. There aren't. It's choice, not chance, that determines destiny.

It was your choice to go for a walk down to the 7-11 next to Mr. Big's apartment a minute before Mr. Big happens to leave for work, and it was Mr. Big's choice to admire the size of his wiener getting out of the shower and thus end up leaving late.

It was also your choice to take the shortcut through the alley to the bus station, and the choice of the mugger to choose that particular place from which to jump people. it just so happened that your respective choices happened to lead you to the same place at the same time.

[zanne]

36. BS

Of course, there is such a thing as coincidence. That's like saying "There are no accidents". Pure B.S. I think people just like saying these things.

[hedgehog]

37. I look at it this way.

Free will means that God has to let certain events stand or else free will has no meaning. On the other hand, if events can be nudged without abrogating free will, then why not? It explains how bad things just happen while good things are a blessing.

[Schema Thing]

40. Folks, "free will" is a construct, a concept. It's not a "thing-that-exist"

It's not real. More than a passing discussion of it is just masturbation. deal with it.

Or don't, if someone has taken your free will to deal with such things away.

[puerco-bellies]

41. I believe that there is free will, and we can influence the "reality" that we live in.

It has become apparent to me that if I keep a certain state of mind my physical reality reflects my thought line to a greater than less degree. Incidents do occur that support that state (meeting the boss looking for the employee etc.). It is my belief that this is a law of the universe, based in physics (i.e. Schrödinger's cat) as well as philosophy (prayer, karma, mind over matter whatever). Free will does exist, but we are also subjected to the inherent randomness that is at the core of the physical universe (matter over mind).