Are Army enlistment promises empty?

[diddlysquat]

A daughter of a friend of mine just enlistted in the Army. She was promised all kinds of things, including free college while she serves, apartment life in different US cities and the like. She was offered a job from a list of appealing non-combat office type jobs. She is a naive high school senior who will be leaving for the Army immediately after she graduates this June.

All I know is how badly the Army is hurting for more warm bodies over in Iraq. Can anyone with specific knowledge comment on this concern?

[Superfly]

1. Point by point

1) Free college. Tuition assitance is currently at 100% However, you owe 3 days for every one that you are in college in the form of an extended service obligation, that can be served concurrently with other obligations (like accepting a higher rank)

2) Apartment living. I take it, that's a euphamism for "barracks living." The Army is seriously pouring money into modernizing barracks at most installations.

[underpants]

4. Is the free tuition thing new?

See my post below. We weren't required to do any extended service and they only paid 75%.

Yes the single soldiers initiative did change a whole lot about barracks living and I am sure they have had to upgrade the quarters in the last ten years, for internet alone.

[Superfly]

7. Yeah, as of late 2001 or early last year...

I forget. The thing with the 3-1 commitment is that it can be served concurrently with other service obligations. Say you enlist for 4 years, start and finish college in the first year, you can still get out on your ETS date at the end of your original 4-year commitment.

[underpants]

8. Okay but I am stil a bit confused

Do they have to do what we considered extra duty?

Do they only go to college or do they go at night like we did?

[Superfly]

9. It depends...

Extra duty? No. Extra duty (like CQ) is still assigned using the old form DA-6.

Some commands (usually at the platoon level) allow exceptional soldiers to attend classes during the day (I know I let a few do that), but most of the education centers on post have evening classes.

[atreides1]

6. You Forgot One

There is no such thing as a non-combat office job in the Army. If she is assigned to a unit going to Iraq or Afghanistan she will be in a combat zone. And why is it that people fail to realize that most troops in the military are in support positions, not combat arms.

An Army division with 20,000 troops only has about 8,000 to 9,000
combat troops, the rest are either support or combat support. And
that's not counting the soldiers assigned to the garrison.

Just a small addition form a former combat support soldier.

[underpants]

10. Jessica Lynch was a supply clerk

and the Rangers in the "Blackhawk Down" situation were "saved" by cooks and mechanics. Everyone's secondary MOS is 11B (infantry).

ON EDIT-MOS not POS

[Superfly]

11. Army is changing that too...

There is a pilot program at the infantry school where all IET soldiers are being trained to be 11Bs first, then learn a secondary skill like cook, mechanic, etc. (Sort of like what the USMC does)

I'm really surprised they didn't think of it years ago.

[trogdor]

21. No shit?

Man, things have sure changed since I was full-time, and not for the better.

<i>The Army is seriously pouring money into modernizing barracks at most installations.</i>

Believe me, most of that is lip service. The dining facilities at Fort Drum got a very minor facelift, from what I saw this past March, but the food still sucks. As for the barracks, even a comparably-equipped barracks room is still worthless if you rarely see the inside of it because you're in Iraq/the field/Afghanistan/Nextistan/Wherever.

Speaking (mostly) from experience.

[underpants]

2. They tend to focus on the positives

AS far as education goes they do pay for 75% (this is based on when I was in in the early 90's) of it and you can't be kept from going to class. For an office worker that shouldn't be problem anyway but I was a Scout and the NCO's hated that I got to leave what we were doing to go to class (6 hours of German 3 hours of zoology the only things I could take that applied to all majors as I had still not decided).

The apartment thing depends on two things. One is that the Commanding officer of the unit has to allow her to live off post and the second is that she has to be able to afford it. I think I made about $800 a month so figure that into rent, she could room with few soldiers but trust me you never really know who is in the next bunk ( long story).

I was able to go to sick call about twice in three years and only had one dental appointment. This was due to horrible management but the Sgt.s (NCOs) who were more worried about us getting over on them (getting out of "work" -standing in a Bradley parking lot in all types of weather) than about my well being.

[Superfly]

3. TA is 100% now...

commitment is still 3 to 1

[trogdor]

22. You can too be kept from going to class.

That's local command policy, not Army policy. There is a difference. I was at Patch Barracks (a plum assignment in Germany) in the early 1980's, and I did all the school my brain could take. Ditto at Fort Jackson. At Fort Drum (10th Mountain Division), you could pretty much forget it.

I know all about that last part, though. Sick call is usually held BEFORE PT, so you could drag your sick ass in there, get told to "suck it up," and still make it to formation in -10 weather to run your ass off with a 101-degree fever. You pretty much had to be bleeding to death to get sent home sick.

I hate the Army.

[truthspeaker]

5. is Conan O'Brian tall?

Misleading and dishonest statements by recruiters are as old as the concept of a volunteer army. The only things guaranteed are what's in writing. Read the fine print!

[Robb]

12. Or, as my dad (ex-marine) put it,

"...If you really want to go waterskiing in Germany, save up and buy a ticket." ;)

[KG]

13. heh

nobody i ever talked to that was in the military got the assignment the were told they would get.

the closest thing was a co-worker who was told he could learn to be a diesil mechanic. he ended up as a tank commander. :)

[underpants]

16. Ha that reminds me of a Rambo I ran into at Ft.Knox

Assimilation or whatever they call the first week of haircuts and getting uniforms.

This guy was right out of central casting a real Rambo if you know what I mean. Anyway he was bragging about how much of a bad ass he was and that he was going to be a TANKER, on an M1A1. He was talking and talking and he mentioned that he was going to Ft.Eustis for his advanced training. I grew up near Ft. Useless and they don't have tanks there it is a transportation post. This guy had probably signed up to DRIVE a tanker and refuel vehicles. When I pointed this out to him he just about blew a gasket.

[5thGenDemocrat]

24. Small world, underpants

I went through BCT at Fort Knox (D-15-4) and served my permanent party at Fort Monroe, just down the road from Eustis.
My experience with Army promises: I told the guy at the AFEES station in Detroit that I wanted to work on the radio. He went through his Big Book of MOSs and informed me that the job code I wanted was Communications Center Specialist (72E20).
It wasn't until I got to Fort Gordon, GA for advanced training, walked into the classroom the first day and saw row after row after row of standard-issue Army teletypes that I knew I'd been had.
Fortunately, the Fort Monroe comm center wasn't a bad place to work (air-conditioned, plenty of hot coffee and, because I usually worked third shift, a minimum of officers on the loose). I spent a little time working on the radio after I got out and it turned out I hadn't missed much.
John
Which BCT company were you in at Knox, 'pants?

[prolesunited]

14. Check out these lyrics by Paris

Pretty abrasive and edgy, but I think in contains some hard truth.

AWOL

I remember how it started, remember the time
I was watchin’ Rap City ‘bout a quarter to nine
Commercial said the military givin’ money for school
Caught the bus up to my campus - they was signin’ recruits
And met this dude named Diablo, was some kinda vet
He explained the situation, told me what to expect
He said, "We’ll help you pay for college - and train you for work"
Said I could take computer classes and could quit if I want
But best of all was the fact I’d - have my own shit
I’d have my own space and have my own place to kick it
On top of that I’d travel - and visit the world
Hell, Diablo said the women overseas was the pearl
Didn’t even call my girl - let’s get it on fo’ sho’
Signed my name, took some tests and I was outta the door
A true soldier for America - ready to go
On the road - a vacation’ll be good for the soul

Don’t mind what they sayin’, no
They lie in what they say fa’ sho
They don’t play when it come to war
Ya know they get down, they get down, they get down

I showed up at basic training, but what a mistake
‘Cause this motherfuckas yellin’ at me all in my face
In this dirty-ass latrine, fifty men in a room
Runnin’ laps up in the mud at 4 o clock in the mornin’
Was scrubbin’ toilets, doin’ laundry, and feelin’ the pain
If I didn’t know no better I’d think “Boy” was my name
Same bullshit line - so many bit ‘fore me
Got a nigga twisted up in this illusion of freedom
Fuck this shit - I’m out tomorrow, made up my mind
Everything Diablo said I’m findin’ out was a lie
That’s when my unit got the call, the Commander in Chief
Wanted ground troop assignments keepin’ peace in the East
What a relief, I’m thinkin’ finally something new
Shipped us off and twenty hours later we was en route
Touched down around eleven - the desert was brutal
Then the ground split and caught us by surprise from the shootin’

Don’t mind what they sayin’, no
They lie in what they say fa’ sho
They don’t play when it come to war
Ya know they get down, they get down, they get down

It was all surreal, seen ‘em blow the spine out his back
In a mine field, we was reelin’ from the attack
Seen the MO’s hand upon the receiver, still attached
With no arm in it - set off the beacon, then I mashed
To the first truck, blood and guts splashin'’ my face
Cuttin’ kids down, couldn’t have been no older than 8
What the fuck is goin’ on? Who we fightin’ and why?
Killin’ kids killin’ killers, who the fuck is supplyin’?
I’m cryin’ out for protection, but none of it came
So I dumped in all directions ‘til the heater was drained
But that night vision shit, wasn’t helpin’ us win
Caught a round of friendly fire but it wasn’t so friendly
We simply got lucky - headed back to the base
Seen a soldier rape a woman, shot her dead in the face
Guts stuck to my clothes, body parts galore
If this a peace-keepin’ mission, I ain’t ready for war
And now I’m back home bitter, and sick and contagious
And knowin’ we some bullies, that’s why everyone hates us
Still broke than a motherfucka, niggas is starvin’
And that job trainin’ shit is only good for the Army
I guess I shoulda been a C.O., and kept up a file
Shoulda listened when my homie said we murder for oil
Now I’m fuckin’ with this wheelchair, ain’t nothin’ the same
And I’m knowin’ confrontations more than video games
War is pain

http://www.guerrillafunk.com/paris/sonic_jihad/awol.html

[HawkerHurricane]

15. Recruiters are not allowed to lie

They are also not required to tell the truth.

Misleading statements are common, and all military jobs are by definition combat jobs. Sure, you work in a office, but your office is a target for attack. Some offices are more vulnerable than others, of course, but...

Also, 'needs of the service' trumps any and all promises in your contract.

From the navy contract, in small print...
"We promise to provide one meal a day (if available) and at least one hour of sleep in any 24 hour period (if possible)"

[scottcsmith]

17. Get it in writing!

Make sure any promises are in writing.

I enlisted when I started my senior year of high school. It was a program to lock you into a specific job upon graduation of high school.

I took the ASVAB and qualified to be a Navy journalist.

The recruiter wanted me in some other field. I refused to consider anything else, and I was eventually selected to be a military journalist.

I'd take other promises with a grain of salt. I don't think they are out to deceive, but they do want to portray their branch of the armed forces in the best possible light.

Being in a non-combat MOS does not mean you'll avoid being sent to Iraq. Jessica Lynch was a supply clerk.

I usually tell people who are interested in the military to check out the Air Force first. Of all the armed forces, they seem to be the most concerned about the health and welfare of its members. Air Force posts are very nice places.

[trogdor]

23. So, how was it?

Kinda like working at the Washington Times? I am a Reservist. I read Soldiers, and see what they publish. That's gotta suck.

[wingnut]

18. GET IT IN WRITING

If it's not on your contract, you aren't going to get it.

That does not include things open to all soldiers, such as GI Bill.

[diddlysquat]

19. Thanks for all the input.

This helps me understand a lot of what my friend's daughter is getting into. I wish her parents had done their homework a little better.

[scottcsmith]

20. Me too...

As I recall, I sort of decided on my own to enlist and I don't recall a lot of parental involvement. The recruiter came to my home to get my mother to sign everything since I was only 17, and I think she asked some questions, but there wasn't much of an objection. Then again there was no money for college, so she was probably glad I did it.

I don't regret my service, but I do regret not taking advantage of the educational opportunities I had available. I was in six years, and I could have at least gotten my AA, if not a BA/BS.

[CanuckAmok]

25. Join the Canadian Armed Forces.

Sign on for a trade, and that's the trade you get, or you're free to leave.

It's that easy.

Plus, you're likely to never fire a shot. How's that for cushy?

[CanuckAmok]

26. An aside about the British Army, circa 1812...

Keep in mind this was a 'volunteer army'... Undercover "Recruiters" would travel from pub to pub looking for young men drinking alone. When they found one, they'd throw a gold crown (coin) in a large cup of stout, and tell the boy that if he could drink to the bottom of the cup, the crown was his to keep. They would do this a few times, until the boy was completely incapacitated. When he woke up, he was in the British Army, usually en route to some ungodly place like India or Upper Canada.

Oh, and the gold crowns he won? They were taken as payment for his new red uniform and musket.

The point? Don't trust the army!