Have you ever wanted to be social with people,

[Deja Q]

even though you know inherent problems render you socially incapable?

It's being lost in a maze. A maze made of glass. You can see other people, but you are not able to reach out to them without hitting the wall and getting hurt. And while it's not soundproof, it muffles the sounds so that it makes understanding one another more difficult?

I could tell you how the glass is constructed, how much there is, how much it weighs, and every other corporeal aspect. But you're not going to care because those things are mere trivial trivia; the fodder of a dozen game shows.

If I were to ever describe Asperger's Syndrome succinctly, I think I just had.

[mark414]

1. if you think you're gonna have problems

then you're gonna have problems

create your own reality - tis better to be a fool for believing in yourself than a coward who doesn't

[BelleCarolinaPeridot]

32. That is so true.

[hunter]

34. I'm a character in a story I'm writing.

As I gain more experience, the story and the reality begin to merge.

When I was a kid I used to get hammered on by bullies because I was truly obnoxious. I'd get shoved, hit, tripped, called names, have my stuff stolen and stomped into the mud... every day was a new adventure in pain. Kids can be very cruel.

College was great because nobody was physically assaulting me anymore! Unfortunately I was still socially clueless. I was asked to leave college twice for my bizarre behavior. Whenever my studies intersected with my obsessions I was very likely to step on someone's toes. I had zero tact. For example I once humiliated a teaching assistant in front of a professor. That conflict escalated until the TA purposely deleted all my work just before it was due. Understanding the nature of our conflict, the professor reprimanded the TA as lightly as possible and failed me. This was only one of the problems I'd had when the college told me to take some time off. Later, when they let me back in, one of the specific conditions was that I would stay out of trouble with the teaching assistants.

I've always had a sort of evasive "nice guy" personality to keep me out of trouble in awkward social situations where I can't read people. This did not serve me well as a young adult. I was seriously used and abused in quite a few of my relationships, and I wasn't savvy enough to recognize that. Twice I got my heart broken by people who were, consciously or not, taking advantage of my inherent naivete. Eventually I learned to protect myself. In addition to my nice guy personality I now have a sterner "high expectations" personality that I can wear whenever I need it. This personality is especially useful around teenagers, who can rip apart nice guys.

But I really don't know what advice I can give about creating one's own reality. One of the reasons I don't feel painfully awkward in social situations anymore is that the scar tissue is simply too thick. A large part of my apparent confidence is simply a kind of insensitivity. Underlying that my ability to make intellectual and emotional connections is improved, but it's not what most people naturally have.

[cwydro]

2. yes

[Nikia]

3. You will be treated as inferior if you act as you are inferior

It is amazing how much interacting with people as though you are their equal and not an unworthy freak can improve your social life. It is true that you will never be liked by everyone. You might not ever be like those naturually introverted and socially gifted people, but you will have friends and generally be treated better by most people if you do this. I know that this is true.
On the otherhand, I am choosing to be anti social for that very reason. I really don't feel like attracting friends right now. For whatever reaon, my husband insists on staying with me despite my behavior.

[Ravenseye]

4. I have an Uncle with Asperger's

he's too busy looking at the serial numbers on coaches and recording them in a little book. Great guy. Weird as all hell.

[Deja Q]

14. Understandable

Those with AS do have unique little habits at times...

Doesn't mean we're all un-aware of people and social issues... and needs. The AS support group I go to has people from either extreme of the disorder and areas inbetween... very enlightening, the wide range people can be...

[Chan790]

5. I find some of the replies here to be insensitive

It's not like a change in attitude is going to make everything okay and cure Asperger's.

It's not as simple as a Social Anxiety Disorder, it effects the very way people with Asperger's perceive social interactions. Even with the best attitude in the world it's like interacting with other people in a fog where you can't read social cues and fumble the ones you send out. You see other people interacting socially and can't understand why you can't. Except that...you actually can't (interact socially), at least not well or naturally. So you fake it and everybody knows you're faking it.

Edited: I can't speel, I can't write a complete thought. Wow, I'm mentally shot.

[idgiehkt]

7. thanks.

"and fumble the ones you send out."

I have more trouble with that than the first part of that sentence.

really good explanation for it, but it sounds like people either don't understand what it is or don't believe it's real.

[Deja Q]

11. I was adumbrating the social aspects of AS.

And AS is rather more complex...

The DUer who mentioned his uncle adumbrated another aspect of AS, which is correct. We have tendencies to hone in on select things, do things others would perceive as strange, et al.

[BarenakedLady]

8. Yes, thanks

As someone who does have social anxiety disorder, I thank you for explaining the difference to me.

[Deja Q]

10. Doesn't mean they're wrong.

And I also allow feelings from my past to affect my present.

And I've been insensitive at times too.

I've always had Asperger's syndrome. Social Anxiety developed from the hapless interactions I had as a child. I do not believe they know what has happened to me, nor would they want to experience it in a developing form. It does stay with a person, regardless of how hard they try to fight the 'victimization' viewpoint. And some say I am a dramatically improved person now than I was 10 years ago. (and those who have seen me recently should fathom how timid I used to be. I've come a long way. But have a long way to go.)

[Pithlet]

38. Thank you.

My son is an Aspie. It's not something he'll be able to just pull himself up by the boostraps and pretend he's able to socialize normally and everything will go away. I think responses like that are well intended, but it's important to point out they're wrong. It's not as though people with Aspergers are only like that because they aren't trying hard enough to be "normal". It's not a self esteem issue.

[Deja Q]

39. Thank you.

That is very true.

[maxsolomon]

6. whaaa?

this sounds like everyone in Seattle.

[hotforteacher]

9. Ah, my precious Toadie!

It really can be so fucking difficult to wade through the muck and mire that is human interactions without your own hardwired perception issues. And it would be markedly easier for all involved were folks to discontinue assuming things. And most people who claim to have all of their faculties are socially stunted, IMHO, when it comes to communication.

With my own students, I have had massive reality changes because of a higher-functioning Autistic child who had language cognition issues. You could ask this child a question and he would give me the most befuddled look. I thought his mother was blowing smoke up my ass when she explained "you just have to explain it differently". That's inconvenient, right? ;) Well, when I figured out his "language" the entire personality of this child changed. He became part of the class community, the kids learned how to talk with him as well and cherish his special talents (of which there were many). He learned to be much braver and self-assured because we did the same. I miss that kid.

We would all do well to remember that changing our own perception of things can help another who has difficulty doing so because of organic reasons.

As for Our Toad, you've got the chops, baby. Truly.

[Deja Q]

12. Thank you

for taking the time to learn his "language". :pals: You're damn well better than 99% of the teachers out there. You got involved, and in ways he's going to appreciate as he gets older.

(Out of curiosity, what are chops?)

[hotforteacher]

24. Chops=guts, resilience, ability...the stuff it takes to keep going!

It supersedes survival. My buddy Danny would call it "character". You've got it, Toadie. :)

To run through this world coherent of all it's flaws and fucked-up-ed-ness can take its toll. After I left my partner of four years, and fought for 18 months for custody of our daughter, I learned some precious lessons about humans and human behavior. I was naïve, easily wounded, and fundamentally thought-impaired. Through that process, I became stronger and gained a substantially keener, clinical eye. It would have been easy to isolate, but I couldn't do it

Well, I learned to keep them open, whilst learning to keep my yapper shut more often. :) I'm not as good at it as I would strive to be and am certainly imperfect, but there you are! Everyone deserves a healthy start and someone to mentor them. I had neither growing up...I seek to ensure my daughter and students that advantage. It takes it's toll in the heart, but mine is strong (calloused in some places, but you'll have that). I spend a lot of time being alone, sometimes lonely, when I would crave someone who understands me intimately...but I cannot ask that of anyone until I get my own shit. Okay, I DO seek it all the time, but I'm a natural-born masochist.

My question: how many more years will THAT take! Bwa-hahahahaha!!

I read a lot of posts around these parts riddled with people projecting their issues all over the place. If ANYONE has the gall to start calling people out for taking things personally or being socially fucked-up, they'd better be willing to run to the can and look in the fucking mirror.

[idgiehkt]

18. thanks so much for posting that

I really, really appreciate being able to read that. I can't imagine what it is like to have a parent who understands what their child is going through and advocates on their behalf. And it's amazing to me that you were willing to believe this parent and to strive to communicate with this child in a language that they can understand.

I am just starting to deal with my own issues surrounding this and I am kind of trying to reprogram some of the things I absorbed about myself as a kid who just couldn't get a grasp on things. This stuff wasn't really that well known when I was growing up and even if it had been I wouldn't have fit the profile, I was a cute blonde female, not a shy, intelligent, male, and I can't tell you how many times I was called a 'dumb blonde' or just stupid or whatever, because I wasn't keyed into what people were talking about and really couldn't understand it. And I couldn't defend myself against those insults because even though I knew I was in fact intelligent I also knew there was something really wrong with my perception and interactions although I didn't have a name for it. I am struggling right now with being misunderstood when I ask people to explain themselves or not use euphemistic speech, it's like I want to say, excuse me but I don't know what the f*ck you are trying to say unless you actually f*cking say it, excuse the profanity but that's where I'm at with it, kind of frustrated because sometimes they act like I am playing stupid or making it up, when I really just don't get what they are hinting at, or talking around, or whatever.

[hotforteacher]

26. People are so often misunderstood.

Some people truly get off on it, but that's another issue altogether, and not what you and Toadie and several others have reiterated. :)

Good on you for realizing what other adults taking care of you could not. And I'm sorry that they did not. Being a tolerable human being is hard enough, attempting to be a good one is a path laden with guilt and self-doubt, at times, self-hatred. Having a bit of peace is hard-earned.

And well worth the patience.

When I was going through the custody battle (and bear with me...this is gonna sound a bit flakey, but who the fuck cares?!), I went through a six-month period where I realized that I had to reprogram, just as you had mentioned, and started reading something over and over again. Something beautiful, instead of all the toxic shit I picked up as a child and young adult. I chose the Desiderata. I don't believe in a god, but this is a marvelous piece as far as I'm concerned.

Good luck, darling.

[graywarrior]

13. I do...til I'm with them, then I want to flee.

[otherlander]

15. You sound like...

me.:wow:

Be scared. Be very scared.:hi:

[graywarrior]

16. I am like you.

My biggest fear being social is getting trapped and being bored. Having conversation cuts into creative time.

[Deja Q]

17. Scared for what?

[otherlander]

19. Of being like me!

Quick, eat a burger! That's something I haven't done in years! :)

[Sugar Smack]

20. I've always loved your writing, always.

You have incredible confidence when you write, and I realize it's partially due to the fact that not every single social cue of a live interaction is going to be present. I've noticed you also have a very accurate and correct way of writing, as correct as it is passionate. That's maybe a symptom of Asperger's, too. I have bouts of OCD, and that's part of it.

I'm going to add that meeting you in person was wonderful. That I got your PM, and that I'll probably just continue this there.



:hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug:

[Deja Q]

21. They wanted to move me up a grade early...

solely because of my writing skills. (this is not uncommon for many with Asperger's, a polished writing skill...). My parents vetoed it citing I should be in the 1990 class and not 1989. (I had enough peer problems as it was too...)

I'm also outside a social context when I write. This adds a world of confidence I would never have when dealing with people up front. (as with meeting you, I never expected to click with you so well...)

I'll check the PM... :hug:

[Generic Brad]

22. I used to want to be social in my youth

I had a lot of anxiety of whether or not people would like me or not. Now that I am older I no longer give a rat's ass about what anybody thinks of me. I find that people want to get social with me more than I want to be with them.

Hopefully you will grow more comfortable in your own skin as you get a older.

[ismnotwasm]

23. I have a friend who just self diagnosed herself

Was a "professional student" for many years, not exactly socially inept, but would be considered strange by the unkind and intolerant. In spite of a incredible intellect and a a couple of masters degrees, she has a hard time keeping a job. She tends to seek out others who are "strange" or flawed by societies standards. She recently found out she has a couple of nephews with the syndrome and is going in to be evaluated.

She's a hell of a woman, and has been though a lot. She's 50ish, and I hope she finds the peace she seeks.

[undeterred]

25. yes I think you just did

I know someone with Asperger's syndrome and I don't know how to relate to him. It feels like extra work. He is in a political group I belong to and he works very hard at everything. But he's not connected to anyone.

I feel guilty sometimes for not trying harder. I don't know what it feels like to be him, because he is unreadable, as I imagine I am to him. Reading your posts does help me to understand and to realize how often he must just feel totally out of it.

[Ryan from Canada]

27. Been there

Sympathies -- I've been there, but then I realize I would rather be doing something else anyways...

[Canuckistanian]

28. I want to keep in touch with you

My son is autistic (although not diagnosed with Asperger's).

I always want to hear about those walls. They're so real for my son as well, but so hard for me to understand.

It must be so frustrating.

[Deja Q]

33. It can be frustrating.

Feel free to PM; I'd love to correspond with you.

[Lilith Velkor]

29. That's how I am

I took SSRIs for depression due to social difficulties, and they all gave me severe panic attacks.

I'd like to be able to hold down a job, but people keep getting very upset with me, and when I ask what I did, they make dumb facial expressions, and when I ask what those expressions mean, they get even more upset. I don't know how to keep normal people from going off, and I've never had it explained to me because normal people are always busybusybusy and assholes always lie to vulnerable people because they think it's funny when they hurt.

Hope that made sense.

[wildhorses]

30. you come across here as being intelligent, funny and kind

I just think a princess needs to come along and kiss our toad and then you will become the Prince Charming that has been inside you all a long:hug:


and oh yeah--I miss your cat--it was perfect for Halloween;)

[Kutjara]

31. As someone who spent their entire childhood...

...coping from abuse, molestation, riducule and peer-hatred, I understand exactly how your feel, my dear Hypno.

Even though those days are temporally behind me, they're psychologically present and affect everything I do. Most of the time, I have a sufficiently-developed outer skin that I can appear to be a capable, professional and socialised individual, but it doesn't take much to shatter my confidence and send me scuttling for cover. I know that, at heart, I'm a fraud and a humbug, not the equal of those around me and not deserving of love and respect.

I'm fortunate that I have a few people who love me and affirm my worth, but I still feel that they can't see the real me and, if they could, they'd abandon me too. Over the years, I've realized that this feeling has nothing to to with them (though I cringe at the number of relationships I've destroyed because I believed it did) and everything to do with me.

Once I learned to stop caring about how much of an idiot it made me look, I stopped being quite so much of an idiot.

If you'd like to talk more by PM, I'd be happy to share more of what I've learned about living as a person just like yourself, but with a few more years to think things through.

Believe me, you are very far from being alone.

[tigereye]

35. I just finished reading The Curious Incident of the Dog in the

Nighttime and it was a really good delineation of a young man with an ASD - sort of seeing his difficulty with the world, it's workings and how hard interactions with people can be. It's also a wonderful book in general, funny, inspiring and sad. It's interesting how folks with an ASD seem to be able to interact so well online (with no wall? since no actual people are present other than the writer) and then encounter the wall with the presence of others and their confusing cues and behaviors. We have been watching a lot of Star Trek lately - the Next Generation, and watching Data struggle as he attempts to figure out emotions, human reactions, phrasing and the foibles of his colleagues, has made me see ASD's in a different light. (I work with children with ASDs and I am always looking for a different way to understand the way that they perceive the world and teach them skills that could help.)

Good luck!

[hunter]

36. A critique of that book that rings true to me...

Rereading the Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time, I immediately found fault with the idea that Christopher is self-aware, and could articulate his thoughts so clearly.

Autistic children have difficulty communicating because their self-consciousness is absent or greatly diminished. Clarity of self-consciousness leads to clarity of inner communications. If one has clear inner communications, one would also be clear communicating with the external world.

When I was at Christopher's age, I was still mostly sleep-walking. And by the way, I was a very high functioning autistic who went through normal schooling without any help, medication or trouble with the school authorities. The lower-functioning autistics probably have even less self-awareness than me.

http://iautistic.com/autism-myths-the-curious-incident-of-the-dog-in-the-night-time.php

This point about "inner communications" is very important. It didn't occur to me until I was in my early twenties that people have some sort of inner narrative about themselves and others, and that I might be able to create something similar in myself. This disability is still the greatest source of conflict in my life. I can visualize myself doing something, and plan my days as visualizations of me doing something, but interactions with people are still fuzzy and unpredictable. If things go "off script" with people, if I lose the emotional contexts of a situation, I stumble around horribly, and often I've made difficult situations worse. Sometimes my most effective solution is emotional detachment of some sort -- which has got me accolades for keeping a cool head in crisis situations, but more often has got me labeled as a cold fish. But far better that than the times I have completely lost it, especially when I was a kid and I could go off like a cat in a dog's face.

But beyond that, these are difficult topics for me. I'm unsettled about the usefulness of these threads. In my life I've had some tremendous support, and basically it all comes down to living in the world as it is, no matter what's happening or not happening inside your head. The most influential people in my life have had a "black box" sort of attitude about mental health -- there's input, there's output, there's feedback, and you don't worry so much about the actual processes going on inside the box so long as the output is appropriate to the input.

[tigereye]

37. that's a good point, I pointed that out to my bookgroup

during the discussion of this book. But I admire his Holmesian approach? to finding things out and perhaps building some awareness, too.


What you are talking about in your last paragraph is very much the behav/cog style in some ways,i.e, "doing it makes it so", in some ways, so that you don't need to analyze it as much.

[NashVegas]

40. HT, You Have to Take Risks

What you describe may be a disease, or it may be how I felt everytime I visited my family for 15 years. (And the 10 years preceeding the time I moved out.) Like someone slipped a Bell jar over my head.

You can't reach out to other people until you can learn that it's possible to make yourself vulnerable to people who can hurt you, tell them they hurt you, and not get hurt for telling. But you can't learn that until you take the chance.