A friend of mine keeps bugging me to go to a "Landmark" seminar

[Maraya1969]

"Landmark" is the new name of a group called "Est" that I knew about in the 80's. I had people bugging the shit out of me then and now this friend, who is not obnoxious like the other ones I knew, keeps calling me and asking me to go to a seminar with her.


Everything I read about it says it is a cult and they use the people who have been through the training to do their marketing for them. It is a 50 million dollar/year business.

I just figured out why this is irritating me so much. It is not that she fights with me so much to go but she usually starts a few days beforehand and says she is just letting me know about an upcoming event. Then every time I talk to her she brings it up and finally right before they leave she brings it up again.

Yesterday she told me that she and some others were driving 2 hours to go to an event tonight. Then she called me again today and asked twice if I wanted to go, (three total times may not seem like much but add these to every time she goes and the asking gets really annoying). Plus she said a few times that I could benefit from it and today I said I am not in need of that kind of help so then she said I was too defensive. I have been defensive with her and some others but now I believe it is just because I don't want them controlling my life. I am open about my defects and my failings and maybe I am defensive sometimes but I think being defensive is better than turning yourself into a clone of what others want you to be. I already did that in my teens and twenties and I am through with it. To me it is ingenuous.

Anyone else know about this "self improvement" cult?

[Omphaloskepsis]

1. It is a fucking scam..

http://ask.metafilter.com/mefi/48046
http://ask.metafilter.com/mefi/16566

How hard is it to tell someone to shut the fuck up with the expensive bullshit wrapped in a self-help flag?

Fuck, give them a glass of purple water.. Then punch them in the face. Sorry, I just hat watching stupid people falling for dumbfuck scams.

[Zomby Woof]

2. The Nikken Cult is similar

You find out who your real friends are. If they can't take "no" for an answer when they try to recruit you (and they never do take "no" for an answer), fuck 'em. Nikken is involved in selling magnetic healthcare products - pure quackery. After the 8th or 9th refusals, they gave up - and they also cut off all contact. How fucked up is that? You are better off without "friends" like that. I know I am.

[quiet.american]

3. What can I say? I did "The Forum" and Landmark courses years ago

Got a lot of value out them. Gave my mom a "Forum" course for her birthday. She still says it was one of the best presents I'd ever given her.

I know there's a lot of "talk" around what EST and the Forum are and are not, some deserved and some not. There are some who take the courses and turn it into their religion, there are others, like myself, who took the courses, received value, had fun and moved on.

Of course, like any business, they pull in new customers through word-of-mouth marketing and hence, the big push to the course graduates to invite their friends and family to an introduction. Currently, the latest self-help fad -- the Millionaire Mind courses -- do the same thing -- four of my friends, independently of each other, are always inviting me to attend.

Landmark does apply heavy sales pressure when you attend the introduction, but other than that, it was a hoot and I didn't get caught up in any kind of cult experience through attending.

[Maraya1969]

5. I bet you went in with a higher sense of self than most people. That

is a good thing and I am sure there are others like you. But the ones that get pulled in are apparently harboring a lot of negative beliefs about themselves and their lives.


* Characteristics of participants in a large group awareness training.
Y. Klar, R. Mendola, J. D. Fischer, R. C. Silver, J. M. Chinsky and B. Goff.
Journal of Consulting & Clinical Psychology 990;58(1):99-108.

A study was conducted to assess the psychosocial characteristics of individuals who become involved in large group awareness training (LGAT) programs. Prospective participants in The Forum, which has been classified as an LGAT, were compared with nonparticipating peers and with available normative samples on measures of well-being, negative life events, social support, and philosophical orientation. Results revealed that prospective participants were significantly more distressed than peer and normative samples of community residents and had a higher level of impact of recent negative life events compared with peer (but not normative) samples. Prospective participants also held preparticipation values more similar to those espoused by the LGAT than peer or normative samples, and the three groups failed to be distinguished by their levels of social support. The implications of the findings are considered for understanding participation in LGATs and other self-change promoting activities.

Edit for link: http://www.rickross.com/reference/landmark/landmark22.html

[quiet.american]

9. That's possible. They do state up front it's not for mentally vulnerable

By that, I mean -- if I recall correctly, they stress during the intro and right at the beginning of the course that it is only recommended for those who are essentially psychologically healthy.

In any case, that's an interesting excerpt, however, when I did the courses, the people attending were by and large successful, (one pretty much had to be to afford the courses!) middle-class executive and entrepreneur types with the expected family situations, some married, some divorced, some re-married, some with kids, some with grown kids, some with grandkids. The group certainly wasn't made up for the most part of emotionally vulnerable loners. :)

I do find that in all aspects of my life, there is a strata of Kool-Aid drinkers to be found, whether it's at the job, at my church, etc. I'm not necessarily defending Landmark, because on the flip side, there's also always to be found people who abuse their "power" on whatever level it may be, and there were definitely some personality-challenged folks to be found among those who worked the different Landmark events. However again, on a personal level, it was a very interesting and overall a beneficial experience for me.

[Maraya1969]

4. I just found some videos from INSIDE THE FORUMS! They were

taken down at YouTube then taken down from GOOGLE and now they are up on this site but they were only posted 6 days ago so I bet they will be removed also unless this site is private and can fight these Landmark people

It is in French with subtitles. Landmark has been run out of France because of this documentary.


http://www.dailymotion.com/visited/tag/landmarkeducation/search/landmark%20education

[distantearlywarning]

6. My opinion

I don't know anything about Landmark, but have read some stuff about Est, and its nothing I would get involved with, personally. Even if it's not technically a cult, they mess with people's minds there, and that's not something I would care to fool around with.

Further, if I were in your position, I would feel that my friend calling me "defensive" for turning her down was just a little manipulative. It would bother me, and set my alarm bells off.

I would strongly advise you to go with your gut feelings on this one. If it seems wrong for you, you should stay away.

Just my opinion.

[Maraya1969]

10. I am definitely staying away and I think that is what is making her mad.

[Lex]

11. I had a friend bugging the heck out of me to go to The Forum

programs. She asked me over and over and over and each time I said "no thanks" thinking she would get the point.

Finally I said something like, "I'm not really interested at all and I like you a lot and don't want this to impact our friendship, but please stop asking."

And she did and we are still good friends.

Maybe it will work with you? I hope so. :hi:

[cally]

7. I'm glad that you asked this question

I had no idea that it was associated/similar to est. I also have a friend who has invited me several times to landmark forums. I'm just not interested in group classes like so I've always turned her down. She's having some hard times so I felt a little guilty about not going with her. Now I don't feel guilty at all and will definitely keep refusing.

As an aside, one of my college roommates was the daughter of one of the top echelon of EST. She had some damning stories about EST and the whole community. I would never associate myself with them after hearing her stories.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

8. It sounds like you have said...

"no thank you" more than once, and that she has not heard it. If I had to repeatedly say to someone "no" I sure as hell would get irritated. I think I heard Oprah say that if you have to say "no" to someone more than once they are trying to control you in some way, and I would agree with that.

If you don't want to go, don't. If your "friend" keeps trying to pressure or shame you into it, she is not being a friend and you need to tell her that.

I have a very old friend who response to my sharing with her that I was having a severe depressive episode several years ago was, "I can't believe you're depressed. You just need to exercise." A year later when I told her I was suffering from life-threaterning anemia and that I was being screened for cancer, her response was, "You just really need to exercise more, that will take care of your problem." :eyes:

When people -- especially friends -- don't "hear" you, it's wildly frustrating, annoying, and, frankly, insulting.