I'm thinking of joining the Marines, help.

[Cointelpro_Papers]

I've been considering it for about 3 years now, and now that i'm gonna be a senior, it has come upon me, the time to choose that is. I know the cons, and I know the pros, but I kinda need some other people to weigh in on it. So what do you DUers think.

With the war in Iraq, I don't think I will have to worry about not getting time to fight, and with Bush in AFrica, I can only hope that we send troops to Africa, because that's what I would really want to do, protect people that deserve protection, but cannot provide it for themselves. I abhor the idea of being controled by officers that I despise, but I love the idea of being about to take part in the most advanced military machine ever created, it's almost like a surreal oppurtunity that I cannot pass up.

Maybe I'll see what happens in the election, if I can wait that long. It would make a big difference, if I could once again believe in the greatness of this country.

[Dookus]

1. I would say...

go for it. You can learn a lot, have a great experience and set yourself up for a good career.

My only caveat would be my personal feeling that we are likely to see an increase in military action in the coming years, so there's a good chance you may be deployed to a war zone.

If that's the case, buck for officer really quickly! ;)

[derrald]

2. If your heart is in it, go for it

Personally, I would wait until a dem is in office. If you do, then when you go overseas, you have a 99.999% chance of coming home alive If you choose to go now, godspeed, and let us DUers know how we can send you a care package. :)

[Maple]

3. I think

you are just looking for provocative topics to post on.

Last night it was your contemplating atheism, and the night before that your insistence that dragons belonged in science-fiction.

[Dirty Hippie]

6. Hey don't be so hard on the kid

It is a teenagers job to be provocative. That is why I like them so much. They make you think about the wierdest stuff.

[Catch22Dem]

9. Where else do dragons belong?

[Maple]

10. In fantasy novels

and you haven't read this guys other posts.

[Catch22Dem]

11. Gotcha

I don't see what's so provocative about that one. I did read the atheism post last night. Don't recall if I posted there. I don't think I did.

I suspect this guy is young. When you're his age there's a lot of stuff to learn. A lot of questions to ask. Tact comes later.

[Maple]

14. He says he's 17

Check the name and number of posts.

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. Think very carefully

Also the Recruiter will tell you anything he needs to, well for you to sign on the dotted line... if you decide to join, have the promises in writing, otherwise they will screw you over.

Remember, GI bill might not be there when you leave. VA has been trashed, and conditions for personnel have gone down, in quality of life.

Also you do not get to choose assignments and you have to obey orders.

Yes you will get some training, depending on the Military Occupational Specialty, how much of it will be usable in the civilian world.

Most importanntly, unless you are the son of the head of the CIA, you cannot walk away from your commitment, for the most part... unless very specific circunstances occurr.

Oh and kid, there is no honor in war, just death and destruction... and going to Africa is not to help, but to help themselves to the oil. Those who tell you that it is fun, are lying... it is not.. nor is it a camping trip... nor is this Raimbow Six... or any other Computer game you have played.

Another adminstration, another time I would say... consider all the possitives and negatives, now I will advise you to stay out UNTIL the elections... after all what they tell you and the reality are two very different things...

Hope this helps...

[primavera]

32. Excellent points, one and all

The military is not for the independently-minded, and the Marines are the most brainwashed of the lot. A friend of mine survived Parris Island (barely) and told all sorts of grisly stories about how severe the brainwashing is. I don't mean to completely bash the military experience, I recognize that for many people who feel a bit directionless and in need of some structure in their lives, the military can be a very positive thing. But I think it can also be an incredibly frustrating, miserable experience for people who feel strongly about having their own opinions.

And make no mistake - the odds of you being sent to do bona fide humanitarian work are slim to nil. If you want to do that sort of thing, join the Red Cross, or, if you must carry a gun, join the UN Blue Helmets. US forces overseas enforce US interests, not those of in need of protection. In some happy instances, the two may intersect briefly, giving the appearance that the US is working on behalf of some poor unfortunates, but more often than not, the "humanitarian" aspect is little more than a facade justifying some less publically palatable goal beneath the surface. And if ever the interests of the downtrodden should come into conflict with the interests of the US policymakers carrying out the will of US corporations overseas, don't be naive enough to think for even an instant that the cause of "righteousness" is going to prevail, other than perhaps as superficial windowdressing to make it appear as though our motives were somehow loftier.

Now, if you're a thinking person, the discrepancies between espoused US policy goals and their execution in actual practice, and the role which you're being required to play in the whole mess will piss you off no end, but by then it will be too late: you'll be a Marine and will not be allowed to think for yourself or to question even the most unethical orders. If you're up for being brainwashed, then you'll probably get your news from Stars & Stripes and Faux News, you'll never notice any such inconvenient discrepanices, you'll cheerfully carry out irresponsible and unethical policies without losing sleep, join the Republican Party, and live happily ever after. Neither sounds like a great option to me.

[BurtWorm]

5. Reasons for and against

Against: If you have a problem with authority, if you have a problem with winger society--lots of (pardon my freedom) crackers from the Bible Belt--you're going to be one miserable Marine. You're going to be stuck in hell for however long your contract is for. So you have to be strong to do it. You have to be able to take what they dish out to you and survive it. And you may have to actually use a weapon against real human beings, especially with this cold-blooded administration.

For: If you can be Zen about it and approach it at peace with yourself, you'll have an experience that very few of us on the left would care to go through, for the reasons cited above. I know some very liberal Vietnam era Marine vets. I know some Marine corps vets whose politics are unknown to me who are salt of the earth. You could get a lot out of it. And if you survive it with your liberalism in tact and you want to pursue a political career, you'll have something asshole chicken hawks won't have. (If you're interested in writing, too, the military has produced some great writers.)

[Catch22Dem]

7. Make sure you understand what you're getting into.

Do your homework. Know what the USMC is all about. Understand what you'll be giving up. Understand what you'll be getting in return. Marines have a special camaraderie, I won't deny that.

For me, the choice was easy, I'm not gung ho. I joined the Air Force, to travel, get an education, and serve my country in a capacity which was more my speed. I didn't live in "the barracks" I lived in an apartment. (Obviously not during basic training.) I worked in an avionics lab. I worked 8 hour days. I had weekends off. For me, military service was like any other job, with a few exceptions. I was sent on several deployments, including multiple trips to Saudi Arabia. Lived in tents. Took a shit in the ground. You know, all the "fun" stuff. I was an expert marksman, but only qualified on the M-16 every other year. My workplace could not deviate from 68 degrees, no matter what the outside temp was. Oh, and I got to fly in an F-15D. Greatest experience of my life (next to my daughter being born.)

I went into the Air Force thinking, "what can I do in here, that will benefit me the most when I get out." I picked a great career field. You should really give that some consideration.

Good luck to you, friend. Let me know if you want to BS about it with me sometime. I lived on a Marine base on Okinawa for 4 years straight. I know those cats pretty well.

[lcordero]

8. As far as the Marines go, look elsewhere

They don't have their own Department, they are under the Department of the Navy. Which means that they run into money problems. Promotions are A LOT slower than in the other services which can create other money problems. You may not be guaranteed a good trade or job, which is really bad considering that if you become an infantry soldier, you WILL have all sorts of knee and back problems. In essence, in 4 years your body is going to have all the wear and tear of a 40 year old.

LOOK ELSEWHERE!!!!

[Cointelpro_Papers]

12. I think that might be what I'm looking for.

I chance to be alone for awhile, and a chance to prove something to myself. And plus when I come back and start to get into politics, I can use my infantry experience to my advantage.

[Catch22Dem]

15. WHOA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Don't go into the Corps with thoughts of "being alone" or anything to do with "myself"

This will make you hated among your peers.

[Cointelpro_Papers]

17. Yes, but it does give you ample

time to think, and all that. Their's no way I would try to do it by myself, No doubt I would need a few great freinds. But then again, I have no problem with people hating me, and neither should anyone else.

[punpirate]

16. Please explain how infantry experience...

... is going to help you in politics (except, perhaps, that people won't be able to accuse you of being a chickenhawk if you vote to send others to war).

[Cointelpro_Papers]

18. I think you'd be suprised at the numbers of people

that sympathize with veterans of the military. In my experience, it has never hurt a political career. Infantry specifically won't help me anymore than anyother positiion, sorry I portraited it that way and didn't mean to. But it does have it's unique advantages.

[punpirate]

20. What are the advantages of infantry?

[Cointelpro_Papers]

36. For one thing, it will be a learning experience,

in which I will run into all walks of life, the poor, the under privledged, and everything else you can imagine. I will be able to interact with them as peers, not as a superior. It will teach me extreme disipline, although I won't keept the disipline when I get out, I could use it if I needed to. And it will give me a chance to see exactly what it's like to fight a war, I will be in the shit, and it will give me a unique persepective on war, that only being a grunt could give you.

[lcordero]

19. ??????

Do you want to live in a outmoded totalitarian society that prices style over substance? That puts "tradition" over functionality and efficiency? Eventually they warp you so much they turn you over to their point of view.

Hint:Being in so much back pain that you can't sleep for three days while at the same time taking demerol does not "build character".

[stanwyck]

45. My son joined the Marines

and you're getting alot of very good advice on this thread. We asked our son to wait 6 months after he told us he was thinking of enlisting. He was in college and not motivated. Talk to people who have been in the Marines. Don't believe everything you hear from the recruiters. Take your time.
My son has been very happy with his decision. However, this is certainly not a lifestyle that appeals to everyone. You will have very little privacy, most of your time will be pre-scheduled each day, there is extensive physical training, and your contact with your family will be limited much of the time.
However, if you truly enjoy being part of a team, you like physical activity (lots of running), and you want to travel, this could be a good decision for you.
Whatever you decide, I wish you happiness and peace.

[laconicsax]

13. Go for it.

I have several friends in the Marines, and while they may all be pretty far right, they're some of the most honorable people I know.

[DS1]

21. Stick to the wing side if you can

otherwise get used to incredible amounts of cleaning, anally-retentive uniform inspections, pointless exercises, random acts of punishment, the usual stuff. I'm convinced, after serving on the grunt side of the corps, that they keep you at a certain level of pissed off, so when you are actually called off to some foreign land, you're friggin happy just to be getting out of the daily bullshit.

Spit-shine your boots every day and you'll be promoted faster, but you'll be rightfully resented.

MOSs are guaranteed, but fuck up in a high-tech school and they can and will drop you to grunt or cook in a heartbeat. Study your asvab, even if you think it's easy, that extra point could mean open opportunities later on. I was once offered a position doing court typing in D.C., but I realized I don't like being around punk leuitenants early on.

Besides, the corps isn't what it used to be, before if you screwed up you'd do a lot of pushups. Fine, no problem, you get a little sweaty and quite strong. Now, you get written up, because like in any organization experiencing down-sizing, the people that want to be there will screw over those that don't in a flash.

The end.

[Dirty Hippie]

22. Have you though about the Peace Corps?

.

[lcordero]

23. Another thing to think about

The 18-25 year old age group would acquire a lot of power in this country very quickly by bringing it down to it's knees. What I mean by bringing it down to it's knees is not enlisting at all and turning over to a jail rather than get drafted. It would effectively DESTROY the military-industrial complex. I feel that the military-industrial complex has denied America the opportunity to become better, more educated, and healthier. This is why I will not vote for somebody that is going to go with the status quo.
My contract with the National Guard will be over in March of 2004. I'm going to play "wait and see". If Kucinich gets elected President then I may think about re-enlisting since I think that he is the only one that may withdraw troops from Iraq. Kerry, Lieberman, Edwards, Graham, Gephardt, Dean or Clark will not be a Presidential nominee or President with my help because I do not think that they will look out for the interest of the common man.
I am entirely against putting somebody that touts their military experience in the White House. Putting somebody in the White House that's prior military gives the government more leeway as far as the draft goes. I'm definitely not ready to see my younger cousins become crippled to the point where they can't function or to have them die.

[Isome]

24. What an odd choice...

considering the moniker you've chosen. If you are familiar with COINTELPRO, how did you even arrive at the USMC as a career path? Being aware of its existence should give one pause for cause about blindly serving the government -- blind obedience is expected of all military personnel.

My own experience in the USAF was horrendous. That's not to say I didn't meet great people and/or that some great people I know don't continue to serve. However, after basic training was over, I found enlisted service to be on par with indentured servitude to imbecilic boors!

I also thinks it's apropos that you be introduced to the words & wisdom of General Smedley Butler (USMC) before waxing idyllically about "helping people" in Africa:

::.Excerpts from War is a Racket.::

For a great many years, as a soldier, I had a suspicion that war was a racket; not until I retired to civil life did I fully realize it. Now that I see the international war clouds gathering, as they are today, I must face it and speak out.

. . . Beautiful ideals were painted for our boys who were sent out to die. . . . No one mentioned to them, as they marched away, that their going and their dying would mean huge war profits. No one told these American soldiers that they might be shot down by bullets made by their own brothers here. No one told them that the ships on which they were going to cross might be torpedoed by submarines built with United States patents. They were just told it was to be a "glorious adventure."

::.Excerpts from 1933 speech.::

I suspected I was just part of a racket at the time. Now I am sure of it. Like all the members of the military profession, I never had a thought of my own until I left the service. My mental faculties remained in suspended animation while I obeyed the orders of higher-ups. This is typical with everyone in the military service.

I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912 (where have I heard that name before?). I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.

During those years, I had, as the boys in the back room would say, a swell racket. Looking back on it, I feel that I could have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents. ....

[lcordero]

25. GREAT POST!!!!!!

:toast:

[Cointelpro_Papers]

37. I'm pretty sure you misused apropros, but anyway.

It is not about cointelpro and all that, I don't care. The marine's are going to exist with or without me, war is going to exist with or without me. Now I have a choice, to see what war is, to go into it and be able to truely speak about it with knowledge. Or, I could not go into the military, and live a life that could be better, or could be worse. I hate to stick up for the military, but for the sake of fairness, I had to. It wouldn't be a career, it would be an experience. And the marines, for reasons that are relevant only to me.

[boilerbabe]

43. Apropros is just a way to say relative to a topic, isn't it?

I am sure that you, along with many of my friends over the years do have some solid reasons for being a Marine...not a one of them has ever said they were an EX-Marine...

I applaud your service to this country, but like I said in another post, the point is not whether you were "unpatriotic", the POINT IS...were you used for purposes that upon examination, may not be so noble as you were led to believe?

[Pepperbelly]

26. Whatever you do, don't believe most of what the recruiter tells you ...

When I went inton the Navy, the recruiters' ears must have been burning for several months.

[newyawker99]

27. Hi Isome!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[AnnabelLee]

28. My stepson joined the Marines

& has about a year left. At the time, he told us that he wanted to be a Marine because he felt it was a good way to serve his country & get some training toward being an aircraft mechanic at the same time. After he finished basic, he found that the recruiter had lied to him, & he would not be able to train in the field he desired.

Still, he threw himself into it, volunteering for duty attending veterans' funerals, Toys for Tots, anything he could fit in. He was given an award for New Marine of the Year (I may be wrong on the exact title, but I know it had "of the year" in it). He was offered a position as a recruiter, but only did that for two months. He told us, "I can't lie to these people the way the other recruiters do; I can't make my quota".

Recruiters lie. If you become a Marine you may be sent off to fight a bushco war. Keep those two things in mind while making your decision.

[commander bunnypants]

29. Become a Navy Corpsman-if you can handle blood

Request orders to the FMS. That way you can learn a marketable trade plus be attatched to a Marine Outfit. And once you are a Devil Doc your buddies will take very good care of you. That is what I did.

DEMMAN- You can PM me if you need more info

[Cheswick2.0]

30. you could test out the Atheist in the foxhole theory

:shrug:

If you join right now, you could do your basic this summer, and right after graduation next year you could go to Iraq or syria or Iran or Afghanistan or maybe Saudi Arabia..... North Korea? By next summer when you are ready to go the temp in those places should be around 100 fht..... FUN

[Aristus]

31. Like a lot of vets here, Cointelpro, I would say to you, do your homework

on the service first. Know what you are getting into. Neither the military, nor war in general is like a movie, with Tom Cruise grinning, or Bruce Willis wisecracking. It's tough. You'll have to take orders from people who are not as smart as you. You'll meet a lot of brainwashed "kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out" types. The military is still the final dumping ground for bigots, racists, the unemployable, and the gun-happy. People with liberal or progessive views are looked down upon. I know I sure was.

Having said that, if you work hard, obey orders, and keep a positive attitude, you can have some great times in the service.

Just don't enlist right now. As far as the Chimp goes, you are just cannon fodder for his childish John Wayne fantasies.

[sirshack]

33. I abhor the idea of being controled by officers that I despise

Probably not unusual, but will be something you'll need to get over.

[Aristus]

34. I remember walking out of the CO's office after having been served with

an Article 15. I had disobeyed an order to drive a deuce-amd-a-half full of guard troops across the post. I had been up for 24 hours straight with no sleep, and did not consider myself a safe driver. I stuck by my guns and got slammed. As I was walking out of the office, one of my buddies said to me "You're smarter than they are and they can't stand that." After an accolade like that, I did my 14 days restriction, 14 days extra duty standing on my head.

[UrbScotty]

35. Check out About.com

http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/marines/

[DS1]

38. Hello, is there anybody in there

just nod if you can hear me, is there anybody home?

Come on cow, I feeling down, well I can ease your pain, get you on your feet again

Such is is the life of corpsman, they deal with blood and pain and dying and hurt, combat sucks, combat is limbs being blown off, your best friend getting his head blown off. Combat is dealing with your best buddy bleeding to death, wanting his mommy, wondering where she is. Combat is seeing your best buddy getting his head blown off, combat is not knowing what to do about it. Combat is being given orders to charge an enemy position that you know is suicidal and doing it anyway. Combat is running towards ambushes, and seeing people get blown to pieces and screaming. Combat is not what your recruiter told you it would be.

[Aristus]

39. Breathtaking post, DS1.

Extremely well said. "Dulce et decorum est........"

[DS1]

41. thx

I didn't know what it would take, so I went to the extreme, like I usually do.

[Solly Mack]

40. NO! Now is not the time to join the military

While it can an incredible boost for those with few options and it can even benefit those with actual choices...now isn't the time.

I spend 24/7 wondering if my husband is dead. I wait everyday for his 3 minute call that lets me know,for those 3 minutes, that he is alive...then we hang up and the waiting starts all over again.

He's tired, depressed, disgusted and angry. He's lost 40 pounds he couldn't afford to lose.

The govt. has yet to honor their part of the contract and pay my husband money owed him for serving in a time of war...and they pretty much have a "fuck you" attitude about it too.

On a bright note and something that made his day.....his watch broke and his "students" (my husband is one of the security trainers) pooled their money and bought my husband a new watch because "you are one of the few that treat us like humans..treat us like we matter"

My reaction is visceral and you have to do what's best for you..but PLEASE...you honestly don't know the cons...intellectually, maybe..but in actuality..you don't. You can't know the cons until you live this life.

[boilerbabe]

42. Your heart is in the right place

You will probably end up just being a pawn of some imperialist who will send you to the wrong place for the wrong purposes. It has been done before and it will be done again. That's the worst thing ever...that a person who is dedicated to their country would be sent to say...overthrow a government that is portrayed as a dictatorship, when really it is because the person (s) in power won't let the US and the IMF,etc walk all over them...if you are seriously considering it...read at least Greg Pallast's book, The Best Democracy Money Can Buy...also anything you can get your hands on by William Rivers Pitt ---you will be greatly disallusioned I am afraid, but someone who really wants to uphold what was once a free and democratic society needs to be aware of these things.

Just remember, If you do decide to become a Marine, that is also honorable, but don't think that war protesters are against YOU...They are against the system that sends you on errands to fulfill their own personal agendae...

best of luck, I certainly do admire anyone who has some goals and direction in their life at such a young age...

XXXOOO

[dfong63]

44. this could be you

see the discussion under marine pilot jailed for refusing vaccine

you could be in the same situation as this pilot.

or if you prefer, you could be one of the hundreds of thousands suffering from gulf war syndrome (or having children with birth defects) because you followed orders.

pretty glamorous, huh?

and this is only the latest incident in a long and dishonorable history of the country screwing its soldiers. (project SHAD, atomic vets, agent orange vets, etc.)

if you join the military, you are putting your life, your limbs, your health, your future children's health, in the hands of people who don't give a rat's ass about you. and these are the people who are supposed to be on your side --- let alone the "enemy" who will be trying to kill you.

and then there's the small matter that your duty will be to kill unthinkingly, on command. instead of being the marine pilot discharged and thrown in jail, you could be that young soldier from ohio who broke into tears seeing what military arms did to a young Iraqi girl.

imho, don't do it.

[jonnyblitz]

46. Read "Jarhead" by Andrew Swofford n/t

[Droopy]

47. Go to college instead

You sound like a pretty bright person. I'd recommend college instead, even if you have to go on student loans. If you have you're mind set on the military, go into the airforce or the navy and be sure to participate in the G.I. Bill. Chances are you'll want to do something different after your first hitch.

[Cointelpro_Papers]

48. Definitely.

They only way I would go into it, was if I got accepted to the academy.

[Capn Sunshine]

49. Talk to some ex jarheads at the VA

especially the ones with Gulf War Syndrome; just to see what kind of shit you'll be dealing with the rest of your life should something go wrong while your platoon is in country.

Ask anyone with a "Semper Fi" tatoo about it, especially if they are a biker.

Then to balance it out head to your closest Marine base town and see how the spouses live while they're praying for their honies to come back from whereeverinfuck that warmongering bastard sonofabitch wants to leave 'em twisting in the wind next.

Remember Marines are the first In along with the Rangers. They are good soldiers and the most sincere and loyal guys you would ever want to fight alongside. They also don't talk much after their service, so don't expect a lot when you go on this expedition. Being the first ones in country generally means if you see shit go down, or it happens to you, its fearsomely ugly and so intense that you spend a great deal of your remaining life trying to kill off enough brain cells so that you can't/don't remember any of it 20 years down the road.