Ever slightly bothered by Henry Miller's use of the word "teats?"

[swag]

Aside from that, Tropic of Cancer was great.

But I didn't much care for Miller's ten or twenty rehashings of TOCancer.

[Radio_Lady]

1. Only in "Chorus Line" -- this song was sort of a parody of Miller.

"Tits and Ass"

It's just a great song!

[6000eliot]

2. Oh, there are more offensive words than THAT in that book!

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

3. Not really, but I don't think I was sober at any point

during the reading of that book.

[RagingInMiami]

4. More bothered by the scene where his flatmate is taking a dump

and he is sitting there talking to him. Or was it the other way around? It's been years.

[swag]

5. I think you got it right.

But it's been years for me too.

[swag]

6. I think all future editions should substitute the more urbane "tits."

[XNASA]

7. How about 'bubs'?

I had never heard of that one either before reading Miller.

[swag]

8. Good one. And how cool was "fug" in "The Naked and the Dead"?

[swag]

10. I think Gore Vidal was really onto something with that

"Miller, Mailer, Manson Line" routine of his.

[Phillycat]

9. Henry Miller is a misogynist.

Yeah, I said it.

[swag]

11. Gore Vidal agreed with you at one point during the sixties.

He probably still does.

[Taverner]

13. That's like saying Mark Twain was a racist

He was a product of his time, and in his day he was quite a feminist. But today that translates differently - you're looking at his writing from a 21st centure perspective.

[Phillycat]

16. No I'm not. nt

[Taverner]

23. How is Henry Miller a misogynist in your opinion?

[Phillycat]

24. He depersonalizes women in his writing.

He treats them as physical objects who are worthwhile only for exaggerated and ludicrously obscene sex acts. There is plenty of evidence to show that Miller's relationship with his domineering mother affected all his relationships with women in future - in fact, Miller himself admitted that. A quote from a literary journal article:

His inability to confront his mother was translated into a passive aggression that affected his relationships with other women. Throughout the rest of his life he repeatedly blamed his mother as being responsible for his inability to consummate his love for his first flame, Cora Seward, to extricate himself from his failed relationships, and for his soon-emerging pattern of escaping one woman through another. In a 1971 interview with George Belmont, when asked if his mother's influence had an effect on his attitude towards women in general, he replied, "I suppose there's a half-truth there. Nothing is as terrible as not feeling loved by one's mother, and feeling no love for her,"

Another quote, one that pretty much sums up Miller for me:

Tropic of Cancer opens with a description of "Tania", a compendium of "fat, heavy garters" and "soft, bulging thighs" who can "stuff toads, bats and lizards up rectum". Llona is a "wild ass snuffing pleasure", otherwise known as "one cunt out of a million". There is Germaine, "a whore all the way through", who Miller applauds for her devotion to her art. In Tropic of Capricorn, Francie is remembered for her "strong Scotch teats and a row of white even teeth".
Miller's women function solely as his tool of sexual pleasure. He talks about taking two women at once (Sexus), swapping women (Cancer), going right from one to another (Cancer). He is surprised when they display emotion, because he thinks of them as objects. "Imagine that! Asking me if I loved her! I didn't even know her name. I never know their names." (Cancer 107)

I could go on...and on and on and on...

[Taverner]

25. Again, you're not taking into context when Tropic was written

Treating women in any sexual fashion AT ALL was a major change in literature. Before then, women were kept, seen and not heard. By todays standard he's objectifying them, but back then this was revolutionary - to see a woman as a sexual person, not as a vessel for a child.

[Phillycat]

26. Okay.

Knew I shouldn't have bothered.

[Taverner]

27. Well it's just my opinion

You have yours and I have mine - doesn't mean we have to be angry at each other :)

[Phillycat]

29. I'm not angry.

I just hate wasting my time on people who think feminists are hysterics with conspiracy theories that everyone is out to get them.

[Taverner]

30. Hey I don't think that at all

I just don't think Henry Miller is misogynistic - I think he opened up western culture to start loving our bodies. Before Miller, the body was something that was scorned, impure and evil. Carnality was considered downright evil. Miller comes out and throws all of that out the window. Was he a saint? Obviously not, but on the whole his writing was more liberating than filled with hate. But again, that's just my opinion.

And as for feminism, there;s nothing wrong with thinking people are out to get you when they actually are which is the case today, unfortunately. The current admin would love to see nothing more than America's feminine population divided into camps of "madonnas" and "whores."

[Taverner]

12. No more than Anais Nin's use of "Sex" to describe the vagina

That was typical of early 20th century writers - overuse a cute nickname over and over again. Hemmingway did it. Miller did it. Nin did it.

Steinbeck didn't do it - and that's what made him such a genius - he bucked every trend of writers from his day.

[swag]

14. How about Anais Nin's use of the word "ensorcelled" every other page?

Golly, can't stand her stuff.

And by "her stuff," I mean her writing.

To each his own.

[Taverner]

15. Not a fan of Nin either

But she did invent a personage that was wayyy cool...

[pitohui]

22. well a lot of older writers had that usage

that isn't disturbing, not quite on the same level as pretty much calling a woman a cow!

[RedCloud]

17. I don't partake of such sexually conservative books...

Indeed.

[swag]

18. You more of a Georges Bataille guy?

[jobycom]

19. More disturbed by the imagery involved with arpeggios in Henry Miller

if anyone remembers the allusion.

[swag]

20. I don't remember it, but I take your word that it disturbs you.

[pitohui]

21. it's all unattractive as far as i'm concerned

someone had to break those barriers but if it's supposed to be sexually arousing, i don't think so, there's a lot of hostility against the body there

"teats" -- a word used to describe what a cow or a pig has -- was certainly one word that i found jarring and offensive, and no doubt it was meant to be

whatever floats your boat, i guess, no actual cows were harmed in the making of this movie

[Taverner]

28. Well we are, after all, animals

We can do a little math and writing, but in the end we are all animals.

[swag]

31. Yeah, never did find his sexual descriptions to be arousing.

[WoodyTobiasJr]

32. Marlilyn Monroe didn't marry Henry Miller

Marilyn Monroe didn't marry Henry Miller
Marilyn Monroe didn't marry Henry Miller
Marilyn Monroe didn't marry Henry Miller
Marilyn Monroe didn't marry Henry Miller

But if she did he'd have taken her to Paris
And if she did she'd have smoked a lot of opium
And if she did she'd have dyed her hair blue
And if she did she might be alive

Oh-oh-o-oh Henry Miller
Oh-oh-o-oh Marilyn Monroe
Oh-oh-o-oh Henry Miller
Oh-oh-o-oh Marilyn Monroe

Marilyn Monroe didn't marry Henry Miller
She lived outside the Tropic of Capricorn
Marilyn Monroe didn't marry Henry Miller
I don't even know if she knew Henry Miller

But if she did he'd a taken her to Paris
And if she did they'd have fucked every day
And if she did she'd have felt like a woman
Not like a photogragh in a magazine

Oh-oh-o-oh Henry Miller
Oh-oh-o-oh Marilyn Monroe

This is not a knock against Arthur Miller
"Death of a Salesman" is my favorite play
But Marilyn Monroe should have married Henry Miller
And if she did she might be alive

Cause if she did he'd have taken her to Paris
Tied her to the bed and eaten dinner off of her
And okay maybe she'd have died the same, anyway
But if she did she'd have had more fun

Oh-oh-o-oh Henry Miller
Oh-oh-o-oh Marilyn Monroe
Oh-oh-o-oh Henry Miller
Oh-oh-o-oh Marilyn Monroe


- DAN BERN