Vegtarianism Vs.... ?

[realisticphish]

OK, Loungers, I need your help. I'm writing a sociology paper, and I've been assigned the topic of vegetarianism. What I have to do is find two radical extremes on the issue, and compare them (not have any conclusion of my own, just a comparison). So, the extreme on vegetarianism is pretty much a matter of choosing a website. But the other side...

What the hell IS the other side? I don't think anyone seriously advocates carnivorism, and I really don't want to compare an extreme to a middle-of-the-road position. Any ideas on what I might do?

[Mutley]

1. People who enter contests like this...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7720569/

:puke: :puke: :puke:

[Robb]

2. The closest you might do

...I expect would be to find someone who believes vegeterianism is inherently unhealthy. :shrug:

[Phillycat]

3. They have that one raw-meat diet

I'm not kidding. Google it, you'll find it.

[billyskank]

4. I see your problem

The extreme on the other end is probably fruitarians who only eat what fruit has been dropped from the tree. But the extreme at the other end? Theoretically it would be someone who advocates only eating live animals, but I doubt you will find anyone who thinks that.

[LaurenG]

5. The Adkins Diet

It is extremely high protein, low carb and may give you enough to contrast and compare.

[billyskank]

7. Atkins

:hi: OhioBlues! :loveya:

[LaurenG]

8. I guess one could tell I've never followed

Atkins. lol Hello Billyskank. You've been so very scare recently! I'm happy to see you.:o :hi: :loveya: :hug:

[billyskank]

9. I haven't either

;)

:hug: back atcha! :loveya:

[LaurenG]

11. You are a well educated physicist and I but a lowly

office queen. I bow to your good memory and huge .....













:hide:




supply of young brain cells. :loveya:

Besides veggies don't do Atkins.

[billyskank]

13. Oh, please don't bow

;)

:hug:

[LaurenG]

14. How about a Curtsy then? BTW is that your sticky I spy above?

:D ;-) :thumbsup: :hug:

[billyskank]

15. The hug suffices

;)

Yes, that is one of mine up above. :D

[Orsino]

6. You're looking for two extreme forms of vegetarianism...

...or for the opposite of vegeterianism?

Could you approach it from a health perspective, and find opinions which state that vegetarianism is very good or very bad?

[realisticphish]

23. i suppose i could approach it from several directions

but the opposite of vegetarianism is what I was thinking. I'm just having trouble DEFINING that :shrug:

but the health perspective might work as well

[miss_american_pie]

10. Cattle ranchers?

Didn't they sue Oprah over some comment she made about beef and mad-cow disease?

[tjwmason]

12. I think that the only balance could be those who don't respect others

I'm a merry omnivore - I believe in eating a balanced diet which contains meat and vegetables. I find the two extremes irritating - not because of their proposed diet, but because of their manner of approach to others.

Despite being an omnivore, for various reasons, I frequently eat a vegetarian diet; and in the past have eaten a vegan diet - this has given me immense respect for those who from principle eat such a diet, I know in a mainly omnivorous culture it can be very difficult to stick to it.

But then I see those who respond to any metion of PETA with their (oh so witty and original :eyes: ) comment of "people eating tasty animals", I was once told that humans could exist entirely on a diet of meat (sounds pretty nasty to me I have to say). On the other hand, there are some (not all by any means) vegetarians and vegans who do try to ram it down others throats. Quite frankly, I have very little respect for either of them.

[MadAsHellNewYorker]

16. Live and let live...

...some of us are only trying to decrease the suffering of our animal counterparts and trying to help the envirorment to boot :D

:hi:

[tjwmason]

26. If only more folk could understand that motto

Live and let live isn't exactly difficult.

[MadAsHellNewYorker]

27. i mean, a lot of people just dont get it...

it applies to everything, gays and straights, blacks and whites, immigrants and natives...why cant we celebrate our differences, instead of using them to tear humans further away from each other.

[tjwmason]

30. MAHNY for President 2008.

Definitely better than any of the philosophy we'll be hearing from either major party.

:loveya:

[MadAsHellNewYorker]

32. heh! thanks TJ

:loveya::hug:

:blush:

[LeftyMom]

17. Viola!

http://www.westonaprice.org/index.html

The Weston A Price foundation promotes a diet wich in organ meats and dairy products. They actually believe that dietary cholesterol is good for you and that vegetarian diets are dangerous. Needless to say the founder of this movement died of a stroke before he was fifty, but there are still idjits who follow his teachings. This is thier bible: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0967089735/002-5722173-2446415?v=glance&n=283155

[MadAsHellNewYorker]

18. the founder of the movement died of a stroke at 50?

you couldn't make this stuff up
:rofl:

[LeftyMom]

19. I think he was still in his 40s

He was a dentist you see, so he judged societies diets based on the health of thier teeth. Many of the meat-easting societies he poined to as examples of great health have really short lifespans, but nice teeth. Of course, one will find more bad teeth in a society with a lot of old people. ;)

Eat lots of butter and liver. Have nice teeth. Die young. :rofl:

[MadAsHellNewYorker]

20. now thats a mantra to live by if i ever heard one!

:rofl::rofl:

who wants sticks of butter wrapped in liver for dinner? :scared:

[LeftyMom]

24. Sure why not

This morning for breakfast I had a pound of bacon and a big spoon of cod liver oil.


Then I woke up drenched in sweat, waited for the shaking and dry heaves to pass and had some maple pecan cereal with soy milk.

Oh, the WAP people think soy is a horrible poison too. Oh, and it kills the male libido (riiiiiiiiight.)

[MadAsHellNewYorker]

29. did you wake up right before you had to give yourself your insulin shot?

;)

oh yea, soy is a feminie product slowly destroying the machismo of men :eyes:

[LeftyMom]

31. Definitely

That's why vegan men are wussies! Really, I read it on the internets to it must be true: http://www.biblelife.org/vegan_debate.htm

[MadAsHellNewYorker]

33. umm...

i don't even have the words to respond to this :puke:

i can't even begin....sigh. This could be on FR if we change veg*n to Liberal :eyes:

[LeftyMom]

37. "Vegan children are more severely effected with stunted growth and no

muscle tone."

:rofl: Somebody tell that to LeftyKid. :rofl:

[MadAsHellNewYorker]

39. yea, its not like you were just talking about the huge growth spurt that

just happened to him either :rofl:

[LeftyMom]

43. He grew a whole size in about three weeks!

Not the shoes I figured would last until Christmas since I got them a bit big are too small after a month. I blame soy- damn that evil stuff! :P

[MadAsHellNewYorker]

45. but I thought soy left men impotent and wussy?

:P

[LeftyMom]

47. Uh..........

Definitely not. :P

[MadAsHellNewYorker]

48. uh..............

duh! lol

:hug:

[LeftyMom]

53. Hey look what I found

The Weston A Price foundation method for killing your baby!

http://www.westonaprice.org/children/recipes.html

Yep, give your infant raw cow's milk. If the intestinal bleeding doesn't kill them the bacteria will. Great idea.

I'm sure they love the liver-based homemade formula, too :puke:

[billyskank]

58. Stop deliberately annoying yourselves

:hug:



:hi:

[MadAsHellNewYorker]

59. but its fun to bash your head against a wall

:banghead:

:hi:

[billyskank]

61. Okay, I'll go give it a try

:banghead:

:hi:

[LeftyMom]

62. I'm not annoying myself, I'm laughing at stupid people

:D

[billyskank]

64. Oh well okay then

:hi:

[tjwmason]

65. Quite some difference.

But it does get a bit scary when one realises that some take it seriously. :scared:

[AlienGirl]

76. Holy shit, RAW COW'S MILK?!?! For little babies?!

Didn't that used to kill a lot of bottle-fed babies back before formula and pasteurization and sterilization were discovered? And back then, the cows probably didn't have as many diseases as they do in modern farms where they're crowded in and stressed.

Tucker

[LeftyMom]

80. Yep, even pasteruized cow's milk can kill a kid

because it causes bleeding in the intestine. That's why formula milk is made the way it is, the protien\s have to be broken down somewhat to be digestable and even then death rates are much higher for formula fed babies versus those on human milk.

[realisticphish]

21. hey

that might work!

i didn't like atkins, because it doesn't say you should ONLY eat meat (which would be the extreme opposite)

[tjwmason]

22. How charming...

:eyes:

Better go and get rid of that salad I was planning on having for supper and find some animal instead.

[realisticphish]

25. i'll probably have

a roast beef sandwich for lunch. But i'll also be having fresh fruit and vegetables.

These guys are freaks.

Ahem, i mean, they have a valid approach to a devisive issue (in case my soc prof is reading)

[uppityperson]

28. Pick a "why veggie" reason & go for opposite, lots of reasons

Here are a few reasons I can figure out for being vegetarian. Yes, there are many combinations, but these are some seperated.

healthier to not eat any animals
healthier to not eat mass produced animals, am not raising my own so don't eat animals
morally wrong to eat animals
eating further down the food chain is best for the planet
meat is too expensive so I don't eat it
eating animals is not needed, I can get all the nutrition I need from non-animal sources

[realisticphish]

34. well

i'm supposed to find particular radical opinions, as in groups or websites. And I'm not supposed to favor either opinion, rather just state what they believe, and why, for both groups.

[uppityperson]

40. google "vegetarianism dangerous"

The myths of vegetarianism (may be a good site for what you are looking for) http://www.mercola.com/2000/apr/2/vegetarian_myths.htm
The vegan threat to homeland security (not really) http://pandagon.net/2006/01/27/the-vegan-threat-to-homeland-security/

[mzteris]

88. oh god - not

MERCOLA!

He's a BIGGER quack than Fallon (if that's possible!)

[Bossy Monkey]

35. Atkins n/t

[Fleshdancer]

36. Those people who sued Oprah?

either that or Atkins I suppose. :shrug:

[realisticphish]

38. well the thing is

they were arguing for meat to be included, not the exclusion of vegetables (not even Atkins says that)

[tjwmason]

42. I can't conceive of why one would want to exclude meat.

This is the problem.

I can understand why vegetarians don't want to eat things which involve the killing of animals, I can understand why vegans don't want to eat animal products at all. On an intellectual level they make sense - even though I happen to hold a different perspective.

However, considering the consumption of vegetation to be immoral is such a bizarre idea I can't intellectually grasp how anybody would hold to it.

Apart from the wackos linked by LeftyMom I can't see how you could get such a position.

[realisticphish]

46. true

i eat meat, but i eat it in moderation, and with fruits and vegetables. I don't see why anyone would oppose vegetables either (except, ironically, for the dead fall fruit only people).

I think I may go with LeftyMom's link

[Mutley]

50. Well, I did feel bad when I killed my houseplant.

:7

[tjwmason]

52. You evil nasty person.

What did that poor house-plant ever do to you?

Vicious, cruel Mutley.

:P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P

[Mutley]

54. It was an accident!

:cry:



His name was Bob, and he was a good daylily.




:D

[tjwmason]

55. HHHMMMMM

Not impressed - you'll have to do better than that. :P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P

[Mutley]

56. Well, Bob and I know what really happened so THERE!

:D :P

[tjwmason]

63. Once the D.N.A. tests are in.

The truth will be out - and you will be vilified for every more.

C.S.I. can do wonderful tricks these days. :P

[Mutley]

66. They won't ever let me own a plant again!

:cry:

You'll never take my Shirley away!


This is not my actual picture, but the other one was. :D

[tjwmason]

67. Let that be a lesson to you young lady.

:P

[Mutley]

68. Alright.

[Radical Activist]

41. The agenda of the meat and dairy trade associations.

They are truly the radical groups, but aren't recognized as such because of their economic power.

[realisticphish]

44. no, see

they aren't opposed to vegetables categorically, they just advocate their products. Think of them what you will, but they're marketing, not opposing something on moral, ethical, or political grounds.

I need someone that opposes vegetables entirely, or at least as close as I can get to that

[Radical Activist]

49. You might be surprised

I suspect their agenda is more extreme than you think.
They do misleading studies and public propaganda campaigns, defend unethical business practices that harm public health and the environment, and they do oppose healthier eating habits. Where do you think all the bogus arguments about vegetarianism being unhealthy come from? It might make for an interesting argument to present their viewpoint as extremism.

[realisticphish]

51. they argue against

VEGETARIANISM, but they DON'T argue against vegetables, as in eating them at all. That's what I'm trying to get :shrug:

and, i'm not saying their marketing isn't unethical, but it's still marketing (shitty as it may be)

[Radical Activist]

60. I guess

you can define the opposite of vegetarianism anyway you want, but that sounds like a somewhat simplistic way of doing it.

If vegetarianism is viewed as a way to eat healthy and show respect to the world around us then the opposite would be defined as a very unhealthy diet that is destructive to the environment and other life on the planet. That may or may not involve opposition to eating any vegetables.

[realisticphish]

69. that's exactly what i'm NOT supposed to do

Vegetarianism=helathy, other ways-healthy. Not only do I not agree with that, but the whole point of the paper is to analyze opinions about what is eaten and why, not which way is better. Your assumption that anyone who is not a vegetarian doesn't respect the world around us, etc, is in fact the simplistic view.

I have no problem whatsoever with vegetarians, or vegetarianism, but this paper is supposed to be an objective one.

[Radical Activist]

71. You wrote:

"So, the extreme on vegetarianism is pretty much a matter of choosing a website."

That doesn't sound particularly objective, as though any vegetarian website is the extreme. A truly objective argument approaches a viewpoint on its own terms, not the authors. It sounds as though you're rejecting a vegetarian's definition of what its polar opposite would be, and instead using the definition of someone who eats meat. Neither viewpoint is without its own bias. But if you want to make the strongest, and most objective, argument you have to address what a vegetarian would say the opposite of vegetarianism is, not just what you would say it is from your own perspective.

[realisticphish]

73. i dind't mean ANY veg. website

i meant there are any number of radical veg sites. They're not hard to find.

My definition is as follows:

On one side, people who reject meat. On the other, people who reject vegetables. How is that in ANY way biased towards people who eat meat?

And, no, I shouldn't use any internal definitions. Using what a vegetarian defines as the opposite is framing it from a context of vegetarianism, which is not what I'm doing.

[China_cat]

57. How about the Inuit societies whose diet was based

almost solely on fish and whale blubber?

[realisticphish]

70. interesting thought

I'll have to check that out. I don't know if they were against veggies, per se, but that may a different way to approach it. Thanks!

[China_cat]

72. Most of them didn't even know what veggies were

until they encountered European civilization.

[realisticphish]

74. see

it would be an interesting chance to look at the health of a society that subsisted entirely on animal products; might put to rest a LOT of debates.

[AlienGirl]

79. They still ate some plant matter

Semi-digested vegetables from the stomachs of herbivores, seaweed that washed up on shore, lichens (which contain algae and fungus--the fungus isn't a plant but the algae is) and other marginal sources.

If I recall correctly, most of the societies who followed the very high-fat, high-protein diet had a high instance of heart disease and kidney problems, relative to populations that eat less fat and less protein. However, one can't rule out genetic causes for that, so there's no clear answer about the effect of mostly-meat vs. mostly-vegetable diets.

Tucker

[realisticphish]

81. interesting

I do know that the paleo evidence shows that the transition from hunter/gatheror to agrarian societies is HIGHLY correlated with poor oral health, but that's via grain, not vegetables in general.

[China_cat]

82. Here's a couple sites that might point you in the direction

you want to go.

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/010119.html
http://www.highnorth.no/Library/Culture/or-ea-me.htm
http://www.discover.com/issues/oct-04/features/inuit-paradox/?page=3

[LeftyMom]

83. There was an article in National Geographic a few months ago

about subsistance hunting of marine mammals. You may be able to find some info there. I do recall that there were some quotes from the huntiers and thier families about the health benefits of certain animal foods (walrus skin and subcutaneous fat, if I recall correctly.)

[realisticphish]

85. cool

thanks a LOT LM! :hi:

I'll credit you in my paper :D

[LeftyMom]

86. No problem

Let me know if you need some pro-veg stuff. Needless to say I have that sort of thing piled to the cieling and coming uut my ears.

[no name no slogan]

75. Vegetarianism isn't the extreme on this issue

If you REALLY want "extreme", think "Fruitarians". And yes, they do exist.

They are people who will only eat fruit-- i.e., things like potatoes, beets, carrots and the like are out, because they are root vegetables. Many practicers of Jainism (a religion in India) are fruitarians.

[flvegan]

77. Radical extremes? ALF v. FBI

You can base your "vegetarianism" base on the idea that many folks don't eat meat/are vegetarian for the sake of the animals. That said, what are the two extremes of taking the animals into consideration as to one's diet? Well, some folks claiming to act in the name of the ALF blow shit up. That's pretty damn extreme. The flip side is the FBI that has named the ALF as one half of the most dangerous and sought after domestic terrorist group. Not only is it rediculous, it's extreme.

Would make for a kick ass report in my opinion.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

84. ALF must be stopped!

Sorry, couldn't resist. :D

[AlienGirl]

78. The other side would not be one that excludes vegetables

You won't find anyone who advocates excluding vegetables from the diet, because everyone eats some plant matter. Even the Arctic Circle native people ate the (vegetable) contents of caribou's stomachs and seaweed.

The true opposite of vegetarianism would be the belief that meat is *essential* and necessary and that nobody can survive without it.

Tucker

[realisticphish]

87. that's one way to look at it

i guess it depends on the scale you're looking at. If you use one variable, i.e., meat, then that would work. But i'm trying to approach a multi-variable scale, meat vs vegetables. Vegetarians: all veggies, no meat. So i was trying to find someone with all meat, no veggies, or at least as close as i can get... also, someone who was fanatical about said issue.

But, i'll take your point into consideration. it's not due for a while, so i have some time to consider this