Question about Ivy League admisions...?

[NJ_Lib]

My daughter just informed me she would like to attend UPenn... Since she's aiming at Pre-Med, I'm pretty clueless so I was hoping for some advice...

She has always been an honor-roll student and now in 11th grade, she runs between a 3.85 and 4.00 GPA... She's not a genius who studies in Spain for the summer and speaks five languages, just a kid who's worked hard in school her whole life... I'm a single mother on a low-income...

Does she has a single chance for a scholarship at UPenn and if not, what about a place like Drexel or Penn State?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated! Thanks!

[LostinVA]

1. UPenn has a huge endowment

If she gets in, she'll get alot of financial aid.

[NJ_Lib]

4. I heard last year UPenn had the largest volume of applications...

... ever... Only a single child from my daughter's school was accepted, Brian Tran, a kid who certainly deserves it but is so far above the rest in his academic achievements, it seems hopeless to the rest...

[LostinVA]

5. UPenn is a really good school

And, it's so much harder to get into college now than it used to be. However, that shouldn't mean you shouldn't try. LOts of good schools in PA and the Philly area... St. Joseph's, Drexel, etc.

[GalleryGod]

2. Penn has a strict "Needs Formula" that calculates Scholarships

They've "loosened-up" a bit just recently. you might want to consider St. Joseph's University in Phila for "Pre-Med" it's a fine sciences school and about $100,000 cheaper per four years.

[NJ_Lib]

3. Thanks, I'll mention that to her...

... Someone else suggested she do her Pre-Med elsewhere and then apply to UPenn for Med-School... She's pretty flexible about where she attends, I am just very worried about the money... I've been told so many things, some say that only genius kids who speak five languages get full scholarships these days, and then other say it will be no problem for her to receive scholarships with that GPA... But I wouldn't know one way or the other about this... I'm praying the latter is correct...

[LostinVA]

8. A great GPA and you being a single mom means financial aid money

If she goes to a private school or a state school with a large endowment. Seriously, I honestly think most of the money will work itself out... although textbooks are $$$!

[LostinVA]

6. Ha! I mentioned St. Joe's, too!

Philly's a great town for a student to live in, too.

[NJ_Lib]

16. That's exactly what she's thinking... Philly will be great for a...

... young student... Mom is not as excited about downtown Philly and her little girl, I personally prefer Princeton since we do live here, but she won't hear of it... At this age, I can't exactly demand she do anything either so I have no choice but to wait it out and pray... Maybe I'll get lucky and she'll be offered a scholarship in the boonies somewhere and then she'll have little choice... Hehehe, evil I know, but I'm so worried...

Thanks for the great advice...! :)

[LostinVA]

23. Good luck! To both of you!

[LynneSin]

7. Has she considered Princeton?

As someone from NJ maybe that might be a good second option to UPenn

[brentspeak]

14. If anything, UPenn is a second option to Princeton

They're both "Ivy League", but Princeton is probably twice, maybe three times, as hard to be admitted to than Penn.

[NJ_Lib]

17. I think Princeton is a lot smaller so their acceptance...

... rates are much lower, as you pointed out... As far as tuition goes, I think they're pretty even, about $40.000 per year...

[Callalily]

9. Don't let the tuition

discourage her. UPenn's endowment is $4.37 billion. Most of their scholarships will be need based, and many with specifics regarding distribution, i.e.: female, sciences, you get the picture.

She should apply to ANY school that she thinks will be a good fit for her. Dollars will be there, especially with her grades.

[barackmyworld]

10. ivy league schools never offer merit-based aid

...unless your daughter is an AWESOME quarterback. However, need-based aid is very generous and schools will all describe their aid package before she has to decide which one. You can also haggle schools to get more money by explaining special circumstances (i.e. family emergency, medical costs, etc).

Is she eligible for National Merit consideration (I believe this comes from your PSAT score)? National Merit Scholars are often offered full scholarships at excellent state schools (like UT-Austin).

[NJ_Lib]

19. We'll know soon...

... what her SAT scores will look like... It's sad when we teach our kids that you can work hard your whole life but have one bad day and you're screwed... Actually, that is how real life works... :)

Thanks for your advice...! I'll pass it on to her...

[nutsnberries]

11. If she'd like to *go places*, I suggest she apply to Kudzu U-

it's Ivy League and looking for hard-working, motivated students.

(sorry. :hi: )

[Reverend_Smitty]

12. I had a friend in HS who got an almost full ride to Princeton

She was number 1 in our class and her SAT's were excellent as well. She got all the money because of her performance in school and the fact that she had 2 other sisters in college at the same time. Those Ivy League schools get more money than they know what to do with. If she gets accepted, chances are they will offer her a nice package.

I must stress to you how important the SAT's are, if her scores aren't up in the upper 1300's-1400's (I'm not sure what that translates to on their new scale) they won't even look at her. It's unfortunate but thats the way most upper crust colleges go by. As much as I hate those Princeton Review courses (because they are unfair to the kids who can't afford to take one), they definitely help boost scores. One of my biggest regrets was not scoring better on mine. I had a nearly perfect GPA in HS but my SAT's were only a 1080, it limited me in my college opportunities to be sure.

If she doesn't get in to UPenn, there are so many other great schools in the Philly area that will give her great deals because of her economic status. Generally the more expensive the tuition, the more money they will give out

[NJ_Lib]

15. That is just unfair, isn't it...? Study hard your whole life...

... have a near-perfect GPA, but score low on SATs and you're screwed... She has been preparing for this pending SAT desaster for a long time... She did a PSAT and got the study reviews and computer program but the bottom line is, she's not great at taking tests... Most of that GPA came from pure hard work in school to compensate for her poor test-taking skills... She should have taken the SATs already once this year but due to a misunderstanding with her guidence counslor, she missed it but she is registered to take them on June 3rd... She'll take them again next year so we'll see, but we're not expecting a 1300 or even 1200 ("old system" grading)...

Thank you so much for your advice and encouragement... Appreciate it...! :)

[Reverend_Smitty]

18. it really is

I've never been a great test taker either but I've always performed well in school. I got accepted to a state school and graduated with a 3.8 GPA last week, so I'm sure she will be happy and do well wherever she goes. I have to take the GRE's in the fall, they don't let you use a calculator on the math section! (I'm screwed...I do well on the verbal portions but math...not so much) so I'm hoping grad schools don't place as much weight on these scores as undergrad, considering you've already "proved" yourself in college

[NJ_Lib]

20. Congradulations on Graduation...! You must be so...

... excited...! Good for you for choosing to go to grad school because a BA is just not that impressive these days... So sad... It used to mean something when I was young but now it's the equivelent of what was the "associate's Degree"... Remember those? :) Do they even offer such a waste of time thing anymore?

Good luck in all you do, especially with that nasty math section this fall... :)

[Reverend_Smitty]

28. thanks

it was pretty much beaten into our skulls the moment I entered my major in college that we should go to grad school. They told us that 60-70% of the people in our field have their masters and beyond so if we wanted to be marketable, we should get one as well. Personally I'm excited about grad school, (not so much writing my thesis) but I actually enjoy going to school...it beats working!

it's funny how a BA has become pretty much useless these days considering less than a third of the US population has one...Just goes to show what a bad economy and outsourcing will do to a country

[brentspeak]

13. A lot of people in my high school were/still are accepted to Ivies

or similar so-called "elite" colleges. About a quarter of them didn't want to deal with the expense, so they did the smart thing and accepted full scholarships at Rutgers or Penn State. (At least, that was my class a long time ago; my hometown is a lot richer today, so fewer kids are probably going to state colleges in lieu of Princeton or Duke).

[NJ_Lib]

21. I think that's the right decision for most...

If you can go totally free to a state college, it's better than going Ivy League adn being in debt for most of your life... At least I think so... As long as you obtain your Masters you should be OK... You just can't stop at a BA these days...

[Pacifist Patriot]

31. I feel like a dolt now.

I was adamant about going to a private university while my twin sister went to a state school. Guess who had the higher paying job upon graduation with no student loans to pay off? Bitch! :)

And of course now I'm a total hypocrit. My husband and I swore our kids would go to our alma mater and have the same fun we did. (I got my BA and my MRS degrees) And then reality hit. If we're going to be able to afford that, an unknown wealthy relative will have to die and leave us a windfall. So we've purchased pre-paid tuition for all three of our kids with the state university system. Guess what? I'm not such a snob anymore. :)

Five minutes out of college the name of the institution isn't nearly as important as the degree itself. At least in most circles.

Dr. NJ_Lib's Offspring will be Dr. NJ_Lib's Offspring no matter where she went. Best of luck to her!

[NJ_Lib]

33. You are so right about...

... well, everything.... I totally agree with you...!

May your three kids grow up to be wonderful people and may you never need that unknown wealthy relative to actually die... (Wouldn't it be nice if they shared while they were still alive?...) You know, so we could actually thank them... ;)

[LoZoccolo]

22. I always hear that...

...a lot of scholarship money goes unclaimed but you have to go look for it. I remember there being some big book at the library listing all these scholarships, but this was of course in 1991 or 1992 so this kind-of thing may be on the web now for a fee. But then again, if it's at the library then it's free, and the librarians would probably be able to guide you to it.

[Callalily]

25. One shouldn't waste

their time, money or effort pursuing these "so called" scholarships. Criteria is usually so bizarre, (green eyed, left handed golfer). That's why so few are eligible. Your best bet is to check out what financial aid the college can offer. Most schools will give you that information even before committing to apply. Also . . . any dollars received from outside sources will diminish the financial aid you will be getting from the college. You're pretty much guaranteed those scholarships will be renewed from year to year if you continue to meet their criteria. Obscure scholarships come with no guarantee of renewal and typically the dollar amount is just not worth the effort and lose of real financial aid dollars offered by the college.

[NJ_Lib]

26. You're right, there are all kinds of scholarships...

I couldn't believe what the counslor was saying, ones for tall people, ones for short people, some that target specific nationality, race or religion and so on... I was like, "who the heck would offer a scholarship for "tall people""? The counslor was like "Tall people who are now rich and remember the hardship of being so tall"... Ummm, Ok, I could think of a lot worse things to grow up with but thanks...

[speedoo]

24. What about Rutgers?

It's a fine state school and since you live in NJ the tuition, etc. would be much lower and financial aid would still be in play. These days, with the astronomical cost of college, I would counsel anyone looking at college to apply to their state university as a general rule, unless there is some strong reason not to.

If she is looking at medical school later on, the total college cost is going to be huge and you should consider all "high value" options and Rutgers should be at the top of that list.

I would also caution you about the current "hot" Ivy league school. which might be Penn at the moment. Brown was "hot" back in the late 80's when my daughter really wanted to go there, as did everyone else. Back then, Penn was one of the easiest Ivies to get into. (I have a grad degree from Penn, so I have no reason to diss the University.)

[Phillycat]

27. I go to Penn

Nearly all the scholarships are need-based. No matter what, it's going to be really expensive. Everything at Penn is expensive - the activity fees, the books, even the application fee. :) In return, you get one of the finest educations in the world. You will be hurting no matter how much aid she gets, I would think. But it is worth it, and my opinion is the sacrifice is justified because once she graduates with that Ivy-league degree, she can go anywhere she wants.

Now, doing undergrad somewhere else (like maybe St Joe's or Villanova - Drexel is a waste of money IMO) and then doing her med school at Penn is not a bad idea - HOWEVER. She'd better graduate with a 4.0 or something close to it from whatever institution she chooses and get a stellar score on her MCAT's. Penn has an extremely competitive med school. What were her SAT scores? This might be a moot point if she can't get in right out of high school anyway. Nothing against your daughter at all, but without a 4.0, her SAT's and activities are going to count for a lot. Is she involved in a sport? Charity organization? Band/chorus? She also needs to interview well.

Good luck to her and you!

EDITED to change "merit" to "need" in the first sentence. Brain fart.

[slide to the left]

29. if she wants pre-med

Baylor in Texas, while a right wing school, is the place to go in the state. Tuition is about 21k per year. I know thats high, but its not 40. There is also a large out of state population.

[Pacifist Patriot]

30. It can be done. Sometimes not easily, but it can be done.

I had scholarships, financial aid from the university based on need, work study program, student loans and more than a handful of jobs. Some were at home over the holidays and some were part-time while I was at school. I got my bachelor's degree in the customary four years at a small elite private university. Not Ivy League but a division III "Ivy League" of the south institution. I declined Harvard's offer because I am allergic to snow and temperatures below 55 degrees.

There are definitely tons of scholarships that go overlooked. I had some scholarships that paid out $50 and some that paid out $1,500. It all adds up!

And when your daughter matriculates, drop me a PM with her address on campus and I'll be happy to spot her pizza and beer money every once in awhile. ;)

Edited to add: Obviously she shall have to wait to spend it on beer until she turns 21. Before then I'll trust her to spend it only on pizza.

[Bossy Monkey]

32. I went to Penn some 20 years ago; some of my friends are still paying off

their student loans. Although it is a top flight school, she can get an excellent education almost anywhere. I can't in good conscience recommend going that far into debt for the extra prestige and am inclined to echo the person above who recommended Rutgers. If she finds Rutgers too much of a pushover, she can always transfer to Penn. (I graduated Penn spending only two of my 3 1/2 undergrad years there, owing to being a very persistent and presumably persuasive caller on the College Office.) Back then, there wasn't a formal premed program; most people aiming that way majored in Biological Basis for Behavior. I think they have a premed major now.

This may interest you. It's just a bunch of people on the Internet talking, so needs to be taken with the usual grain of salt, but is a discussion of overrated and underrated colleges. Penn is turning up a lot: http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=267&page=1&pp=15
(Eventually I figured out that WUSTL is Washington University in St. Louis; hope that helps)

A lot of people find the US News rankings problematical, but it's better than nothing:
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/rankindex_brief.php
I can't find anything ranking premed programs, but you'd figure it would be there somewhere. There's a very, very detailed Custom College Finder in the middle of the page; might also be helpful.

[Nikia]

34. Good colleges usually offer good need based packages

Most Ivy league schools offer good need based financial aid packages. There are other non Ivy league schools that do also. When reading college literature look for words that say something like "Meets entire finanical need". Also look at their stats on percent of students offered need based aid and average aid package. Unfortunately, most of these schools include full Federal subsidized loans (no interest until graduation) in their package. I don't think that these are a bad deal, but if she will need loans for medical school, she could have a huge debt at the end.
I paid less than $3,000 per year out of pocket (included room and board) at a $25,000/year school, graduating in 2000, with the help of financial aid. Some students had even better aid packages.
It was funny because when I graduated, some student's parents at the graduation parties actually asked my parents why I wasn't going to a state school since they knew we were poor. The truth is if I had gone to a 4 year state college in my state, I actually probably would have had to pay more.
Your daughter might want to consider some safe schools though. There are a lot of good students with high test scores and GPAs who have some super achievements who apply and some of whom are turned down. If she wants to go to a good medical school, it might be better that she is not entering at the bottom of the admissions stack either. I was a biology major, with no intentions of going to medical school, and found that the premed students were ridiculously competitive in my biology classes. I am not saying that she couldn't do well, but she should consider that, especially if she will have to work a bit. Sometimes, I think that if I had gone to an easier, less competitive college, it would have bettered my chances for graduate school.