Question for Christians: If Jesus turned water into wine . . .

[philosophie_en_rose]

why are so many Christian groups against drinking alcohol?


just curious, really. I've never understood it.


So, what would Jesus drink?

[maxsolomon]

1. back then, wine WAS among the few things it was safe to drink

safer than water. beer was also safe.

because we have clean water now, we must stop drinking alcohol because pleasure is sin.

thanks, st. augustine!

[philosophie_en_rose]

9. That explains fundie dislike of Jesus hair, then.

Fun = Bad.

[KittyWampus]

27. Also, Puritans who first colonized here drank beer as their main liquid

they didn't 'trust' drinking water.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

30. Of all the things to blame St. Augustine for, Prohibition is not one

He lived during the wine-as-beverage-of-choice era.

[maxsolomon]

34. i blame him for making pleasure = sin

not specifically for being anti-wine.

[Love Bug]

2. They claim the greek word for "wine" in the New Testament

referred to something called "new wine" -- in other words, grape juice. At least that's what I was told in my fundy days. I'm not a greek or biblical scholar, so I don't really know if that's true or not.

[philosophie_en_rose]

4. interesting.

still, I don't see why Jesus wouldn't just make the water clean. Grape juice doesn't sound all that safe, either. At least not until the alcohol develops to kill germs.

I'm basically an atheist, so I don't have a religious opinion, but it seems iffy.

[AlCzervik]

14. well if they think that then isn't it possible that the word

"Crucifixion" could have meant a verbal smack down instead of what they interpret it to mean? I love their selective literal interpretations.

[Proud_Democratt]

24. In Germany, new wine (Federweizer) is 3 - 5 weeks aged.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

29. Not true at all, according to my classicist friends

The word used in the New Testament for "wine" is the normal ancient Greek word for...."wine."

The fundy "scholars" are indulging in ex post facto translation.

Besides, the Last Supper was a Passover Seder. Passover is and always has been a spring holiday. Grapes are harvested in the fall, and there was no refrigeration 2,000 years ago. It may not have been a fine vintage at the Last Supper, but it was definitely fermented after months of sitting around. (That was my Lutheran pastor father's response to fundy-tinged Lutherans who wondered why he used wine for Communion.)

[Xipe Totec]

39. You shouldn't drink a single drop of wine

So dip your finger into your glass, and flick the drop of wine away.

The rest is fair game.

:beer:

[Dangerously Amused]

3. I have always wondered, do fundies think Jesus was celibate?

If so, what do they base that on?

[philosophie_en_rose]

6. Sex = Bad. Jesus = Good. Therefore, Sex = Not Jesus.

:shrug:

[Coventina]

12. Misogyny plays into it as well. Women = dirty

:eyes:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

31. It would have been odd in those days for a 30-year-old

Jewish man to be unmarried. In traditional societies, marriage is something your parents arrange for you some time in your teens.

[JVS]

5. Drinking at all or drinking in excess?

And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit--Ephesians 5:18

[philosophie_en_rose]

7. drinking at all.

Like prohibitionists.

[Proud_Democratt]

26. The Prohibition.....the catalyst for the

American Pentecostal movement.

[Sequoia]

32. and the rise of corrpution to the max.

I've always felt that The Prohibition was the reason the Depression went on and on.

[skygazer]

8. This has nothing really to do with the question

Just an observation that every Catholic guy I've ever dated has told me how he got hammered on the sacramental wine as an altar boy. :rofl:

[matcom]

10. and some of them simply got hammered

as alter boys :hide:

did I just say that?

[Coventina]

13. .

:spank:

[skygazer]

16. Oh, my goodness!

:spank: :rofl:

[Rabrrrrrr]

40. Oh, yes! You saw the opportunity, you took the path less travelled,

and you went there. You WENT there!

:applause:

[philosophie_en_rose]

11. well. if it's good enough for Jesus . . .

;)


:scared:

[supernova]

15. A lot of the protestant churches

got caught up with the temperance movement in the late 19th Century. Too many men would drink up their paychecks on Friday nights, leaving nothing to take home to the wife and kids for rent and groceries.

[philosophie_en_rose]

18. Sounds like a deadbeat problem; not an alcohol problem.

Just kidding. I'm sure that many men at the time really needed to drink to cut the edge from their lives. (Working in those days could be deadly and depressing).

But it does seem like the temperance movement blamed the drink, rather than address the problems. After all, a sober deadbeat is not any more responsible than a drunk one.

[supernova]

21. To a degree that's true

but alcoholism was a disease back then too, just not recognized as such.

And people like Carrie Nation made their names busting up bars. Of course, if we didn't have them, we wouldn't have had the birth of the women's movement either.

[xmas74]

23. We have Carrie Nation Day in my area.

We get drunk and give toasts in her honor at the local bars.

[WolverineDG]

35. The problem was also that

they'd come home drunk & beat the crap out of their wives & kids. The temperance movement actually had its roots in an attempt to stop domestic violence at at time when women & children were considered property.

dg

[Proud_Democratt]

25. Or giving money to the church.

[tjwmason]

17. Because they're a bit wierd.

Seriously though - there are Biblical injunctions against getting drunk, which some groups take to (i.m.o.) excess. Also, I personally perceive in some groups a leaning towards the (from a Catholic perspective, heretical) notion that there is a dichotomy between flesh and spirit where flesh is bad and spirit is good - thus everything which is enjoyed by the flesh (including drinking) is to be suppressed.

My own views are more like those of Hillaire Belloc, however:

Wheree'er the Catholic sun doth shine,
There's always laughter and good red wine,
At least I've always found it so,
Benedicamus Domino.

[supernova]

19. That must be the Greek strain

of philosophy that runs through xtianity.

I don't find that split between flesh=bad and spirit/mind=good in the small amount of Jewish thought I've been exposed to.

I fervently think we missed something there.

[philosophie_en_rose]

20. Seems a little sacreligious.

Good enough for Jesus, but not good enough for them? :shrug:


I like your philosophy, though. :)

[xchrom]

37. they are paulists -- not christian.

and there are too many of them.

they have no joy.

[Left Is Write]

22. Because they don't want anyone to have any fun.

I say this as a woman who has enjoyed a conversation with her pastor over beer in a sports bar, and who attended a Christmas season martini party with one of the social groups at church. :D

[Lydia Leftcoast]

33. And I attended a church in New Haven that served sherry at

coffee hours, although the sherry was occasionally replaced by mint juleps in the summer.

My current church serves sherry and finger foods after concerts and major feasts.

[Cannikin]

28. So what you're saying is, God turned the water into Welch's?

[anarch]

36. "The Son of Man came eating and drinking,

and they say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners."' But wisdom is proved right by her actions."


- Matt 11:19 and/or Luke 7:34

Anyway, it's only a certain contingent of protestants that go off about drinking alcohol. Now the Muslims, Hindus, and Buddhists...they seem to be mostly down on intoxicants. :shrug:

[cobalt1999]

38. You're right...

"There is a devil in every berry of the grape." - The Koran

If true, I'm chock full of devils by now. :)