Did Anyone See The South Park episode on the Morman church?

[THUNDER HANDS]

I watched it last week and couldn't really believe that is how the Morman church came about.

A guy, John Smith, claims to find a new version of the New Testament in America, but it can't be shown to people, so he decodes it using a top hat and two stones.

And thus, a new religion was born in America.

Does anyone know if this is actually something close to how Mormanism was founded?

If so, wouldn't that make Mormanism a cult? Or, at the very least, a really really DUMB religion (the running joke on the episode was that you'd keep hearing the word 'dumb' as in dumb,dumb,dumb,dumb - dumb whenever a character would describe Mormanism).

It's scary to think that there's an entire state - Utah - that is wholly controlled by the Morman church. Shouldn't the U.S. government step in and stop them.

If for no other reason than the fact that they're worshipping a completely idiotic religion and enforcing laws based on their warped views of what God wants?

[Loonman]

1. More or less true

After Mormons came to my house, I read up about Mormonism.



Wacky shit, but who am I to judge. So long as it makes them happy.

[veganwitch]

2. my boy was/is mormon

and he thought the episode was hilarious. i think trey parker must be mormon because its a running joke (orgasmo, anyone?)

i know theres a salamander in the mix somewhere as well. crazy religion

*goes out and worships tree*

[Drifter]

3. I think it actually started ...

in Upstate New York (Western), either in or near Geneva.

Ron L. Hubbard had it right. If you want to make some cash, start a religon.

Cheers
Drifter

[Fridays Child]

14. Palmyra, I think.

nt

[ixion]

4. yeah, I saw it... thought it was hilarious...

but as always with South Park, they make a point, that people are entitled to believe whatever they want to. The problem always arises when those people believe that everyone else should believe it, too, at which point trouble ensues.

that aside... Mrs. Harris, smart smart smart smart smart, Mr. Harris dum dum dum dum dum :-)

[GOPisEvil]

5. I'm not a Mormon, but I think you're being insulting.

Calling someone's religion dumb isn't a very tolerant thing to do.

But yeah, the origins of the LDS religion are somewhat suspicious, but can anyone say the book of Mormon is any less suspicious than The Bible or the Koran? It's all based on faith...

edit - changed a word

[THUNDER HANDS]

10. i think Mormanism is different from Christianity

Okay...look at this set of "facts" I gleamed from this episode.

Mormanism was an offshoot "of" Christianity - because a "new" testament was found.

Not in the middle east, where, you know, logic would dictate it would be.

But in America - a little under 1800 or so years after Jesus' birth and death.

Then, the guy discovers this testament, but can't read it since its in code.

Of course, he can't even SHOW anyone else his discovery. So he gets out a tophat and puts the testament in there. Then gets two stones and uses them to "translate" the texts.

I mean, really now. Would ANYONE who knew this is how a religion was founded take it seriously?

At least Christianity had the son of God. Islam had the profits of God and Judiasm had folks who talked to God.

Mormanism has a guy with a hat.

[GOPisEvil]

15. Yeah, but who were the prophets?

You just give them more creedence because they've been around longer and they're from the Middle East. By the way, why is the fact they received messages from God any different from Joseph Smith saying he received messages from God? How do you KNOW Joseph Smith didn't receive instructions from God? Also, how do you know what the prophets said is what is actually represented in the Bible. Are you fluent in Aramaic? SOMEBODY had to translate it.

The bottom line is you are criticizing a religion because it isn't old, and was founded in the US of suspicious (in your opinion) origins. Just because a religion has been around a long time doesn't make it any more correct. For all we know Joseph Smith was right.

Edit - actually, I think the book of Mormon is bunk, too. But if someone REALLY believed it, who am I to call them dumb? They're just exercising their faith.

[THUNDER HANDS]

19. personally, I think they're all lying

But in the realm of world religions, Mormanism just seems like it was something that was created by a college student cramming for a term paper on how to create a religion.

"Oh look, I found the lost new testament, but I can't show it to you. I'll just translate it using my nifty tophat and seeing stones and then go door-to-door trying to convert people."

I mean, wow. The scary thing is, a lot of people believed him.

[GOPisEvil]

20. I'm not disagreeing with your thesis on Mormonism...

...I think it was a load of crap from the beginning. Like you, I would have laughed my ass off if someone had told me Smith's line of stuff.

But, I wouldn't insult people who practice the religion who accept these things as a matter of faith. I guess that's my point.

[THUNDER HANDS]

21. i understand what you mean

And maybe if the Morman church wasn't running an entire state I might feel it was a little more harmelss than what it's made out to be.

Not to mention the history of the Morman church and the native americans.

[GOPisEvil]

23. You know...Sean Reynolds posted an interesting factoid a while back.

I think now that Mormons make up less than 50% of the population of Salt Lake City. That struck me as very unexpected.

But, I live in a state where the ultra-religious run things, too. They're called Southern Baptists. :-)

[THUNDER HANDS]

26. I'm glad I live in NY

Where all religions live in peace and harmony - and virtually ignored by a majority of New Yorkers.

[thom1102]

36. I believe that Mormons believe that Christ

Appeared to early settlers, and lived among them for a period of time, and that is what the Book of Mormon is all about. Most Mormons I have known (I knew quite a few in the Navy), have been reluctant to discuss their religion with me, and that the appeal of LDS was their focus on the family and family values.

[Liberal Classic]

32. South Park insulting?

Shirley, you jest!

[GOPisEvil]

38. I was referring to the Rat, and stop calling me Shirley.

:P

[THUNDER HANDS]

39. ba-da

DUM.

<rimshot>

[gratuitous]

6. Dum, dum, dum-dum, dum

Yupper, South Park pretty much told the story. It is gauche in the extreme to poke fun at anyone's religion of choice. Truly. Really. You shouldn't do it.

<giggle>

[Logansquare]

7. They also believe that after death men become gods

of their own planets. And men/gods will have multiple "spirit wives," and that the native Americans are actually a lost Israeli tribe, etc. The wackiness doesn't end there, and Mormons tend to be rather reluctant to discuss some of this with outsiders.

But as they say, a cult is just a religion that hasn't got a university or a football team. So, I guess its a relgion.

[robertarctor]

8. Read Fawn Brodie's account

Fawn M. Brodie wrote No Man Knows My History: The Life and Times of Joseph Smith, the Mormon Prophet in the late 1940s, and it got her excommunicated from the LDS church. It's all in there, including the top hat with the two stones (called "urim" and "thummim") and plenty of other wacky shit. If Smith were alive now, he'd probably be fronting a bad nu-metal band a la Fred Durst.

[noonwitch]

9. It's not really a cult

Christian fundamentalists think that everything that isn't their religon or judiaism is a cult.
A sociological definition of the word cult means a small group. the modern meaning is of a group that uses manipulation and mind control techniques to recruit it's members and keep them under the leader's control. I don't think either definition applies to mormons, who have achieved mainstream status in many communities. I liked the point that the kid made at the end of the episode about how maybe it's silly, but he's got a good family and they don't hurt anyone and they have a lot of fun together, so if being a mormon brings that, why worry about the sillier points?

Christianity has some pretty strange ideas, when you really think about it. Not so much the actual sayings of Jesus, but some of the practices. My mom went off on me in my more wiccan days because she felt that using a knife in your religious practice was "violent". I told her she was pretty judgemental for someone who monthly practices symobolic cannibalism (communion). I also explained to her that my atheme was not sharpened and not used for cutting anything, but to conduct energy. She looked at me like I was crazy.

[Fridays Child]

22. The biggest problem I see is how they attempt to control women and...

...how they regard them as sexual resources. Women are given duties--the relief society, care of the children, and so on--but they are not allowed to hold any positions of influence in the hierarchy in the church. Of course, this is similar to traditional Christianity. As for their cult status, it's been observed that the difference between cults and religions can be found in the size of their bank accounts.

[MojoKrunch]

40. After being raised Roman Catholic, I assure you...

the rest of you all belong to cults.
:D

Thankfully the natural Skeptic in me won out very early on and I've considered myself an atheist since I was 7, so the Pope actually *hates* me.
lol

IIRC, the title "Mormon" was originally a negative epithet taken from the "angel Moroni"(?) portion of Smiths "vision" story.
Church of the Later Day Saints is what they really are.

And wasn't there a woman who was very much a part of the beginning of the LDS?
That whole religion strikes me has hysterically funny.
Except where it pisses me off what with the old men taking 13 year old brides.

Mojo

[maggiemay]

11. Suggested Reading:

"Under the Banner of Heaven" by Jon Krakauer.
It is a good account of the history of Mormonism, as well as the religious fundamentalism. Very interesting...

[SheilaT]

12. Under the Banner of Heaven

by Jon Krakauer is a must-read for anyone interested in the Mormon church, its history and some of its less savory aspects. I'll refrain from commenting on the validity of the religion, but we have long had a problem in this country with people who cannot separate their presonal private religious beliefs from the public sphere. George Bush and John Ashcroft are only the tip of the iceberg.

[Kolesar]

16. Thanks for the reference

I would have never known this were it not for the DU. (I never watch South Park).

[Fridays Child]

13. Close. It was actually started by Joseph Smith, based on Masonic...

...rituals. He was quite the whack job, with his golden plates, the angel Moroni, and so on. Among the Mormons' stranger beliefs is that, if they do everything just right, men and their first wives (men can still be married to multiple women in the spiritual realm) will ascend through three levels of heaven to become Mr. and Mrs. God of their own planet. Adam and Eve are Mr. and Mrs. God of this planet. By the way, if confronted directly about this nonsense, they will not admit that it's true. Nor will they readily admit that they wear special underwear, called temple garments. They say that they remain tight-lipped on these and other topics in order to shield their beliefs from the ridicule of evil non-believers. But, in reality, they know that if the truly insane aspects of their beliefs were generally known, they'd never get converts.

There's lots more, like temple recommends, baptism of the dead, and secret handshakes (really!). The only thing that stops most people from realizing that Mormonism is a cult is its size and the money and power it wields.

[onehandle]

17. Quiet! I'm getting an update...

[HERVEPA]

18. All religions are cults

Some are just a lot bigger than others.

[mopinko]

24. dangerous wackos if you ask me

plural marriage is still alive and well. teenage brides are common. coersion is common. lots of kids on the public dole, tho they are loyal rethugs. to me, a cult is where sex is part of the religion.

[truthspeaker]

25. quote

quote: "It's scary to think that there's an entire state - Utah - that is wholly controlled by the Morman church. Shouldn't the U.S. government step in and stop them.

If for no other reason than the fact that they're worshipping a completely idiotic religion and enforcing laws based on their warped views of what God wants?"

How is that any different from any other religion?

Mormonism (aka LDS) was started by a man claiming he had found and translated some golden tablets, but the tablets were then destroyed so no one else saw them.

Judaism was started (sort of) by Moses, who claimed he had been given two stone tablets by God with God's laws on them. But Moses then smashed them, so no one saw God's writing.

Christianity was started by a man who claimed to be the son of God (or possibly by people who claimed Jesus was the son of God after his death).

Islam was started when Mohammed claimed the angel Gabriel had given him the word of God.

See a pattern here?

[HereSince1628]

27. This thread betrays interesting things about human nature

and the need to protect "ourselves" from ideas and beliefs that "we" don't understand.

That sort of anxiety is one of the basic traits of the conservative personality as recently discussed in a metanalytic study titled "Political conservatism as motivated social cognition" by Jost, Glaser, Kruglanski, and Sulloway and published in the Phsychological Bulletin Vol 129 (3) pp 339-375.

The persecution of the "mormons" in New York, Ohio, Missouri, Illinois, and "deseret" was exactly the sort of thing the originator of this thread called for.

This thread merely points out that here on DU we are not immune.

[THUNDER HANDS]

28. I don't want them kicked out of worshipping

whatever it is that they worship.

I want them kicked out of the government positions that they own and control in Utah.

There is supposed to be a separation of church and state in this country and the mormon chruch IS the state in Utah.

[HereSince1628]

34. I think I understood what you were saying

I agree there should be a separation of church and state, but I also recognize that people are religious, and also that tolerance is a progressive principle.

Reconsider your original post...

You admit that you didn't know much about "mormonism" which is substantiated by getting Joseph Smith's name wrong, but then you describe "mormonsim" as an "idiotic" religion. That isn't a statement that you disagree with its principles and so wouldn't join it. Its a perjorative statement about mormonism. Why did you write that?

It's hard to take your judgment as being based on an informed opinion. Rather it seems to be based on limited, not quite accurate, information that made you feel/believe that mormonism somehow conflicts with your system of beliefs.

So, why would a conflict in belief cause you to write what you did? Maybe to let us know that you are mainsteam, not part of some idiotic religious group. Maybe you did it to announce your uncertainty and to invite others to write things that would make you feel more secure about your disbelief. Your call for government intervention seems to suggest you feel in some manner threated by local government dominated by members of one religious group.

And those two maybes are consistent with how "anxiety" shifts everyone toward "conservative" behaviors. As I said, no one seems immune, even us at DU.

BTW, Utah's constitution was approved by Congress, and as a member of the Union, Utah's laws and regulations, like every other state's, must work within the limits of the US Constitution and enforcement of federal laws and regulation.

on edit:typos

[Loonman]

29. No, of course not

People can't even handle a thread about the Mel Gibson Jesus movie like adults.


Probably the same people who wear leather shoes while protesting fur.

[pansypoo53219]

30. AND

they gots special 'protective' holy underwear.

[WoodrowFan]

31. yep

over-simplified but true. I think they were called seer-stones or some such. common tools for having visions, divining water, etc.

[no name no slogan]

33. Yep, most of it's true

I went to a small, private liberal arts college affiliated with a popular mainstream protestant church (ELCA, for those wondering-- the Lutherans), and one of our general ed requirements was a course on religion. I chose to take one called "Religion in America", which included some study of the Latter Day Saints. We even had a couple of "missionaries" come in and speak to the class.

It was very interesting to say the least. Although it did little to swing me away from my own athiest/agnostic bent, it was nonetheless informative.

Also of note, Joseph Smith's church split in Missouri, and a good part of it stayed behind, while Brigham Young led the remainder to Utah, aka "Deseret". The folk who stayed behind became the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (RLDS), and are a separate denomination from the Mormons. The RLDS has become more "mainstream" in its beliefs, and not as reliant on the Book of Mormon for its faith (although they still use their own version of it).

I really liked the episode, too, and especially the point at the end: it doesn't really matter whether or not your faith is based on facts, but how does it make your life (and the life of others) better. If more religions thought like that, we'd all be better off.

[Sting]

35. Native Americans came from Jeruselum...

and Jesus was born in Missouri. LMMFAO. That episode was hilarious, but it wasn't as funny as the LOTR episode.

[kodi]

37. just leave my Bokonism out of this.

Verses 2-4: In the beginning, God created the earth, and he looked upon it in His cosmic loneliness.

And God said, "Let Us make living creatures out of mud, so the mud can see what We have done." And God created every living creature that now moveth, and one was man. Mud as man alone could speak. God leaned close as mud as man sat up, looked around, and spoke. Man blinked. "What is the purpose of all this?" he asked politely.

"Everything must have a purpose?" asked God.

"Certainly," said man.

"Then I leave it to you to think of one for all this," said God.

And He went away.

Live by the foma that make you brave and kind and healthy and happy

(even if you have to lie to yourself.)