Overheard Conversation-Women who hate women

[rbnyc]

After a day of Xmas shopping with my son, we stopped at a restaurant with a heated garden where he could get out of the stroller and run around a bit. There were 2 women having dinner back there, otherwise the place was ours.

My son ran up to the women a couple times and they were very sweet and friendly.

Then I put my son in the highchair and we had dinner.

The 2 women went on with their dinner and conversation--of course I could hear everything.

At one point one of the women asked the other if she had many close friends. She answered, "I have a small, select group of close friends, most of whom I've known for a very long time. But I have very few women friends. I hate women. They are so competitive and backstabbing. And they can be so fake. You never know what they're hiding behind their smiles. Are they really mad at you and not telling you? Men are just up front with everything, no guessing."

I've heard this kind of thing before, mostly from other women, and it's always bothered me. First, because it perpetuates a stereotype. But also because I've never had this problem with women, and I wonder why.

None of the women I meet and get close to fit the above description. Is it just that I'm naturally drawn to people of substance? Is it because I'm out of the mainstream? Is it because bitchy, backstabbing women would never have anything to do with me in the first place because I'm a freak? I mean, is there really a culture of women who are actually like this, but I never see them for the same reason that I never see Republicans--I live in New York City and gravitate toward educated, creative, and good-hearted people?

And is this really a gender thing, or is it a problem in mainstream culture in general?

DU women and men--how do you feel when you hear this kind of description of women? How does it relate to your experiences with women? What do you think?

[supernova]

1. Well, Renee, first of all you're a lovely person to be around

if only virtually. :hug:

But I think you answered your own question. You are authentic, therefore you self-select for others who display authenticity. And I try to do the same. I think that's generally true for most who post on DU. I haven't met a person yet who was demonstrably different in person from the way they behave here.

But to answer your question, yes there are some really awful people out there.

edit: So it isn't surprising to hear these women talk like this, sadly.

[rbnyc]

2. Thanks for saying such nice things.

Feeling is mutual.

This description of women just bothers me everytime I hear it, and I want to scream, "It's not true!' but then I think there's a whole world that I just don't deal with, maybe this is what it's like for them.

:scared:

[supernova]

4. Yes, it is

As for where it happens, I've mostly encountered the behavior they describe in the corporate world.

The further up the ladder you go, the less humanity you can run into. Sure there are some great people around, I've met a few and even work for them now. But it's just so easy to run into the backstabbers and the liars. People who have "issues" work them all out on the job, and there are days when it feels like people get rewarded for this behavior with promotions or raises and such.

[raccoon]

42. I've noticed this a lot, mostly in the workplace, too. nt

[LaurenG]

3. I have heard this before, however, I tend to trust women

and I am sort of goofy so I really feel love for them until or unless they give me reason not to. Same for men though.

I don't pay any attention to people who don't want to talk to me, if there is a problem with me they can discuss it among themselves or with me if they are so inclined.

I too think that if you're happy and really focusing on your own stuff you don't see too much of that with anyone except maybe the way you got to see it. It makes me roll my eyes :eyes:, and then I remember, that's their deal, thank goodness I don't feel that way, what a burden. :hug:

[crispini]

5. There are good women and then there are catty women.

My worse corporate experience ever was in an office with 100% women. A couple of the women were real, hardworking and supportive and goodhearted. The rest were mean soulless bitches who were completely ready to stomp on you or read you the riot act for the smallest percieved infraction of the rules. They were too busy trying to make themselves look good and get ahead to have the smallest iota of considerations for others.

Wow, I'm glad I'm not an admin anymore. When you're at the bottom of the corporate food chain, your life is hell.

[supernova]

7. Amen crispini!

Admins get real crap from people, esp. the other corporate women in the office.

I am definitely glad I got out of admin work for that reason alone.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NewJeffCT]

8. I've heard this from women before

I've heard from more than one woman where they absolutely hate it when working in an office that is all women, or with a vast majority women.

However, as a guy, I guess I just don't notice it and tend to think of some women are good, some bad... just like with men. Maybe it just stands out more among women to other women?

[crispini]

17. I think I used to believe...

that women should "have your back" especially in the workplace because, hey, we're all girls here right? Solidarity, sisterhood blah blah blah.

Came as a shock when I found out it wasn't true.

[NewJeffCT]

31. I wasn't shocked about that...

I figured a woman could stab another woman in the back just as well as a guy could stab a guy.

I used to believe certain ethnic groups maybe watched each other's backs more often (growing up with an Italian mom, I used to hear stories about "paisans" and the like), but I don't think that is even very true anymore - I know my Chinese wife absolutely would hate to work with another Chinese person again in the future. Before she came to the US, she was even warned numerous times that most Americans are very helpful, but to watch out for other Chinese. And, I've certainly seen that in action, to my regret.

[raccoon]

43. I've observed it myself, and heard it from other women too. nt

"Maybe it just stands out more among women to other women?"

Maybe, or quite likely lots of women are nicer to their male co-workers.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

9. There are shitty people of both genders

What is not surprising at all is that you'd hear a woman say this.

Think about it for a second. As a woman, you're probably brought up to make friends with other women. Thus, any woman's experiences with other women are going to most likely be greater in number than that of her occurances with men. By the simple law of averages, if all people suck, but you encounter more women than men, you're going to have a lower opinion of women than you will of men.

[raccoon]

44. Good point. nt

[edbermac]

10. Depends on the woman...

A female friend who worked for a major financial institution told me on more than one occasion that she HATED HATED HATED working for women; did much better working for a man...

:shrug:

[Patiod]

11. I hate this stuff

AT least I've never been fired for not wanting to sleep with the boss when i worked for women (which did happen once when I was 24 and worked for a man).

I've worked with total psychos of both genders. (One boss yelled at me for crying, saying women were "too emotional" - I wondered to myself why turning bright red, screaming, and pounding on the desk weren't also categorized as "emotional" behaviors.)

I think the poster who said that women are more likely to associate with other women and therefore have bad experiences with women rather then men nailed it on the head. I watch my S.O., (whose friends are admittedly unusual, since they are actors, albeit hetero guys) go through a lot of the same nonsense I hear ascribed to women - backstabbing, two-faced double-dealings, the works.

My girlfriends are my rocks. I don't know what I'd do without them. Mostly good hearted, sensible women, a few flakes thrown in. All well-to-do, blond-streaked, go-to-the-gym, big house on the Main Line "types" -- most of the stereotypes you might associate with being evil, but actually kind, generous good souls. I have been blessed, but then again, the "what-have-you-done-for-me-lately" types wouldn't have much use for me.

[Lex]

12. I think difficult people are spread evenly between men and women . . .

usually you get what you tend to put out there for people.

[Rising Phoenix]

13. like attracts like

[Draill]

14. I think it depends on the women in your family.

In my experience, the experiences I've had with the women in my family (not good) have colored what I expect from other women. This has caused me to have those pesky preconceived notions, which often become self-fulfilling prophecies. Now that I'm older, I try to remember that *I* have issues that may cloud my ideas about other women and wait for a little more experience with each specific woman before I make a judgment. Sometimes I feel I'm successful in this and sometimes, not. Of course, this is all just in my experience, others' results may vary. ;-)

[nini]

15. It's descriptive of human beings. not just women

there are good and bad in both sexes. They're just not finding the right people for friends.

[CornField]

16. Something similar at a family reunion

I asked my nephew if he had a girlfriend. My niece (his sister -- 18, pregnant and unmarried) piped up, "No, and he better not have one! Women are nothing but trouble! Evil!"

You couldn't have scraped my jaw from the pavement. Never in my life had I ever saw a woman so down on the female species.

BTW, she had a daughter who I'm sure is also learning how horrible women are.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

18. I think it's projection

The women who say that tend to be like that themselves, at least in my experience. Nasty, aggressive men start yelling or get physically violent. Having been socialized differently, nasty, aggressive women put on a smile and do emotionally hurtful things.

Good-hearted, non-aggressive people of both genders don't do either.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

29. Bingo

Have a beer. :beer:
PS: There's no hidden meaning behind my offer.
:D

[wildeyed]

32. I think that, too.

If a woman seems nasty and backstabbing to me, I either ignore her or give it right back to her. So now her perception is all women are nasty, but really, many of us are not 100% nasty, just reacting to her nasty vibe. If I meet someone I think is genuine and interesting, I may try to pursue a friendship, or at least a happy acquaintanceship with her.

[Darth_Kitten]

19. I've seen both genders.....

at my workplace be bitchy/gossipy/annoying/nasty/etc.

You wouldn't believe the stereotypical annoying "female" behaviour I see at my workplace practiced by certain males. I've been on the receiving end so I have no tolerance for any kind of mean-spirited, petty behaviour.

If women think men are more upfront about things, then they will be in for a rude awakening some day. :(

That said, I work mostly with women and I tend to gravitate towards the smart, hard-working gals. The petty, vindictive grouches and bullies I try to avoid (but they don't try to avoid me, or others who make them insecure)

[Orangepeel]

20. people project

my bet is that the woman you overheard is catty and backstabbing and fake, so she thinks all women are.

[rbnyc]

26. good bet.

I think that the things that bother us most about other people are the things we don't like about ourselves. You're right.

[Bassic]

21. Well I have a few female friends who think the same way

They tend to be disliekd by other women as well partly because they don't mind telling them what they think.

I've never tried to actually understand any of it, I think it would be a waste of brain power.

Even my fiancée, whom I consider to be very uncomplicated, has the ability to abandon every scrap of common sense and logic and still be mad at me for not anticipating what she wants.


So when I hear stuff like that, I just tune out and politely acknowledge whoever is speaking in a noncommittal way.

[dpbrown]

22. It's because you like babies

I never did get around to posting a picture of my baby the other day.

[rbnyc]

25. Show me the baby! (nt)

[dpbrown]

37. You talked me into it!

Looks just like me...lol

[rbnyc]

41. So beautiful!

Thanks for posting.

:loveya:

[RevCheesehead]

23. Territorial women (and men) are people I avoid.

It all comes from their inner insecurities, which terrify them. Rather than deal with them, they lash out at others.

Believe me, I see this ALL the time.
Yes, even in church. (ever try to challenge a UMW group to try something different, or use the church kitchen for something?)

[Lilith Velkor]

24. I think you have been lucky

I haven't, so I've met backstabbing assholes of both sexes. It's not a gender thing.

I've noticed an increase in this sort of behavior since it's become less socially acceptable to get into fistfights. But it could be just me.

[skygazer]

27. Honestly?

I have more male friends than women friends. The women friends I do have are wonderful friends and I value them highly. But I have found more women than men who tend to do some of the things that annoy me in a friendship. For instance, in my experience, a lot of women seem to hold grudges and I don't see that so often in men. I know women (my sister for one) who have held grudges for 30 years over something so trivial it's pathetic. I've never really known a man to do that - most men I know when they have a problem with someone, they either stop being friends with them or they have it out and then it's over.

I realize not all women are like that and I also realize all men are not like that as well. But of the people I've met, I've tended to become closer friends with, and stay friends with men longer. However, I don't ever go on the assumption that because someone is male or female, I can predict what sort of person they'll be. I have kind of a masculine streak in me anyway and that may be why I relate well to men.

I'm sure that answer does nothing to clear things up for you and it has managed to confuse me as well. :silly:

[El Fuego]

28. Me too

My best friends are my male friends. I have female friends but the friendships seem to be superficial.

I went to an all girl party recently and all they could talk to me about was my hair. (They thought my hair looked great because I had just straighted it.) I'm glad I have my guy friends who know that there is more to me than just my hair, that I have tits too.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

30. i have more male american friends and more indian female friends

i am sure there is a systematic reason for this..but i dont know what it is~!

[Maine Mary]

33. I've been far more wounded by women then men

Men, I can take or leave, but it's women in whom I invest my emotions in. And all too often I've been very hurt by them. It seemed to begin when I hit puberty and was the first girl in my class with large breasts. Though I was very shy and did not provoke it,I got alot of attention from boys. BTW I was a new girl in school, our family having moved from NJ to Maine...So I dressed differently too (Maine is always about 3 years behind in clothing styles) therefore the girls had another thing on me. That and I knew no one. I tried to make friends w/various girl groups all of who shunned me except this one group from near where I lived. Apparently they were having problems of their own being from the more rural area of the school district. All 5 of them made up the girls of one grade in this rural area and had known each other since kindergarten. They slowly began to accept me but there was never a time I could say I wasn't walking on eggshells with them. Hey, they were on the bottom of the girl totem pole... it was nice for them to have someone lower. I did become quite close with one of them in my senior year but she "dumped" me when her best friend Gail came back from Connecticut.

I could go on and on- my working life in shoe factories were just as miserable. We women who depended on our piecework wages couldn't afford to become too emotionally attached to each other (I learned the hard way) because whatever work came your way was fought over. (some work had more profitability then others) Looking back on it now, it reminds me of "Survivor"

It has nothing to do with "substance". Women of substance, if I'm understanding you correctly, (educated and/or well off?) can be just as vicious. I've traveled in that world as well. As a Maine State Rep. It's usually for different motives. Some may not like a bill I'm putting forward or a vote I had recently made was not liberal enough. The MO is usually different such as a whisper campaign about how my bill will have every landowner in the state shutting down his/her land from public recreational use. Which was ridiculous but people on the fence about an issue can be swayed that way. OK, that wasn't the best example because men do that too BUT it's worse when or more importantly, HOW women do it. And as far as my appearance I felt like I was back in Jr High and High School. Having only owned jeans and tee shirts for years w/shoe factory work, I desperately needed some decent clothes for the legislature.So I went on a shopping "spree" at Goodwill and for a little over 90$, I had a start. Luckily my shoe factory stitching skills came in handy for once and I transformed old stuff into some decent little outfits. But my first year in the legislature women ALWAYS noticed if my skirt was a little too short or if there was a little cleavage showing. It made me so self conscious that for the remainder of my years there, my clothes looked like something a 70 yr. old would wear. And yet I STILL was accused of using my looks anytime I had some kind of victory. :grr:

Luckily though, in the legislature I had a core group of 4 women friends and 5 others who hung out with us occasionally. All of them were bewildered and did their best to defend me. One of the 5 actually confronted one of the main culprits and she walked away w/her tail between her legs; leaving me alone for the remainder of the session (And she lost her re-election bid) I was very touched by that.

OK I've gone on waaaaaaaaaay to long. I finally just want to say that women who are wary of other women may have good reason. Maybe they've been wounded as I have. Or maybe they're one of the mean ones who must have some hidden pain somewhere too. Going back to the Totem Pole analogy; women are still being oppressed even here in this country. If there is always someone above, you're only outlet is someone below. It is my belief that if you choose to waste too much of your time dwelling on the below (though it may make you feel better) You'll never reach the above.


BTW this is not directed at you but just another point within the discussion. Which btw I thank you for bringing up. Sorry I went a 'little' ;-) beyond the point of the original post.

[Book Lover]

34. Well, yeah, but then we graduate high school

and get real lives. I do not get women who spout this bullshit...

[Maine Mary]

36. You would if you walked in my shoes

Because I was once like you.

[JohnnyCougar]

35. My advisor sort of fits this mold.

Most of the women in my program can't stand her. She is super-critical of them and embarasses them in front of the class sometimes. She treates men totally differently. I have always got along with her fine, and so have the other guys in the program.

My guess is there are some women who can't get along with other women,
There are some women who can't get along with other men,
There are some men who can't get along with women,
and men that can't get along with other men.

The world has all of them. You just can't generalize and say "all" of one group does one thing.

[Jamastiene]

38. In real life, it hits the nail on the head, a lot of the time, but not

always. I have had a lot of women backstab and hurt me in real life, but there have been some truly great women friends along the way too. I would have to vote 50/50 on whether or not what those ladies were saying is true. Sometimes it is, but sometimes it is not too. Saying that "ALL" women are like that would be totally stereotyping women though. :shrug:

[LaraMN]

39. I'll admit, I had a much easier time with male roommates than female ones.

The gals got moody and would play mind games about stupid crap, rather than be upfront about their issues with one another. The guys I lived with later were slobby and impolite, but all I really had to do was say "the apartment is a fucking mess! Clean it up," and they'd do it- no dirty looks, no bitching behind anyone's back. I wouldn't say that I ever "hated" the women, though; they were all my friends, just more pleasant to deal with outside of cohabitative circumstances.

[JackDragna]

40. Damn straight.

That women pegged other women dead-on. Of course, men have equally appaling faults. The easiest thing is to just invent a third sex that isn't so bloody annoying.

[gardenista]

45. Here's my theory, for what it's worth...

I believe that most women are wonderful, trustworthy, and loyal friends. However, some can fit the description of the woman you heard in conversation. I believe that they project their own personalities onto other women and have a very hard time finding trustworthy friends.

The upshot is, you attract people of a similar personality type, so you are surrounded by good women friends. Some others don't have the same experience, because they expect everyone else to be like them. Their loss.

I became very familiar with this viewpoint as I was growing up, based on a female relative's take on the world. She was very influential in my life. As I got older I realized how manipulative she was, and I tested some of her theories and found they didn't work for me. Once I developed my own personality and friendships, I realized what an unfortunate world view she cultivated. It took me a long time, but I now have solid, wonderful friendships with all of the women in my life. Even her.