so, my son wants to be a Mormon

[knowbody0]

he gets up at 4:30 am to go to seminary every day b4 school. he naps after school for three hours, gets up for dinner at 6:00 then starts his homework, often till past midnight. i asked if he would like me to go to church with him on Sunday and he said i didn't dress properly for their church. he is 14 and in ninth grade. this is his journey and i truly support his exploration, but i have this strange feeling about it. like instinctive maternal protective suspicious with a short circuit. i know he's dog tired and going through a growth spurt, but we are not "connecting" lately. it's been a month.

[pitohui]

1. he's 14?

sorry -- be a parent & put yr foot down

if he still wants to be a mormon when he is not impressional & hormonal okay but if you can save yr son why wouldn't you?

why support this sort of exploration?

[knowbody0]

9. when he asked for permission

i gave it on the condition it did not interfere with school work. your words are resonating in my thoughts now, feeling that this much attention is brainwashing my child. thank you.

[Missy Vixen]

2. They can't even talk to him without your consent

I grew up down the street from a Mormon stake. Tell him that he will not be visiting the church without you, and that any conversations about converting to the LDS religion will be held with you present. Do not back down on this rule.

It's MHO, but the early AM classes are affecting his schoolwork as well. They should stop.

Julie

[knowbody0]

10. i love you JulieRB!

i have called his sponser for a sit down tomorow

[ghostsofgiants]

3. Check out the espisode of South Park about Joseph Smith and Mormonism

Some of the details are apparently off, but the basic points are accurate, according to this article.
http://www.i4m.com/think/southpark/first_vision.htm

[madinmaryland]

4. He wants to be a moran?

:wtf:

Oh, sorry, i think i need glasses.

Support him in what he wants to do, as difficult as it may seem. my son is 14 also and just started high school. Learn what you can and make sure you don't alienate him.

:hi:

[knowbody0]

55. we have to love the morans'

"hard" work

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

5. Kill him now....

(Just kidding) That would scare the hell out of me. Take him to an art museum on Sundays.

[Redstone]

6. So, your son wants to be a moron. Sorry, I couldn't resist. Seriously,

14 is WAY too young for anyone to really know what they want to do with their life. I suspect that someone is taking advantage of your son's youth.

I truly believe that intercession may be called for in this case.

Redstone

[Roland99]

11. I would have to agree with this sentiment.

[knowbody0]

13. thanks, Redstone

im an excatholic, bornagainsavage myself, and fear ALL religion. see my above posts.
knowbody

[AlienGirl]

52. Depends on the person

Many people have an idea of their core spiritual beliefs by that age. Ask around a group of Pagans, most will tell you they knew what they believed by fourteen or so.

Tucker

[jim3775]

7. Tell him about "temple garments" or "magic underwear" as

Howard Stern would say:D. They are required to wear it.

http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon044.htm

http://nowscape.com/mormon/undrwrmo.htm

Edit:This looks like a good place to start for real info Exmormon.org: Thinking about joining mormonism?

[KitchenWitch]

12. Gives new meaning to the term "Lucky Drawzzzzzzz"

[knowbody0]

14. this really ought to do it.

thanks, im laughing so hard right now.

[Pretty_in_CodePink]

20. Thanks for the links.

Ones I remembered reading by didn't keep. These should help.
Freaky.

[NNadir]

42. I never knew about the underwear, but what's a TBM?

It's in the link. Totally Bored Mormon?

[AntiCoup2K4]

69. "True Believing Mormon"

means you always wear the Holy Underwear, obstain from all alcohol, caffeine, and other drugs, and accept the doctrines of Joseph Smith as holy scripture.

[kick-ass-bob]

96. what is the point of this underwear?

:wtf:
Seriously - what is its purpose?

[hfojvt]

8. I sorta like the Mormons

but I do not care for their dress code or their materialism or their right wing politics. Still the girl I wanted to marry was nominally a Mormon. I am totally into family history as the Mormons are supposed to be (although the ones raised Mormon often are not). I do not care for his schedule. It sounds like not enough sleep for a 14 year old. Has he been to other protestant churches? How did he get started with this?

[knowbody0]

18. his best friend

the seventh child in a family where the dad left for work one morning and never came home, leaving mother alone. kids at the time were 1,2,3,4,5,6&7. ive known her for 6 years and admire and respect her.

[hfojvt]

23. that is another bad part about their theology

deliberately creating large families. It is a little bit much for people to handle, all those young kids. I hope the church helped her out.

[philosophie_en_rose]

15. My suggestion is to broaden his experiences.

Maybe taking him to other churches or exposing to places where he can make new friends will make him less clingy to the LDS church.

[knowbody0]

21. we've done this

he and his sisters have checked out every church in the community, but lost interest quickly in each one.
im thinking the underwear thing should set him straight, but im having a sit down with LDS dudes tomorow.

[RandomKoolzip]

16. I went through a stage similar to this when I was 13-14.....

My parents were, uh, hippies, for want of a better term, and were quite permissive. Right around puberty hitting, I ached for some discipline and order in my life, and joined the Boy Scouts. I also harbored hopes for a time to go into the seminary (that I didn't believe in a god was a bit of a stumbling block, but....) I think that I felt like such an outcast that I was looking for fellow outcasts and I ended up scraping the bottom of the barrel, socially. I longed to be part of a group....maybe your son is feeling the same way.

After having to deal with all the unpleasantness involved in scouting and after trying LSD for the first time myself, I abandoned those aspirations toot de sweet, if you know what I'm sayin'.

JMO, YMMV.

[knowbody0]

28. that's the strange thing

he is really popular, goes to the games and dances after. he breakdances and raps for crowds of kids. he's also champion wrestler, black belt taekwondo, girls call for him all the time, and he's a natural born comedian. this phase now is just wierd.

[RandomKoolzip]

35. Some people have it all and hunger for purity, for whatever reason.

Maybe it's an odd sense of guilt for enjoying life and being on top of the world. I know the feeling. Like I said, at that age, I ached to cut everything out of my life and become a monk or a priest or anything besides a normal teenager. I have no idea why. I wanted to be good.

I cannot explain it...but I think becoming a mormon is a decision he'll regret later. I suggest directing him to some of the sites other DUers mentioned above, the sites about ex-Mormons.

[knowbody0]

39. he is going to read this thread later tonight

i was going to be a Catholic nun. at 12 i dressed in my homemade "nun outfit" and walked through the woods saying my rosary. i planned on marrying God and being a missionary. good times.

[greatauntoftriplets]

17. A friend's ex/late husband has a Mormon daughter....

from a much previous relationship who is a Mormon. When the daughter visited, she and her father would visit the local Mormon temple for services. He (a recovering Catholic) always insisted that Mormonism was a cult.

And I describe him as "ex/late husband" since he sadly died two days after the divorce was granted.

The underwear downthread is weird, just as my friend always said. I never met the daughter.

[Pretty_in_CodePink]

19. Yikes! How did this happen?

Can't he be a normal teen and dress goth and smoke pot. I have some close lapsed Mormon friends. Very freaky. Lots of secret stuff goes on there. I wish I had some of the links they sent a while back. They talked very freely about it and I was intrigued. Asked lots of questions. I think for my friend it was cheap psychotherapy.

Kidding above aside - another close friend's daughter became Mormon in college. Friend was happy that it put daughter on straight and narrow ending drinking and drug spree. Daughter left party school Ohio University to go to Utah - Brigham Young maybe. Anyway daughter lapsed to drugs and alcohol again. As did her boyfriend/current husband. They are clean now but can't be "sealed" in the top secret ceremony where everyone wears white until they are sinless for a period of time. Several years. Maybe 2.

When they get sealed this will ensure that they and their children will be together in the afterlife. However, if she dies and husband remarries he will seal with new wife. This will leave first wife alone in the afterlife - maybe with her children. Not sure. Don't remember the reverse scenario.

Another Mormon friend is from Mormon family and wasn't practicing when she married my friend. After marriage she practices again along with her 3 children but not hubby. Still every 3 or so months missionaries come to visit at their house to have a conversion conversation with him.

Once your son is in the loop they will visit you too. I agree with above poster. He needs his sleep and shouldn't be getting up at 4:30 for study.

Does he know no sex before marriage and that polygamy is banned except in some ostracized sects?

[knowbody0]

24. he will be reading this thread later on

i met a Mormon family with 8 kids in a KOA camp. the husband would show up in the evening with food but was always gone b4 dawn.

[greatauntoftriplets]

22. Please read this book.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/offer-listing/0688093043/ref=dp_olp_2//002-3256687-0666428?condition=all

[Missy Vixen]

25. Great book, greatauntoftriplets

I read "Secret Ceremonies" several years ago and thought it was a tremendous book. If anyone here wants to get truly depressed, read "Under the Banner of Heaven,"* Jon Krakauer's latest book about the LDS Church.

Julie

*This book is not appropriate for children. There is a VERY graphic description of what happened to Elizabeth Smart the evening she was kidnapped from her home, for instance.

[greatauntoftriplets]

27. I have heard about "Under the Banner of Heaven"

My :loveya: read it and thought it was excellent. He also recommended it to me and I have not yet read it.

[knowbody0]

56. thanks greatauntoftriplets

ordered the book. i have my own Book of Mormon, i've read history books about it. i believe their intentions are pure, but my mind cannot wrap itself around the concepts.

[fudge stripe cookays]

60. I recommend this book too.

After spending time at some of the temples doing research, it creeped me out for weeks afterward.

The whole "knife motion across the throat" thing threatening anyone who tells about the rituals especially creeped me out. That and the fu-fu undies.

FSC

[AlienGirl]

26. Let him run with it, is my advice

There may be something about the religion that connects with him on a deep level. Some people just get "pulled" toward a religion, and no matter how much anyone disapproves, they have to wind up where they belong.

Is there any way he could go to seminary at a later hour, so he isn't so tired? The fatigue sounds like the most worrisome part of this.

Also, ask him to help you pick out clothes if you want to go to church with him. That way, he can't object to your style of dress. Be available to talk about his spiritual issues, don't ridicule them, and let him know you'll love him no matter what.

Tucker

[knowbody0]

30. thanks, Tucker

[medeak]

74. noooooo!

you don't know this church!

[Tallison]

95. I totally agree with this

Alarm and overreaction will only create a power struggle. Avoid this at all costs; it will only fuel his interest.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

29. Do you have a religious preference of your own?

If so, look around in your community for a spiritual advisor from your own tradition who can channel your son's explorations in a less authoritarian direction.

If not, try to look for some sort of activity where he can fit in. If he's interested in the Big Questions, see if there's some sort of discussion group for youth, perhaps focusing on literature or science.

The Mormons do have very active youth programs, providing a ready-made peer group. It can create an irresisitible magnet for a young person who feels lost or doesn't fit in.

[knowbody0]

32. see post 28

Wrestling starts next month. he cannot possibly do both.

[Pretty_in_CodePink]

43. Perhaps this will take care of itself if you let it ride.

Does he love wrestling??

[knowbody0]

50. oh yes

he won first place in district last year. he's very competitive. black belt taekwondo as well. he breakdances and raps too.

[Pretty_in_CodePink]

92. Well then he can't do everything

With his varied interests I hope this Mormon thing passes. It must be a difficult thing to deal with.

My daughter is only 6 so I haven't had this concern. My great fear is she joins the Young Republicans club or something like that. So I am getting her involved already. She sometimes goes to CODEPINK events with me and she worked a bit on the Kerry campaign with me too.

Best of luck to you. Remember you are the mom!

[Momgonepostal]

31. I joined the LDS church in HS as did my husband...

and we turned out OK.

I think it's reasonable to want to go to church with him if you'd like to see what's going on. There is no dress code per se, but most LDS women in this country wear a dress or skirt to church. If you are not a member or are new, no one reasonable is going to freak if you show up in pants.

If seminary is interfering with his studies, I also think it's reasonable to limit that. He needs his sleep and to do his homework.

Be careful about being too restrictive about this. That could strengthen his resolve to stay with it even more.

My husband's family freaked when he showed interest in the church. They told him he was NOT allowed to join the church until he was an adult. He waited a new years, then got baptized at about 19. He's now 47 and still active in the church. And no, we're not brainwashed zombie robots.

[knowbody0]

36. i know his mom (his best friend's mom)

she's raised her seven kids alone. i really admire and respect her. i am being careful about my concerns with my son. congratulations to you and your husband. my REPRESSED Catholic up bringing has rendered me suspicious of organized religion.

[Momgonepostal]

45. I can certainly understand your skepticism

A lot of people feel that way about religions other than their own or religion in general.

Don't worry about him getting brainwashed. He goes to seminary because it's fun and he has friends there.

I did three years of seminary and no one ever told me to ditch my family or anything extreme. Most of the kids who went were members already. One other girl who attended in my class was not a member and to my knowledge never joined the church. It was not a high pressure atmosphere at all.

[medeak]

78. that's because you are female n/t

[Momgonepostal]

109. Can you explain this?

[medeak]

76. oh my hell

pray tell...if given a choice would you use a business that was in the "good book" or not?

was forced by corporate america to open a branch in SLC...learned a hell of a lot about mormonism.

Went to a parade of homes last month...and if the participants weren't gay ... they were polygamists with the wives walking in single file...oldest to youngest. Oh the horror of it all...

[Tallison]

99. You could say the same of SOME Catholics

But you could never about this one. Be careful of generalizing. Exceptions may be rare, but they may also be significant and a sign of change ahead.

[medeak]

100. I wasn't generalizing

am telling the honest to gawd truth...and if you pm me I'll write you a book

[Momgonepostal]

110. I don't even understand what you are asking

What "good book" are you referring to?

[Tallison]

98. Thanks for sharing this

I'm detecting a lot of misperception of Mormonism based on many posts in this threads. Geez, it's opponents of the son's interest who really seem to be freaking. That is never a productive thing when guiding adolescents...

[Momgonepostal]

111. Thank you for being supportive

I consider myself very mainstream America so it's a bit of a shock to come here and read how I've been brainwashed into joining a dangerous cult. My lifestyle probably isn't much different than that of most married with children DUers. :shrug:

[hickman1937]

33. They will make sure you don't "connect" with him unless you

accept their church. Get him out now. No true church will loosen the bonds bwt a parent and child. Not all crappy churches are cults, but the crappy and the cult have one thing in common. Separate the child from their strongest bond.

[Momgonepostal]

34. Baloney!

I never felt any pressure to emotionally distance myself from my family and neither did my husband. You sound like you watch too much TV.

[hickman1937]

40. What belief did you embrace?

Do you speak for the followers of Jim Jones, and Pana Wave?

[Momgonepostal]

46. Of course not, we were talking about LDS, correct?

Did the topic morph from that into groups who murder their members?

I'm sure you can understand why I might object to being lumped together with the likes of Jim Jones.

[hickman1937]

51. Of course. I'm sorry.

But would any true Shepherd in the fields of the Lord allow a child to be this overworked without an attempt to work with his parents? Jehovah Witnesses spent a lot of time with my son right after he got sick, but were always up front with me and their goals.

[Momgonepostal]

57. I don't think we've established that the church wants no...

contact with the parents. I've been a member for 22 years myself and served as a missionary in a foreign country for a year and a half. Not only we we told NOT to alienate parents of minors or spouses of people who express interest in the church, but we were encouraged to invite them to come to church as well. The fact is, he or anyone else is more likely to stay interested in the church or any organization over the long haul if his family is supportive. If anything, mom should be worried that the overzealous will want to convert her, too. :-)

As for the overworked part of it, getting up that early is awfully tough for a lot of people. I agree that if his school work is suffering, he shouldn't go. Seminary is OPTIONAL, even for members. When I went, it started at 6:30am and I did get up around 5 because I had high maintenance 80's hair and wanted to look good. LOL :crazy:

4:30 does seem very early, so it's possible that he lives far away from the church?

[hickman1937]

59. I just PM'd you with another apology.

I spoke from ignorance.

[Momgonepostal]

62. Sorry for not responding sooner, took an ice cream break

I think I have my PMs off, so I haven't gotten it, but thank you, that's very kind and there are no hard feelings on my end. :-)

[medeak]

81. pray tell why are missionaries not allowed to call their parents?

and only allowed to write letters? hmmmm?

[Momgonepostal]

112. They can, but on a limited basis, to keep them focused...

on what they are doing. And then at the end, we go home and pick up our lives where we left off.

[NVMojo]

82. where do you live? I've lived in Idaho and Nevada, always surrounded

by Mormons. Love the whole line of "you are so mormon, you should join the church" just because I was honest. Give me a break, I don't need to follow those kind of guidelines. I have my own brain, thank you very much!

Also, one of my favorite things to laugh at about Mormons, Utah is like number one or two in the nation for bankruptcies and then there is that little polygamy deal. We went to St. George and read the paper down there going on and on about how the polys game the welfare system. Seems you can marry the first wife and she is your legal wife and all other wives and their offspring are supported by welfare cuz the state recognizes them as single moms even though they are being boffed by a holy Mormon man and will breed with him into eternity, but before they get their, it's on the dole of the taxpayers! wonderfuckingful!!! What a bunch of DeLay repugs!!!

[Momgonepostal]

113. Those modern day polygamists aren't LDS

We excommunicate for that.

Edited to answer: I'm in CA. We're used to having neighbors to go to a variety of different churches or no churches, and it's no biggie.

I've read a little about some of those groups in Colorado City, etc. and 1) find what they are doing appalling and 2)don't know ANYONE like that myself.

[medeak]

77. yes they do!!!!!

sent pm to her... Morman sons are taught to be above their mothers at age 12...

[Momgonepostal]

114. I'm sorry, but this is just insane

What on earth do you mean? I've been a member over 20 years and have NEVER heard that.

[hickman1937]

37. Btw, one facet of mind conditioning is to keep the target so tired,

weary, that they are open to anything. Stay up 24 or 48 hours with a friend, then have them try to convince you of whatever they choose. Get your son out of any religious classes that don't send you home literature about their beliefs, and ask your permission.
edit for crappy spelling.

[knowbody0]

41. good advice. thanks hickman1937

[WildEyedLiberal]

38. The only thing that disturbed me about your post...

... was that he said you would be considered unwelcome at services. BIG warning flags right there. You should be as involved in this as you want to be - at any rate, the church should never tell you what you can and can't witness in regards to your son.

[knowbody0]

44. agree

thanks so much for pondering my newest dilema.

[Pretty_in_CodePink]

47. Is it the church or teenage embarrassment

over his parent? Regardless I would insist that I go to a service or the kid wouldn't go. Above poster's suggestion of asking for guidance on what to wear is a good idea.

[knowbody0]

49. yep

[Momgonepostal]

48. that's not coming from the church

That sounds like the son is telling her not to come.

[NVMojo]

83. this freaks me out, that's the one thing I was afraid of when my son

went to live in Mormon country, as in near Rexburg and the Mormon marriage college there. I have had many friends and acquaintances who had a kid turn mormon and because the parents or grandparents were not MORMON, they could not attend the wedding. Sounds real Christian to me. Bet they don't get to visit their kids on their planets after they die either!!! A pack of fairy tales. Think I'll go burn some incense and ponder my navel...wanna watch??

[China_cat]

53. This is the type of thing done in brainwashing

* Isolation: Deprives victim of all social support ability to resist. Develops an intense concern with self. Makes victim dependent upon interrogator.

* Monopolization of Perception: Fixes attention upon immediate predicament; fosters introspection. Eliminates stimuli competing with those controlled by the captor. Frustrates all actions not consistent with compliance.

* Induced Debility & Exhaustion: Weakens mental and physical ability to resist.

* Threats: Cultivates anxiety and despair.

* Occasional Indulgences: Provides positive motivation for compliance.

* Demonstrating "Omnipotence": Suggests futility of resistance.

* Enforcing Trivial Demands: Develops habit of compliance.

* Degradation: Makes cost of resistance appear more damaging to self-esteem than capitulation. Reduces prisoner to "animal level" concerns.


Sound familiar to what's happening to your child?

[knowbody0]

54. in 15 minutes

he will read this whole thread. i'll let you know the impact.
the kid i've known would have only attended if there was good food there.

[politicat]

58. You both need to sit down together and read (or listen to) Jon Krakauer.

The book is called "Under The Banner of Heaven." It's the history of both the Mormon Church from an outsider's perspective (which he is most assuredly not getting in Seminary) and the story of a set of murders that grew out of some of the more extreme elements of the faith. However, those extremes are not that far from the surface of the mainstream church, and there's a lot more tolerance for the supposed banned practices in the mainstream church than most people are aware of. (Like polygamy. If you're quiet about it and don't advertise it, you're not likely to get excommunicated. And racism. The organization is still horribly racist.)

You need to talk about logical inconsistencies and hoaxes and frauds, and the fact that the most successful of hoaxers are the ones who believe what they're selling. The BoM is hugely internally inconsistent, (more so even than the Bible) and, if it was the actual word of god, then either god's a liar (because the evidence does not support the claims the books make) or god plays freakish practical jokes (removing/altering the evidence.)

I grew up in Mormon communities and was as close to the community as one can get without actually being baptized - I was Catholic and losing my faith in the whole thing, not just in Catholicism, but searching for something. My best friends were Mormons from the time I was ten or so. I was his age and going through about the same stage - he's looking for some psycho-social need to be filled, either for structure or discipline or positive male role models or acceptance. But those needs cannot be filled by an organization; they have to come from within and through inner peace.

Feel free to PM me.

[knowbody0]

61. thanks politicat

he refused to read this thread, said his eyes hurt. i offered to read it to him, he said no thanks. RED FLAG!
he's not attending seminary in the morning.
im meeting his sponsers tomorow.
i too am an ex Catholic, and religion phobic
i asked how many Hispanics were there. Zero (he's Mexican)
i've seen the documentary about those murders.

[China_cat]

63. Here's another argument you might use

You would never have left him in a day care that you couldn't visit, inspect and be part of. You would never have let him stay in a school where you couldn't be involved in what was happening in his life. You would never allow him to participate in sports that you weren't permitted to observe and assure yourself of the precautions taken for safety and well being of team members.

So why does he think you would feel any different about a religion he's attracted to?

[politicat]

72. You know, you might try to locate a Newman center.

Yeah, it's Catholicism, but the one I went to in college (when I was still flirting with theology) was really liberal, really supportive of liberation theology (which is something he might find attractive, especially considering it has strong South American and Central American roots) and constantly on the Bishop's shit list (always a good thing!)

And the youth structures are fabulous - where else is he going to get to go spend a month a summer building concrete floored housing with real roofs in the Andes or helping to build better water delivery systems in Haiti?

[AntiCoup2K4]

86. He's Mexican? That explains everything! (Token Lamanite factor)

One of the central tenets of LDS faith is that Jesus Christ visited the American continents soon after His resurrection and ascension to Heaven from the Middle East.

At the time, two races of people populated these continents. The Nephites were a lost tribe of Israel (and the primary reason why JC came to visit). The other race were the Lamanites, who were the indigenous people of this continent.

Apparently the Lamanites got pissed and killed all the Nephites eventually, which is why there weren't any white skinned people here until Columbus, Cortez, et al started showing up. Of course, the Mormons also claim that this is exactly WHY those who greeted Cortez were expecting a "White God". They were expecting JC to return. Jesus Christ, that is. Not Juan Cortez.

Anyway, to make a long story short, Mormons have since made it their mission to "save" as many "Lamanites" as possible, and every LDS ward needs their "token Lamanite". A friend of mine (Native American) was recruited for this very reason.

[Tallison]

93. But FLDS is way different than mainstream Mormonism!

Be careful of confusing them and generalizing based on the events of the book. UTBOH was an well-written, anecdotal story about a tragedy that any fundie could perpetuate. It has nothing to do with what seems to interest her son.

A much better introduction to mainstream Mormonism is this book, which I read as part of an American religious traditions course in college:
http://www.press.uillinois.edu/pre95/0-252-01417-0.html
The author is a non-Mormon professor at the University of Illinois.

[politicat]

107. I repeat: I grew up in Northern Arizona, in a community of 6000, 97% of

whom were mainstream Mormons. I was one of three non-Mormons in my high school class of 200 students. I spent 16 years of my life in strongly Mormon communities; my step-mother and my step-siblings and half-sisters are Mormon and my father has accepted the faith, though I'm not sure how sincerely. As a teen, I was accepted, partially, into the community, as long as I was willing to be as soft and deferential as the other girls; if I stood up for myself, I was shunned, and standing up for myself could mean anything from defending evolution to defending Jimmy Carter. I did not date; Mormon boys are not allowed to date Gentile girls. There were several that told me that they liked me very much, and if I would just convert, they'd date me. (Like that was an incentive or something, but that's another story.) I was constantly under pressure to convert and shun my (admittedly, not very stable and somewhat abusive) natal family; several families told me they'd take me in if I'd convert and be saved. If that isn't a high pressure tactic when a child is vulnerable, then I don't know what is. Do I resent their manipulation? I used to, but now I am just mystified by it. I don't understand how anyone can accept the internal contradictions of the faith.

I can tell you that the self-righteous, self-congratulatory arrogance depicted in the book permeates both groups. To be an outsider in those communities is to be considered less than human - rather as the Scientologists consider all of us non-scientologists to be "wogs". There is a narcissism that pervades the culture that ensures that the children - who often grow up without the necessary medicine, dental care and adequate nutrition due to the expense of raising such large families - are assured that they are superior to everyone they meet who is a Gentile. (I've rarely encountered this in Christian sects.)

There is a lack of logical thought in both communities, and they are both ripe targets for scams and hoaxes of all sorts; quackery pervades the community and many of the quacks (including one who killed my step-father by convincing him that radio waves and chiropracty would cure prostate cancer) profit from their victims for years before they are caught... if they are caught. Not much difference between those type of medical quacks and the grifters that run the FLDS, not ethically, anyway.

I've read Shipp's work (also at university). I feel that it softens the attitudes and general makeup of the communities at large. It's clear from zer writing that ze does not and never did live in a majority Mormon community. Those of us who have, as non-Mormons, and who have read both Krakauer and Shipp, realize that the lurid stories in Krakauer are the exception, but the attitudes of the tellers in Krakauer are more accurate.

[Tallison]

118. I capitulate to your experience as it is clearly

unique to being a minority in an area overwhelmed by a Mormon (and FLDS at that) majority.

Where I live, on the east coast, it's the other way around, and minorities don't have the luxury, for lack of a better term, of resorting to bully evangelical tactics.

Interesting disparity in cultures.

[Az]

64. Go here and learn

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/BOM/index.htm

[Az]

65. Also ask him if he knows about the peep stones

:evilgrin:

[knowbody0]

66. WTF are the peep stones?

and thanks for the above ref.

[Az]

73. Peep stones

Were these three stones Mr Smith used to translate documents. People would bring him documents that could not be translated and he translate them with the peep stones. He would place them in a hat, then he would place the hat over his face, and then he would look at the document through the hat and the peep stones enabled him to translate the document.

This is how he translated the gold plaques.

He later translated another document in this way (adding to the doctrine of his religion). This document is still around. Rather than being the text he claimed it was we now know it to be a document pertaining to an individuals burial. Seems we learned how to read heiroglyphics without peepstones since his day.

[knowbody0]

75. what a hoot

how "new age".
i got lost in the site you recommended. what a maze.

[NVMojo]

84. I am thinking he's referring to the peep shows during wedding ceremonies

with the veil ...scary, perverted stuff.

[AntiCoup2K4]

67. How the Hell does he get up at 4:30 AM every morning without coffee??

:shrug:

[ellisonz]

71. Hehehe...

...well I'm not sure all of this is to be taken literally, or seriously for that matter.

[spacelady]

68. I went through various phases such as this at that age, you are correct in

your responses so far, I think. Just like if he were to fall for a girl that made you uneasy--take it casually & nonchalant, maybe have a little one on one talks if comfortable. Although your feelings are valid, making a fuss or strongly objecting will only push the rebellion button. Give it some time, while monitoring the situation & I'll bet something different will strike his fancy. Hopefully not something worse!

[knowbody0]

70. i know from experience that 14 is a serious year

my bio kids are adults now. i adopted him and his sisters ten years ago. this is really out of character for him. thanks for pondering my dilema, spacelady, i do have faith in him, but have put my foot down on the before school seminary. he seemed relieved and impressed that i have my own Book of Mormon along with the Koran, the bibles the IChing.

[China_cat]

87. Mormonism is really attractive to young males

especially their view of the afterlife where men become the equal of god and get their own planet to rule over.

Their wives, however, get to spend eternity having babies, taking care of babies and being pregnant.

Sorry, that doesn't sound like anything that comes near to qualifying as a 'heaven' to me. But then, I'm female.

[NVMojo]

79. you sound like a good mom, but this would scare me! I raised 3 sons

and one went to live with his dad in "mormon country" when he hit the 9th grade. I figured he'd turn at this point. He didn't and is proud of it even though 95% of his friends are Mormons ...some of me must have rubbed off on him .... :headbang: I never have liked authority and thinking with the same brain as everyone else!! HAHA!!!

[knowbody0]

80. ain't it kool

when anarchists reproduce! im open, and searched ravenously for a religion after leaving the Catholic Church. i always found a flaw. then i found the IChing which to me is chrystal pure. my God now is Truth.

[NVMojo]

85. love it, especially as a recovering Catholic!!!

[Bassic]

88. Hrm. That's not good I think.

I mean, i was brought up in a religious familly and the Mormons scare even my parents.

[Tallison]

89. Has he talked to you about why?

About what appeals to him about it?

Sorry, I don't have time right now to read the rest of this thread before responding, but I'd like to later today. I dated a Mormon in high school and went on to major in religious studies in college, remember reading an (academic) book on the tradition by a Jan Shipps (can't remember the title offhand).

Be careful in how you approach this. Be careful in any criticism of the religion, less you make your son feel "persecuted" for his interest - such a sentiment tends to drive people further into their tradition's beliefs rather than provoke critical reflection. Also be careful of confusing mainstream Mormonism with the FLDS church - the fundamentalist branch from which the main church has disassociated itself.

This is a tricky issue, especially with adolescent psychology as a variable. I'll post more later today when I have the chance.

:hug:

[MissMillie]

90. Unless he's getting to bed at around 7 or 8...

he's not getting enough sleep. Seriously. He is at the age where he needs more sleep, not less. I think his intentions are admirable, and surely there are worse places for him to place his energy... but he's a growing boy and he needs his sleep.

[Shell Beau]

91. I know this probably freaks you out!

But I personally think 14 is old enough to know a lot about spirituality. I think it is important he explore his beliefs. But exploring may mean he needs to seek out other faiths as well. I personally don't know too much about Mormonism. I know enough to know it is not the religion for me. But pushing him away from it may cause resentment. I would be concerned if I were you too. But there has to be some way that you could try to get him to test other religions too. I would be concerned about "brain washing". :shrug: Then again, as I said, I don't know a whole lot about Mormons.

[Taverner]

94. Have him check out the Reorganized Church of Latter Day Saints

It's the church that followed Joseph Smith's bloodline, and is very lefty - much like a Mormon version of the UCC.

[bamacrat]

97. I am so sorry.

I have dated a couple of them, by mistake. Good luck

[thinkingwoman]

101. as someone with mormon relatives

I can assure you that what you describe is not normal -- not even for the mormon church.

Put your foot down immediately. Trust your gut. Something is VERY wrong here!!!

Just my 2 pennies.

Good luck.

[knowbody0]

102. thanks thinkingwoman

ive stopped the b4 school seminary situation and met with his sponsers. they were intimidated by all of my questions and reluctant to argue with me. im thinking my mama bear side was showing itself today. this seminary targets boys 13 and 14.(what a vulnerable time) they believe they are "saving" them from taking a sinful and destructive path in life. oh well. the meeting lasted less than 10 minutes. they may have been frightened by the "Indian stuff" around the house.

[thinkingwoman]

106. great news!

Keep up the mama bear stuff...we can't let anyone mess with our cubs!

:hi:

[Sandpiper]

103. Self Delete

[TallahasseeGrannie]

104. Oh my gosh

those are some interesting folks.

Keep the channels open. He's young, very young. They might be into thought control and all, but they aren't fire breathing dragons or anything.

Look at it this way: he won't drink or do drugs.

Hang in there; this is a tough on.

[knowbody0]

105. thanks tallahassseeGrannie

i really enjoyed typing your name.
we have come to a new agreement, the kid and i..no more afternoon naps, in bed by 9pm, up no later than 5 am. he is really serious about wanting to become Mormon. this means i drive him there. we had a really good sit down this afternoon and i have fallen even harder in love with this amazing young man.

[GreenPartyVoter]

108. Keep him on his toes. If he seems like he is getting entrenched in

thought processes you don't like, give him extra homework. My preference would be Borg's "The Heart of Christianity" to help him see a vision of faith that is open-minded.

:hug:

[knowbody0]

115. thanks GPV

im feeling much better tonight. i cannot believe the huge response to this situation. he is absolutely awesome and always has been diligent and self disciplined. we've agreed upon a new deal re sleep and im driving him in the am. this way we have 30 min alone and i plan on being a "presence" there. IMO, it is a social event for him, but he states he does not even want to have premarital sex, tobacco, drugs or alcohol. also when he raps now, he bleeps the nasty words, (he sings in the shower much louder than he realizes me thinks)

[dr.zoidberg]

116. Show him the silly ceremonial underwear.

That'll scare him away from Mormonism. Mormons: they make the Baptists look sane in comparison.

[knowbody0]

117. i did

he read the entire thread this afternoon.