Color Me Shocked! I Agree With Dr. Phil On NOT Spanking Children...

[arwalden]

... it's just wrong!

I've always thought he was a bit too conservative and arrogant and abrasive and rude... I never liked him, ever.

But I nearly fell over when I found out that we feel the same way about not spanking children.

Some things never cease to amaze. Today was one of those days.

-- Allen

P.S. What color would "shocked" actually look like?

[Interrobang]

1. Shocking pink? Electric blue?

The thing I don't get about the non-spanking contingent is, how do you dissuade a hell-bent, pre-verbal humanling from doing something injurious without the use of a "hey, pay attention!" swat on the butt? Sometimes distraction just doesn't work... I'm not talking about beating the crap out of a kid; I'm talking about the equivalent of tapping the cat on the nose when he won't get his face out of your glass of water, and the "Hey! No! Get out of there!" hasn't worked. (Cats and small children arer similar, but the cat's generally smarter.)

[arwalden]

2. I Never Really Thought Of Myself As Being In A Contingent...

... but one could always grab their hair or the scruff of the neck to get their attnetion (just kidding). But seriously... along those same lines... even though they are not cats, one could grab them by the shoulders (or belt) and force them to be face-to-face with a bellowing and/or seriously stern parent who isn't about to back down until the point has been made and understood.

I've just seen it as a slipperly slope that gets WAY out of hand... especially when the so-called parent spanks an infant/pre-toddler.

But that's a topic for another thread entirely.

-- Allen

[NashVegas]

14. "face-to-face with a bellowing and/or seriously stern parent "

Admittedly, I don't have kids, but if I did, I'd much rather they dread the idea of being bent over the toilet seat with an unseen hand poised to slap their behind, than dread being within 10 inches of my face.

Disciplined spanking is not abuse; the main problem is with parents who don't discipline *theirselves* in how to use it. ie, my mom never spanked any of us (5 kids) while the crime was fresh. Nooooooo, she'd let us stew on the upcoming ordeal until somewhere past dinner-time.

[soleft]

22. Actually, it is abuse.

To be completely dependendant on someone for food, shelter, safety, and love, and then to live in fear of that person sets up so many patterns of future fucked relationships...

If you don't like the way I'm behaving and you strike me, I can strike you back, I can call the cops, I can choose to never see you again. Children have no options. Other than to continue to act out.

And there are SO MANY BOOKS and classes and ways to learn how to teach discipline without resorting to violence, why wouldn't anyone ever choose to inflict pain and fear on a defenseless person.

Would you condone hitting an elderyly person with dementia, a deaf mute, a person with a Lou Gehrigs disease? There are plenty of people who are unable to understand instructions because of disabilities or stages of learning development. To strike someone because they are not of age to understand verbal communication is so unnecessary. And abusive.

[Friar]

44. I hope you change your mind

Admittedly you don't have kids but I can tell you as a single father of two that "spanking" doesn't work as a disciplinary tool. It's just a euphemism for hitting.

NEVER hit your kids!!!!! That's all. Only parental advice I really have.

[sybylla]

42. Of course, spank-free is the most desirable.

However, after pushing that cat away from the glass of water 6 times, what comes next?

I raised two boys. I am a person of reason and was determined not to spank my kids. Looking back, I think I did pretty well. But, when, as obstinate toddlers, it came to situations where they could hurt themselves or someone else, grabbing their face, talking to them, reprimanding them 3, 6, or 8 times becomes negligent. In those situations they got a putch on the diaper to let them know I was serious and would not tolerate that kind of dangerous behavior. My kids didn't grow up living in fear, they grew up knowing that I cared about their well-being. And they never got a putch on the butt after they made it past the tantrum stages, about 3.

No spanking is like saying no abortions. It would be wonderful if there would never be a cause for either, but this is the real world and it just doesn't always work like that.

[arwalden]

3. Pink. I like shocking pink. --- Thanks.

.

[Enraged_Ape]

4. Dr. Phil said he did not support the war on Iraq

In front of his studio and home audience, God, and everyone. If I remember correctly, I believe he even said he thought it was a "dumb idea". He scored a lot of points with me then.

[Darranar]

6. Neither does Pat Buchanan...

I certainly hope HE doesn't have so many points with you.

[SOteric]

10. Possibly so, but

He also devoted an entire show to trying to tell the American people how 'wrong' it was, how destructive to morale it was, to protest the war while we had American troups in harm's way.

He lost a great deal of credibility with me that day when he shouted down a liberal woman who tried to assert her right to freely protest a war, any war she felt was not in the best interests of the U.S.

[HEyHEY]

5. wack away!

I say spank the littel brats!

Shocked would be a puce colour

[ProudGerman]

8. Shocking would be a pale purple

nuff said.


On topic:
Wacks on the butt that don't hurt are a-ok with me. But rampant smacking is something that I don't agree with.

[madrchsod]

7. it only works

in certain times and certain age.i think i`ve only spanked my three kids probaly 10 times in their lives and they turned out ok.. i can`t stand people who abuse their kids in public by screaming and hitting them..
shocking color--" shocking pink"

[mac56]

9. I'm with Dr. Phil 100% on this one.

Spanking is a sign that the parent is not in control and has not anticipated the situation. Flame away -

[crawfish]

17. Hmmm...

Do you have children? Do you have more than one? I'll assure you, you cannot always anticipate every situation. Unbelievably, kids have a mind of their own, and sometimes they don't see the logic in your rules...and being clever, they'll wait until you're distracted to test you.

What a waste for a first post, but the naivety of your statement was astounding. I just couldn't help myself.

[dawg]

20. Welcome to DU!

And that was not a wasted post. Parenting is very frustrating, and sometimes I reach my wits end and just don't have a clue what to do. Anyone without kids can't fully appreciate how hard it can be.

[mac56]

25. I'm proud that I inspired your first post.

Welcome to DU.

Yes, I do have kids. Yes, I stand by my statement. Yes, kids test us sometimes. And yes, we're older and smarter than they are, and need to be in control - of them, and of ourselves.

I'm not talking about intervening physically to stop a kid from walking out in front of a steamroller or into a fire pit. Walloping a kid because they're "testing" Dad or Mom's limits shows them that Dad or Mom is no longer in control and has to resort to brute force.

How many times have you seen a parent larrop a kid because he/she was fighting with another kid? Mixed message, much?

[crawfish]

30. Spanking doesn't mean losing control

Heck, losing control is bad even if you don't hit the kid. Ever seen a parent yell at some poor kid when he's done something wrong?

Spanking is not hitting. Spanking is a controlled response to certain types of misbehavior - for the most part, that which is dangerous or outright defiance. Kids must recognize spanking as a consquence of their own actions for it to do any good.

In fact, I believe ANY form of discipline can be abuse, if done out of spite, anger or cruelty. I've known too many ill-adjusted adults who were never spanked in my life to believe otherwise.

[mac56]

31. I'll accept that you may be able to use it as a controlled response.

Unlike about 99% of the rest of the population. You're a rare breed, crawfish.

Obviously any sort of discipline or limit-setting can be abused. But the form of discipline a parent selects says something about him or her, and by its very use is legitimized in the child's eyes.

And for every ill-adjusted adult you know who didn't get enough spankings as a child, I bet I know five who have been scarred for life (literally and figuratively) by getting the sh*t beat out of them.

[Riptide]

38. Spanking is not hitting?

I don't think you could even fool Dubya with that logic. Spanking IS hitting. You can give it a cute little euphamism, but the fact remains, spanking is hitting.

Yes, I do have children - I have 3. I have never spanked any of my children because I believe it is just plain wrong. We discipline our children without resorting to violence. I have been very angry with my children and wanted to hit them. Just like I have been mad at my husband and wanted to hit him, but the fact remains, I don't hit because you can't teach respect through a disrespectful act.

It's funny how pro-spankers always say, "Well, yelling at a kid is abusive too." I agree, and I certainly don't advocate yelling in lieu of hitting. There are lots of alternatives, it's just harder. But, who ever said parenting was easy?

[Friar]

46. don't know if that was a pro-hitting post

or not but...

welcome! :toast:

[stanwyck]

48. My experience with my twins

I don't believe in spanking. The message you're sending is: I'm bigger. I'm stronger. And I'm going to hurt you to make my point because I have no other resources. Like authority and reason. My husband spanked our son one time. Didn't work at all. Our son figured, is that it? Hell, I'll just do whatever I want, take the spanking, punishment is done, and I'll keep on going. Pain is not a deterrant to everyone. Maybe that's why he played soccer for 14 years and is now a Marine. There was never a situation where we felt spanking our daughter was necessary. I can't help but think of what Jessica Stein (did I get her name right?) said about spanking: My folks spanked me and all's it did was make me want to get spanked during sex.

[gyopsy]

11. I am against spanking children

I saw the show today and thought Dr. Phil was his usual showman self. He's a performer first and a shrink second I think but I agree with him most of the time and today was no different.

But I do respect others who think spanking their children is okay. But there is a fine line between discipline and abuse.

[Dirty Hippie]

12. I watched him

counseling parents of children who seemed out of control and who spanked their kids. He spent the entire discussion presenting alternatives to spanking. But he missed a major point! Parents will never earn the respect of their children unless they spend the time develop a close loving relationship with them. Sounds simple, but the parents on the show seemed to denigrate the kids more than anything else and really seemed to think their kids were just “bad kids”. Well duh. Children will never comply with the wishes of a parent they do not respect, I don't care how you punish. That means the parents must respect the kids first. Of course, spanking is not going to help.

One of my favorite sayings (original): "Kids are people too."

[BigMcLargehuge]

47. I didn't watch as CSPAN is on...

But as the father of a two-year old and former preschool teacher I think it's important ot remember that parent's aren't given a manual on their child's birthday, and given the sorry state of our education system even basic skills like introduction to parenting (or even home economics) are long extinct.

While I do not in any way condone the voilent striking of a child, regardless of age or perceived offense, I will say that it symptomatic of a poorly cultivated mental model of what parenting is, and if you are anything like my age, the vast majority of parenting skills I learned came from television. Although I now recognize just how good my folks were with we kids, I still reference sitcoms when dealing with a pariticular two-year old situation.

Here's what I've seen in my mere 34 years of life:

Parents who are terrified that their kids will make even the smallest mistakes and to reiforce this fear they spank to "prevent" said mistakes. This is not only cruel to the kids, it's counter to their ability to learn. We learn from our mistakes, provided we are allowed to make them..

Parents who insist on unwavering respect, but demonstrating none themselves.

Parents who practice ageism, i.e. because I am older than you... Kids have no idea what the hell this means because they have no useful concept of time.

Parents who treat their kids as pets.

Parents who carry resentment that their kids have taken away an important part of their pre-parental lives. And subconsciously demonstrate this resentment with beatings.

Parents who haven't the slightest idea how to relate or understand a developing mind and react the only way they know, with force.

Parents who base their child rearing skills on strict interpretation of the bible. The bible says kids can't talk back, and if/when they do it's clobbering time.

I encourage all new and prospective parents to take advantage of the parenting classes and support groups offered through local hospitals, birthing centers, early learning environments, and community centers.

I was a new parents once too, and when presented with a wall of contradictory child rearing books at the local bookstore was just as confused as the next prospective dad. Unlike some though, I talked with my own parents and parents and collegues in the Preschool for advice and tips then extrapolated what I could against my own experiences as a kid.

It worked for me and I've never even had the urge to hit my son no matter what he's done. And believe me, anyone with a two-year old knows they do plenty.

[DemExpat]

13. It's so easy to distract little kids....

to tell them something is not a 'good idea' and give an alternative....

Because I never forgot the humiliation of being spanked myself, I did my best to find other ways with my kiddos.

Never had to spank, and my young adult kids are polite, considerate people.

I sometimes like Dr. Phil...especially when he takes up for kids perception in family problems like divorce.

DemEx

[Shrek]

15. Sometimes that's all that works

Have you ever tried to reason with a 3- or 4-year old whose behavior is unacceptable? You might as well try to reason with the wind; it's about as effective.

A couple of firm swats to the posterior, delivered dispassionately, will focus the kid like nothing else will, believe me (and I'm speaking from long, hard-won personal experience).

As kids get older, though, it loses its effectiveness. Loss of privileges seems to do the trick most of the time.

[NashVegas]

19. Frequency

Just for the heck of it, I Googled to some spanking studies. I gotta say, some of the figures are shocking to me (I was a spanked kid, as were my older siblings - see above).

Shocking because of how often it was happening, as noted by the studies. ie, they looked at spankings 1-25 times per year, 25-155, and 156 +

If someone's spanking their kid more than even 4 times per year, IMO, that's just whacked. We're talking major discipline problems, and probably not just on the childrens' parts.

[fromsmalltownAmerica]

16. Sometimes spanking is the only alternative

It's not always the only alternative, but there are times when that is the only way to get a kids attention. Sometimes kids need to feel a little pain to know what pain is and by knowing what pain feels like they are IMO less likely to inflict it on others. I know that there are quite a few of you who do not believe in God, but I do. In my teachings of God and reading his word, even he says "Spare the Rod and spoil the child." But he also says that a parent should not cause their children anquish or distress. So the way I take it is, at times a good spanking is neccassary as long as it does not become abuse or the only form of discipline as that is when a parent has no control.

[MountainLaurel]

18. God's word?

I had always thought that the rod in the "spare the rod" thing referred to the long stick used to guide sheep (remember "thy rod and thy staff, they comfort me"?), not a rod used to hit people with. As in, you have to guide children and provide them structure, not that you have to assault them to teach them.

[DemExpat]

21. That is how I would interpret it too....

Guidance, vigilence, and love are all that is needed to teach a child IMO.


DemEx

[soleft]

23. Or the rod could metaphorically pertain to the spinal chord

When one sits in meditation one transcends physical senses, which are conveyed to the brain via the spinal chord or back bone, so if you spare the rod and do not subject it to subjugation through mindfulness, you could spoil the child, which metaphorically speaking could be you, your higher self, your thoughts, your endeavors,etc.

[Stuckinthebush]

28. God never said such a thing

Solomon did in Proverbs (and we aren't even sure about his authorship).

The nearest thing to this phrase is in Proverbs 13:24:

Those who spare the rod, hate their children, but the one who loves their child disciplines them diligently.”

Now, old King Solomon could very well have been a big fan of knocking the crap out of children, but many theologians interpret this "rod" to be a crook or staff used to guide sheep to safety.

However, instead of relying on a 3000 year old document with potentially multiple meanings, I would look at current psychological thought backed up with research.

Simply put, when we hit children, we teach children to hit. Also it teaches them to use violence against those that are powerless to get their way. There are no good messages given when a child is violated in that manner.

So, Solomon aside, violence against children is just not wise.

[stanwyck]

49. If that's your "only alternative"

then you've totally lost control. You're being a bully because you're bigger and stronger. Might does not make right; and that's the lesson you're teaching.

[Aristus]

24. As I have said before at this site, my parents were enlightened

and mostly liberal, but they were not permissive. (Wonder how those conservatives who have built a career on the evils of "libruhl purmissivnyess" would deal with that one.) I got spanked. Frequently. My dad would sometimes spank me and my brother with a heavy wooden slipper. I didn't turn into a tower-sniper, or God forbid, a Republican. I think I turned out fine. I believe in childhood discipline, as long as it is administered with love.
My father was very Jeffersonian about it. He would tell me I was to be spanked, and would go over the reasons for the spanking with me. He also informed me of the number of whacks to be expected, and never gave more than that. And he always hugged me afterward.

[soleft]

26. my Mom took thalydimide and I don't have fins

guess we're both lucky.

[Aristus]

27. I'm not sure exactly what will work with my three-year old grandson.

He's blindingly smart, and active. And like a lot of those kinds of kids, he can be a real pain. My step-daughter has taken to slapping his wrist when he gets really out of hand. but there are times when he'll go really wild, then run over to my step-daughter with his wrist held out to be spanked. It's like "go ahead and get it over with so I can run wild again."

Tough question. How can you physically punish someone you adore? :shrug:

[rene moon]

29. I was spanked and I turned out ok

It was never done in anger and I was told why I was going to be spanked. I don't believe in beating kids. Kids are tougher than you think. If I have children, spanking will be a part of the displine, along with communication and love.

[whoYaCallinAlib]

43. Do your kids a favor. Learn other ways to discipline.

You can thank me later for the advice.

[mkregel]

32. Well I hate to defend Dr. Phil but....

Not only is he against spanking, he's against the war in Iraq. He had Medea Benjamin right before the war, when there were protests going on in the streets. And he said he felt that Bush had not made a good enough case to go to war with Iraq.

[whoYaCallinAlib]

33. Spanking is child abuse.

Spin it, color it, fog it up all you want. Hitting a kid is so wrong. If you can't hit your wife (thank God), why should you be allowed to hit your kid?

[Aristus]

35. Well, there's a difference between punching and beating your kids

because you're a hate-filled monster with no self-control, and administering a punishment because the kid in question needs to learn the boundaries of acceptable behavior. It's the difference between a summary execution, and a short stretch at a minimum-security after a fair trial. Bad analogy, I know, but sometimes, a 'time-out' doesn't work.

[whoYaCallinAlib]

40. Hitting a child is hitting a child. It's sick.

There are nonviolent ways to teach your kids "the boundaries" as you say. I'm sad that you don't seem to realize that.

[Sushi_lover]

34. Spanking is against DFACS regulations

(Department of Family and Child Services)

foster parent training stresses you will no longer be a foster parent if you intentionally give pain to a child for discipline purposes. You may not spank or hit. You may not have anyone else do it for you.

[Sushi_lover]

36. What after violence?

If violence is the means of last resort, what after? PNAC and Israel should ponder that question. So should parents.

Are we saying there are legitimate forms of violence? That's quite a moral gymnastic to say there are.

[Rich Hunt]

37. I was never spanked

My parents were very libertarian. They talked to us like adults - we would have a discussion about why something was wrong. I have a sister who is much younger, and when she was little, I tried this whenever she was acting up - I would try to engage her in a rational discussion.

It always worked!

Spanking, to me, says, "you're my property and you're something to be managed."

What it did do, however, was make me very skeptical of authority. I suppose in most people's minds, I was corrupted, then, because I had too much self-esteem to take shit from teachers or bosses.

[greekspeak]

39. Spanking

i think a lot of this boils down the motivations for spanking. There is spanking a child because you are a tyrrant and you are angry with them. Put along with this "because I said so" and "don't question me." I am really torn on this issue right now. In theory, spanking can be a positive reinforcement for a child. However, the way things are going anymore, punishments are dealt out for poor reasons and with little recourse. Get a speeding ticket, pay a fine. Pay more insurance. Pay with points on a license. Pay Pay Pay Pay Pay. To me, something is not wrong because it is against the law. Or because "I said so" or because someone else in a position of power is a bully. Children need to learn why they are being punished....that is the point of the punishment. Not because we are angry, or it is just against some rule. They need to know why and learn from the experience.

[whoYaCallinAlib]

41. You can teach them without spanking.

Spanking is primitive, vile and is child abuse pure and simple.

[NashVegas]

45. The ONE I Will Recall for All Time

When I was in first grade, I wandered to the other side of town (well it was only about 20 blocks in reality but it SEEMED like the other side) with a couple of friends, without telling anyone, and we got semi-lost. Three hours later, we figured our way back, none the worse for the wear. Mom, however, was another matter. Got sent to my room, no dinner, the works, and much later when things had calmed down, the spanking. What I remember more than the spanking itself (waaaaah) was how wigged out my mom was when she saw me walk up to the driveway. Never did pull that trick again.

[qb]

50. We have two kids - 3 and 6 - never been spanked

We get compliments on their behavior all the time. Sure, they still misbehave from time to time - you just have to figure out the right consequences.

If you can't figure it out, go check out some parenting books.