A CREDIT CARD Dilemma....

[ChiciB1]

This could be the wrong place to talk about this, but since D.U. is full of so many educated and wonderful people, I'm doing it anyway. If this isn't relevant, or deemed breaking a rule, then the thread can be locked. I posted this under another thread, but it's off the page now and I doubt many will see it. So here goes.

I need some help with a problem regarding "credit cards' and I'm not sure what to do about it.

Recently, I lent a family member use of my credit card for ONE transaction. I got the card back, but THEY had the number. Since I rarely use the card, imagine my surprise when my billing came in and the balance was over $8500.00! This card has 2 different people as co-owners and I don't want to press fraud charges, however the OTHER person does. This other person never used the card, nor did they pay the payments, ever! I've talked to the card company and requested the account be closed. My first question is.... since the company allowed the card to be used without the actual card being shown, AND they also allowed the balance to go over limit by $1000.00 +, do I have ANY recourse with the credit card company?? Or will I have to file fraud charges??

My second question is... Since the other person wants to file fraud charges, they had a detective contact me stating that the balance needed to be paid within 2 weeks. They didn't tell me what I would be charged with, and I'm suspicious that a detective contacted me in the first place. Since I had already spoken to the card company and had the account closed, isn't it up to the credit card company as to whether I can be charged with a crime??

The account is not past due and never has been, AND I just paid $2,500.00 to bring the balance down. Now I'm having 2nd thoughts about the credit card company since they should never have approved any use once the card maxed out. Also, I think someone should have alerted me that the card was being used at such a fast and furious pace, especially since there had never been a lot of activity with the card.

My reasons for not filing fraud charges ARE complicated, and yes I know I shouldn't protect ANYONE, but my heart's not in it. The person is an immediate family member who has a drug problem and is now in rehab.

Is it common for detectives to contact a person and demand payment??? Shouldn't that be done legally through the court system?? Don't some sort of papers have to be filed?? Isn't it up to the credit card company???

And yes, I AM asking for FREE legal help!!! Sorry.

[cdsilv]

1. I had something similar happen to me....

I protested the charges, and let the CC company go after the person who did the charges (I don't really know who did it, but I have some suspects). They removed the charges from my account.

It was their decision whether or not to pursue the perps, I don't know if they ever did.

[acmejack]

2. Me too

It was a family member, I ended up paying it.

[ChiciB1]

10. It Stinks, Huh????

And we ain't talking chicken feed here either. When I saw the items that were charged I flipped. One item... an $800.00 necklace (just because??) and I have never even owned a piece of jewelry that cost that much. Not even my wedding rings! I got married during Viet Nam!

Shoes, clothes, dining at good restaurants, clothes, a car stereo system, it goes on and on. Quite a few stores, and nobody wanted to see the ACTUAL card!!!

Amazing! I'm afraid I'm just too chicken to even try a stunt like this! My hands would be shaking so hard they would lock me up right away!

[one_true_leroy]

3. companies will raise the limit unexpectedly as a 'courtesy'

nothing you can say or do about it post facto. mine goes up at least $1k/year, though i've never requested and never have more than 10% on it.

[nhdb]

4. Two Choices

Since you gave them the credit card and it is a family member, I think you have two options ....

Pay it off ....
Or let them be prosecuted for credit card fraud ....

If they can establish that you gave them the card ... you're probably on the hook for it .....

Remember, No good deed goes unpunished.

Dale

[newyawker99]

18. Hi nhdb!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[chicagomd]

5. Family...

Things are always complicated when family members are involved.

In Illinois, you are only responsible for $50.00 of fraudulently made purchases on your credit card. It is best to identify those charges as soon as you see them and notify the company of the ones you wish to challenge, and tell them you will not pay them until an investigation is done.

Personally, at this point I would notify the credit card company that you are not going to pay for any of the charges you did not authorize and contact an attorney. (For sure don't talk to the police without one.) You might have to make the minimum payment to avoid destroying your credit rating.

DISCLAIMER: I have no legal training what-so-ever, but I do like "Law and Order".

EDIT: Although if you do this, you might have to deal with the fact your family member is probably going to be prosecuted.

[Hugin]

17. "did not authorize"

Key phrase... Check the back of the CC statement. There, I
believe it says, the card holder is not liable for unauthorized
charges above a certain amount. $50.00 sticks in my mind. The
$50.00 is usually only necessary if the reporting isn't done
"Immediately" (Whatever they deem the time frame to be.)

When this is done, however, the balance is usually charged
to what ever company made the charges.

So, all those fine restaurants, shoe stores, jewelers ... etc.
will be gunning for your "family member" for their money.

To facilitate the companies in fraud cases in instances like
this (Where the perpetrator is known) the CC usually sets up
an account in the perpetrator's name with the balance of charges
liened against them.

Sorry to say... I know it's a family member, but, they
perpetrated a crime.

[1932]

20. There might also be a requirement that you take reasonable steps to...

...protect your credit card details. If you tell someone your card info so they can make a purchase, then that might trump the limitation and the card company might not be willing to reverse the charges.

[1932]

21. One thing to consider is suing the person to get the money back.

You don't have to bring criminal charges if you don't want to. You don't have to get the credit card company involved if you don't want to. But you can definitely sue this person in civil court for breach of contract.

You should talk to a lawyer and make sure you know all your options and you should do it quickly. You might only have 30 or 180 days to notify the card company if decide to go that route.

[SoCalDem]

26. When our number was used fraudulently, they asked me thses questions

1. Did I authorize anyone not listed on the account, to use the card
2. Did I have possession of the actual cards
3. Would I mail them a photocopy of the actual cards (with number blacked out) ..to verify that we had not left a card laying around. this was before the little 3 digit number on the backs .

They never even charged me the $50, because the fraud investigatoir already had an idea of what happened.. there was a common business in 6 cases he was working, and yes my husband had used our card to pick up some blueprints at that place..

The creeps bought 2 first class tickets to SanFrancisco...3 tickets to Vegas..a bunch of electronic stuff.. They charged almost $12K worth of stuff..

[newyawker99]

19. Hi chicagomd!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Kelvin Mace]

6. You will have to sign an affidavit of fraud

and they will go after the person who ran up the charges.

They will not make a police issue of it as long as the person makes restitution. They want money, not blood, unless thye can't get the money.

[hfojvt]

7. If you can find it

read your credit card agreement, or ask them for a copy. That will be the best information as to whether you have a recourse. With a stolen card, you are not liable for more than $100.
You card was stolen, for all the other transactions except the one you authorized. However, the sticking point is that if you report it as stolen, then the CCC presses charges. I do not see that you have much recourse given that sticking point. You might talk to your relative and see if some of the purchases can be returned.

[Kelvin Mace]

8. Oops, on your second question

No, they cannot charge you with fraud, they are bluffing. The "detective" is probably from the company. Did he identify which law enforcement agency he was from? I would tell him to show up in person and present his credentials before you speak with him again. If he is legit and shows up, don't talk to him, tell him you will consult your attorney about his threats.

[ChiciB1]

9. Thanks For THIS Info....

Is this a link to check these things out??? I suspect the "detective" was a scare tactic initiated by the "other person" named on the card. THAT relationship is on the skids! No contact anymore and I think it's some sort of payback. This is the clarification I want.

No I don't relish having to pay the bill, and I am going to try to get signed affidavits from the (3) people who actually had such a good time at my expense. What is such a shock is that they didn't even NEED the card for ANY transaction.

Me, I go somewhere and they want my LIFE History, driver's license or whatever else they deem necessary. And I haven't bounced a check that I can ever recall. Take that back.... it did happen before when I thought I had made several deposits but found them in my desk drawer at work. It wasn't intentional, and I was MUCH younger. Ah, youth!

[radwriter0555]

12. as a last resort, you should continue to pay the minimum payment and sue

the kids for the money or make them return the items they bought...

[rumpel]

11. It is a tough one. My daughter has in the past taken my cards and made

unauthorized internet purchases. I only found this by constantly checking the bills. It is certainly minimal in amount compared to what you are going through, yet it is theft. The issuer bank, let me decide whether I wanted to press charges, since it was my daughter. So I did not. But since it was a repeated offense, I finally told my daughter I will report her the next time she steals, and I will not defend her. So far, she has not done it since. (about a year and a half now)

So this is not legal advice, just from what I have learned.

Have you confronted your family member? What does he or she intend to do to remedy your situation if at all?

On the fraud charges, my gut feeling is, the other person can not file fraud charges, unless you as the other party to the original agreement agree to it. But who wants to file fraud charges against whom and for what is not clear to me. Who suffered damages?

It sounds like you are the only one with actual damages, unless you stop payments and the other person is held liable for it.

I would check who this "detective" is and under whose authority is changing the credit card payment agreement with the card company. (demanding full payment in 2 weeks)
Besides, I don't think you committed fraud. You may have been negligent in having a family member "pretend" to be you. But you are paying it down as you say.

Credit companies, I have learned make their money from late fees and over the limit fees, as well as once you have crossed the limit they can change the interest rate to whatever the company pleases. So they love to see people go over the limit. They will not warn you.

I would not have asked the account closed, my understanding is that it hurts your credit. But if the family member still has access to it, and you do not wish to place a fraud alert, I would have requested a new card (new numbers) Also, I have a feeling if you request the account to be closed, the card company could request payment in full. So maybe that is what is happening?
Normally, as long as you pay even the minimum, I can't see anyone being able to threaten you with any legal action.

I would have a family pow wow and see if anyone else is willing to chip in. I am sorry to say, it is quite a lot of money, and you may end up paying it or filing charges against the family member after all.
If you feel you want to help that person, it would be nice to get an agreement signed by him or her, that after rehab he or she will start making payments to you, and give him or her a chance to be responsible.

good luck

[ChiciB1]

16. Thanks For The Kind Advice...

I did contact the parents of the OTHER offenders, HOWEVER as is regularly the case they simply said they weren't liable since only ONE person signed the fraudulent charges. And what is even more offensive is that one of them is married to their family member. So they have no problem letting the other person take the rap! Ain't family life great!

I have NOW decided that I will CONFRONT this "detective" armed with the great information I have received from all of you.

I have DEMANDED that all 3 parties sign a statement saying they benefited from the purchases and in fact were there when they were made. The person who signed was a male and many many of the purchases were for female items, such as jewelry, clothing and the like. Males don't wear too many crop tops and corsets these days UNLESS they are either cross-dressers or something of that nature.

THIS IS NOT THE CASE! That much I do know.

[David Zephyr]

13. Well, I would press charges.

1.) Otherwise you are liable for the charges.
2.) The individual that did this lied to you.
3.) The individual that did this to you apparently could have cared less about the impact that this would have on your life.
4.) Your heart's not in it? This individual thinks you are a fool and is playing you, even now, as one.

[1932]

23. I disagree.

You could really ruin someone's life by bringing criminal charges and a civil suit might be enough to get the money back.

[BooScout]

14. Some ?'s

The other person that is a co-owner.....was he an actual co-applicant or did you apply for the card and then add his name as a co-cardholder? It makes a difference as to whose credit was used to establish the card. If you are the principal cardholder then the other "co-owner" doesn't have much sayso, neither are they usually liable for any debts occurred. If it was a co-credit issuance where both your credit histories was used to issue the card and grant limits then he may be able to file fraud charges without your permission. If the card was issued in his name and you were added as a co-cardholder without your credit being taking into account then your ex may bear the full burden of repayment of the debt.

Don't try to walk away from the debt with the credit card company. If you do it could take years to sort your credit out. You lent the person your card initially and I would be willing to bet your credit card agreement expressly prohibits that.

Was the detective a private one working for your ex or for the card company or was he an actual police officer?

It would have been nice of the credit card company to alert you to the charges piling up, but they are not legally obligated to do so. All they have to do is send you your monthly bill.

All the above said..............I am not an attorney, but do have some experience with fraud.

And one more bit of opinion....you don't do the person in rehab any favors by protecting them. Sometimes a dose of reality is what a person like that needs instead of a well-intentioned family member trying to protect them out of love.

[lectrobyte]

15. It's a dilemma. Having been through some family problems

similar, but on a smaller scale, then I'd be tempted to let it slide, but it seems like a lot of money, and what if they do it to someone else in your family?

[Taxloss]

22. This is theft.

If you gave you relative a key to a cashbox to take $100, and they took the $100, but you later found they had made an impression of the key and returned to take $8500, would you react differently? I think you might. Your relative needs help, but they may need a scare from the law before they get it.

[ChiciB1]

24. Thanks For All The Good Advice....

I'm trying to make a decision that is overwhelmingly difficult. I'm thankful that so many responded, this in itself is helpful.

Yes, it's theft, it's and affront, it's depressing and most of all it's a stab in my heart. I'm sure I'll survive, many have it worse than I, so I guess I'll just have to think this one through.

It's almost like "around sound" coming at me from everywhere. I want to resolve this ASAP, but feel a little boxed in.

So I try to remember those in Darfur or the Sudan and think "why should I complain?" I just need to know where I stand, and obviously not being a person of wealth, $8500.00 plus is a little daunting.

Funny, I just started reading a book called "Things Happen For A Reason" last week. Talk about premonition!!!!

[LunaC]

25. Allowing the perpetrator off the hook

is ENABLING them. There are consequences for bad behavior and failing to prosecute sends a message that what they did is okay because Somebody Else (YOU!) will take care of it. Tough Love is a bitch to enforce but you have to draw the line to protect yourself. Prosecuting will also help your case with the credit card folks as far as fraud and your liability is concerned.

Just a little insight from someone who's Been There, Done That.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

33. i tend to agree.

i would make it very clear to whoever did this to me that this type of behavior wouldn't be tolerated.

the "family" rule is a two-way street. anybody who steals (and how much moreso when they steal from family) needs to have the cuffs slapped on them. I would probably press charges, for their own good.

and for the OP:

and for how much? almost 9000 dollars? granted I'm pretty poor, but that would be a devastating amount of money to lose for me. perhaps I'm not the best respondent to this question.

anyway, I'm sorry for this problem you are having and I hope your family member gets the help he/she needs. It must be a very difficult position to be in and I will send some good vibes your way.

[SoCalDem]

27. Does the person have things of value, that you could claim for payment?

:)What DID they buy?? Could it be returned?

[ChiciB1]

29. Well... Dinner Can't Be Returned!

There were a lot of clothing items, a stereo system that was installed in a truck, jewelry that I found out already got pawned (????), that cost $800.00 (new).

I was shocked to see one dinner outing that cost around $200.00! Big meal I guess, or BIG SHOT treating everyone! Payments made for cell-phone service, just lots and lots of stuff!

It's not like I don't know WHO, What When & Where.... it's just I need to know WHAT!!

I tried contacting the mother of 2 of the other people involved, she said her kids denied it.... end of story. The parents are divorced so I found out where the father lives and I'll call him tonight. The actual next payment isn't due until 7-20-2005, so I think I actually have SOME time here, but I want to clear this up and be rid of it!

There were 3 of them involved, but only one will take responsibility and will protect the others and take blame for them. This isn't good enough for me, I think if I take one down, ALL of them should go down. This I don't know HOW to do!

[SoCalDem]

32. Truthfully, you';ll be doing them a favor by turning them in

I am assuming that they are young, and if this is their FIRST outing with this sort of thing, look out!

If they are minors, you might approach their parents like this.

"..." is going to be prosecuted for fraud.,.,his/her share is roughly $3K. You will probably spend more than that on lawyers, so if you are willing to pay his/her share, they might escape the fraud charges if they have already made restitution..

[CBGLuthier]

28. A little advice for the future

It's so easy to check card activity online. Get in the habit of checking your cards at least a few times a week. When I had a little trouble with fraud a few years ago I caught it within a couple days and was able to get everything cleaned up easily. No telling how high it would have gone by the time statements rolled around.

[ChiciB1]

30. Great Advice...

This most definitely will be done. But for now, I don't think I WANT a credit card!

I NEVER thought it was something I would have to be concerned with, but then that's like saying "Well, that stuff always happens to someone else", right??

Lessons learned!

[newportdadde]

31. You lent your credit card to a drug addict?

AND your not the sole owner of the card... as in a business card?

Dang.. horrible call.. horrible.

What to do now.. I guess I would prosecute.

[ChiciB1]

34. Didn't Know About The Drugs....

And no it WASN'T a Business card.

[Coventina]

35. I used to be a fraud investigator for a major CC company

According to the credit card agreement that the cardholders agree to by using the card, if you give your cc# to a person, even once, it makes them an authorized user forever.

If the person you gave it to breaks the agreement that they had with YOU, that is not something the credit card company can control.

Any cardmembers listed on the account are liable for all the charges made on the account by any authorized users.

The fact that you gave the # to someone, and then they abused it has put the other cardmember on your account in a difficult position because they are equally responsible for those charges.

Yeah, it stinks. I saw situations like this every day when I was in that line of work. I'm glad I'm not doing that anymore.

But the bottom line is, you gave the number to that person.

Read your cardmember agreement. It may be different from the one my former company used.

on edit: If the merchants violated their agreement with cc company by accepting a cc number and no card present, you may be able to collect from the individual merchants.

[ChiciB1]

36. Thought My Thread Had Died....

so didn't see this earlier. Your input and suggestions make a lot of sense to me. Combined with other input, I think I have a pretty clear picture of what I'm facing here.

In the end, the shock of what has happened and the reasoning behind it has made me a more intuitive person. I'll never stop "trusting" in my own way.... now I look at it differently.

It was a shot in the arm!