I need advice from people wiser than I am.

[Maddy McCall]

Or at least from people who can steer me the right way in dealing with my son's ex-best friend's bitch mother.

Anyone want to hear the story?

EDIT: OK, here's the story.

In the church in which I was raised, a woman always worked in the nursery, and I loved to go to the nursery when I was a kid and play with the babies. I became very close to the woman who ran the nursery. This woman is not the bitch. She is very dear to my heart, someone I have always loved and always will love, and she will be devastated if I decide to call her and tell he what has been going on with her grandson, who is (was) my son's best friend.

Last September, my son became very good friends with a kid (grandson of the woman above) at school. The kid called the house constantly, and asked to spend the night here all the time. I basically adopted him on weekends--he spent every weekend here, and he even called me "Number Two Mommy." Why was he here EVERY weekend, you ask?

Because his mother cheats on his father (I am also very fond of the father). Several years ago, the father caught the mother cheating and she told him that she wanted a divorce. He didn't want to break up the family, so he told her that she could continue to cheat as long as she didn't do it in front of him and kept it very discreet. So, what does she do? Every weekend, she goes to New Orleans and whores around with guys she's never met. She fucks in cars. She fucks in hotel rooms. She has threesomes. Whatever. And then, when she came to pick her son up at my house on every Sunday afternoon, she dumped her garbage on me--told me everything she had done over the weekend. (I was always astonished--I had been raised with her husband, and I consider him a good friend, and I wondered why she would risk telling ME all of her shit, considering that I basically tended to her kid and am good friends with her husband's family.)

When her kid was with me, if I took them to the mall and he asked me for some little trinket (like a t-shirt or spiked wrist band, for instance) I bought it for him. If I found a deal on a football and bought one for my son, I'd throw down an additional $5 and get the kid one.

I did NOT shower the kid with gifts. He'd ask me for stuff; I'd usually buy it if it was within reason. I am only telling you about this aspect of this story because it will become important in a second.

The kid all of the sudden stopped calling my son. He wouldn't text back when my son texted him. When my son called him (maybe four times in the past two months) the kid would have an excuse to get off of the phone quickly.

Well, yesterday, I think my son had an epiphany that this kid doesn't want to be his friend anymore. So he texted him this. "I'm tired of texting and calling and you not answering or having an excuse to get off of the phone all the sudden. What's the deal? I'm tired of wasting my time on our friendship if you don't want to be my friend anymore."

This began WWIII. The kid calls my house, my son picks up, and the kid lambasts my son, screaming, and cursing him. Telling my son that he doesn't have time to call him anymore because he is spending the night with OTHER friends now. (Funny--because this kid had no other friends--and he had only himself to blame. When he became friends with my son, he ridiculed my son's other friends, until finally my son told him to lay off of it.)

Well, NO ONE BUT NO ONE CALLS MY HOUSE AND SCREAMS AND CURSES MY CHILD. I told my son to give me the phone. Remember, this kid calls me #2 Mommy. Remember that I had kept this kid EVERY weekend since September, up until about two months ago when suddenly the calls stopped.

The kid HUNG UP ON ME. I called back. He wouldn't answer the phone. I loaded my son in the car and I went to his house, where I knew his mother would be (she is a beautician and has a shop by her house.)

I stuck my head in her beauty shop door, and she was working on a client. I told her that we needed to chit chat as soon as possible, and that I understood that she was busy but could she call me as soon as she had some free time.

Well, the woman sitting in the chair, having her hair done, said "Is this about Kid ONe and Kid Two? I heard the phone call. Your kid was screaming at Kid One." I said, "And who are YOU?" And the mother said "This is my mother."

So, the kid's mom wants to discuss this with her mother sitting there. She tells me how my son is "pressuring" her son. I said, "Oh really? Was he pressuring him a month ago when your kid called to tell me that it was his birthday and wanted to know when we are going to bring his birthday gift over?"

I said, "Look, the ball is in your court. If you want to talk about this and try to work it out, call me. I don't think it is appropriate to talk about this with people who know nothing of the situation, even though they might think they do."

Ok, here's more background info on the story. In the year that my son and this kid have been best friends, the kid has had to stay with me when his mother's brother was busted for dealing meth. The kid's other uncle who has a crack addiction moved into his house, so the kid spent a LOT of time with me during that time.

Well, I've hardly broken into this story, but I just want to give you an idea what is going on. I feel like my son and I have been used and thrown away.

The woman I mentioned in the first paragraph, the woman I know and love very well--the grandmother on the other side--doesn't know this story, but I want to call and talk to her, so that she doesn't hear the polution that her daughter in law is spreading. We gave this child stability when he had none at home. His kind grandmother knows that. She would be appalled to hear what has happened. She was so happy that the kids had become close friends.

Help from anyone is appreciated. Advice. Whatever. Thanks.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

1. Sure...I'll help you verbally deck the bitch

[Maddy McCall]

4. Ok. I'm going to edit the original post.

Might take me ten minutes to lay the story out. I am SOOOO glad you are online. I really need to get this out of my system.

OK, here's the story.

In the church in which I was raised, a woman always worked in the nursery, and I loved to go to the nursery when I was a kid and play with the babies. I became very close to the woman who ran the nursery. This woman is not the bitch. She is very dear to my heart, someone I have always loved and always will love, and she will be devastated if I decide to call her and tell he what has been going on with her grandson, who is (was) my son's best friend.

Last September, my son became very good friends with a kid (grandson of the woman above) at school. The kid called the house constantly, and asked to spend the night here all the time. I basically adopted him on weekends--he spent every weekend here, and he even called me "Number Two Mommy." Why was he here EVERY weekend, you ask?

Because his mother cheats on his father (I am also very fond of the father). Several years ago, the father caught the mother cheating and she told him that she wanted a divorce. He didn't want to break up the family, so he told her that she could continue to cheat as long as she didn't do it in front of him and kept it very discreet. So, what does she do? Every weekend, she goes to New Orleans and whores around with guys she's never met. She fucks in cars. She fucks in hotel rooms. She has threesomes. Whatever. And then, when she came to pick her son up at my house on every Sunday afternoon, she dumped her garbage on me--told me everything she had done over the weekend. (I was always astonished--I had been raised with her husband, and I consider him a good friend, and I wondered why she would risk telling ME all of her shit, considering that I basically tended to her kid and am good friends with her husband's family.)

When her kid was with me, if I took them to the mall and he asked me for some little trinket (like a t-shirt or spiked wrist band, for instance) I bought it for him. If I found a deal on a football and bought one for my son, I'd throw down an additional $5 and get the kid one.

I did NOT shower the kid with gifts. He'd ask me for stuff; I'd usually buy it if it was within reason. I am only telling you about this aspect of this story because it will become important in a second.

The kid all of the sudden stopped calling my son. He wouldn't text back when my son texted him. When my son called him (maybe four times in the past two months) the kid would have an excuse to get off of the phone quickly.

Well, yesterday, I think my son had an epiphany that this kid doesn't want to be his friend anymore. So he texted him this. "I'm tired of texting and calling and you not answering or having an excuse to get off of the phone all the sudden. What's the deal? I'm tired of wasting my time on our friendship if you don't want to be my friend anymore."

This began WWIII. The kid calls my house, my son picks up, and the kid lambasts my son, screaming, and cursing him. Telling my son that he doesn't have time to call him anymore because he is spending the night with OTHER friends now. (Funny--because this kid had no other friends--and he had only himself to blame. When he became friends with my son, he ridiculed my son's other friends, until finally my son told him to lay off of it.)

Well, NO ONE BUT NO ONE CALLS MY HOUSE AND SCREAMS AND CURSES MY CHILD. I told my son to give me the phone. Remember, this kid calls me #2 Mommy. Remember that I had kept this kid EVERY weekend since September, up until about two months ago when suddenly the calls stopped.

The kid HUNG UP ON ME. I called back. He wouldn't answer the phone. I loaded my son in the car and I went to his house, where I knew his mother would be (she is a beautician and has a shop by her house.)

I stuck my head in her beauty shop door, and she was working on a client. I told her that we needed to chit chat as soon as possible, and that I understood that she was busy but could she call me as soon as she had some free time.

Well, the woman sitting in the chair, having her hair done, said "Is this about Kid ONe and Kid Two? I heard the phone call. Your kid was screaming at Kid One." I said, "And who are YOU?" And the mother said "This is my mother."

So, the kid's mom wants to discuss this with her mother sitting there. She tells me how my son is "pressuring" her son. I said, "Oh really? Was he pressuring him a month ago when your kid called to tell me that it was his birthday and wanted to know when we are going to bring his birthday gift over?"

I said, "Look, the ball is in your court. If you want to talk about this and try to work it out, call me. I don't think it is appropriate to talk about this with people who know nothing of the situation, even though they might think they do."

Ok, here's more background info on the story. In the year that my son and this kid have been best friends, the kid has had to stay with me when his mother's brother was busted for dealing meth. The kid's other uncle who has a crack addiction moved into his house, so the kid spent a LOT of time with me during that time.

Well, I've hardly broken into this story, but I just want to give you an idea what is going on. I feel like my son and I have been used and thrown away.

The woman I mentioned in the first paragraph, the woman I know and love very well--the grandmother on the other side--doesn't know this story, but I want to call and talk to her, so that she doesn't hear the polution that her daughter in law is spreading. We gave this child stability when he had none at home. His kind grandmother knows that. She would be appalled to hear what has happened. She was so happy that the kids had become close friends.

Help from anyone is appreciated. Advice. Whatever. Thanks.

[MuseRider]

38. My only suggestion

after reading NSMA's post is that I would just speak with the Grandmother and simply explain that some bad things have been going on and that you hope when the stories get to her she will consider that they may be one sided. I would not go into it with her. Just ask her to understand because my guess is that she cares as much for you as you do her and getting her stuck in the middle with all the "he said, she said" stuff might change that. Take it from there, let her settle with the info she gets and then if she comes to you, you could tell her your story then.

:hug: It hurts. I had a friend something like that who used an entire group of other mothers and their kids. We all have remained friends after we figured it all out except for the one mother who has burned through the community so fast I doubt she has any friends left. :hug:

Edit for spelling

[Maddy McCall]

63. I'm not going to call her...but I know that I will run into her...

we shop at the same little grocery store in town. I see her several times a month there. When I see her next time, I am sure she will bring it up.

She was so happy that the boys were friends and that her grandson was spending so much time here. I'm sure that she will have something to say to her DIL. I won't have to provoke it. It will happen on its own.

[MuseRider]

68. That is what I was thinking

but I wanted to be certain that your friendship to her would stay precious. Friends like that are so good to have, I am glad to know that she will be OK with you (as she should be). Still, a very difficult situation. :hug: again. Stinks that you have to be in this situation.

[LastKnight]

2. sure, hit us.

[Maddy McCall]

10. Please see the update

[DemBones DemBones]

3. Sure, tell us. The cast sounds interesting.

:hippie:

[Maddy McCall]

11. Please see the edit update.

[MuseRider]

5. Is this the kid

we talked about a few weeks ago? Go for it. I'll listen but I am not wiser, just been there.

[Maddy McCall]

12. Yes. It's the same kid.

I just realized what a lying little bastard he is, and I see where he got it. From his whore-dog mother.

[barb162]

6. let's hear it

[Maddy McCall]

13. Please read the edit to the OP

[achtung_circus]

7. We're all ears. nt

[Maddy McCall]

14. Please read the OP edit.

[progmom]

8. i'm ready to get pissed off on your behalf

:hi:

[Maddy McCall]

15. I'm so pissed...

And I feel that I can't do anything, because I don't want to be one of "those" mothers. But I can't let this stand, because obviously the bitch is gossiping about my family.

[Tsiyu]

9. Full of shit here, but I'll make sympathetic noises

:popcorn:

[Maddy McCall]

16. Sympathetic noises are appreciated.

:D

[Tsiyu]

77. There, there, dear Maddy

What a mess.

I totally understand your hurt and concerns for your child and the older woman you respect and admire. Sounds like you've calmed down now (sometimes when I'm really pissed I act too impulsively - good for you for getting some advice BEFORE you went off on the Mother From Hell).

IMHO: This has been a great lesson for your son: in the end it is better to lose a friend than to try to hang onto someone who is only using you.

Kids watch and learn and the other boy has obviously seen Mama dump on others so he subconciously or otherwise views that as "normal." Something tells me that there is more to it on his end: embarrassment over home life or something to trigger his sudden coldness, but you have been good to this kid and have done all you can to help him and should let that be your light here.

The other kid is going to be screwed up from Mama's duplicity and maybe right now it's better the friendship breaks off before he steers your son in a bad direction.

I agree with your conclusion to let things develop naturally with the older woman and other mutual friends/family. I have upset myself greatly in the past if I found out someone was spreading lies about me and vowed to plead my case to everyone. But I really never needed to.

The older woman knows who you are and will still care for you in spite of this. But it may only embarrass her to be confronted with how much you know about her screwed up daughter, and that discomfort might cause her to grow distant.

My two cents: Say what you must to defend yourself if attacked outright, but don't vent on the woman or her husband. Express your concern and ask both she and the Dad if you can help them in any way and then help your son find more healthy friends.

Nothing others didn't say here, but my heart hurts for your son and I thought I'd support you all by blabbing myself.

Hope it gets better for both of you this weekend! :grouphug:

And congrats for not decking the woman!

[progmom]

17. oh shit. your poor kid.

x(

My instinct would be to just call it a loss and cut ties. Tell your kid that Kid B has a really difficult life and that he shouldn't take it personally. That your kid was great to be so kind to him, but sometimes people aren't kind back. I'm glad to hear he has other good friends.

Well, no, my first instinct would be to go back to the beauty shop and beat the crap out of the mom, but I probably wouldn't recommend that. ;)

[Maddy McCall]

18. Well, I at least want to call the grandmother who loves us...

and tell her that she might hear some bad stuff about us, but that we always treated Drew with dignity and we were there when he needed us, and that I'm very sad that their friendship has ended, but I want her to know that we didn't do anything to harm the child.

What do you think about this? The grandmother knows all of the drama that has played out in her son's marriage to the bitch. She's a wise old lady and a very good family friend.

[progmom]

21. i would call the grandmother then

but not in anger, but rather out of concern for the boy. he's obviously ending up totally fucked up by his mother's situation, despite your steadying hand. :(

[Maddy McCall]

23. Yes, that's the tone I want to take when I call.

[Misunderestimator]

29. Well... after reading nsma's post below... I've changed my mind.

:)

[progmom]

39. you sound like a really great mom

at a certain point in our lives, those of us blessed with great parents realize that not everyone is as lucky.

your son sound really great, too. i love the text message he sent. :thumbsup:

[Maddy McCall]

46. Thanks, progmom.

:cry: I appreciate so very much this post. :hug:

[Sugar Smack]

19. Maddy-

You sincerely strike me as one of the most level-headed people whose posts I've ever read. I never told you this, but I appreciated what you had to say about another DUer who got canned, because it was true.

Any way, I would be enraged too, and by no means do I consider myself wiser. There's a lot of instability to that tart you were forced to deal with.

I've had similar experiences before, having a situation thrust on me by a person who was unstable. And then, as if they could AFFORD to do it, they turned on me. Well, I just want to say you are not the crazy one here. You have my complete respect & support.

[Maddy McCall]

25. My eyes are welling with tears.

Thank you for your very kind post. It means more to me than you can know.

:hug:

[Sugar Smack]

27. You're something else-

thank you!!!!!!


:hug: :hug:

[Misunderestimator]

20. How well do you know the husband?

Can you talk to him? If it was me... I would talk to the grandmother. You have known her longer than her daughter-in-law. You KNOW that the DIL will talk about this whole thing, and if you value your relationship with the grandmother... I think you should tell your side.

This is just awful. I feel awfully sorry for that kid (and for your kid for having to experience this)... bad situation all around. You were unbelievably generous, and it sucks to be slapped in the face like this when all you had done was good.

[Maddy McCall]

22. I know him well, but I don't want to be perceived as intruding in their...

marriage.

But I know the grandmother much better. And I want her to know that we never disrespected or "pressured" the child in any way. Ever.

I am REALLY considering calling the grandmother.

[Misunderestimator]

26. You should.... I would... call the grandmother.

And you're right about the husband... probably better to leave that alone. He's more than aware of who his wife is I'm sure.

[Maddy McCall]

31. I don't want to call the grandmother to tattle...

but just to let her know that we always treated the child with dignity, and that I still love the grandmother no matter what has happened.

[Misunderestimator]

35. Yeah, I get that.

It makes sense. You obviously do value your relationship with her.

[Maddy McCall]

41. Ok, I've absorbed the advice I've been given in this thread...

and I just read T's post again, and I've decided not to call. The grandmother knows what kind of a person I am. And she knows what kind of a person her daughter-in-law is.

I'll let our histories speak for themselves. :hug:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

24. OK, you're probably not going to like this BUT

The first order is to teach your son that some people are pig trash and those people have kids and the kid can take after the pig trash or not. In this case, the apple did not fall far from the tree.

When people show up and take and take and take or suggest you give and give and give, that should be your first clue and his.

Second, if you tell the grandmother, you might hurt the father who is also your friend, but that is up to you. Odds are she already knows about the wife since she is a mother to her son as you are.

Whatever you do, just know if you do it on principle, then at the heart of it you need to willing to risk ALL the relationships.

Don't do it out of protection for your son...all there is to teach him is how to be a good judge of character and recognize when people are using you (and admit you didn't really recognize it either.)

The kid on the other end is probably also upset with what is going on in his house...but he's a cruel little ass too.

YOur son will make other friends....just have him move on

[Misunderestimator]

28. Even though this advice is the opposite of mine...

After reading it... I agree with it. Confrontation may indeed be more destructive than just letting go. And we've all known people in our lives that truly are not worth the trouble this would be.

[barb162]

47. yeah but it would be a quiet discussion, not a confrontation

[Maddy McCall]

30. You are a one-of-a-kind person, NSMA.

Your wisdom is priceless to me.

I am probably going to call the grandmother just to tell her that we never mistreated her grandson and that I am sad that their frienship fell apart. And I want her to know how special she is to me and that I want nothing to get in the way of that.

It's not about principle with her. It's about being sure that she knows I love her and this won't change that. (I am certain that, when she hears what happened--but not from me, because I won't tell her the WHOLE story--she will be irate with her daughter-in-law. Like I said, though, I will not tell her all that I spilled out here. I just want her to know that I still love her and this won't change that.)

[Misunderestimator]

32. And that's a good compromise.

I think that it is appropriate to at least have a little closure with the grandmother... carefully.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

50. I really love you and your kid

He does not need to be a doormat to have friends. He is an intelligent, loving, well learned boy. That is more than enough to be worthy to good people. If one is unworthy to trash, that is the highest compliment they can pay you. Their sense of what is of worth is perverted. Remember that.

[Maddy McCall]

65. We love you, too, Teena.

Thanks so much for helping me sort this out. Anger clouded my mind, and I was not thinking rationally.

:hug:

[MuseRider]

33. GREAT answer. n/t

[johnnie]

36. I agree with you 100%

Although it sucks to lose people in your life, it will happen if you like it or not.
To Maddy, I think it is best to teach your son that sometimes people will change and they don't always change in the way you would like. That is part of life. To get involved with this woman's family and her problems is asking for trouble. Your son will find new friends.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

45. Dealing with breaking attachments is part of life

Letting go of people who at their heart are not a contribution to your life is healthy.

Her son hanging onto this friendship despite its destructiveness at its heart is not healthy..the pain of attachment goes away...the pain of letting someone treat you like shit just to have them around creates a condition of poor self worth.

[Maddy McCall]

48. My kid knows that I have good friends on DU.

He knows that you are the one with whom I've chatted several times on the telephone. I read your post above to him--edited a little of course--and he was proud to feel that you are in his corner.

Your sentence above--about letting someone mistreat you just so they'll be around--well, that's the final spur I need.

I'm completely divorcing my son and myself from this situation. I just call-blocked their telephone numbers on the home phone, and I blocked the child's text number on my son's cell phone, so we won't have to deal with them anymore.

:hug:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

52. Don't block it on the kid's phone

Leave that to him to do..or have a conversation with him about what HE will do if the little pusswagon calls or texts him

Have a conversation with him about the plus's and minus's of hanging out with Drew...odds are there were more minus's anyway and my little buddy decided it was better to deal with all the minus's than to be alone. It isn't.

[progmom]

54. i agree

[Maddy McCall]

56. Ok, I unblocked it. I just chatted with him about what you said.

My son's reply: "You can block people's numbers on my phone? I want to block his number, mama. I don't ever want to talk to him again."

So, unblocked and then re-blocked. :-)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

57. OK, cool..as long as it comes from him

[Maddy McCall]

64. My son did text the mother yesterday...

immediately after all of this came down, and told her that he wanted back his video games that the kid had borrowed. She didn't respond.

So he called her last night and said that he wanted his games back, and she said that her son had lent them to his cousins, and that it would take a couple of days to get them back, but that she would drop them off at my parents' house.

God help the bitch if she tries to drag my parents into this, though. They never liked her anyway...and were well aware of her exploits long before my son befriended her son. Indeed, they told me to go carefully with the friendship early on.

[barb162]

34. "I want to call and talk to her"

DO it! Try to be as non-confrontational with her as you can and make it more of an informational discussion and also let her know you feel, that is, used and angry. Get it off your chest. It sounds like the mother of the kid is a real asshole but then again who raised this woman? Do you really think it is possible she doesn't know her daughter is sleeping around? The uncles with meth and crack addiction are the brothers of the kid's mother? It sounds like the grandmother of the little boy has 3 very interesting children with a host of mental problems. In other words, talk to the grandmother of the kid BUT be very careful she doesn't sideswipe you and she very likely won't take a side against her own daughter. If the 3 adult children are hers (meth, crack, sex additions) she is not the good mother / person you think she is. Anyway that's my $.02

[Maddy McCall]

37. I'm not going to call the old biddy who was sitting in the chair...

that's the mother's mother. I am considering calling the grandmother on the child's father's side, who I have known all my life.

[barb162]

43. gotcha now and also as I was reading the previous posts

I was getting the grandmothers confused. Call the GOOD grandmother. Knowledge is power and I think she should know what's going on. Hell, you have basically been caring for HER grandson...that gives you the right to express your opinion.

[1monster]

40. Maddy, walk away from the situation. If the subject comes up with the

mother-in-law that you love, then tell her, but soft-pedal the garbage about her daughter-in-law. Tell her enough that she can see you were put into an impossible situation. You tried to give the kid stability and it didn't work.

I have a friend who had a similar relationship with her daughter's best friend.

The mother of her daughter's became jealous of the close relationshp between them and worked hard to undermine the friendship with the two girls (which she succeeded at) and did her best to blacken the name of my friend.

At one point there were even some threatening and eirie phone calls which severly unnerved my friend. And the mother of the girl actually tried to have charges pressed against my friend because of an e-mail she sent the daughter which had an innocuous message for her mom. (My friend occasionally worked in the school both girls attended and the daughter would skip the classes when my friend was there... things got really ugly.)

It took about a year for things to die down and it wasn't pretty. Don't get involved anymore than you are now. Some people are UGLY CRAZY. This woman sounds like that.

And the kid will follow his mother's lead. She is his mother and he probably has very conflicting emotions about all of it. Right now, she is probably paying more attention to him in order to get him away form you and that is potent medicine to use on an obviously neglected child.

The father should go ahead and divorce the woman and sue for custody... The kid would be better off. But don't suggest that to him either...

[Maddy McCall]

42. Thank you so much for this post.

I am going to bow out gracefully.

Thank you again for your post. I am taking it to heart. :hug:

[sam sarrha]

44. LET IT GO..... let it all go away... dont get involved any more,..

this is not something you want to get your ego involved with.. if it involves negativity.. let it go... dont make anything worse just because you can..let it go

[Maddy McCall]

49. I'm letting it go.

Thanks for chiming in. :D I've decided that I'll let my reputation speak for myself. The good grandmother knows that I am a good person with a big heart. I don't have to call to tell her that.

Thanks so much for posting. :hug:

[auntAgonist]

51. Maddy;

you've gotten some great advice from many people. They are so right on the money. Let go, move on and continue to love. There are so many people in our lives that would trample on us. It's so hard to not stand up and fight for your child's feelings. Blanket him in your love, he sounds like he's a smart kid too, he'll figure things out and be stronger for the lesson.
I appreciate all of your posts and your open heartedness (is that a word? LOL).

take care of you and your heart.

sincerely.
aA
aka kesha

[Maddy McCall]

58. Thank you, kesha.

I am going to move us forward. The advice in this thread is so precious to me. It saved me from calling granny and potentially making an ass of myself.

Thanks. :hug:

[ScreamingMeemie]

53. Oh boy, I'm sorry your son...and you...have to deal with this.

I think you said all that needed to be said. I'm sure the mother-and the son-will someday come to terms with what was their own issues in the first place. I think you have handled it well for the sake of your son. I also think the grandmother is aware of the family problem i.e. cheating...drugs etc. and will not think lowly of you. As I am sure she already thinks lowly of her own family.

Hugs to you. That's heartbreaking for your son.

Laura :hug:

[Maddy McCall]

59. What's amazing is that my kid seems to have recovered from...

this slight better than I did. He's upstairs right now listening to the Black Eyed Peas "Don't Funk With my Heart"--laughing and dancing by himself. He's a funny kid. :D

Yeah, I know the grandmother knows what kind of a person I am. Just two weeks ago, she asked if my son and I had any plans to go camping this summer, and said that, since she got her new camper trailer, she would like to camp some, so we should let her know when we are planning a camping trip.

She's a stand-up person. She doesn't deserve the family problems she's had to deal with.

[salin]

60. Actually it is because of this relationship, and the one with the

father, that I don't know that just blocking the kid out- like he doesn't exist - solves the problem. It might just be setting up a delayed problem later on.

This isn't to say that your son or you should be a dormat to the kid or the momfromhell.

But perhaps the kid is going through something that you and your son are unaware of... given what you have said about his homelife - that is not unlikely. Chances are that he is a kid who doesn't know how to deal with unpleasant and akward situations - so just went into extreme avoidance mode (much as we adults do when we go into extreme procrastination mode)... but when finally called upon it - in a way that he couldn't avoid - he did all he knew how to do - lash out and try to lay the blame elsewhere.

I am not trying to explain away bad behavior. But am trying to say that when there is more going on than meets the eye, we shouldn't presume to assign cause - as then we put ourself into the same box that we are putting the other person.

Chances are these kids are going to be thrust into proximity again at some point.

Perhaps it is better to frame your discussions with your son in terms of the other boys behavior rather than in terms of the other boy. And that one doesn't need to subject oneself to that behavior... point being at some later point in time - the kid may behave better and the two might be able to come to terms with it... but that your son, then, can set the parameters around behavior he will tolerate and not tolerate.

Just a couple of extra cents.

[Maddy McCall]

62. Salin, I appreciate this advice.

It's possible that my son will see the boy soon at church. My son goes to church with his grandparents. Sometimes, the other kid is at church.

My son told me that when he goes to church tomorrow, he's going to hang out with the kids that don't treat him like "crap." (His words.)

I'm sure that, if the kid ever wants to come back around, my kid would think twice, though, about having him as a good friend. Since all of this happened, my son has told me about the kid hitting him, and ridiculing him--and even calling him "faggot" and other mean names.

[salin]

67. Sounds like your son may have just had a very

important life lesson.

How proud you must be that instead of wanting to avoid church (I don't want to see that kid) - he is up for it - and starting to distinguish between good relations and poor ones.

Sorry that it was such a painful one.

The more you type about this kid - the less I feel sorry for him. Still do (momfromhell as my mom... idea makes me wanna cry) - but not nearly as much as I first did.

[salin]

55. I sense that I am missing something

and perhaps that is because it is missing for you as well...

First - why, in your message, do you stress that you didn't shower the kid with gifts... was this a direct or implied statement made by mom-from-hell? I am not sure how it fits into the story ... as it isn't uncommon if a kid is staying over that the hosting parent treats the kid to the same thing s/he treats his own kid to. Your emphasis suggests that this is part of the story - but I am not sure in what way.

Second - it sounds like there is no indication as to what shifted this kids attitude - one day he is at your house, the next day he is ignoring your son. These guys are late elementary or middle schoolers, I am guessing? I state this because the shift could have been something to do with his mother - OR at this age it isn't uncommon for a third party kid to play kids against each other and disrupt freindships in order to claim a new friendship for themself. Ugly - but not uncommon at that age. Or there could be other odd dynamics that are more hidden. As someone suggested above it could be Mom that turned... OR it could be that Mom was forcing the kid into the circumstance so she could be free to "play" - and that the kid was getting resentful, and perhaps embarassed - put pressure on mom to stop it (dumping him each weekend) but was too ashamed to explain the change (becuase that means addressing momfromhell's behavior) - and thus just tried to go to avoidance. But then when pushed (not intentionally) just snapped at your son. I say all of this because it sounds like there is something external to you and your son that changed - and it might be more than simplistically viewing it as the "apple didn't fall far from the tree." I would guess that the kid is a bit troubled - if for no other reason the whole dynamic between his parents.

Third - in your conversation with her - did she leap into blame mode - or did she at least attempt to recognize that there was something going on with the kids and lets try to figure it out and help them resolve it. Sounds like blaming... but did she give ANY indication that she recognized or cared about the problem between them?

Just asking these questions as it helps me get a better feel for the situation and thus a better grasp on how to advise... different answers depending on the contours of the situation.

[Maddy McCall]

61. She indeed did say that me buying him "gifts" was pressuring him.

Of course, I told her that I had never bought him anything that he had not asked for. Here are examples of the instances in which I bought the kid things he wanted:

1) at the mall, he saw a bumpersticker he wanted. It was two dollars. I bought if for him.

2) Again, at the mall, the kids didn't have any spending money, so I gave them five dollars each. They spent it on trinkets and games.

3) At a skate shop, my son wanted a tee shirt. I didn't feel that it was right to buy my son a tee and not buy the other kid a tee, too. The shirts were only $10 each, so I bought them both a tee.

But, over the past several months, the kid would ask me to purchase expensive stuff. He wanted a pair of skate shoes ($90!!!) and a Darth Vadar mask ($30) and I said no. He was becoming more bold in what he asked for, and I was becoming less open-pocketed.

Yes, I treated the kid the same as my own. I took both of them to movies, or bowling, and even once on a little trip out of town. It wasn't any huge burden on me. I didn't mind. I enjoyed giving the kid opportunities that he didn't have at home...but I didn't do it to spite his mother or to assume her position as her mother. I just did it so that the kids would have a good time.

YEs, the kids are both eleven. One thing I did notice with the boy is that he is VERY manipulative. He would ask me to rent R-rated movies, and tell me that his mother would let him watch them. He told my son that if he was going to be his friend, that my son had to quit being friends with his other friends. Indeed, my son lost friends when he befriended Drew, because the other kids despised Drew.

I had not thought that something external had caused the shift. You know, I think you are right. We had done nothing to cause it.

On your third question: YES. She immediately leaped into blame mode. It completely perplexed me, as my son had done NOTHING to "pressure" Drew. Nothing. She gave no indication that she cared about the problems between them. None.

[salin]

66. Two things leap out at me

first - the kid has picked up some bad traits from momfromhell. Of more concern is the to be my friend you must dump other friend thing, than the wanting expensive things and R rated movies (kids often test to see what they can get - and when one steps into parent role... the pushing mirrors that of a kid to a parent... not necessarily indicative of a greedy kid... could be, but not necessarily.)

Keeping in mind that a) your son did like Drew and that b) he has the influence of his Dad and Grandmother on Dad's side, I would guess that he isn't ALL bad. Let's hope that as he grows, so does their influence upon him.

The whole wanting one friend and to be the BEST friend thing is often indicative of neediness (I need to be the center of attn) - and insecurity. Heck, if my Mom willfully dumped me each weekend I would probably become pretty insecure as well. I mean, if your Mom doesn't care enough about you to want to spend time with you.... However that doesn't explain his awful behavior in the "Breakup" (end of friendship). I would suspect that momfromhell is at the center of it.

Two - her response... suggests to me that perhaps he was just a little too responsive to tell her about the great time had each weekend... and if his manipulative side didn't show up with her from time to time as in... but MaddyMoMTwo would get me this if I were with her... Given her record of really bad behavior... would bet that she is at the center of this... and that it has to do with you, not your son. As in you became too good at being MaddyMoMTwo.

As I say elsewhere, due to your relationship with Drew's Dad and Grandmother - it is very likely that these two boys will be thrown into situations where they are together in the future. Sadly, momfromhell will still be in his life so tht problem doesn't go away. Probably most important in the immediate is to comfort your son (as you have done) - but then later to help him build compassion for others while protecting oneself from their bad behavior. I don't have to subject myself to your bad behavior - but if I recognize that it might spring from your circumstances... then I can be civil and not add to your bad circumstances, without putting myself at risk. And in the chance in the future that you can treat me better - and you need a friend - I can choose to deal with it at that time on its merits.

The kid sounds like he is behaving badly, but from what you described, I can't help but feel more than a little bad for him.

At some point maybe you ought to talk to the Dad to ask him to ask himself if there might be a current negative impact upon Drew, and his behavior (and thus his future ability to have relationships - both friendships and others) due to the current situation (with her dumping him for the weekend and whoring it up...), and ask if that negative impact is less or more than the impact would be of their formally being divorced. Maybe, if you are in a heart to heart and focusing on Drew and his needs, one could ask whether staying together is more about him (dad - image/belief in marriage - even when bad) than it is about Drew.

What a sucky situation for you and your son. No way did you deserve this - at all.

Likewise - what a sucky situation for Drew, and his Dad. So very sad. If something doesnt change before it is too late - that kid is going to be a really screwed up adolescent and adult.

[Maddy McCall]

70. Salin, that is what hurts so much.

I did see how wonderful this kid could be. But I also saw the needy, selfish side, too.

I KNOW that the mother is at the middle of this. I have no doubt in that. Drew has an older brother. He, too, confided in me. He wants to run away. He's talked about suicide to me. He even went over to my brother's house and asked my brother if he could tell him how to make pipe bombs(!!!). My brother doesn't dabble in that shit, and told the older brother that he needed to leave stuff like that alone. So, there's already one screwed-up adolescent who's reaching out to adults besides his parents. I certainly hope that little brother finds some salvation before he gets to that stage.

Honestly, with some distance over the past couple of months, I've realized how toxic this family's situation is, and I don't want my son around it. He never spent the night at their house...he never even played over there.

Occasionally, when I would call to ask the mom how things were going, she would tell me "It's pure chaos here." I guess I looked at it like I was giving the boy a chance to get out of the chaos. My home is so unchaotic that it would be considered boring, I guess.

But, some people like chaos.

I won't go to the father, because I don't want to be perceived as meddling. I truly feel sorry for the father. But he is a quiet person who never stands up for himself--to his wife, or to anyone else.

I will run into the grandmother soon. I'll talk to her, then.

If Drew's mother already perceives me as intruding by being "#2 Mommy" to his kid (something I didn't encourage; the kid came up with that), I certainly don't want to aggitate by asking dad to talk about what might be causing Drew's problems.

To be honest, salin, it's such a screwy situation, it gives me headaches trying to figure it out.

[salin]

72. take more time away from it...

but at some point - talk with grandmother or dad. Don't worry about being seen as busybody... as you said she already perceives you to be that (though you aren't). Dad really needs to step back and look at his sons, how they act, are they happy, are they going to grow up to be well adjusted adults. Someone needs to nudge him to do this. He may have grown so comfortable being made to be a quiet nonentity in his own home... that he doesn't feel he is worthy of better. But somewhere the paternal side needs to be sparked... he may choose to put up with it - but do his kids deserve it?

What huge warning sides about the older one. So very heartbreaking.

But at the same time - you have your son to raise into a healthy, happy adult - so this situation shouldn't drain you of much more energy - UNLESS it were at the point in time where there was some change going on (as in resolving the current situation) - and then in crisis and transition - perhaps.

I say this because I have dumped out a lot on this thread - that could be read as if i am trying to assign you a role and that if you don't take it you should feel guilty. Please don't read this that way at all. It is just the part of me that has spent years working with fucked up adolescents speaking... so sad what some parents will willingly subject their children to due to their own selfish wishes.

[proud2BlibKansan]

69. We went through something very similar

with friends from college. To put it briefly, they were a fun couple and we were good friends for nearly 30 years. But they had one child who was, to put it mildly, a monster. Our older son was close in age to their kid and they got along okay. But monster child was mean to our younger son. Really mean. This went on for several years until finally our older kid got mad at monster child for being mean to his younger brother and things kind of snow balled from there. Monster child's mom wrote me a hostile letter and dad called and yelled at my husband. We both asked them if they were really willing to lose a 30 year friendship over a squabble between our kids. They said well maybe we need some space for awhile.

That was 10 years ago. We have not really missed them. The funny thing is that once they were no longer a part of our life, we realized how unhealthy the friendship had been. That space they had suggested was the best solution possible.

When this all came to a blow, I really wanted to pick up the phone and call our mutual friends and explain we had this falling out. But I didn't. I didn't say a word. Our mutual friends have one by one seen this family for who they really are and they have lost most of those friendships as well. So Karma played out in the end, as it always does.

Sometimes you can get too close to people. It blinds you to who they really are. Your son has hopefully learned that lesson. I know we did.

[Maddy McCall]

71. Thanks for telling me about your experience.

I'm praying for Karma, too. :hug:

[hfojvt]

73. I am not sure what the problem is

this person used to seem like a really good friend - now he is not. The association is voluntary and he seems to have terminated it. It is not fun, but I am not sure what needs to be "dealt" with. I am not comfortable, myself, with my mom or my friend's mom being involved in our friendship.
I had childhood "friends" who moved away, others that sorta drifted away (and both for some), and others that I had a falling out with, which I took to be permanent. In the end, we graduated and moved apart and had no email to tie us together.
That is sort of a male thing. My sister still has a HS friend that she writes to and another cousin that she stays in touch with, but she is rare even among my sisters.
Friendship, sadly, seems to be an ephemeral thing, but I remember fondly most of the people from my past, and wish them well.

[Maddy McCall]

74. You said that you are not comfortable with your mom or the friend's mom...

being involved in the friendship. Well, the general consensus here is that the kid's mom DID get involved in the friendship, and that is the problem.

I'm not talking about the normal ebb and flow of friendship. This situation is altogether different.

[DemBones DemBones]

75. PLUS, you want to let the good grandmother know

that there are problems with the kid. I understand where you're coming from on that. It may be best just to leave well enough alone, though. If she's as good a person as you think, she should call you to find out what's what. If not. . .well, c'est la vie.

One thing I've learned in life is that some people will suddenly stop being your friend for no discernible reason and you never really understand what happened. That's a really hard lesson for kids but If you know you didn't do anything to hurt the friendship, let it go and be glad that you learned this boy was unstable. It's not worth it to try to salvage a relationship that's wacky.

Some people say in every relationship there is one person who cares and one person who is cared about (and doesn't really care about the other.) A cynical view but it's certainly true sometimes.

BTW, I knew someone once (just slightly, a friend of a friend sort of thing) who started spending most of her weekends in New Orleans, literally prostituting herself. It wasn't that she needed the money, it was that she was mentally ill. After a year or so, she wound up in a psych hospital, complete with various forms of venereal diseases. Just FYI in regard to the mother's behavior.

BUT YOU CAN'T NECESSARILY STOP AN IMPENDING TRAIN WRECK SO DON'T STAND ON THE TRACK TRYING!

[Maddy McCall]

76. Well, over the past several months...

I've heard rumors about town that she was literally a prostitute. I didn't defend her, and I didn't participate in the gossip. But I am starting to see where that just might have been happening.

I'll run into the grandmother at the grocery store soon. I'm sure she'll ask. And I'll tell her my take on the whole thing.

Thanks for the advice, DBDB. I love the train wreck quotation and will take it to heart.

:hug:

[LibraLiz1973]

78. I feel for you

Echoing what many others have said before me- sometimes there are people that you just can't help.. no matter how badly you want to, or how hard you try. Your intentions are wonderful & it is a testament to you and your relationship with your son that you tried so hard to help that boy.

I guess in this case the boy (and it sounds like the older brother as well) is basically the product of the environment his mother has created. It's a shame that the father isn't more proactive- it's complete insanity to stay with someone with such loose morals (and who clearly has some kind of sexual worth issues- having sex with strangers in weird places is not good) who isn't a good parent. I assume the father feels like pretending at family unity is better than a "broken" home. I would argue that many MANY "broken" homes are 1,000,000% better than the destructiveness of maintaining the "family unit"- no matter what cost. The husband is also culpable in this. You weren't just being used by the mother. The kid spent every weekend with you so the mother could go be the trollop of New Orleans, while the older son has gone to your brother to ask for instruction on making pipe bombs? Where the heck is their father while all this is going on? Being ignorant is just as bad as being abusive.

In the end, only you know what is best for you and your family. But I do hope this wont change your kind nature & that you will continue to help others in the future. Not everyone is this toxic! I'm sure many people have benefited from your good intentions- in a positive way!!