Is it just me or did Dear Old Abby drop the ball on this one.

[prole_for_peace]

Dear Abby,
Is it ok for an atheist not to participate in the saying of “grace” before a meal while dining with those who do? I am a non-believer and, frankly, I am uncomfortable participating in prayer. I respect other people’s beliefs, and I don’t want to offend anyone.

Dear Non-Believer,
If you do not wish to say grace, bow your head respectfully while you companions do, and say “Amen” when they are finished. There is no rule of etiquette that demands you say the prayer.


SAY “AMEN”??? WTF??? I am not an atheist (probably more agnostic or deist) and as far as i am concerned bowing your head and saying "amen" is participating.

[Maddy McCall]

1. Better advice.

Lock eyes with the kid who's not praying, either, and make faces at him. Makes the prayer pass quicker.

[bertha katzenengel]

11. That is great. Shows the kid that it's okay NOT to drink the Kool-Aid!

:bounce: :yourock:

[Maddy McCall]

12. And it's fun for me.

Sometimes, it backfires, though, and the kid cries out in fright. :D

[bertha katzenengel]

16. LOLOL

You ain't right!

[Maddy McCall]

17. Nope, I'm not.

And life is fun because of it. :hug:

[Wapsie B]

58. That sounds hilarious!

LOL!

:rofl:

[trotsky]

2. The hell with that.

I proudly hold my head up and look around while others are reciting their magic spell. If they can't show my beliefs respect by NOT praying, or praying silently, why on earth should I respect theirs by saying a magic word?

[YellowRubberDuckie]

65. I agree. Amen means "I believe."

If you don't believe, don't say it!
Duckie

[meegbear]

3. If there is no rule of etiquette ...

that demands you say the prayer, why even bow your head?

[arcane1]

24. so they won't KNOW you don't believe

assimilate!

fuck you, Abby

[Rabrrrrrr]

45. Yeah, might as well go tell your hosts to go fuck themselves

"Sorry, as your guest, I refuse to follow any of your rules or show any respect to you. Fuck off, and give me the meat already."

[meegbear]

51. You're darn tootin'!

I will sit quietly and acknowledge the others are praying. I think that's enough.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

4. I really don't think it's that big a deal.

You're at a small, intimate gathering, and if someone else is saying grace, more than likely you are the guest. It's a very small gesture of respect to your host and if you're truly atheist, it really doesn't mean anything at all to you.

[northzax]

19. I do the same thing at weddings

I won't have a prayer at mine, but that doesn't mean I can't respect other people's religions. ESPECIALLY if I am a guest in their home. I don't say Amen, however. I also don't take communion. I do, however, take off my shoes when I enter a Mosque, and cover my head in a synagogue.

I do it for the same reason I wouldn't have a pig roast during Passover, it's just polite.

[chelsea0011]

5. I do just what Abby states.

I do not participate in grace but will add the amen with everyone else. It is their table and I will play by thier rules and have no trouble with an amen at the end. It beats getting up and leaving the room before grace.

[LaurenG]

10. Wow what a classy person you are

People are so quick to raise objection to everything. Having class doesn't mean you agree only that you are kind and gentle with others. You've got it.

[chelsea0011]

13. Thanks. I ruined many a Thanksgiving with arguements before I learned

[Bridget Burke]

18. Take the time to make a silent wish or two...

"Please, keep Uncle Fergus from the whiskey this year--he's a bit large to carry upstairs again.

"And don't let Aunt Mary Margaret begin ragging on Illegal Immigrants--as if there were many laws preventing her own sainted parents from getting off the boat!"

Then join with the group in a fervent "AMEN."

[NewJeffCT]

35. I do the same

I have some relatives that are pretty devout Catholics, and when visiting their homes, I always do the same. It's no big deal to me.

[MrScorpio]

6. Just say "Hail Satan" and they'll skip prayer the next time you're over

It'll start some interesting table talk as well

[Mad_Dem_X]

44. LMAO! I can see my husband doing this

just to be a smartass. His mother (Heavy-duty Irish Catholic) would have a stroke.

[Hugin]

7. That is totally incorrect.

Maybe standing and remaining silent... Due to respect for
the others. But, doing or saying anything is going too far.

[flvegan]

8. During grace is the best time to nab the choice morsels!!

Nobody's looking, so you can grab the drumstick before little cousin Freddie can. Little bastard always gets the drumstick.

[Zenlitened]

9. I say don't bow your head -- look around the table. It's an easy way...

... to see if there are any other atheists in the group, doing the same! :D

[trof]

14. Similar personal experience.

Hey, some of my best friends are deists.
My wife's cousin and her husband are also close friends of ours. They were visiting us. They are fairly devout Catholics.

Before we started supper one night, he asked if he could say a blessing and reached out his hand. I said "Sure" and grasped his hand and my wife's. It was actually a sweet little moment.

I wasn't offended, nor did I feel a need to get in his face about my atheism. Live and let live.
:shrug:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

37. Amen :)

[trof]

38. Are you callin' me out!?

Mornin'.
;-)

[prole_for_peace]

15. also, whenever we have a work thing...anniversary, award,

they have a prayer and get the most rabid fundie repugs to say it. usually they throw in something about the president. i am always tempted to just walk out but this is a good job and two of the three partners are religious and probably wouldn't look too kindly.

i just, very slightly, bow my head, spend the time watching everyone else and don't say amen or anything after.

[xmas74]

54. That's when you throw in a few words

about world peace, an end to war and violence, an end to hunger and starvation, and a beginning to equal rights to all.
Then you say "God, if you really are there and listening, could you help us out and show us what we really should be focused on, instead of the pettiness that we seem to be willing to live with?"
That way, you get to question the existence of God in front of everyone and yet you haven't really said anything that could offend a true Christian. If they are offended w/ your requests, then you know that they don't practice what they preach.

I am a Christian and I've pulled this one off on many occasions. Usually mouths will drop but I've had some positive feedback from the non-fundies in the crowd (including Athiests, who feel that I politely "Stuck it to the Fundies"),

[Fleshdancer]

20. I'll hold hands around the table, but I won't bow my head or say amen

I don't make an argument out of the situation, but I'm not going to sit there and pretend to do or be something I'm not to make others feel more comfortable. Even if I were a believer, I don't think I would be comfortable in those situations...prayer seems like a very personal thing and not something I would want to do in front of others. :shrug:

[prole_for_peace]

26. exactly..

spirituality is very personal with me and the whole having to share and/or show how much better you are.... :crazy:

[LynneSin]

21. Abby has been strongly on our team

including recommending planned parenthood to many people and even ripping a new one to a reader who said people could make a choice when it came to sexual preference.

But yeah, I saw that one. My advice would simply be to bow your head as a courtesy factor but hell, no one says 'amen' except the person making the prayer

[Lerkfish]

22. FWIW, side note: Abby is dead.

so her advice is harder to come by.

seriously, though, I don't think the "amen" is necessary or honors the atheist's viewpoint.
being quiet during the prayer is just courtesy, though. I would be quiet during a muslim or shinto prayer or a buddhist chant, out of respect.

[prole_for_peace]

27. this is her daughter or something but she still goes by Dear Abby

[Maddy McCall]

31. Naw, she's still alive. Her daughter took over the column, though.

Ann died.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

66. Ann Landers is dead....

Abby has alzheimer's. Abby's daughter took over the column YEARS Ago.
Duckie

[shrike]

23. I think it's a matter of courtesy

to one's hosts. I've been to Hindu ceremonies, and I've taken care to show respect, and not mock, the beliefs of my hosts which I do not share. One of these was a Hindu wedding which was very expensive and elaborate -- being only an invited guest, it was my duty, I felt, to show a little respect.

[JimmyJazz]

25. I'm going to go with pick your battles elsewhere.

It seems a bit petty to make some sort of statement if you are a guest in someone's home and they say grace before a meal. I don't know about saying "amen" but you can bow your head and think other thoughts.

Either that or what Maddy McCall said. :D

[prole_for_peace]

36. i don't have a problem with inclining my head slightly

but it is the "amen" that is a sticking part for me. i think that is praying.

but i really like maddy mccall's suggestion. i usually do look around, discretely, to see what everyone else is doing.

[northzax]

28. Why not throw in an "inshaallah" or something?

if you really want to be an asshole about it? I know, my romanisation blows. deal.

[Aristus]

29. I agree. Pick your battles elsewhere. And show some respect.

I'm a Christian, but open and curious about other faiths. One time I was invited to a Passover Seder supper with a friend. I didn't know very much about the Jewish traditions regarding the Passover, but I kept my ears open, and followed along. I had one of the most beautiful and rewarding evenings in memory. The whole observation was just breathtaking and moving. I didn't go to the home of a Jewish family (by invitation!) and then try to show them I was not going to participate because I'm Christian. How awful would THAT have been.

The whole fundy 'We're-going-to-Heaven-and-everyone-else-is-going-to-Hell' bullshit just makes me sick. Show respect for people of every faith or no faith; That's my motto.


(Well, okay, not every faith; Satanism will get no tolerance from me, but then, I've never met a Satanist.)

[UncleSepp]

41. If you've never met a Satanist, why decide not to be tolerant of them?

On what grounds?

Satanism, for the most part, is about grounding yourself in this world and being your own highest authority. Satanists don't really worship Satan, nor evil. The ones I've known have mostly been young adults for who Satanist thought is their first experience with an affirming philosophy that tells them they can actually use their own mind. I've never seen Satanism do anyone any harm, and I've seen it actually help people to become stronger, more self-reliant, and more confident. Best of all, I know of a few people who were actually brought out of the neo-Nazi movement by becoming Satanist. They realized that the authoritarian leader-structure of Naziism conflicted with the Satanist idea of being one's own highest authority, and got out. I guess you could say Satan Saves ;-)

[Aristus]

42. Well, my problem with Satanism is just that; That you are your own

higher power. I'm not ignorant when it comes to Satanism. I'm sure there are people who think Satanism is about rolling chicken bones, reciting incantations and drawing pentagrams in human blood. I know that that is not the case.

The problem is, Satanism teaches that there is no Heaven or Hell and no right or wrong. With no afterlife to prepare oneself for, the goal is to amass as much as you can here, to make here be your Heaven, and to take anything you want from someone else, and do anything you can to them if they try to resist. Since, according to Satanism, there is no morality, than it is not wrong to do so.

Satanism places you at the center of the universe, and makes materialism and self-aggrandisation the sole goals of existence. (Sounds like right-wing conservatism to me.)Whereas Christianity (the real thing, not what passes for it in America these days) is about placing the needs of others above your own. A very liberal concept.

I know it sounds intolerant, but I can't be open and accepting about something that is the antithesis of Christianity.

Good to see you again, AuntJen! :hi: How is everything?

BTW, could you please PM me or e-mail me the other photos you took during the rally. I never got to see them. ;-) Thanks.

Peace.

[skygazer]

55. I am neither a satanist nor a christian

But I do not feel that materialism or self-aggrandisation are the sole goals of existence. How arrogant to assume that only christianity will develop people of good morals and strong values.

I don't need the fear of hell or the hope of heaven dangling over my head to make me a good person - I lead a good life because I feel it's the right thing to do. Why? Well, for one thing, it makes sense for the species as a whole. For another, I feel that we owe it to our world and to our children to leave this place in better shape than it was when we got here.

I've never met an avowed satanist either and so I will certainly not make any assumptions one way or another - to do so would be equivalent to saying all muslims are terrorists.

[Aristus]

56. Okay, I didn't say that ONLY Christianity teaches morals and

selflessness. I thought I was clear about that. I think a sincere faith in a higher power, regardless of the religion, can do that. I only asserted that materialism and self-aggrandisation are the goals of Satanism.

I'm not a fundy Christian. I truly believe that all people of faith the world over are, as John Paul II put it: "our brothers in faith".

[UncleSepp]

67. Ya know, that actually makes sense philosophically

I'm sure you'd be nice enough to the person having the beliefs, too.

Here are links to the best pictures of the March demo. I stripped the http:// off the url so that the pictures won't display in the thread.

Take care!!

img.photobucket.com/albums/v246/grimnirr/Seattle-2005-03-19/VietnamSM.jpg
img.photobucket.com/albums/v246/grimnirr/Seattle-2005-03-19/SpringBlossomsSM.jpg
img.photobucket.com/albums/v246/grimnirr/Seattle-2005-03-19/RedAndBlueSM.jpg
img.photobucket.com/albums/v246/grimnirr/Seattle-2005-03-19/PleaseSign.jpg
img.photobucket.com/albums/v246/grimnirr/Seattle-2005-03-19/PissedOffVeteranSM.jpg
img.photobucket.com/albums/v246/grimnirr/Seattle-2005-03-19/MountedPoliceSM.jpg
img.photobucket.com/albums/v246/grimnirr/Seattle-2005-03-19/DUBannerSM.jpg
img.photobucket.com/albums/v246/grimnirr/Seattle-2005-03-19/BeNotAfraidSM.jpg
img.photobucket.com/albums/v246/grimnirr/Seattle-2005-03-19/AFLCIOSM.jpg

[Lydia Leftcoast]

62. I'm a liberal Christian, but when I'm at someone's home in Japan,

I will follow their rituals.

I spent New Year's Eve with a family when I was a student, and I went to the Shinto shrine with them at midnight and offered a prayer. I figured it's all the same God.

Years later, I was invited to a "katami-waké," which is held the 49th day after a person's death and which involves giving away the possessions of the deceased. The family had a Buddhist altar with a picture of the deceased, and like everyone else (fellow students from my student days--the deceased had been foreign students' advisor at the school I attended), I knelt before the Buddhist altar, lit a stick of incense, put my hands together, and bowed my head. That's just what you do when you visit a Japanese home where there's been a death recently. Even people who aren't religious do it.

Some evangelical and most fundamentalist Christians would say that I had sinned by following these Japnaese customs, but the Japanese do not understand the concept of religious exclusivity (most of them practice both Buddhism and Shinto), so refusing to follow the expected custom would have been considered rude.

[tyedyeto]

30. Why is it that these 'moments of silence' are like prayer to some people?

I consider them to be what is said...a moment for reflection or recollection about a person or event. NOT a prayer. I do not bow my head at these moments, but honor the memory.


edit for typos

[loudestchick]

32. At thanksgiving last year, I shocked the assembled by asking that

we each state something for which we are thankful...They have no problem scraping and groveling in prayer but were hard pressed to be thankful for anything. Sheeesh!

[leftofthedial]

33. Dear Non-Believer,

Stick your fingers in your ears and loudly chant, "La La La La. I'm not listening!"

This is the equivalent of the religiously insensitive filling the air with the sound of their superstitios rantings.

Equal rights for atheists--NOW!

[Mad_Dem_X]

46. What's wrong with just sitting there quietly?

It only takes a few seconds. You don't have to bow your head or say amen, but at least show some respect for your host.

[leftofthedial]

49. That's time the Non-Believer will never get back

add that to every other imposition everywhere and religious wackos waste way too much of our species' collective time and energy on nonsense.

The correct and considerate thing to do is for the religious people to ask permission before they start spewing.

[Modem Butterfly]

34. Pretending to be something you're not is never polite

It is never polite to pretend to be that which you are not (namely, mimicking Xians by adding "amen" at the end of a prayer which you did not pray). I wonder if Dear Abby would advise a native English speaker to use an Australian accent when traveling to Sydney?

I'm an atheist, and I remain respectfully silent when others pray, but I don't bow my head, fold my hands, and say amen. So far, the only one who's had a problem with this is my brother, who's a fundamentalist freak and has a problem with women wearing pants and having the right to vote.

[Lars39]

39. Dear Abby must not have ever been in the midst of a 12-party group

of Pharisees who are in the center of a restaurant.
The icing on their cake is to show the godless heathens how to pray and pray loudly. :blush: :(

[Strawman]

40. Bust into an a capella rendition of "Dear God"

Or maybe have my acoustic guitar ready under the table for musical accompaniment.

More likely, I'll just let the time pass respectfully and withhold the "Amen."

[Rabrrrrrr]

43. Bowing your head is a sign of respect for your host - Abby is right

to do otherwise is insanely rude.

I don't think you'd have to say the amen, though it could win you some karma with your hosts that you have at least supported their prayer, even if you think it silly.

So, no, Abby was not off base.

[GirlinContempt]

47. Well, if someone

comes over to my house for dinner and wants to say grace, I say, giv'r. So why shouldn't I keep my head up and not say 'amen' while at theirs?
I respect their right to say it, they can respect my right not to participate.
I don't think it's disrespectful. If they had some other weird custom, such as spitting over their shoulder every time they... drop their forks at the table, I wouldn't spit over my shoulder. Is THAT disrespectful?
I think not.

[Dukkha]

48. How about ripping a big loud fart for your prayer

is that proper etiquette?

[youthere]

50. Well, here's my 2 cents:

I was taught that "AMEN" literally means "so be it". It's said at the end of prayer to "seal the deal" with God (so to speak) so with that in mind I think it would be terribly innapropriate not only for a non-believer to say it at the end of prayer out of politeness, but also for any Christian host to expect a non-believing guest to take part of it.
As a Christian I can tell you I would never expect a non believing friend to take part in our meal blessings, but I would also ask them beforehand how they would like me to handle it in light of their personal beliefs. I don't think it would kill any Christian family to go one meal without saying a blessing if it would truly hurt a valued friend and guest. I value my friends more than my rituals. That's just me though. I think "Abby" was off on this one.

[Iterate]

52. I'll be faced with that same situation Sunday

with some Americans down the street. Army Baptists, hand-holding grace, invited just because I have the same nationality. Come to think of it, I have no idea why I'm invited. They assume so much, know so little. If we lived next door in the states we wouldn't have anything to do with each other. I know I'm attending because I want to find out what's going on in Iraq and offer help to some potential deserters who might be there.

The last time we were invited this grace thing nearly escalated into a shit-storm. And frankly, I'm getting pretty tired of being polite. Screw it. I don't invite a cardinal to my house and expect him to join in my secret ritual animal sacrifice.

And that brings up another point. It isn't the same thing as being in their house of worship or sacred event. None of my Arab, Indian, Thai, African, German, French, Korean, or British friends would ever think of pulling this kind of shit on a guest. Sure, you respect the customs of the house, wear house shoes, smoke or not, share their culture, eat their food with respect, but none of them expect (or really, assume) that you will participate in their religious beliefs.

Maybe I'll be a horse's ass for a change.

[xmas74]

53. I can understand bowing your head.

That moment can be used as a moment of clarity or thoughtfulness instead of prayer. An athiest could think about their grocery list if they wanted to. But saying Amen should not have to be apart of it.

[RetroLounge]

57. I don't bother to eat meals with people who pray over food.

seems to work for me.

RL

[PassingFair]

59. Secular household here...

We remain quiet whilst grace is said if we are guests in believers homes.
When my kids have friends over that ask about "grace", I tell them that we don't pray over our food, but that they are perfectly welcome to pray however they want before they eat.
Some haven't come back, but the ones with open-minded parents always seem to become regulars at our house.
I also skip the under god part in the pledge and finish a beat earlier than everyone else, and I don't care who notices.

[elshiva]

60. We are believers at my household, BUT when we know

someone is NOT a believer we DO NOT say grace at all. Usually we say grace because we are such a tightly knit religious family, but I think that the host SHOULD NOT SAY GRACE IF S/HE in a secular party...

[FreedomFry]

61. This atheist agrees with Abby.

"Amen" simply means "so be it." As long as the sentiment is positive, it's no skin off my nose to agree with the sentiment. In this case, keeping a meal pleasant is worth the compromise.

[Bzzzz]

63. Definatley!!!

I also said 'WTF' when I read "say amen". I'm an atheist and my family and in-laws are very religious. I DO NOT participate in their prayers when at family functions. Their religious beliefs do not override my own. Ol' Annie blew it big time on this one!

[YellowRubberDuckie]

64. Abby has been dropping the ball on a lot lately...

A few weeks ago, a guy wrote her telling her that he was being ignored by his entire family. She blamed him. He was telling her how they don't speak to him when they're all together for holidays or whatever. He tries, but people just end up walking away. She told him he was depressed and needed to get therapy. Pissed me off. The poor guy is being treated like shit by his family, oh but he's depressed, so it's fault.
Duckie