Return of the Jedi is still the worst Star Wars film

[DerekG]

Fans, your nostalgia for an era of matte paintings is clouding your mind--there is no such thing as the Holy Trilogy, there is only Episode IV, a sublime fairy tale, Episode V, a masterpiece of cinema, and Episode VI, an insipid follow-up in the tradition of The Godfather: Part III and Day of the Dead.

The two prequel films may showcase stolid performances and distracting CGI, but at least they have patches of innovation and creativity...and the Byzantine plotting just may pay off in Ep. III.

I won't make excuses for Return of the Jedi, though: Ford and Fisher are obviously bored (and the writers made no attempt to continue their respective arcs); the direction is graceless; the first thirty minutes play like something out of the Muppet Show while the last hour unfolds like the Care Bear Adventure on Endor (at least Jar Jar Binks didn't break the bloody narrative for 15 minutes); we hear the words "apprentice" and "destiny" at least a dozen times each (a portent to the "m'lady's" of Clones, perhaps)...

Face it, ROTJ consists of 10 superlative minutes (speeder bike chase; Luke striking his father; the death of Palpatine) and 120 minutes of mediocrity.

"Search your feelings, you know it to be true."

[Zuni]

1. I agree

and I LIKE Episode 1.

Jedi is my least favorite Star wars film.

[Spinzonner]

2. You dissing the Lizard of Oz ?

[liberalpragmatist]

3. I think it's satisfying - but it could've been better

First of all, Darth Vader's imperial ambitions are totally dropped - he's just a docile sheep to the emperor.

And having read interviews with Gary Kurtz, much of Lucas' original script was better. In fact, much of Empire was structured to set up a movie that was never made.

In the original script, Leia was not Luke's sister (that was someone else, who might have played a big role in Jedi but would probably have emerged only the later-dropped third trilogy (VII-IX)), Han was to die valiantly in battle, Luke was to redeem Vader after a dark, complex struggle, and at the end Leia was to depart to lead the remnants of her people as Queen. Oh, and no Ewoks - there was supposed to be a planet of wookies.

Now, in Lucas' defense, he probably saw that without Vader, a third trilogy would have lacked much focus and been inessential, so he wanted to do something that would tie the series up.

However, he could have kept many of those original plot elements, while still having the Empire truly fall.

That all being said, I've always enjoyed Jedi and I think it's a satisfactory conclusion to the series. But you're right - it could have been better.

[DerekG]

7. Exactly, there is something hollow about Vader's progression

I still believe Vader was sincere when he implored Luke in "Empire" to unite against the Emperor and rule the galaxy with him "as father and son." This is interesting stuff: Vader realizes that Palpatine is in the wrong, and yearns to "end this destructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy." (Of course, like the men in Tolkien's world, he still believes he can bring this about through evil means.) But in ROTJ, as you said, he is rendered a slave to Palpatine, thus simplifying what could have been a fascinating power struggle between the three characters.

His turn just doesn't resonate; hopefully, the upcoming film will salvage this.

[EarlG]

8. See, I dunno

Bit of background: Empire was the first Star Wars movie I saw, but I was way too young to understand what was going on. I liked the AT-AT battle, but that was about it. For that reason I think, I've never had the inclination to give that movie the credit it really deserves. I saw Star Wars next, on video when I was about 8 years old; LOVED it - everyone in my school was Star-Wars-crazy by then. ROTJ came out when I was about 9 years old, and it probably had the biggest impression on me because I was finally old enough to understand what was going on.

So... before I saw ROTJ, I thought that Darth Vader was actually the biggest badass in the galaxy. In Empire, you see him talking briefly to the Emperor, but as I say I was too young to get that. The Emperor doesn't show up in the original Star Wars. So I thought Vader was numero uno head honcho bad guy.

Then, in ROTJ, the Emperor shows up and you suddenly realize that Vader isn't such a badass after all - he's actually just the Emperor's lapdog. Looking back, you even see this in the original Star Wars - in the scenes on the Death Star, Peter Cushing pretty much bosses him around all over the place. IIRC, he's the one that gives Vader the order to execute Leia, not the other way round.

In Empire, Vader makes his only play to take control of his own situation by asking Luke to join him to defeat the Emperor. But even in that case he needs Luke's help to do it - he can't do it by himself.

Sure, Vader is totally evil and all that, but he's basically just a very powerful bully who never has any control over the circumstances surrounding him. In that respect, while Episodes I and II pretty much sucked ass, they've set up Vader's character pretty well.

Okay, I'm totally geeking out now :)

[Deja Q]

4. I disagree.

Ewoks hurt it, but the Vader/Luke/Emperor scenes save it.

Eps 1 and 2 have are NOTHING except excessive effects (CGI crap) and bad acting by people getting paid too much because, you guessed it, it's Star Wars and they could sell used toilet paper with the logo on it and people would buy MILLIONS of it.

[Mojambo]

5. I watched the Phantom Menace today and... You're just wrong.

Was Jedi good, not really. Was there some good in it? Absolutely.

80% of Menace is simply unwatchable.

[RoyGBiv]

13. Amen ...

I had forgotten how incredibly bad it was. I guess I had blocked it because my memory was that it was just the Jar Jar character that ruined it. Not so. Almost the entire thing sucked a hot wind.

And while I'm certainly no prude, I found the attempts to lay the foundations for the romance that produces Luke and Leia simply disturbing, not to mention thoroughly unrealistic.

[Hippo_Tron]

6. ROTJ beats episodes I and II by a mile

Although Episode I was almost worth watching all of those scenes with shitty kid Anakin just to see the Darth Maul lightsaber fight. ROTJ was basically a not as good sequel to Empire Strikes Back.

[Dukkha]

9. 12 reasons why Return of the Jedi is GREAT

1. Leia's Slave outfit
2. Good guys wear black: Luke's cool Jedi outfit
3. Kick ass bounty hunter costume: Boushh
4. Rancor's death sound: Wheeerump!
5. The Emperor's theme
6. Lando as a General takes out the Dearth Star
7. Admiral Piett: The only one who doesn't fear Vader
8. C-3P0 shows off his interpreting skills
9. Wedge Antillies is the Red leader
10. Emperor's enunciation: best in the Saga
11. Anakin is revealed
12. Best space battle ever

[last_texas_dem]

10. I disagree

I actually find Return of the Jedi to be the best "Star Wars" movie, simply because I think it's the most entertaining. I'm a very casual "Star Wars" fan, though; I've seen each one just once and Episode One was actually the first one I ever saw! But still, I don't think Jedi is that bad; it keeps your attention throughout and wraps up the story well.

[Placebo]

11. I couldn't disagree more.

And there are a million reasons why, but here are just two:

Jar Jar & AOTC

and in the spirit of full disclosure, my list of favourite SW films is as follows:

• Return of the Jedi
• Empire Strikes Back
• A New Hope
• The Phantom Menace
• Attack of the Clones

[Left Is Write]

14. That's exactly how I ranked them too, in the other thread.

[solinvictus]

12. I take "Return of the Jedi" as two movies...

The main story, in my view, is Luke's confronation with actually BEING a Jedi. Luke bravely rescues his friends from Jabba the Hutt and then realizes, through Yoda, that he's got to confront Vader. The confrontation between he and Vader, orchestrated by the Emperor, is the best scene. The rest of it is fluffy filler crap, nothing but the cinema equivalent of Three Musketeer's nougat. Calrissian as a general? Just an excuse to involve him in the final battle. Ewoks? Come on, the Imperials would've used a poison or biological agent to exterminate them. The fact that battle scenes showed Ewok slingshots knocking down armored stormtroopers with small rocks is silly.
I guess the Emperor was my favorite character in the movie and I also enjoyed seing the Mon Calamari fleet attack the Death Star.

[Beware the Beast Man]

15. Even though I'm a huge mark for all the Star Wars films,

I have to disagree. Phantom Menace is the worst by a wide margin. I tried watching it the other day, and apart from the lightsabel battle and the podrace, it's damn near unwatchable. Jar Jar could have been a great character, but Lucas went overboard with his antics. With the casting of Anakin, I know Lucas was trying to show how even the most innocent-appearing can turn to evil, but that kid was way too precocious and cutesy.

[Left Is Write]

16. The line that irritated me the most:

"NO ONE can kill a Jedi!"

[Beware the Beast Man]

17. Well, as we shall see, that line is actually quite important.

No spoiler, I promise. :D

[Left Is Write]

19. I know.

:D

It was the lack of subtlety of the line that irked me.

[Arkana]

23. The parts where he goes "Yippee!" are the worst for me

I just cringe, wondering who the hell wrote this shit. Also bad is the part where he informs Qui-Gon that "sandstorms are very, very dangerous." Then it's just made worse with the pimp-like "Come on--I'll take ya to my place."

[Mojambo]

26. Ugh. The end when he actually learns to fly during the battle

It's brutal.

"Let's try doing a roll? Wheeee!"

Just dreadful, sphincter-squeezing stuff!

[RoyGBiv]

18. I disagree ...

But in doing so, I'm damning with faint praise. It only survives being the worst because of episodes I & II.

Parts of ROTJ were just pretty good, I think. Other parts were atrocious, so it balances out in my mind to mediocre.

I don't know how much of a measure of things this is, but this was the first movie at which I experienced an audience actually standing up and cheering, which occurred when Vader "turned" to save Luke. I was so caught up in the moment, I did it too.

My measure of quality is this, and it's certainly not objective or professionally critical. It's personal. I'm among those who have seen every Star Wars episode in the theater and remember the experience vividly. I was actually one of those idiots who saw the things dozens of times. That was the cool thing to do back then, and it was possible because you didn't have to take out a loan to go to the movies. Empire came out the first summer my mom let me ride my bike downtown by myself, and I could buy an afternoon ticket, a coke, and some popcorn for $1.75. When the money supply ran tight, I just waived off the coke and popcorn. So, I saw it almost every day that summer. I saw Star Wars a bit less because I had to rely on people going with me. With Jedi, I didn't bother.

[Feron]

20. The worst original trilogy SW film is....

a masterpiece as compared to the newer ones. The original ones do have their faults ,but at least the story took precedence over the special effects.

[Arkana]

21. OK, here's how I see it:

Episode I: Contemptible glurge that had no place in the theater
Episode II: Contemptible glurge with slightly more special effects that had no place in the theater
Episode IV: Good, but the dialogue makes me cringe sometimes, especially when Luke speaks
Episode V: I would like this one--good story and good character development, except that it's so depressing I don't ever watch it
Episode VI: Best of the series. Absolutely phenomenal storyboarding, especially the attack on Jabba's barge and the Battle of Endor.

[LSdemocrat]

22. I'd rank ROTJ fourth, but I like all the movies

Here's my order

1. Empire Strikes Back
2. A New Hope (Star Wars)
3. Attack of the Clones
4. Return of the Jedi
5. The Phantom Menace

The biggest problem with Return of the Jedi is except for the Luke/Emperor/Vader confrontation, the movie is completely devoid of suspense. Most of the early part of the movie plays out like a lesser James Bond movie where corny jokes trump seriousness and a sense of larger purpose. Overall, ROTJ is still a very good movie, but it just doesn't compare with most of the other movies in terms of story.

[gauguin57]

24. Those effing Ewoks annoyed the hell out of me.

The whole sprawling three-picture epic ended with a bunch of fake teddy bears dancing around like doofuses and everyone laughing along. GOD -- I thought I was gonna PUKE!

[carpetbagger]

25. Why ROTJ beats Menace.

The irritations in ROTJ were peripheral to the plot. Jabba's muppets and the Ewoks detracted to be sure, turning what could have otherwise been scenes on par with the rescue of Leia from the Death Star and the Battle of Hoth into, well, lesser moments.

However, the core plot of the movie still makes for a diluted, but certainly not a mediocre, movie. Looking at a script I saw online, I'd say almost 2/3 of the scenes were either devoted to the Jedi plot or were (Ewok-free) scenes of the battles leading to the destruction of the second death star.

Phantom Menace, on the other hand, has Jar Jar, annoying children and muppets of Tatooine, and only, only has the beginnings of the plot development of the prequel.

I would separate AOTC from Menace. AOTc had better battle scenes, but more importantly, the plot really developed in the final hour of the film, and I think it will pay off in III.

As to Christensen's lack of acting skills, I almost think Lucas uses that as a type of artistic device. When I look back at Mark Hamill in IV, even in parts of V, I see an extra from Fast Times at Ridgemont High. "Dude, I gotta get outta this like planet, it bums me out". If you watch the original trilogy straight through, Hamill's development of acting skills is appearent. By ROTJ, he actually does a good acting job, or Lucas allows him to act well. The only crappy thing in III will probably be Christensen's stock acting. Hopefully it's mitigated by the rest of the thing.

[LTR]

27. Am I the only one who likes I and II?

C'mon, people! Just because the critics bitched about TPM and AOTC doesn't mean you all have to. Sure, Jar Jar was a lame character that was used way too much in Ep. 1. And there were too many other CGI characters hamming it up as well (though I liked Sebulba, Anakin's pod race opponent). Otherwise, TPM was pretty good. It helped that the movie centered around characters played by two very good actors (Liam Neeson and Ewan McGregor), albeit two very good actors forced to read George Lucas' notoriously shitty dialogue. Young Anakin was overdone, but was still effective. He made the movie a bit too childish. But, The light saber duels with Darth Maul, the pod race and some of the scenery (Naboo is a very pretty planet) made the movie pretty decent. Time will be kind to this movie.

AOTC was a better film. Hayden Christenson seems to be a fairly decent actor yet again trapped reading bad Lucas dialogue (maybe he should have had David Mamet or Quentin Tarantino write this stuff). I liked the settings of the various planets, especially Coruscant. There are flaws, though. Anakin and Obi-Wan don't really get enough time to build 'buddy chemistry', which would make their eventual battle with each other even more climactic. And there's way too much senate nonsense. At times I felt like I was watching a sci-fi version of CSPAN. And Christopher Lee's role (Count Dooku) should have been expanded. This is a very good Star Wars bad guy, and a larger presence by him could have really made this movie even better. AOTC, with a little fine tuning, could rival any of the original trilogy. Just a few weak elements bog it down.

Going back to the original trilogy, ROTJ was good, but had too many Ewoks. TESB was great, but has it's own flaws, IMO. Seemed to function too much as a bridge from one movie to the other. It really isn't a self-contained story in it's own right. But there is a lot of good in this movie. It's crime is that it seems mostly like a path from here to there.

The best one of all? Nothing beats the original. But perhaps it's a sentimental choice.

[Radical Activist]

28. Its still a good movie.

I like it better tha ep. 1 & 2. My only big complaint with it is the ewoks.