The DU Lounge: Too often, it's not a very friendly place.

[Skinner]

Let me tell you about my experience in Junior High School.

I went to public school for elementary school and high school, but for junior high, I went to a fancy-pants private school, where most of my classmates were the spoiled children of the local elite. They all knew each other because they all went to the same country clubs and debutante balls or infant finishing schools or whatever the fuck they did.

I wasn't poor or underprivileged in any way, but I could tell in my gut that that I was part of a different social class. They wore those wide-wale preppy corduroy pants, and all I had were those thin-wale corduroys that were cut like a pair of blue jeans. They all wore top-siders, and I had those clunky suede things from "Bass" or some other off-brand. Their polo shirts -- and all their other clothes -- actually had a little polo player on the pocket. My shirts were a little too tight, usually with green stripes or something, and if they had anything on the pocket it was a penguin.

What was worse is that I didn't play sports. I was clumsy and awkward. I was much better at things like singing and drawing, which were really faggy things for junior high school boys to do. While the other kids were having coed parties where they played "Synchonicity" over and over again and dimmed the lights and groped each other, my little group of friends (all boys) were somewhere else playing computer games.

There were cool people, and there were geeks. The cool kids would all sit at the same tables at lunch, where their only interaction with the rest of us was to hurl an insult or stick out a leg to trip one of us as we walked by with a tray full of food.

It was cruel and it was juvenile and it was complete fucking bullshit.

And right now the DU Lounge doesn't look very different to me.

Congratulations, beautiful people. You're at the top of the Lounge pecking order. When any of the great unwashed tries to sit at your lunch table, you'd never just come right out and tell them how much contempt you have for them (and besides, the teacher wouldn't allow that). You'd rather be really clever about it -- make a snide comment or pass around a clever picture. Quietly, you high-five each other underneath the lunch table. "LOL. Good one. Snicker."

I think it's fucking disgusting, and I think you should all be ashamed.

"But, but... It's their own fault," you say. "If they weren't so annoying, then I wouldn't have to constantly remind them that they are not part of the cool crowd."

Or else, if a teacher asks you about it, you just deny it. "I don't really like him, but we don't really have any problems." (Sound familiar, anyone?)

By the time I left Junior High School, I figured out how to climb to the top of the social order, and I am deeply ashamed about it to this day. Let me tell you what I did, because I wanted so badly to be part of the in crowd. I picked on the kid who stuttered.

That's right. I picked on the kid who stuttered.

To be more precise, I mimicked his stutter. I was able to copy his stutter exactly. And I would do it right to his face. I actually made him cry one time. The cool kids thought it was a fucking laugh-riot.

Deep inside, I was deeply, deeply ashamed. And to this day, I would give my left nut to take it all back.

That is all.

[nini]

1. THANK YOU

MY SENTIMENTS EXACTLY.

You'd think as 'adults' this crap would cease. Guess not. It's sad really and has taken the fun out of DU for me.

thanks for addressing this issue.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

2. Keep the left nut.

You have just done the next best thing. You may never be able to apologize to the kid, but you done your karma good. :thumbsup:

[Book Lover]

3. Thank you

We're humans, and humans will form cliques. Thanks for pointing out that at times it gets more than cliquish around here. And thank you for sharing your story; it is brave for you to admit to.

[Runcible Spoon]

13. and the victimized 'poor me' cliques are just as bad as the

mean snarky cliques. Just sayin'. :shrug:

[Book Lover]

27. While I myself would not say

that the "victim cliques" are as bad as the "bashing cliques," I agree with you that the Lounge should be as free as possible of both kinds of threads. I'm in here for the drinks, the friendly banter, the occasional "oddly enough" story, and the coloring contests. Isn't that enough common ground?!

[Runcible Spoon]

33. and by far and away that's what the Lounge is.

but I've been here a long time and I've learned to let a certain amount of shit roll off my shoulders. I mean, the vast majority of these people are strangers to me and I could care less what they think of me. I only really care about the handful of people who I've gotten to know beyond the context of DU. I appreciate the sense of community here, don't get me wrong, but a lot of people have trouble seeing the reality that this is a largely anonymous forum where people construct certain identities. Some people are guarded and some people are extremely open. I just don't get why people expect to get treated with kid gloves. In my opinion, I wouldn't say anything here and expect a different reaction than yelling it out on a crowded subway in a liberal-leaning city. In the end I would rather people grow thicker skins than have this place go mod-crazy.

[Book Lover]

67. I understand what you mean

My Lounge attendance has been spotty the past few days, but I do know what this is all about, and in this context at the end of the day, I think I have to support your assertion that "I would rather people grow thicker skins than have this place go mod-crazy."

[rwork]

4. Good one Skinner.

It takes a lot of courage, but it has to be said.

[GreenPartyVoter]

5. My self-esteem was shredded from an entire school career

of being a scapegoat. I am still scarred.

So thank you Skinner. You didn't pick on me personally, but to know that someone who once bullied someone else regrets it now.. well, it soothes my soul because I can think that maybe the kids who were so nasty and physically abusive to me might have their own late night remorse.

And I agree.. it's been pretty crazy in here lately with the cliques. :(

[comsymp]

6. DAY-UM, Skinner~

I'm stunned that you made this post. Not that I disagree with it - in fact, it's 100% spot on. Just... just... wow.

Good job.

[ComerPerro]

26. My thoughts exactly. "Day-um"

[Richardo]

7. Thank you, Skinner

My sentiments exactly.

[Bok_Tukalo]

8. I post almost exclusively in the Lounge

And I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

[Runcible Spoon]

9. don't feel too bad.

I don't. I always handed the kid whose head I had just dunked into the toilet a nice clean towel. :evilgrin:
(JUST KIDDING)

[physioex]

10. What makes me sad about school....

Is the fact that not only were there social groups like you are talking about. Also the different races never really got along well. I would never see the black, asian, hispanic, and whites kids talking in some sort of group. I tried my best to spend some time in each group even if I got the impression that I wasn't fully accepted......

And it's a shame because I see the same things happening as an adult that I saw in childhood....

[TK421]

11. I just logged on a few minutes ago...what did I miss here?

I noticed there were a lot of threads with corny jokes, most of which involved a bear walking into a bar. I'm pretty new here, so I apologize for not being in step with current events.

[Rabrrrrrr]

74. TK421, why aren't you at your post?

:-)

Welcome to DU!

:hi:

I'd like to know what I missed as well. Seems I wasn't paying much attention...

[TK421]

81. I'm sorry, I think I have a bad transmitter...

Thanks for the welcome! By the way, I really AM at my post...at work!;-)

[VelmaD]

12. People are people

And you're being a little bit unfair. I have seen plenty of people come to the Lounge for support and get it.

If there are people doing the happy dance in the Lounge today because certain posters that many consider to have been obnoxious have voluntarily left...well, you know how they behaved in here as well as I do and I find it hard to be too upset.

People are people and you can't expect them to be anything else. Would I like us all to be nice all the time? Sure. Am I nice most of the time? *snort* Nope. We all fall down.

on edit: I'm trying to find a nice way of telling you that we really didn't need you adding to a culture of Lounge-bashing. Lord knows people are more likely to get support in here than in GD.

[Pithlet]

22. I disagree

I think what was done was shameful. No matter what the objects of scorn did, there was no excuse. I didn't always agree with everything they said, and they could be downright antagonistic. I know there was reason for many to have a legitimate beef with them. But it doesn't excuse it.

We aren't all nice all of the time. That is true. We get angry, and say things out of spite. But what happened in the lounge was different. This went outside all of those threads. Hurtful posts were made just to hurt. Not to advance any point that was discussed. There is no excuse for that. Those posts made me feel just like Skinner described. It was junior high bullshit. I feel guilty enough that I kept my mouth shut most of the time and said nothing while it was happening. I was a chicken because I was afraid I'd get turned on and snarked at as well. There was no excuse for that, either. I should have said something then.

[VelmaD]

32. I suppose I missed some of the threads last night...

but all in all I was hard pressed to ever feel really sorry for the pair in question. I had been on the recieving end of their tirades in the past. When it got to the point that certain topics could no longer be allowed in the Lounge because a certain poster would harass everyone who disagreed with him...that was a bit too much for me. I didn't care about their weight. I cared about the fact that they were the worst I've ever seen for crying about how they were picked on while they had NO ability to reflect on their own behavior.

That said, we do act like a pack of poop flinging howler monkeys in here sometimes.

[Lavender Brown]

45. Some of the stuff that went on today

hurt more people than just the intended targets. Some people don't get that other people's bad behavior doesn't always excuse their own.

[Texasgal]

47. I agree with you VelmaD

I think that the issue of their physical appearance has been played out one to many times.

I agree that the one thread was pretty bad, and I was not a part of it. But, honestly this is not the first time that these accusations have been made! When the folks in question disagree with something said so passionately this physical appearance card seems to always come up!

I think that their are a few folks that need a talking too, but to broad stroke the lounge with this type of thing is really unfair! Considering past behaviour.

[VelmaD]

73. Yes...that was my issue exactly...

On certain issue you weren't ever allowed to disagree with them based on your ideas or opinions or any other reason other than their appearance. They seemed to care about it WAY more than anyone else in the Lounge did. They made it an issue.

[DS1]

48. I second that

And the important part that's left out of the original argument is that nobody's forcing anyone to be here. And unlike school there is an ignore function.

Yes, in the orginal original "I'm gonna think about staying blah blah blah" a comment was made about places changing. I think that person A *God, I hate all this name ducking shit* invited person B in, and expected person B to get the same kind of respect person A had instead of actually earning it, and then person B started shitting all over the place and then bitching about it almost daily on a completely different messageboard altogether, I think it's probably best if persons A and B spent more time with their families, so to speak.

Now I'm going to commit seppuku for that comma abuse.

[Bouncy Ball]

52. Commit seppuku? What is that? Sounds like fun!

;-)

[Runcible Spoon]

53. I hope it involved sake whatever it is.

:toast:

[DS1]

55. Correct. My sword broke

the other day, so I'm going to have to drown myself in sake

mmmm, sake

[Bouncy Ball]

59. YAY for SEPPUKU!!!!

:drink:

[Runcible Spoon]

66. here, you can borrow my bushido blade..

[Texasgal]

58. Bite me!,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

:P

[Pithlet]

50. Check your PM

:hi:

[salin]

Looks like once again - I have missed something big

and it sounds ugly.

[crispini]

56. I've rarely participated in many of these threads,

but I have read them, and I have to say that I agree with what Velma D has to say here.

It is TOTALLY possible to convey and to pick up a person's tone on the internet.

[Richardo]

85. OK: The 'poop-flinging howler monkey' crack is hilarious.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA :rofl:

:hi: VelmaD!

[VelmaD]

87. I can't take credit...

I stole it from Will Pitt. :)

[TheProphetess]

40. Hear, hear

Well said, my friend.

[southlandshari]

113. Well said, Pithlet.

There is no doubt that many may have found certain DUers who have recently departed to be offensive.

However, by the same measure, many may have found the "happy dancing" to be equally offensive. If not more so.

Thanks for your post!


:hug:

[Kellanved]

42. I agree

I don't think that the behavior described is exclusive to the lounge. The simple fact is: it is playful here and thus easier to spot. It is a normal side-effect of politics: people form alliances and broker deals. What else should be expected from a political discussion page? :shrug:


And yeah, no criticism, but the escalating regulation in the Lounge hasn't helped either, IMHO. But then again: the run-up to many of those rule changes reeked suspiciously of "under the table" deals.

[nini]

71. BS.. It's about much much more

its the incessant juvenile posts to bait others. It's the 'can't leave well enough alone' crap. It's about posters making references/comments that are intentionally insulting to, or referring to someone they have a history of not seeing eye to eye with.


Disagreements will occur, it's human nature. But the immature taunting, comments and overall bratty behavior are uncalled for and even if someone feels justified in saying something why the hell can't they control themselves and be mature enough and rise above it?


No, it's not everyone here. Most people here are wonderful, caring people whom I admire very much. It's a very small few that tend to be the instigators of flamebait threads. Only they are the ones who are in question. You'd think for skinner to take the time to make a point about this and the overall response it has indeed become a problem.

[VelmaD]

86. Do you ever go in GD:Politics?

Makes this place look like the height of maturity and decorum.

Seriously though, I do understand where you're coming from. People shouldn't be intentionally insulting and "they started it" isn't really a good excuse.

[Texasgal]

94. I agree that taunting or

Immaturity should not be tolerated. But really, sometimes you have to look at ones own behavior before you can start knockin' on mine.

It's a two way street.

And for the record... I did not and will not ever participate in a thread that is mean spirited to others. :)

[Rowdyboy]

14. From one junior high nerd to another....Thank you

Just thank you.

[Lex]

15. Thanks Skinner for putting into words what I was feeling.

Especially the part about

"But, but... It's their own fault," you say. "If they weren't so annoying, then I wouldn't have to constantly remind them that they are not part of the cool crowd."

True that.

[Misunderestimator]

16. I was the outcast from elementary school until my last year of college.

I know where you're coming from. I don't understand exactly what this is about, but I can guess. There are a FEW people who carry their arguments too far and use personal insults to further their "point" in the lounge. I don't think it's fair to condemn the entire lounge for this behavior. I really don't.

[Longgrain]

17. Thanks for posting this Skinner

I was a borderline dyslexic/ stutter as a child myself. I had a very difficult time making friends and even more so, getting a date. I know the courage it sometimes takes to even talk to someone, and even more so how to look them in the eye and say you like them.

I also know how painful it is to be teased and rejected by "The Cool Kids".

I spent most of my adolescence in a school for teens with behavioral problems, and therapy sessions after school, so I know from experience how hard it is for some people to cope.

I feel it's made me a better adult, but sometimes I wish things could have been different.

[chickenscratching]

23. it had to have made you a better adult

you are one of the most caring, thoughtful du'ers i see post here

[Longgrain]

29. I just hate seeing people get hurt...

My only problem is, I can't get hurt myself, so I sometimes lash out.

Other than that, I'm mainly who I am.

[johnnie]

18. Being a shrimp my whole life

And hearing shit from people to this day (40 years later), I can not stand seeing people being picked on. Hell, I even couldn't watch the American Idol tryouts because I didn't want to see people get dogged for what they thought they were good at (I ended up watching this year, and it wasn't as bad as I thought).
Personally, I had no problem with hanging with whoever I wanted to hang with, but I took in anyone who got shit from the "cool cats". It's very hard to watch and listen to people making fun of someone because of the way they look, speak or other "abnormal" traits about a person.
It's sad..really.
I don't know why people like to do that. I guess it is a "gang mentality" thing.

[Cannikin]

19. I'm offended by your use of 'faggy'

Ok not really. I dont offend easily. I'm just trying to keep it 'lite' around here!

Excellent post, Skinner!

[philosophie_en_rose]

20. Thanks!

This is a great thread.

There seem to be a few mini-Cartmans on Maury Povich who should think about the human beings on the other side of the screennames.

(Whatevah! Whatevah! I do what I want!) :(

[OldLeftieLawyer]

21. It's what kids do

Don't be so hard on yourself. That's part of growing up, like it or not; kids are the cruelest creatures on earth. Darwin tells you that's a survival mechanism - remember "Lord Of The Flies"? - but, as a mother, I tell you that kids are like that because they're so afraid.

You just unmasked the worst thing about message boards - that the cowards hide behind their cyber-blessed anonymity and vent the cruelty that they really should have gotten out of their systems many years earlier.

They're too afraid to confront their demons in their real lives, so they sneak online and do it to the people they perceive to be somehow "less" than they, the cowards, would like to believe they are.

But, they aren't. They're inferior, and what they do here is proof positive.

And they know it. Lord, do they know it, and do they hate it about themselves.

So, they lash out.

Humans. What a grand species we are. So utterly predictable, so intolerant and cruel, and yet so capable of ineffable beauty and generosity.

You were just a child, Skinner. You've made your peace, done your penance, and now you can hold onto your left one and proceed along your kind and thoughtful path.

Here - let me buy you a beer, child ------------------->

[Shell Beau]

24. I think you spoke well. I was always in the "it"

group, but I never once joined in in making fun of people b/c it hurt my feelings so bad for those that it affected. I'm not saying I was perfect by any means, but no matter what, just try to remember people's feelings and how things might hurt them. None of us are perfect. :grouphug:

[Rainbowreflect]

25. You made me cry.

Unfortunately it is not just in school. It's in the work place, in all social gatherings & on DU.
If we could remember that every person we have contact with has feelings & fears just like we do, and being cruel to anyone won't make you a better person, maybe we could be a little kinder.

[welshTerrier2]

28. how can we be a Party or better yet a movement ...

when our vision and values as individuals are often so limited ???

[bridgit]

30. i like it here in the lounge...

now mind you, i had to be degraded as being "on dope", smoking "bongs" and such for not much more than speaking my mind, and i've had to crawl through the metaphorical mud teeth-deep beneath high speed ordnance, pissy comments & barbed wire to be here in one piece; but i've been there too.

too many people have made great sport of the lesser among us whom ever they may be imo

:hi:

[matcom]

31. ummm, last nights bullshit aside ....

i believe there is MUCH more to this than THAT particular reference

*note: i wasn't around for 99% of it either*

the 1% that i WAS "involved in" (based on a thread of mine) DID tick me off though

just my $.02

[bridgit]

89. there it is...

i posted in gd, i think it was, and someone replied 'testing new avatar', so i clicked it and it was a pic of a urinal...

stupid is as stupid does reckon :shrug:

[Left Is Write]

34. Skinner...

I've told some of the story in some of the pieces right here in the Lounge, but my junior high story - seventh and eighth grade specifically - would curl the hair of all but the most hard-hearted of people.

I'd be happy if I never had to think about those two years of my life ever again. Living it was like living a little bit of hell on earth.

Eventually, I too learned how to climb the social ladder to the acceptance I had in high school. My shame is not that I picked on anyone. My shame is that I remained silent when someone I could have defended needed it. And, like you, I will never forgive myself for that, because I WAS that person once, and no one defended me either.

I'm not sure what actually precipitated this post from you, but if I have been one of those who have ever done anything at all to make someone feel unwelcome, picked on, or hurt in this Lounge, then I am sorry. If anyone sees me behave that way, I hope they will call me on it.

It's important for all of us to remember that on the other side of the screen is a real person with real feelings, and that those feelings can be hurt.

[southlandshari]

126. And for that

I give you this:

:applause:

Thank you for a truly insightful and genuine post.

:hi:

[Zomby Woof]

35. *APPLAUSE*

Beautiful. Brilliant.

And it needed to be said. THANK YOU!

[salin]

176. So what happened in the lounge - sounds like not only

a single event, but perhaps an ongoing series of events/interactions... Clearly my lack of time in the lounge these days is showing... as I have NO idea what is being discussed or what I am talking about.

I have seen the lounge turn cliquish - and suddenly strike like a rattle snake before - though only on very rare occaission.

[1gobluedem]

36. Thanks, Skinner

While I have never been insulted in the Lounge I have nearly always been ignored because I'm not a regular poster. I think most Lounge regulars just look for the same names and reply only to their buddies. I don't feel hurt but I often feel left out -- just the way it was for me in school because so many of my interests were different from my friends'.

[CO Liberal]

37. I Said Yesterday That I Was Gonna Take a Break From Posting....

...but I had to post here to thank you for starting this thread, Skinner.

I've been an outcast all my life - first as a geeky, skinny kid with bright red hair, then as the weirdo who liked fat girls, then as the nerd who never quite fit in, then as a hippie freak.....

You get the idea.

Pecking orders and cliques (like what has been developing lately in the Lounge) may be part of human nature, but they can be very destructive. Remember, the Columbine shootings were the result of two guys who were low on the pecking order striking back against those who were higher up.

I'm going back into exile now. For how long, I can't say. Maybe a few people around here will reconsider how they've been acting lately, and the effect it can have on their targets.

Wayne
(CO Liberal)

[intheflow]

149. You're gonig into exile?

You're one of the first people I ever felt I connected with on DU, CO Liberal. I'll miss you! :(

[CubsFan1982]

38. You were spot on with this.

For me, high school isn't all that long ago, and while I certainly had friends, I wasn't the most popular guy in the world. Lately the Lounge seems to be making memories of my high school years spring to life. Most of the people in the Lounge are good and decent folks who are here to have fun and engage in some kind of reality outside of the dark and depressing world of George W. Bush. But sometimes we can go too far, and I've seen it. I didn't say anything because I'm relatively new and I didn't want to get flamed. But you've said everything I wanted to say, and I hope we can all take something from this, because at one time or another, whether we admit or not, most of us have done something cruel to another person (whether here or in another capacity), and we need to acknowledge that.

[stellanoir]

39. thanks

for your truthful and revelatory post. I dunno. I feel like most here are incredibly positive people who are devoted to the cause of saving whatever vestige is left of our democracy.

I mostly lurke in the lounge. When I hear of a conflict, I think, "my goodness, it's just a flopping message board. . . .why are people so-o-o bloody hypersensitive. . .? "

I too have had the perception that it sometimes resembles high school or junior high, or even the sandbox.

Yet people are hurting for the very reasons that bind us together.
And we more often get along than we do not.

Thanks for providing us this forum and being so wise in terms of its sometimes onerous administration.

Best,

[HamstersFromHell]

41. Well said, Skinner!

I've seen the same in countless online "groups". There's sort of a herd or better yet, a "posse" mentality. Most of the members of the cliques (face to face or online) wouldn't dare say some of the things they say unless they know they have a crowd to "get their back" for them. Much like the high school pack of bullies, they run when confronted one-on-one.

Anyone who participates in such junior high crap is kidding themselves. You don't stand taller by standing on the back of the person you just kicked to the curb.


:thumbsup:

[Bouncy Ball]

43. I haven't been in the lounge all week, so I don't know what

predicated this, or if it's just a general thing, but well....I don't really know what to say.

I go out of my way to respond to people whose posts never seem to get responses. I say hi to people I never see getting any of these:

:hi:

And I don't know what all this snickering, under the table stuff is about.

The entire lounge should be ashamed?

Color me confused.

On edit: believe me, I have middle school stories. Stuff so bad I won't even describe it here. I think most of us do. I just don't get what you are referencing.

[orwell]

44. Weird

I had a similar experience with a different ending.

I went to a Catholic grammar school and a Jesuit High school in San Francisco, both very elite. I was a poor kid who got in with scholarships.

I was tall, athletic AND geeky.

In grammar school, I once got the shit kicked out of me by the class bully because I insisted that the stuttering kid be allowed his turn at bat in a meaningless lunchtime softball game.

You see, everyone mistook his stuttering for some kind of mental deficiency. I probably thought the same thing. But I thought that whatever his problem was, he was a human being with feelings who deserved respect. Two black eyes and a bloody nose later I still felt that way.

He got his turn at bat. He struck out. We lost.

When I returned to class the nun took one look at me and sent me to the school nurse. When asked what happened, I told her I slid into home plate wrong and banged my face. She knew I was lying but there was nothing she could do about it.

After school, the kid who beat me up asked me what I said. I told him I protected his identity because I felt the "problem" was between him and me. I'll never forget the look on his face. He walked away stunned.

Close to 20 years later, I saw him at a class reunion. He greeted me like we were old friends. He brought up the time he kicked my butt and we both laughed. He then told me something I will never forget. He told me that he was ashamed of what he had done.

Here's another twist to the story. I saw the kid that I "defended" in a high school play at another "enemy" Catholic High School, Riordan in San Francisco. He was a tremendous actor with a beautiful voice and magnificent stage presence. When I saw his name in the program I was stunned.

After the play I went backstage to say hi. I hadn't seen him in years. He immediately remembered me and thanked me for getting my ass kicked on his behalf so many years ago. We both laughed.

He told me that doctors had determined that the reason he stuttered was that his mind worked too fast for his mouth to articulate words properly. As he matured the "problem" went away. He was doing well in school and he looked forward to a creative future.

The morals of this story have always stayed with me.

Might never makes right.
You can never predict the consequences of seemingly small actions.
Appearances are deceiving.
Fear lasts a moment, grace a lifetime.
The wheels of karma always come full circle, whether we see it or not.

In the end...
Treat others as you wish to be treated, whether you think they "deserve it" or not.
Try to do the right thing every day, no matter how hard it seems.

Nobody can take my humanity from me but me.

Thanks for triggering some good memories Skinner. Peace right back at ya.

[Shell Beau]

51. That is beautiful!

O8)

[orwell]

99. Thanks SB

Here's another one.

In seventh grade there was a small, smart aleck, funny kid named Joe. I never paid much attention to him. Hell, I could hardly see him as he was probably a foot shorter than me.

One day one of the "tough cool kids" stole Joe's expensive monogrammed fountain pen. Joe came from a well-off family and the gift was from his father. Well the tough guy proceeded to run around the school yard waving Joe's pen above his head and taunting him with it. Joe being so short was jumping up to try and get it, which was never going to happen.

I remember how unfair I thought it was. Forgetting my previous ass-kicking, I ran across the schoolyard and got up in this guy's face. At that point, I was taller than him and presented a far more formidable opponent than Joe. I told him that what he was doing was wrong and that if he didn't give back the pen, I would present the matter of the theft to the nuns for their approval.

Seeing that the "fun part" was drawing to a close he reluctantly gave me the pen. Instead of immediately giving it to Joe, I waited until he had gone away, slinging threats in my direction, before I gave the pen to Joe. I allowed him to save face, not because of any nobility, but probably because I remembered getting my ass kicked a year or so earlier.

Joe and I became friends and actually started one of the first rock bands that St. Cecelia's ever saw. We went on to St. Ignatius together where we both worked on the school newspaper. He was the editor, I the designated class clown.

Forward the story about 20 years. I was at a very low point in my life. I had been in and out of drug use and depression (thanks to Ollie North and his "Contraband") and was seriously considering ending it all. As I sat in my bedroom, contemplating the easiest way to end it (pills, endless Reagan speeches on a tape loop) I cried out for the first time in my life for help.

I remember sitting on the bed, by this point an agnostic to the core, and crying out: "If there is a God, I need some kind of sign. I can't take this fucking madness anymore. I need to know that my pathetic life has meaning!"

A minute or so later the phone rings. On the phone was a man's voice I didn't recognize.

"Hello (my name)"

"Yes"

"I don't know if you remember me. My name is Joe _____. I got your number from _______ (a mutual acquaintance, one of the only people I was still in touch with from HS). I just wanted to thank you for being who you are."

"What do you mean," tears now beginning to well in my eyes.

"Remember when you stood up for me in grammar school."

"Yeah"

"Well I was going through a really rough time back then. I was short. Everyone thought I was a smart ass. I'll always remember that you became my friend when I needed it most. I want you to know that the world is a much better place with people like you in it."

Well now I was really crying. I remember stammering something like: "I wish I could tell you how important this phone call is to me."

He asked me what was wrong and I made up some excuse, embarrassed to admit that I was borderline suicidal. I composed myself. We made some small talk and agreed to stay in touch, which we have almost 15 years later.

When the call was over, I remembered my plea and realized how quickly it was answered. As I sat there stunned and shaking, I watched my evolved cynical worldview change into something far more humbled. From that point on I accepted the wonder that is life, realizing that in my arrogance, I had forgotten a most important lesson.

In the greater scheme there exists tremendous beauty and wonder in the awesome power of love and compassion.

Make it so...

[Celebration]

187. amazing

That's all I can say. I am never in this place called the Lounge (just followed the greatest thread), but I am glad I came and read this story. Truly amazing-- very wondrous world indeed.

[Shell Beau]

221. That is very touching.

I sure am glad you got that phone call. It just goes to show that you serve a purpose in this world. :)

[Missy Vixen]

46. Skinner, thank you

Those of us who aren't fashion-model perfect, amazingly witty and/or brilliant (and never have been,) appreciate your comments. I'm not one of the beautiful people, and never will be. I had the female version of your junior high and high school experience, except I was done before I even started. After all, who wants to be friends with the fat girl?

If kicking others when they're down, belittling, and basically being ugly to someone (or many someones,) the beautiful people you mention have never met is the price of being cool or "accepted," I'll pass.

Julie

[BlueIris]

49. Thanks for this post, Skinner.

I would extend the junior-high society analogy to encompass all forums at DU at the moment, though. Curiously, I wouldn't have posted that three weeks ago. I mean, as someone who had such a brutal introduction to the public school clique-world in sixth grade (before that I had attended a marvelously clique-free private school) that I became numb to the concept of being an outcast by high school, I hadn't really noticed the clique atmostphere on this site until recently. Or rather, until the clique bitchiness started getting directed at me. And when attitudes are harsh enough to trip my "wow-that-was-hurtful" meter--they're pretty bad. Which is terrible, because, for me, until just this short time ago, I had regarded this site as a friendly and supportive environment.

[lpbk2713]

54. Well said, Skinner. And thanks for saying it.

We grew up similarly although years apart. I grew up in a community outside Boston like you describe and I was always on the outside looking in although I didn't mind it a whole lot because I only knew how I lived and not them.

This brings up the opportunity to mention just briefly one topic I have wanting to touch on for some time but it seems like when something critical is said it just opens up the flame wars so I always decide to let it pass.

It would be really well received if we could lighten up a bit on prejudices and stereotypical opinions on certain states and regions of the country. I have seen several comments like "... that sounds like something someone from ----- would do", you get the idea. When DUers do it I wonder if they consider that they are offending other DUers who are lifelong Dems and liberals. I don't want to beat this topic to death but it would be nice if people would think a bit before they put their thoughts down in a thread.

Thanks, Skinner, for running a terrific board.

[cleofus1]

57. i must be out of the loop....

i have no idea what you're talking about...i retreated to the lounge because GD is such a hateful place...never thought the lounge had a problem...maybe that's a good thing...

hey skinner don't feel bad...i was a band geek at a school with armed guards, barbed wire and lots of poor people,,,including my family...at that point everyone treats you like an outsider...

hell as long as people keep letting me post old photos I'll keep coming here...



imagine me with my clarinet walking to school in the morning...
hey...but i did get that snappy uniform with the big furry hat!

[Misunderestimator]

62. From one band geek to another...

:toast: (and a choir geek and every other kind of geek except a geek with any friends :) ) The kids I went to school with (for tooooo many years in a small town in Texas) all made a game out of backing against the lockers as I walked down the hall... Ahhh... childhood. How I miss it. :sarcasm:

[cleofus1]

75. ha ha

you're a sweetheart...Misunderestimator...


all my pals were in the "glee club" or the "thespian society"...tell me who the hell with a sick sense of humor thought up those names...

[WilliamPitt]

60. "Congratulations, beautiful people"

Skinner, I was in the same kind of boat in junior high, and it was indeed hell. I think your post is very good, but I worry about the broad-brush approach. "Congratulations, beautiful people" makes me wonder who you are referring to.

I agree with your premise, but I always worry when I see broad-brush comments from anyone. Maybe I am wrong. I sure don't know who the "beautiful people" are in here, because I don't spend enough time in here to find out. Ergo, take my concerns with a grain of salt.

[matcom]

65. almost like a reverse calling out

wierd

[bridgit]

69. you mean some sort of...'calling in'...

:shrug:

[matcom]

72. maybe

see #31

[bridgit]

80. ah so...

[knowbody0]

61. thanks for sharing skinner

peace and love

[redqueen]

63. Thank you, Skinner.

I'm glad you said something.

I know the common logic is just "get over it", but those insults and barbs from school haunt me sometimes, still. It pains me to admit it... but there it is. Seeing that kind of thing go on here... well I don't really even know how say what I want to...

Anyway, thanks.

[RagingInMiami]

64. Good job for pointing out the obvious truth

[Redstone]

68. Concur. A good argument is good, but picking on people is wrong.

Even a bit of name-calling regarding issues is reasonable, but not personal attacks.

That's not what this is supposed to be about. Caveat: People shouldn't be too sensitive, either.

I think we all know where the lines should be drawn, and am surprised they were crossed so tackily.

Redstone

[Lone_Star_Dem]

Thanks for sharing, Skinner

We've all done things as children that we regret. It's part of the process of maturing into a decent adult. I remember not standing up for another girl in HS and still feel guilty for it.

I was too skinny, wore glasses and late to develop. A recipe for social disaster if ever there was one. I know what it's like to be the uncool. JH was not a good time in my life. Due to that experience I try and play nice with the other kids now.

For the record, if you plan on having children in the future, I think you'll be a good father. :)

[Misunderestimator]

70. Doesn't this sort of break the rules of not calling out other DUers?

Seriously. I think this is a bit over the top to call out the whole lounge as juvenile and hurtful. I really don't get it.

(On edit... I won't go into the many, many times I've been offended by sexist remarks in the lounge, but I don't make accusations against everyone here for that. Seems to me that those sorts of subjects are much more prevalent than the ones I'm guessing you're referring to. Most people here do NOT insult others' physical appearances.)

[matcom]

76. agree

100%

[VelmaD]

90. Lounge bashing...

is a favorite pastime for some people on DU. :(

[enigmatic]

93. You know what?

This is probably one of the few times I've agreed w/ you. You are absolutely right about this.

[Misunderestimator]

96. LOL... I was just about to say that to you below...

:hi:

[enigmatic]

101. See!

They've brought us together; how crazy is that?:)

[Misunderestimator]

105. Too funny!

:pals:

[redqueen]

100. Maybe it's just me, but I kinda got the impression that this was directed

at people who know good and well it is directed at them, not at everyone in the Lounge.

:shrug:

[Misunderestimator]

104. Perhaps... but it seemed to come across as an indictment against

the Lounge itself... and the "beautiful people"... and I don't know who those beautiful people are. I certainly hope that this is directed at the unthinking cruel remarks of the very few and not at the lounge as a whole (but if so, why call them beautiful?). But I can only read what I read, until I hear a clarification. :shrug:

[redqueen]

119. I read "beautiful people" to mean those

who, essentially, seemed to at least act as if they considered themselves to be above others.

But, again... :shrug:

[Misunderestimator]

145. Could be, but it seems too general a term to apply to just two or three

people... maybe I missed something, but I think it's just two or three people. And starting an entire thread to castigate them? Instead of dealing with it privately? No... that's why it seems to me to be addressing a larger audience.

[EarlG]

183. Well, we did address it privately

But then you wouldn't know that, because we did it privately.

And even after we tried to deal with this privately a few days ago, people still managed to start up even worse shit today than they did before. So I guess Skinner thought a more public shaming might work, but apparently that's not the case.

Let me put it this way: if you're confused about whether or not this is directed at you, it is not directed at you.

[Misunderestimator]

188. Thanks for the reply. I know it's not directed at me.

I was just questioning why it seemed to be directed at the entire lounge. I will say that I apparently missed the thread in question, so I shall bow out of this conversation. :hi:

[redqueen]

195. You know what... I figured you did.

You guys...

:loveya:

[Maddy McCall]

102. Well, after I did a little research and know the context...

I couldn't agree with you more. DUers are very supportive of each other.

As for the specifics that led to this post...I guess when some DUers bully others, they shouldn't complain when a jab gets thrown back their way.

The people whose complaints precipitated this thread are the ONLY people at DU who I've put on ignore. The bullying is precisely the reason why.

[democracyindanger]

110. Yep, it's a two way street

The roles of bully and victim switch often, not only in the Lounge, or on DU, but on every board on the net.

[Pithlet]

122. There are people

on this board who drive me crazy. But somehow I, and most people on this board, manage to resist the temptation to publicly humiliate them. As much as I dislike some people on this board, I don't revel in their misery when they post a goodbye post. Most don't post snarky, thinly veiled pot shots at them. Or insult them for any physical qualities they have. Some of the posts in this thread are just rationalizations. They deserved it. Well, maybe that can be argued, but I think it is irrelevant. I'm sorry, but it doesn't excuse those posts. It drug the whole lounge down. I think Skinner was absolutely spot on. And it's making some people squirm.

[redqueen]

125. Thank you for all your posts on this thread.

:applause:

[Maddy McCall]

148. Oh, I saw the snarky thread that led to this.

It was completely immature and stupid. That DUer has a history of posting borderline bannable posts that pick on other people.

I agree that no one should be targeted for physical appearance. The context doesn't make it excusable. Just understandable. The history here, the pattern of the people who were targeted has angered me in the past. The pattern of creating flamewars to have threads that they find objectionable shut has angered me many times in the past. That's why the "ignore" comment. It has had nothing to do with their physical appearance.

Let me say clearly: The post that led to Skinner's post was mean-spirited and wrong.

[Pithlet]

159. I think the problem that some are having

is that Skinner did this publicly. While I understand that, I think it was good that he did so. While all this was going on, there were few, if any, that were calling them on it. I think that gives the impression that that sort of thing is okay around here. I was tempted, and even had a reply put together myself. But, I chickened out. Which is why I was happy to see what Skinner did. I don't hate any of the people involved. And the lounge would be a dull place without the wit and the snark, which I love. I think it went too far, and a public acknowledgment of that may not have been such a bad thing.

[the Princess]

196. First of all

*I* have never ever done what you are accusing me of.

The pattern of creating flamewars to have threads that they find objectionable shut has angered me many times in the past.

So please stop making an unfounded accusation.

[Bouncy Ball]

158. Then the behavior that provoked it should be dealt with, too

(I'm NOT saying what was done was ok!!!)

[Maddy McCall]

164. I certainly agree with that.

:thumbsup:

[Pithlet]

172. If I recall, it was.

I saw many of their posts locked. And many people who rightfully objected to their behavior. They did it without insults and humiliation.

I'm just saddened and disgusted by some of the rationalization in this thread. I guess I just don't care if someone deserves it. I do think that some people are letting their dislike of the two people involved color their view of this.

[Bouncy Ball]

181. Did you notice where I said I am NOT excusing or rationalizing any

thing?

I can believe what was posted here was nasty and immature (I didn't even see it, but I can gather) and I can also believe, as I do, that the people in question have acted like bullies, especially one of them, the only person I've EVER had to put on ignore on DU, for their completely ugly remarks about anyone younger than 18 and how stupid they must be.

[Pithlet]

184. My comment wasn't directed at you

but at many of the other posts in this thread. I'm sorry I didn't make that clear. There are people in this thread who clearly think that what happened was no big deal, or that it was justified.

I don't excuse anything they did. I don't blame anyone who was ever hurt or offended by them.

[redqueen]

201. Yes, it was dealt with at the time. n/t

[newfaceinhell]

great post

I haven't been here to witness some of the past events being described, but I have to say one of those threads in particular struck me as inexcusably cruel and mean-spirited- and I can't imagine anyone telling me anything that could change my opinion on that.

[Pithlet]

182. I don't get the rationalizations

Thanks for your reply. I don't mean to be the great defender of the wronged on this board. But, I didn't want to just shut up about it, either.

[salin]

213. from the recap I have heard

way over the top and way too personally cruel was the mode of the sendoff. Not a vent of anger. Not a don't let the door slam ya... but what sounds needlessly cruel and personal.

I have seen it before here - and it is the worst when others come together and high five as there is great glee in being as painfully hurtful and cruel as possible. Even to those who have aggravated me the most, here, would I never cross the line of making exceptionally ugly personal insults to make my point.

rather makes the place very unpleasant for all casual observers - far more so that the preceding flamewars. There is a different between an aur voire steeped in that last flame... and being gleefully ugly and cruel.

Then again perhaps that is my acursed "midwestern sensibilities" speaking.

[funkybutt]

77. are people allowed to tell me what exactly you're talking about?

Thanks for the post. I get a pretty good idea about what you are talking about but I guess I just haven't visited the right threads. I always get there after the posts have been deleted.


Guess I'm not one of the "cool kids" LOL

[Maddy McCall]

78. What memories you brought back for me.

My story is pretty much like yours. I picked on the girl who had elderly parents and who was basically the target of everyone's jokes.

I saw her several years ago. She hugged me and told me it was good to see me. I broke down in tears and told her how sorry I was that I was so mean to her, and I begged her for her forgiveness. She gave me my request, and released me from years of guilt that I had felt. I only wish I were half as generous as she is.

I don't know what happened in the lounge today. I've been working. If, in the past, I've been any part of this assholery, I apologize now to anyone I have mistreated. I haven't purposefully done so.

Skinner, thank you for this post. I hope we'll see more of your posts, now that AtA is gone. Posts like this remind us that you are a vital part of this community.

Thanks for bringing back memories, even though they are awful memories. We all need to be reminded that we sometimes behave like juveniles. We should be ashamed.

Edited to add: Now that I know the context of what happened, I see that people who have bullied others here have once again played the victim when a jab got returned to them. It's hard to feel pity for that.

[the Princess]

206. please PLEASE

Stop calling me a bullie. I never bullied anyone. Please stop it.

[BlondieK143]

210. Why are you still here???

If what that poster/responders did was so outrageous and hurtful, why do you keep claiming you're going to leave and then you don't? Wait, I know, because LORD forbid anyone else get to say something that disagrees with you. If we're all as horrible as you say we are, once again, why are you still here????

[redqueen]

215. To defend herself?

Just a guess...

Some people don't care what anyone thinks about them. Some people do.

In my humble but honest opinion, it's those that care that tend to make the world a happier place.

I'd like to add that I like CO Liberal and The Princess... and I like the people that seemingly feel justified in being mean to them... even though I don't like what they're doing.

I really hate this situation.

[the Princess]

219. Thank you Redqueen

:hug:

You see the point of all the hsit that went down with me and hubby was to get us to leave - that post above proves my point. You can't disagree - you must be silenced.

[BlondieK143]

227. Are you kidding me??

If ANYONE said anything to disagree with you or your husband, you all TOOK OVER THE THREADS! Do you not remember the Fat Actress thing?? How about THAT for silenced? Don't play the "pity me" thing with me, It doesn't work. No one here was out to get you all as you seem to think. You set out to make it that way from the beginning. I'm sorry, but you don't get my sympathy. Kharma is a BITCH.

[BlondieK143]

222. If she doesn't care what people think about her...

Am I missing something here?

[redqueen]

231. You misread... I said *some* people don't care

and some people do.

I get the impression The Princess is someone who cares.

[the Princess]

217. Becasue you all are talking about me

But I appreciate your concern

[CornField]

223. self-delete

I'm going to go for a run.

[sniffa]

229. ah, showing your baLLs again

[CornField]

233. Must be a blow to those who thought they had the market cornered.

BBL

[Pithlet]

79. Thank you, Skinner. n/t

[ralps]

82. Thanks a lot Skinner, your junior high school life sounds a lot like my

junior high school, and my high school. I went to a private school from 7th grade through 12th grade. It was a great education, but very cliquish. I was not very athletic, but I was very artistic, so I hung out in the art room, most of my friends were not part of the "in crowd". I swore never to be exclusionary in my life. Recently some things happened here in the lounge that made me upset, I hope your thread helps resolve some of those situations.
:hi: :loveya: :hug: :pals: :woohoo:

[Seabiscuit]

83. Has something been going on in the DU Lounge that I've been completely

unaware of?

I've never witnessed the kind of juvenile cruelty that Skinner's describing in the DU Lounge. I've seen it in GD and GD Politics, but never in the DU Lounge.

I've been hanging here since the November 2 fiasco, because the other forums just got too heated, and yes, at times cruel.

What have I missed? Granted, I don't have time to read all the threads, even in one little forum, and I'm sure Skinner is aware of a lot more than I am, but I'm puzzled that I have never felt there was any juvenile cruelty going on in the Lounge.

[MissB]

88. I was similarly clueless, but after asking

someone via pm, it all made sense.

Skinner is spot on.

[salvorhardin]

84. Thank you n/t

[hunter]

91. In Jr. High and High School I often got my hair "washed" in the toilet...

...and whenever I wasn't getting my hair washed, I was getting my head slammed in lockers, pushed down stairs, etc. Eventually I developed a cloak of invisibility, an innocuous "happy mask," but when that didn't work I could say some incredibly vile things to my tormentors, or punch them in the face, which usually escalated the violence.

I guess I was lucky, I really never had any hope at all of being in the "in crowd" and I am usually blissfully unaware of pecking orders until I get run over by them.

But now that I'm big and all grown up, and well heh, I make one hell of a speed bump. A reckless pecker could break an axel running over me.

I don't know what happened here last night, but I'm glad I wasn't there. I've always found the lounge to be a friendly place, but maybe that's because I'm not paying attention.

I try very hard not to be mean.

[enigmatic]

92. Sorry, but I don't agree w/ this

You know, I'm not in a "clique" here (and yea, there are exclusionary cliques here); if I made a "I'm leaving DU" post I doubt that no more then a small handful would give 2 shits about it, and that's cool w/ me. You want to talk about being picked on when you were a kid? I've got stories of my own that would send you screaming.

I do know that the 2 people apparently in question since I've been here have managed to get talk of one TV show verboten single-handedly because of their own feelings, that they attack and attack some more when posters have tried to debate them on any number of subjects, and when they start getting on the losing end, then the "you hate me because I'm fat!!" crap comes out and they come running to ATA or the mods to cry some more. I absolutely hate that shit, especially since their own behavior has been, shall we say, combative as well.

I don't care who is fat, thin, ugly, beautiful, old, young, whatever; I don't look like Brad Pitt and never will. I don't judge people on this board by their appearance, I judge them on their actions, and always will. I don't care what they look like. Period.

You know how I do away w/ the cliques? I put them on "ignore" or "hide thread", and I go about my day. Takes me 2 minutes at the most, and the hassle content is minimal. That's what the buttons are there for IMO; it's a good thing to have on any board.

I've been here a year and in that time I've never seen anybody being mocked for asking for help here; hell, I don't "know" Andy S. and he doesn't know me, yet I happily gave to his fund and I'd do it again. That's the best of DU. Are there bad things/posters here? Absolutely. Again, that's what the ignore and hide thread buttons are for.

Maybe those who have a chip on their shoulder the size of Montana will finally look into the mirror and stop w/ the blame game and really search inside as to what's felling their own victimization; maybe the light will go on; I hope so.

Everybody's got problems here; EVERYBODY. It's how you handle those problems inwardly and outwardly that defines you as a human being. You continue to strike out, well, people are going to strike back. That's human nature.

I have great respect for you and DU Skinner, but I don't agree w/ you on this.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

117. You know,

if you lived in this country, I'd have you for my cliient for free.

Well said.

[enigmatic]

155. I did!

But I moved to the frozen north for love!:)

Seriously, thanks for that; that really made me feel good.

[CubsFan1982]

95. And yet, people are still defending the bullshit.

:shrug:

[thecai]

97. Thank You Skinner!

That's the reason I haven't posted as much in here lately.

[Deja Q]

98. People are people. You grew up, which commendable. Others need to.

I've seen many people leave, usually making a 'final post' explaining why. Usually because of personal attacks bestowed upon them or their spouses.

Even I had left (though I came back 3 weeks later) because I was attacked, very strongly, and the creep hounding me was seemingly totally unpunished for what were VERY harsh attacks; in several threads and going out of his way to make one in "my honor". What a thug. I even made a new pseudonym in a lame attempt to hide because I had the impression he was STALKING me, though in retrospect I should have thought things through first instead of acting summarily... in the angst of the time I had made my own mistake as well, one I also regret.

But the past is the past and there's a greater lesson at work. I think of it like this: Those creeps will ALWAYS exist, no matter where we go, there they are. Why should anyone massage their callous egos by leaving, which is what they want us to do? The good people that remain here are the ones we should all be concentrating on.

Thank you for the bravery to post what you had, Skinner. And that you were able to grow up. Many such kids don't, and I was the victim of many stunts far more cruel than stuttering (though I had a stutter and a lisp, which were the sources of entertainment for many). Many I won't post because of how vile they were. One was so horrendous, even my phy-ed teacher intervened (and he took every opportunity to touch me inappropriately...)

[Jamastiene]

103. I'm an older person in college

and I am still an outcast. I live in an extremely conservative area where many people think they are being open minded merely by not directly joining the KKK, but they still are racist, sexist, homophobic (moreso than many can imagine) and classist. Picking on someone who is living in a society set up so that they are at a disadvantage is what the progressives seem to want to stop. I will alert if I notice anyone picking on anyone for those reasons. I am assuming you are talking about the class thing more than anything here. I don't like it when people assume everyone can afford anything, but most of my experiences on DU have been very nice. I love it here.

[miss_kitty]

106. I see some people who think of themselves as victims

as being the bullies. And *I* was on the receiving end of the bullying. And when they were unsuccessful with the baiting and bullying THEY were trying to accomplish, they turned into the put-upon, who never did anything to anyone. Which was a misrepresentation. I don't see what's been going on here to be in the slightest related to your Jr High experience.

I was not a cool kid in Jr High or High school. Try as I might to keep my head down there, I was STILL often singled out for bullshit and torture. And I went to a moderately large High School-grew up in a well to do area-close to Billy Gates, actually, and about the same time. And there was plenty of nerd action going on at my school. There was just a surfeit of cruelty, as well.

And I understand your shame. We have all done shit we are not proud of. What did I do to alleviate my pain? I found the next ones down in the pecking order. I was never good at it though. Just knew how badly it felt to be on the receiving end, and it did not achieve my goal of 'feeling cool.'

Now I don't know really just exactly who you are thinking of that was truly bullied in the lounge. If it's not who I am thinking of, it must have been someone or some thread I did not see.

[sniffa]

107. i was an outcast in high schooL

and then i joined a gang.

[johnnie]

108. The Jets or the Sharks?

[sniffa]

118. the bLoodhound gang

ever hear of us?

[JohnKleeb]

127. are you gonna do it like you did on the discovery channel

:scared:
Anyhow in regards to this, I dont like to attack people but I will defend myself when attacked in regards to things like my age with people saying youre only 17 what do you know, etc.

[Worst Username Ever]

156. PBS, or Fierce Beer Coaster?

[sniffa]

160. hitLer's handicapped heLpers

"oh baby, youuuuuu ain't got no Legs"

[BlondieK143]

109. From someone who was made fun of - I don't think this is fair.

First of all, I've been chubby all of my life. Fat and glasses doesn't make you the most popular kid ever, so I know what it's like to be made fun of and to be ridiculed.

With that said, I think everyone comes into DU with their own agendas. I come here to talk to friends and make my mornings at work go by much faster. In my opinion, certain people come onto these boards to get into juvenile fights with others. Most of the time, those same people that come in here looking to start conflict are the EXACT same ones that will be the first to turn around and complain to the admins that their feelings were hurt. I, personally, don't make it my agenda to hurt others, but I also know when to step away. This is a message board. Simple as that. No one is forcing anyone to be here and no one is forcing people to read certain threads. That's why you all make those lovely ignore and hide thread features. Are we supposed to be sheltered here? If this same high school bullshit goes on in real life, shouldn't we automatically assume it's going to happen here? No one ever said we all had to be friends here and no one ever said we had to agree on everything. I don't think that by saying "I think it's fucking disgusting, and I think you should all be ashamed" is going to help things either. I bet there's not that many people on DU that could say their feelings haven't been hurt at some point on this board. Each time I step into GD and try to post my opinion, I'm made to feel like I'm less intelligent and a lot worthless than the posters that are normally there. Do I run to you all and sob? No. It was MY choice to step in there. No one pushed me. Which is exactly why I rarely go in there.

People are going to be people. We're all going to say things that are going to hurt people whether we want it to or not. This has happened before and I don't quite understand why such a big deal is being made about it now. I mean no disrespect by this post, but we're all allowed to voice our opinions here and this is mine.

[Runcible Spoon]

120. well said.

:applause:

[Lavender Brown]

132. I don't think that a majority of people ARE responsible

but someone would have that impression if they had just joined today. Someone posted something extremely offensive - not just to those two people, but offensive in general- and 15 people responded like it was the funniest thing they had ever seen. Only one or two people dared to say otherwise. It was embarrassing and sad.

[sniffa]

162. that was fucking hiLarious

[BlondieK143]

167. 15 people.

15 people with a right to their own opinion. Hundreds of other Loungers with different ones. And honestly, the people that join today, I'd be more concerned with what they think about the important stuff (you know, the reason why we're here, politics and all) than who is who in the Lounge. Just my opinion.

[Lavender Brown]

186. They were people expressing their opinions, ok

They were also kind of like high school kids patting each other on the back after a prank.

[BlondieK143]

193. And this hasn't happened before?

All I'm trying to say is that this isn't the first time. And why would someone feel the need to start a thread about how a thread that was started hurt their feelings? Wouldn't you just walk away? I'm sorry, maybe I just don't need to get the last word in everytime.

[Lavender Brown]

203. I know... I wasn't talking about that aspect of it

which I think we can agree has been obnoxious. I haven't gotten myself involved in this particular war before, and it's been going on for months. It was a very specific incident today that upset me - not because of the personalities involved, just because it was so rude on face value that I couldn't believe so many people thought it was defensible. If it was aimed at someone else, not at them, nobody would have been laughing. I know its schadenfreude or whatever that word is, but still, it was gross. That's all I'm saying. :shrug:

[BlondieK143]

207. And I completely understand that.

I just think there's a point when you have to say "I'm not going to give him/her the pleasure of letting this bother me." instead of making a huge ass deal about it. :shrug:

[iconoclastic cat]

139. What the heck is this whole thing about, anyway? What started it?

I think I missed something.

[hyphenate]

111. I think a lot of us went through something similar

I remember when I was in high school, and back then, at least I wasn't as embarassed as some were--I went to an all-girls' high school which had a great reputation. And I was popular--to a degree. I was mostly popular because in many ways I was the class clown, or the innovator, or the inventor, or the "activities" director. Everything from my 6ie (sixie) year, inventing a high school and filling it with the best TV characters as our teachers, to having people reading my first novel as I was writing it, to creating the ambience in sophomore year for "Casino 32"--our gambling and card-playing morning sessions, to running the Fantasy and Science Fiction Club for three years. I didn't necessarily get along with everyone, and there were some who put down whatever dreams I had, making themselves out to be superior in some way, which I happily ignored for a long time. I found out later that some of those who pretended to be superior were anything BUT--at least three of them were tossed out of nursing school for doing drugs.

But we all have our weaknesses, and for some, their own insecurities are too great to let others alone. They want to boost their own morale by looking down on others, so that they don't perceive themselves at the bottom of the rung. It seems to me that's one of the many reasons that there are so many conflicts in multi-racial projects--the whites in that squalor are "certain" that they are better than the others there--the blacks, the Hispanics....the blacks are sure they're better than the Hispanics.....and the Hispanics are sure they're better off in the projects than their other family members still in Mexico, Puerto Rico, or whereever else they might be. This kind of one-upmanship is human nature.

How many times as a grown woman have I thought of someone with whom I've severed relationships because of bad feelings, and hoped that the next time I saw them they were 50 lbs heavier, or who had suffered some hardship along the way? When it happens, the realization is "did I somehow cause that to happen to them?" No, I didn't, but what your fantasies are about and what reality is about are two entirely different things.

It's like that online. Many of our "foes" online are really substitutes for those people in our own lives who have come and gone and with whom we have not reconciled. We create an image in our minds which doesn't even look like a nemesis, but who acts as one when we're writing. That person might not even resemble their real life self, but their persona pisses us off enough that we go into full attack mode, and literally try to crucify them because of what they represent to us. I found the best reaction, after a couple of online attacks myself (not at DU), was to go full blown attack in return. I wouldn't suggest that at DU, though, because in so many ways we're supposed to be all on the same side. I think the solution here at DU is to let it alone. Your "foe" doesn't know you. He/she CAN'T know you unless you give them the right tools and weapons to pound you. If you give yourself up to the possibility of attacks, you're giving them the ammunition to insult you, harass you and most of all, belittle you.

On another board, I did finally give up. There was one guy who was quite content to drag me down. Despite warnings from the board administrator, this asshole kept attacking. I left. As I've been in the middle of a great clinical depression (which is only going to get worse instead), I was taking his nastiness way too personally, and with my mental status as it was, it was too much to bear. I post there very rarely, and NEVER with personal information. There once had been a great group of people there, but as they obviously were silent partners in the attacks, by their silence mostly, I realised that online friends are largely an illusion.

We just all need to step back and look at what we're projecting online, would we do the same thing in real life, and whether our online personas are something we're proud of. If we can't do that, we have lost our true selves somewhere between the world we live in, and the world we want to live in.

[rasputin1952]

112. Each and every one of us has the option to 'play or move on'...

The decisions we make are what shows others what we are made of.

Is it all that difficult for those who would toss fuel onto the fire, to just walk away?

Think of this, none of us are perfect. Would the majority of those who find fault w/others situations, post their own situations? Are your feet too big, do you have an odor problem, are you worried about how large or small your nose should be? The list could go on...but generally speaking, those who find pleasure in what may be perceived as flaws in others, are far too fearful to look at their own flaws.

Sure...casting blame can go all over the place. It is easy to cast blame...but difficult to accept responsibility.

I am w/Skinner, the Lounge has turned into something different over time. Perhaps just a little look in the mirror occasionally will remind us that what we sling one day, might well be tossed right into our face the next.

[Beware the Beast Man]

114. "faggy"?

As in, not like the "beautiful people"?

[asthmaticeog]

128. Yeah, weird choice. I know some truly beautiful fags. n/t

[Beware the Beast Man]

142. Didn't someone get granite for using the phrase "fag chair"?

Enlighten me... :shrug:

[asthmaticeog]

147. You are correct, sir.

Wish I remembered that guy's handle, I'd love to find that thread right now.

[Blue Gardener]

115. Thank you Skinner

I haven't been on DU much the last few days (gardening season you know)so I must have missed what's been going on. I totally understand where you're coming from though. I was never part of the "cool kids" crowd either, but I think my friends were probably much more interesting anyway.

[Baclava]

116. Uh - oh ...somebody's going to get a spanking...

Damn kids and their inner net...

[asthmaticeog]

121. This is just wrong.

This is not about "popular kids" chasing "geeks" out of the Lounge. Extraordinarily bellicose people made themselves unwelcome with flamewarrior behavior that verged on the tyrranical. People who behave like that in real life are shunned in real life, too. As the site's administrator, your looking at this through a junior high bullying frame forever casts this incident as an example of elites hounding away the unattractive people. I unequivocally disagree that that's the case. I firmly believe that the bullies LOST this round.

On edit: I should stress that I was a MAJOR public-school outcast - picked on, beaten up, literally even STABBED once, I shit you not - and as such, I know from bullying.

[sniffa]

133. here! here!

:applause:

[Zenlitened]

141. "Extraordinarily bellicose people made themselves unwelcome..."

That's my take on the situation as well. It doesn't make the weight-related "jokes" any less childish, stupid or hurtful. But some of the badgering, abusive behavior by at least one half of the duo in question was really just shocking to see.

[terrya]

151. Amen.

You made some good points. Thank you.

[Worst Username Ever]

178. Thank you. Well written, and I agree.

[miss_kitty]

194. Word. I agree with you, asthmaticeog

I was trying to think of a way to describe that behaviour (reply #106) and you hit it spot on-"...Extraordinarily bellicose people made themselves unwelcome with flamewarrior behavior that verged on the tyrannical." As a target of that behaviour one weekend that was alerted on and reported and repeated after warnings, I was surprised to see them still here the following Monday, still sniping at all and sundry. I have never been attacked in the manner before or since, online or off as I was by one of them, in replies, and in a special thread started up at me, after the offending replies were taken down by a mod.

It's why I don't alert anymore. It doesn't work, and the instigator is seen as the victim.

[katinmn]

123. Skinner, I'm glad you're the owner of the board.

That is all.

[matcom]

124. "hit alert"

isn't that what we have always been told? :shrug:

[Triana]

129. Sounds like you sent to the same schools as I did!

Sheesh!

[Placebo]

130. Whoa, did I miss something?

I'll admit I'm not in The Lounge much anymore these days, but from what I gather, it doesn't seem any different now then it was months ago? :shrug:

Nevertheless, I agree with all that you said Skinner, good words, good words.

[fishnfla]

131. self delete

people should learn the use of ignore and hide thread

[terrya]

134. This gay man seriously resents your use of the word faggy.

I was picked on, laughed at, ostracized, and I got beatup many times because I wasn't...unlike you...one of the "normal" heterosexuals...like you. Don't believe me? Try growing up gay in Decatur, Illinois in 1970. Hate was thrown at me like you wouldn't believe. If we want to match cruelty to cruelty, here's my life.

Oh, right. Using that word "faggy" is a-ok. Even on a "progrsseive" message board.

And, you know? Perhaps those people that we're made to feel shamed about by you...perhaps they aren't entirely blameless of rude, goading behaviors. Just a thought.

[Misunderestimator]

153. I agree...

having actually been called a fag myself (from some asshole who couldn't come up with "dyke" right away)... and I agree on the other part as well.

[Beware the Beast Man]

224. ....

:hug:

[xmas74]

135. I missed something here (once again).

I guess that's what I get for working all night and sleeping in the daytime. I can tell you that, from my very first post here in the Lounge, I was always made to feel welcome. If I ever said anything that was just plain mean to someone else I would hope that person would send me a pm. 99% of the time I really don't know that I said anything wrong. If I am wrong I will apologize.
I never saw this as a community of beautiful people. I always saw this as a community of geeks who are still working on their own issues in life. I try my best to reply to everyone as often as I can but sometimes there are subjects that I am really not sure what to reply over. On those replies, I tend to stay away instead of writing something that will make me look dumber than usual or might come out wrong (top reason that I tend to stay away from GDP and LBN). If someone replies to me I try to reply back (though most here know that sometimes I just don't have time-I have a preschooler to chase around the house). I thought that most people used the same courtesy. I guess that I was wrong to assume.
If anyone has ever been offended by me, please let me know.

[LoZoccolo]

136. People made fun of me in the DU Lounge because of my favorite band.

They said that Oasis sucks, and that Noel Gallagher has a unibrow, and that they copy the Beatles, and that they get in fights with each other.

:cry:

[matcom]

150. Oasis DOES suck!!

his alert. go ahead. i can take it! :P

on edit: i have never actually HEARD them but DS1 TOLD me to post this :D

[LoZoccolo]

161. Well I'm just gonna have to bust you in your jaw then!!

:P

You can say anything with a smiley after it and probably get away with it! :D

[ohiosmith]

163. Tee hee!

:rofl:

[Worst Username Ever]

157. Plus, I have stolen the word Tatanicos, and will claim it as my own.

[LoZoccolo]

165. Well, you can have it!

That's because my word is "titanicoes", not that one that you just said.

[Worst Username Ever]

174. D'OH!

[xmas74]

170. That's ok. You can hang out w/ me.

I like Oasis.

[mzmolly]

137. I don't visit the lounge very often, but I tend to agree with you.

:(

[Jamastiene]

138. I'm older now and have gone back to college

and I am still an outcast. I live in an extremely conservative area where many people think they are being open minded merely by not directly joining the KKK, but they still are racist, sexist, homophobic (moreso than many can imagine) and classist. Even the moderate to libera people here (in real life) shun me because by the time I finally found them, I had started having problems socializing very well. I'm too scared to speak to people in person at this point in life. I'm in therapy for it.

Picking on someone who is living in a society set up so that they are at a disadvantage is what the progressives seem to want to stop. I will alert if I notice anyone picking on anyone for those reasons. I am assuming you are talking about the class thing more than anything. I don't like it when people assume everyone can afford anything, but most of my experiences on DU have been very nice. I love it here.

[Beware the Beast Man]

140. I didn't pick on kids based on their looks.

I picked on the kids who acted like spoiled brats when they didn't get their way. I picked on the kids who behaved obnoxiously when a particular topic came about at the lunch table, until the principal forbade any discussion of said topic. Then after the fact, said kids bragged to their friends about it in a not-so-subtle manner. I picked on the kids because they deserved it. It would be hypocritical of me to pick on them based on their looks.

[Bouncy Ball]

175. Ahem um

applause, applause, applause.

:applause:

[Beaverhausen]

143. I had hoped to be done with cliques after high school

but I am finding them around me a lot lately.

Websites do tend to spawn them. I guess it is human nature.

I've been staying out of the lounge for a while now because it was really pissing me off. I see I'm not the only one.

and I'm REALLY glad I missed whatever happened last night. From what I just read in another thread it sounds like it was pretty fucked up.

[redqueen]

144. Also, FWIW... I've had disagreements with those who seem to be so hated,

and yet still somehow never felt attacked by them.

I was able to disagree, even vehemently, and then move on and not feel compelled to nurture a grudge.

Maybe I missed something... :shrug:

[Maddy McCall]

154. I can only speak for my own history...

of the people targeted. One of them could not let disagreements on the board go. He felt he had to continue attacks through PM. That's why I was forced to hit the ignore button.

But that was just my situation. Like you, I normally let stuff go.

I do find picking on any DUer because of physical appearance to be unfair and wrong.

[the Princess]

208. so then why are you lumping me in with what my husband did

I don't even recall ever posting to you. You are being very unfair here.

[intheflow]

146. This is why I don't hang out in any of "public" forums.

If I see something on the greatest page, if I happen to notice something on the Latest page, that's when I enter the forums. For a particular post. Too many threads are vanity threads, inside jokes, and/or snippy/cliquey. I don't know what brought this up for you, Skinner, but I have to agree that sometimes the Lounge doesn not feel very safe.

Actually, all of DU is starting to feel this way to me. It's not like how angry and mean it was right after the election, but some threads sure feel close. It used to be that the Lounge was a much more safe haven. These days... I'm just not sure.

Thanks, Skinner, once again for saying what had to be said no matter how unpopular.

[progmom]

152. Skinner

Princess called me out in her thread, so I feel like I need to defend myself. If you look at the thread she was referencing, yes... I made a reference to wanting to watch a Woody Allen movie. Was I relieved that Wayne and Sandie had decided to leave for awhile? Yes. It can be like walking on eggshells around the lounge with them sometimes.

At this point I'm sure it matters to no one, but I've been disappointed in the comments about the CO Libs' weight - even alerted on some threads because of it.

Who are the beautiful people here? Who is the cool crowd? I was a chorus/band geek myself. I never wore the right brand names. You think I don't know how it feels to be ostracized? I would contend that most of us with a high post count here has felt that at one time or another in our lives.

You know...much of what you said makes a lot of sense, but I think it's being unfairly applied, and I'm really really disappointed about that.

[Beware the Beast Man]

171. Agreed. Is this the face of one of the "beautiful people"?

[progmom]

173. i think you're beautiful

...you silly man. :hug:

[Beware the Beast Man]

179. Thank you.

:hug: I meant "beautiful" in the colloquial sense.

[JohnKleeb]

180. are you some kinda model

:P
Again, as I said earlier, I don't attack people, I will choose to defend myself. The two posters had a history of prejudice against people in my age group, and thought just because of our age that we couldn't think for ourselves and what have you, I didnt take too kindly to his past suggestion that we label all the under 18 DUers, and a lot of over 18 people did too. I wouldnt go after them becasue of their weight because hell I am overweight too and my little brother for years has made fun of me for it. Ive had the way I talk made fun of for quite a while too.

[Bouncy Ball]

185. If you're asking me, I'd say yes whole-heartedly!

:hi:

And Hi to Mrs. Beastman too! Another beautiful person!

:hi:

[xmas74]

190. I think that it is.

You look wonderful. Your smile is infectious.

[enigmatic]

192. You look fine to me, my friend

Though I'm not too crazy about the shirt:)

[KFC]

197. Where is Teller?

Love your act btw.

[Beware the Beast Man]

200. Wow. Never heard that one!

:eyes:

Actually, you should have seen me when I had long hair. The resemblance was uncanny.

[JimmyJazz]

218. You better fuggin' believe it is!

Is Mrs. Beastman looking? Oh tough noogies, here goes anyway --->

[muchacho]

166. wow

I feel you must have called out the people that you have,,,but I am fucking stunned that this need to be done in this forum.

I don't spend a lot of time in the Lounge and don't know what's going on but for Christ's sack is it THAT PATHETIC?!

[Misunderestimator]

169. No, but apparently this thread sure makes it appear that way.

[valis]

168. Could not agree more...

[Mojambo]

177. Just like highschool. I missed the drama cause I was out back smoking pot.

Seriously though, I feel like I'll never really be part of the social fabric here because I never seem to look at the names of who is posting what.

I guess what I'm saying is that all of you are nameless, faceless posters to me.

[CornField]

189. LMAO!

It is just like high school. I was willing to partake, but wasn't invited. :hi:

Thank you very much for the chuckle.

[PDittie]

191. Thanks for reading my mind, Skin

but I think I'll keep the Lounge on 'ignore' anyway.

A couple of weeks ago I started a thread trying to get a DU gathering going for my trip to Boston over Memorial Day.

I got one response in 24 hours. Granted, I posted in the Massachusetts forum, which apparently no one in Boston reads...

Now my feelings weren't hurt all that much; mostly I was perplexed at the brushoff because I knew I had seen multiple threads and pictures of dozens of Boston DUers at a recent meeting.

So what the hell, I started another thread, here in the Lounge, asking again.

As with the first thread, I got a couple of polite answers from folks who gave me helpful tourist advice, but no commitments to meet up. No big thing, I decided; the wife and I will still have a good time in Beantown ...

Only by some of the posters indicating that there had been a series of threads from others who were annoyed by all the threads about the Boston DU gathering (all of which I missed), was I able to deduce that my thread had apparently been taken by the Boston DU Lounge Lizards as more mocking of them. Which finally made sense to me as to why I was (essentially) blown off.

(Of course, it really could have been my online B.O. ...)

Now, Boston DUers, please don't take this the wrong way. I'm sure you're all a great bunch (in fact I know you are because I saw what a great time you had at your get-together), but as Skinner has more directly spoken to, there is a mentality that seems to take over here in the Lounge that is just too clique-ish and "inside baseball" for me.

It's a herd mentality at best, and at its worst it results in horrifyingly shitty episodes like the Andy Stephenson fake-surgery drama.

This is a fun place for many of you (and I'm not begrudging anyone their fun), but to me it's mostly just mildly annoying, occasionally it's obnoxious and every now and then it's downright hideous.

I'll just steer clear of the Lounge after this post.

(FWIW, I'd still be delighted to meet any Boston Duers when we're there over the upcoming holiday weekend. The thread in MA is probably easier to find than the one in here, or feel free to PM me.)

[BlondieK143]

198. I'm sorry your thread was ignored, BUT

so are many threads that get started here every minute of every hour! Hell, look at my lizard thread! I thought that was pretty freaking important! :D

I don't get it, why did you come in here to begin with?

"This is a fun place for many of you (and I'm not begrudging anyone their fun), but to me it's mostly just mildly annoying, occasionally it's obnoxious and every now and then it's downright hideous."

You obviously don't like the Lounge and with your negative attitude, the Lounge doesn't need you. That's the beauty of a message board, you can leave just as you came in.

[CBGLuthier]

199. I agree 99% with this

The only point of disagreement is it isn't just the lounge.

There are some pretty outrageous things posted all over the board from time-to-time that would be more appropriate on a far right board.

Just today in GD a long time poster declared that every single resident of my state had bulging foreheads and few teeth in there mouths.

Taken care of by the mods, of course, but you got to wonder what goes through some people's minds when they post garbage like that.

[cleofus1]

202. i was picked on for years

becouse i was small....real small...tiny even...i had delicate hands and short stubby legs...girls laughed at me and called me "munchkin" or even worse..."oomp loompa"...one time i opened my clarinet case in band class and someone had left a note in there...it said..."if you forgot to wipe your tiny weenie ass this morning...smile"
i couldn't help myself and i smiled...the whole class burst out laughing, i was humiliated...
then one day...i read an ad on the the back of a comic book that changed my whole life!



i'm the taller tiny weenie one with the bible (picture taken before i denounced god)

[Beaverhausen]

204. I just saw one of the threads in question

I can't believe how cruel that was.

and people here in this thread acting all innocent and actually saying "I wasn't involved" and "I alerted on mean posts."

really nice.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

205. Good on ya, Skinner, but a couple of things

I saw much of what went on that was covertly directed to that person and brought it to your attention months ago in a PM (it may have been Elad or EarlG but I did see it and act on it because it was just plain old mean)

That said, this isn't high school anymore but the problem is that people live in the past where everything reminds them of high school the minute they get in a group situation.

While I don't go out of my way to alienate anyone in the lounge, I do think people will latch on to this thread and see cliques where there are none and use this thread to justify their perceived victimization even where their own behavior leads to their alienation.

[salin]

228. from the recap i have read... it reminds me of another pileup

that was part of ongoing pileups upon an unpopular Duer who rode the nerves of some other duers. Yes, sometimes folks bring some of it on.... but when we are at our ugliest (we of the lounge) - and thanfully that has been pretty rare in the past three years - it crosses into extreme, intentional - and seemingly gleeful cruelty. And we know that it has happened that one got so drawn into the glee and pleasure of said behavior that they took it off line in a very ugly (and creepy, creepy) way. I hear what you are saying... but maybe if when the situation to which I refer - it got that personal and derogatory - a message like this went up, it wouldn't have spiraled to the point where the "high fives" at the clever cruel blow seemed to validate a certain level of personal animus that empowered someone to really try to mess with the target's ability to support oneself. A mob frenzy and later actions which may have been empowered due to that mob mentality... is much worse, imo, than the inconvenience of periodically having to read someone claiming victimization.

[Ariana Celeste]

209. I'm not a regular or anything,

but I feel I have to say, that while I agree with what you have to say completely....

I think there are some people who *actively* search for a reason to be pissed off. And that doesn't just go for one side. It's everywhere.

I think that what a lot of people don't care to think about, is the fact that every single one of us have been raised differently, have lived under different conditions, have dealt with completely different situations and obstacles in life. And every single one of us have a different idea of what language is offensive, what language is okay. Some people forget that what something means to one person may mean something different to another person. And I think a lot of people are far too quick to take offense to things at times.

I think a lot of people tend to read what isn't there. You can read between the lines when talking to someone in person, when you can hear their tones and whatnot. But you can't do so very easily on a messageboard.

Every single one of us needs to remember that we are all different, and to take everything with a grain of salt. We are all fighting for the same cause here.

Being an outcast and humiliated constantly from kindergarten to the point that I couldn't take it anymore and dropped out of highschool, while having done heavy damage to my psyche, has also taught me to look for good in everyone and look past the little shit, you know? I dunno if this will even be read, but that's just how I feel about the situation. Hopefully it won't be read the wrong way. :).

[fishnfla]

211. Aren't these 2 the ones who wanted DUers under 18 labelled or banished?

because they could not handle debating teenagers? They're the same ones who ran Trumad off, arent they?

Pretty ironic, using the JR high thing.

[Bouncy Ball]

214. Yes

there is a LOT of anti-under 18 feeling from one person. A lot of ugliness and hatefulness toward anyone here under 18. It was so insulting they were the first person I ever put on ignore. I'm not under 18, but the nasty comments about under 18 DUers were just going on and on, even with hitting alert.

[JohnKleeb]

216. labeled as being under 18

and it really outraged a lot of us, many of us who had paid no attention to those two before, like I knew who they were but that was all but when they did that, I got angry and their continued condescendation of people under the age of 18 just because we are under 18, they refered to some of us as children, I admit I am still young but I am not a "children" either.

[Bouncy Ball]

220. Said worse than that.

It was said anyone under 18 didn't have the RIGHT to be debating here, because they don't even know enough (in other words, they're ignorant).

Etc etc. It was all really quite disgusting.

It's clever though--stir up shit by insulting people, then anytime anyone says anything you don't like, claim they are insulting you and grab victim status.

NOTE: I am NOT defending or justifying in ANY way what provoked this thread. I did not see it, have only been told. THAT was very wrong.

I think everyone should step back and see the whole picture here.

[JohnKleeb]

225. Yes I think I saw that

They would say it was under 18 people defending people they disliked like Woody Allen but all the people in question defending Allen were adults, I have never seen a Woody Allen directed film, I know the sterotyped Woody Allen better than Woody himself truth be told. I will defend myself if provoked, its that simple, I wont go after things for things like weight but if you're gonna be a jerk, I will go after you.

[Ariana Celeste]

226. "I think everyone should step back and see the whole picture here."

Spot the hell on.

[the Princess]

230. OK for the record and once and for all

It was a suggestion that people under 18 have a special Avatar or logo in their posts so we would know if we were debating an adult or not. It because as an adult we thought getting into a heated debate with a child was not something we wanted to do.

Now what happened has been so obscured by what some of you wnated it to be about - we are villanized forever. And why can't you just drop it. The suggestion was made - the Mods said No - end of story.

If you want to carry that around forever - that's your choice - but stop lying about what really happened.

And as for *running off* Trumad - I don't even recall who this is and if he/she left they did so of their own free will.

I still think knowing who is 18 or under is a very good idea.

And didn't Skinner just ask all of us to leave what happened in the past - in the past ??

[ElsewheresDaughter]

212. i love you skinner

[EvolvedChimp]

232. Well maybe

That stuttering junior high student is now a DU member. Maybe he heard your post. It's nice to think that at least. Your a good person Skinner. Thanks for the post.

[Skinner]

234. I guess this was a mistake.

This is what happens when an administrator speaks from the heart, rather than spending a day and a half carefully measuring every word to make certain that nobody could possibly misunderstand or take offense.

Apparently my post was not clear. Or, it was clear to some people but not to the people who I thought needed to hear it. I'm not really surprised that some people read it as a broad-brush attack on everyone in the lounge. I am glad that a few people understood that it was more of a "if the shoe fits" kind of thing.

I know many people are reading this entirely in the context of CO Liberal and the Princess, and I guess that is to be expected, considering the timing. But the point I was trying to make was much bigger than that.

I do not defend the behavior of CO Liberal or the Princess here in the Lounge. This is none of your business, but I sent them both nastygrams yesterday morning telling them that they needed to change their attitude and figure out how to get along with other people. I suspect that is the reason why they finally chose to leave this place -- because I basically told them that people did not like them for a reason.

But I guess that I feel like there is a limit to what any person "deserves." I guess I draw the line at posting cartoon of a boy riding a whale, and then watching as a dozen people all yuck it up. Get it? He's a dude riding a whale.

So yes, that was the last straw. But that wasn't the only straw. I'm a liberal, and it bothers me to see large groups of people picking on smaller groups of people. And it's rich to see the larger group all claiming victimization at the hands of two people. I guess maybe you really believe it. Except, of course, when I asked some of you about it last week you all insisted that everything was fine.

But whatever. I'm going home now.

ON EDIT: I thought, in context, that it was clear that my use of the word "faggy" was putting words in the mouth of the cool kids in school and showing how they feel about all of us who did not live up their view of what it means to be male. I apologize if that was not clear.