I'm ready to try to understand hip-hop music. Give me some clues.

[Ron Green]

I heard yet another feature this morning on NPR about hip-hop. I know that, as with any sort of music, there's got to be lots of pop schlock in it along with the real stuff. The problem for me is that I can't tell the difference, and I don't know what to listen for. Harmonically it's doing nothing, melodically it's minimal, and although there are many rhythmic elements, it all seems to be done by machine, rather than by anyone keeping time. The human element is surely in the words, although on the continuum of poetry to doggerel much of what I can understand is nearer the doggerel end. Is it just the "message of the street," with no pretensions toward art, or are there important elements of quality that people don't yet hear, such as in Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring?"

Will someone who is truly knowledgeable about this please point me toward the good stuff? And also let me know what the crap is, so I can listen to both and learn the difference?

Here's some stuff I consider good music, in no particular order:

Mozart
The Blue Sky Boys
Miles Davis Quintet
Lefty Frizzell
Little Walter
Art Tatum


Here's some stuff I consider crap, again in no order:

Madonna
The Archies
Guy Lombardo
Shania Twain
Yanni/John Tesh/Zamfir
Grand Funk Railroad

I can tell you what differentiates the good from the bad in these lists, according to my tastes. I'm open-minded and I know about music, but I don't know about hip-hop, and if I'm going to figure this out I need some guidance.

[ugarte]

1. Start with Public Enemy

If you don't like them, you probably won't like any of the stuff that came later.

[Teaser]

2. Bass for your face...

Bring tha Noize.

[Ron Green]

4. Are those cuts, or albums?

[Teaser]

53. Lyrics...

sorry. Try: "Fear of a black planet","It takes a nation of millions to hold us back","Apocalypse 91, the Enemy Strikes Black"

[Ron Green]

3. Thanks. Should I just get their earliest album, and listen from the top?

[ugarte]

9. "It Takes A Nation of Millions" or "Yo Bum Rush the Show"

or "Fear of a Black Planet"...it's all good.

[flvegan]

5. "Paul's Boutique" by the Beastie Boys

The sampling becomes the music.

[ghostsofgiants]

6. The Roots, Mos Def, Common, K-os, Sweatshop Union, Blackalicious...

Talib Kweli, Aesop Rock, Mr. Lif, Atmosphere, Busdriver, Dead Prez, Hieroglyphics, Deltron 3030, Dr. Octagon, Kool Kieth, MF Doom, Madvillain, Edan, Eyedea, El-P, Sage Francis, Buck 65, Murs...I could probably name lots more, but those are a bunch of my favourites.

[MrScorpio]

18. You just named a good part of my collection

Add Yesterday's New Quintet, Dwele, Slum Village, Root Manuva, Mos Def, Guru, Herbaliser and Biz Markee and we'll be talkin'!

[ghostsofgiants]

35. Mos Def was mentioned...

Youu've got good taste dude. Like I said, there's a lot more I couldn't think of, haha.

[frylock]

44. i love ynq..

the "Stevie" LP is just brilliant.

[Seabiscuit]

59. I must not listen to hip-hop because I don't recognize anyone on that list

Or... I wouldn't know it if heard it.

[mark414]

60. there is a lot more out there than just the crap on the radio

like any genre, hip hop has its share of great and terrible artists

as far as the public consciousness is concerned, unfortunately, almost everything in the mainstream eye right now, is utter crap

[Seabiscuit]

61. I don't listen to any radio stations that play hip-hop anyway.

And the only time I listen to the radio is in the car, and that's only about 5% of my driving time.

[MrScorpio]

7. Hip Hop is more than just rap music, it's a lifestyle

Here's a good place to get a feel for it
http://www.daveyd.com/

[ghostsofgiants]

10. What are those four elements again?

Ice, guns, hoes and money?

Are rims the fifth element?

(I used to love H.E.R.)

[ugarte]

15. There's no bizness like 'ho bizness

nt

[mark414]

25. i thought the 5th was

gold fronts

:shrug:

[ghostsofgiants]

36. The fith element is always controversial

[democracyindanger]

8. Start with A Tribe Called Quest

The Low End Theory album. Uses a lot of jazz. Even recorded one track with Ron Carter.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

11. It began as counter culture music

To get to the ROOTS of rap, listen to Gil Scott Heron, Grandmaster Flash (especially THE MESSAGE), and Chuck D or Public Enemy...from there..go to some current stuff like Michael Franti...even the ICED T stuff is demonstrative of a type of life, and ICE Cube

Rap is to current music what THE BLUES are to old Americana...that's why Eminem is a decent rapper..he tapped into the real feel of it.

Click on O MY God here:

http://www.spearheadvibrations.com/sounds.html

[ghostsofgiants]

13. Oh, I forgot about Spearhead in my post

Good call.

[frylock]

46. don't forget the disposable heroes of hiphoprisy..

great social commentary in their "Greatest Luxury" LP.

[mark414]

48. that album

is CRIMINALLY slept on

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

55. Yep, Television is the drug of the Nation is a masterpiece

[Ron Green]

12. OK, this is great. I've got a place to start. Now, what is the crap?

I need to know what the "pop" stuff is, you know, just made to sell records. I want to hear some of that so I can start to get a feel for what is real.

[ghostsofgiants]

16. G-Unit, Murda Inc. affiliated stuff, most Rocafella stuff, Nelly...

Snoop Dogg (especially his new stuff...utter garbage)...Can't think of much more, since I try to avoid that stuff like the plague.

[Ron Green]

19. Thanks for sticking your neck out on that... I wonder if it's true that

popularity in hip-hop music equals lower quality, or that easy access means "watered down."

[mark414]

27. that has only been true in the last 5 or 10 years

what used to be some of the biggest artists in hip hop are some of the best (particularly around the late 80's and early 90's when hip hop creativity exploded and gave us some of the most classic albums and artists ever)

with few exceptions, if they are on the charts today, they probably aren't very good

[progmom]

14. You like jazz, so you might like some hip hop that incoporates jazz

[frylock]

47. where's the us3?

:shrug:

[MrScorpio]

49. I'm the US3 Kang

I've got just about all their shit

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

56. Great choices...US3 is one of my fav's

[Brotherjohn]

17. Since you like Miles Davis... start with Digable Planets.

They take jazz hooks and mix them with their smooth, politically conscious raps (or rather, they did, in the 90s).

Some people accused them of ripping off jazz artists. But really, I think they were sampling in such a way to create something totally new, while at the same time fostering an appreciation of many jazz greats in the younger set.

Besides, their raps were clever and melodic. And just because the music may be (at least partially) borrowed in most rap, that doesn't mean it's not art. Poetry is art, and it's just somebody speaking. Adding a background of music does not suddenly make it "not art". There can be good poetry and bad poetry, good pop music and bad, good rap and bad (like with any music, most on the radio is bad).

And for the record, I think the DPs always gave credit (AND paid royalties) to the jazz artists they sampled from.

[MrScorpio]

21. I second the Digables

Just being in the same room with a D.P. CD raises your I.Q. by at least 20 points.

That's a fact, Jack!

[bbernardini]

20. I think it really depends on your taste in interaction of rhythm and voice

Like the other poster said, Public Enemy is a good place to start. What you need to understand is that a lot of what you say is "done by machine" isn't necessarily done by machine (exclusively, anyway). A lot of the backing tracks are done in real time by somebody using turntables. (Whether or not the turntable is a valid musical instrument is another argument entirely.) I've seen some of these people in action, and what they're doing is kind of a real-time offshoot of musique concrete.

Alternately, the backing tracks might be pieced together from any number of sources with a computer and/or sequencer. A lot of this stuff is FAR more complex than most people realize.

Then there's the voice. Some of the folks rhyming on top just try to cram as many words as they can into a small space. Others, though, have a true sense of flow, and end up creating some very interesting polyrhythms and syncopation.

[Ron Green]

23. Thanks for this post. The use of the turntable as a musical instrument

is, I realize, a point of contention, and brings technology into the conversation: At what point does a musical experience cease to be human and organic, and start to be a corporate electronic creation? This discussion has been going on since the electric guitar, or even valves on a horn.

[Brotherjohn]

30. The thing about the turntable, though, is it is LESS a corporate...

... creation than some overproduced "pop" song. At least in the original rappers, and many that arise from the street today.

With computers, this technology has only further enabled artists without access to expensive studio equipment to create "professional" sounding music.

Some time ago, I wrote a music column for a local weekly. I just dug up my old columns, and here's what I had to say on the subject:

"Some deride Electronica, and Rap as well, for requiring little of what we traditionally consider to be musical talent: i.e. the ability to make an instrument or one’s voice make just the right sound. Some also bash them for the admittedly heavy reliance on “borrowing” from existing music.

But sampling technology is being used in progressively more complex and creative ways, often leading to something truly original...

Perhaps part of music’s evolution entails a change in traditional concepts of musical talent. The talent of a good DJ such as Fatboy Slim lies not in the ability to play an instrument well, but in the ability to bring together various elements in a complicated mélange of music. Forgive my musical heresy, but Bach and Beethoven weren’t known for playing piano or viola or oboe. They were known for composing symphonies played by various individual artists. Their real musical talent resided in their heads, not in their hands."

[mark414]

33. oh damn i like that last part

"Forgive my musical heresy, but Bach and Beethoven weren’t known for playing piano or viola or oboe. They were known for composing symphonies played by various individual artists. Their real musical talent resided in their heads, not in their hands."

i'm going to have to save that...well done

[MrScorpio]

22. Digable Planets on Tour

Digable Planets Reunite & Tour

What's happenin' Butterfly, what's happenin'? Digable Planets have reunited! Saying I'm really excited about this is an understatement. After like 10 years off, Digable Planets are touring. They'll be at Irving Plaza on July 7th, and they're also playing Lollapalooza in Chicago. Tickets for the NY show are not on sale yet. More tour dates below. MTV has the story.

Tue 06/07/05 Montreal, QC La Tulipe
Wed 06/08/05 Toronto, ON Phoenix Concert Theatre
Thu 06/09/05 Cleveland, OH Agora Theatre
Fri 06/10/05 Milwaukee, WI The Rave / Eagles Club
Sat 06/11/05 Minneapolis, MN First Avenue
Mon 06/13/05 Boulder, CO Fox Theatre
Tue 06/14/05 Park City, UT Harry O's
Thu 06/16/05 Vancouver, BC Commodore Ballroom
Fri 06/17/05 Portland, OR Berbati's Pan
Sun 06/19/05 San Francisco, CA DNA Lounge
Mon 06/20/05 West Hollywood, CA House Of Blues
Tue 06/21/05 Anaheim, CA House Of Blues
Wed 06/22/05 San Francisco, CA The Independent
Thu 06/23/05 Sacramento, CA Empire
Fri 06/24/05 Solana Beach, CA Belly Up Tavern
Sat 06/25/05 Tempe, AZ The Clubhouse
Mon 06/27/05 Austin, TX La Zona Rosa
Wed 07/06/05 Washington, DC 9:30 Club
Thu 07/07/05 New York, NY Irving Plaza
Sat 01/07/06 Fort Lauderdale, FL Jam Cruise
Sun 01/08/06 Fort Lauderdale, FL Jam Cruise
Mon 01/09/06 Fort Lauderdale, FL Jam Cruise
Tue 01/10/06 Fort Lauderdale, FL Jam Cruise
Wed 01/11/06 Fort Lauderdale, FL Jam Cruise
Thu 01/12/06 Fort Lauderdale, FL Jam Cruise
Fri 01/13/06 Fort Lauderdale, FL Jam Cruise

http://www.brooklynvegan.com/archives/2005/04/digable_planets.html

[Brotherjohn]

24. Wow! The FL Jam Cruise... now THAT's a cruise i'd take! (nt)

[LynneSin]

26. I saw a great quote about Hip-Hop vs. Rap in the movie "Brown Sugar"

Rap is all the crap you hear on the radio; whereas Hip-Hop is the real talent.

Some other albums I might recommend:

Lauryn Hill - Miseducation of Lauryn Hill
De La Soul - 3 Feet High and Rising
Eminem - The Marshall Mathers LP
Snoopy Doggy - Doggystyle
QUeen Latifah - All Hail the Queen
NWA - Straight out of Compton
Public Enemy - Fear of a Black Nation (rent "Do the RIght Thing" - that's what got me interested in the music)
Just about anything from Outkast!

That's just a good start. It's still "rap" but there's just a stylization to these artists that make them stand out over much of what is out there today. And yes, I own all of those albums!

[mark414]

28. i applaud you

for being so open minded about this

the DU hip hop heads are a friendly bunch...check out that hip hop group that i sent you in the PM and feel free to ask me whatever you want whenever you want

[HughBeaumont]

29. Avoid most MSHH made after 1994.

Go after pretty much anything made prior to that year.

On one of those I love the 90s shows on Vh1, one woman said on the 1993 show "Thank GOD for Dre and Snoop, because if they hadn't come along, we'd be stuck with Grunge!". Riiiiiight, because being stuck with 50 million bling/bitches/40s-sporting Dre/Snoop/Tupac clones since The Chronic is SO much better.

[MrScorpio]

31. 1985-1995: The golden age of Hip Hop

It was never that good again

[LynneSin]

32. There are a few exceptions but in general that's true

I'm starting to be a fan of Eminen and Outkast. BUt when I see some idiot on MTV rap to the fact that he has diamonds all over his mouth (ice on his grill) then I feel sorry for what has become of hip-hop today

[Ron Green]

34. Man, that's really interesting; just as with jazz and country music,

and even rock and roll, there has been a shape to the development and fall of the music. As an outsider, I just assumed that hip-hop, being the default "pop" style (it's playing behind the commercials, after all), was still in its evolution.

I wonder what the Next Big Thing is?

[MrScorpio]

38. If you want hear some of the best of today's hip hop, go international

Some of the best stuff today that hawks back to the classic days are coming out of Europe and Japan.

A lot of my stuff is coming from either off-shore or Philly (Okay Player) these days

[frylock]

51. let's give a little cred to our brothers from canada as well..

there's some great shit coming out of the WPG and Hali.

http://www.peanutsandcorn.com/

[MrScorpio]

52. If I were back home home in Detroit, I know that I'd know this

Good lookin' oot

[Bridget Burke]

37. For some background on a regional Hip-Hop phenomenon....

Check out John Nova Lomax's account of Latino rap music here in Houston.

www.houstonpress.com/issues/2003-12-04/news/feature_1.html

He reviews regional styles & the history of the movement, along with local developments. Good, literate commentary that explained a lot to this middle-aged white chick.

Of course, the Lomaxes have been explaining music for four generations now....

[MirrorAshes]

39. Del The Funky Homosapien, Digable Planets, Tribe Called Quest

some of the most intelligent and musical hip-hop out there...

[MissMillie]

40. You're not supposed to understand it

You're supposed to dance to it.

[Ron Green]

43. That's a good point. In the later days of the Swing era, when there were

hundreds of 15-piece bands playing live all over the country, artists who were trying to grow musically were frustrated by the "jitterbugs," who just wanted to dance. Others quit the business because the pop trend moved away from bands and toward singers and personalities. Real jazzers, of course, moved into bebop and other small-group forms.

I think my overall biggest question is: Can anything ever be popular and good at the same time, other than by brief accident?

[MrScorpio]

45. That's a rare combination

But during the Golden Age it was pretty damn close.

I've got tapes and tapes that prove it to me

[MrScorpio]

41. Don't discount the influence of Donald Byrd's music on hip hop

His Mizell Brothers produced albums provided much of the inspiration for some the best cuts evah!

[Tektonik]

42. Hip hop is for lyrics fans or dance fans and

approach the genre in one of the two ways. I myself enjoy mainstream hip hop since it has very nice bass and synth elements and the lyrics are generally very funny. I particularly like the producers that work on artists from Aftermath records (Dr. Dre's label). Also I enjoy Tupac very very much; he's the only artist who I listen to regularly to enjoy rap lyrics, well Tupac and NWA.


PS Another thing is, the West Coast rules the East ALWAYS.

[taught_me_patience]

50. Drink some beers

turn the volume up and start dancing:

Start with some of the classics:
Notorious BIG
Tu Pac
Mace

and move to some of the good new stuff:
Jay-Z
Naz
Snoop Dogg


Stay Away from:
Puff Daddy
50 Cent

:puke:

[Tektonik]

54. 50 Cent is a good pop rap star

He always has good beats behind his music that make it enjoyable, and songs like 'Candy Shop' are hilarious.

[taught_me_patience]

57. Ok he's not that bad

but if you listen to Tu Pac first then listen to 50 cent, you'll be sourly disappointed.

[Ron Green]

58. Thanks to everybody for all this good info. It's gonna take some time

for me to work my way through it, but I've got some solid starting places now.

[Madrone]

62. The Roots : Come Alive

Nice album to check out - totally live, and not machine (synth) driven. There's a real BAND there.

It's one I used to start teaching my boss some hip-hop appreciation - he loved it. And he's a 50 year old big burly mountain man of a white guy with little to no diversity in his background.