Are you an introvert? Do you find society is discriminating against you?

[valis]

I would like to discuss this issue and hearing from all of you. We keep hearing about various forms of discrimination, but not much about this type. Basically, I'm an introvert, which means that I tend to think a lot before I speak, that I tend to be very sensitive and attentive to what happens inside and outside myself, that I think about how what I do may affect other people, that I get overwhelmed in the presence of strong stimulation (be it chemical or sensorial/environmental), and many more related things. If you are one, you know what I'm talking about.

So, do you feel like society constantly underestimate you? That you have to work twice as hard to achieve the same level of recognition with your bosses, and so on... Obviously, it's everywhere in the silly US culture, being introvert is considered a bit of a mental problem of some sort... The folks who win at the various reality TV shows are general extroverted jerks...

What's your experience??

[bertha katzenengel]

1. I am painfully introverted.

I work with the world as it is. I feel no sense of discrimination whatsoever. Yeah, it sucks to be shy. It sucks to be "slow" -- to be expected to have rapid-fire response to everything around me. But I just deal. I have for forty years. Being introverted is my problem, not anyone else's. :shrug:

[valis]

3. But, you see, males would say that being "female" is a problem...

Being introverted is not a problem. Like being a female or being a minority is not a "problem".

[bertha katzenengel]

5. Maybe I'm missing your point, valis.

Hell yes, being introverted is a problem. It is MY problem, though. In your OP you asked if the introverted felt discriminated against because of the way the world is. Well, I answered: No, I don't, because MY introversion isn't the WORLD's problem. It's MINE.

[valis]

7. Ok, my reply is that society would like you to think it is YOUR problem...

The same way in which it would like to think that women are inferior to men for certain jobs... Simply because men have taken control of certain positions and contribute to spreading this idea. Similarly, extroverts tend to be in position of power and contribute to spreading to the notion that introverts have a "problem". Perhaps you've interiorized that view.
I think introverts have complementary things to contribute, often better quality ideas and insights. I don't see that being recognized.

[bertha katzenengel]

84. Everyone has something to contribute -- not just us introverts -- and MANY

peoples' potential or actual contributions are not recognized.

You're not looking for protected class status, are you? ;) Kidding.

[valis]

118. Hmmm, not really protected class status... But I think there are enough

introverts around who are very smart and competent but nonetheless they are struggling... If they all realize what is going on, the specific dynamics, perhaps it would be possible to define a set of very concrete issues that can be addressed.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

2. I am generally an introvert.

I am also below 6' in height and I ain't the prettiest belle at the ball. It is my objective experience that all these factors have worked against me in any situation where there was a chance for advancement in my field. I have seen people with little in the way of objective ability get fast-tracked and patronized up the ladder on the basis of a great line of bullshit, height and good bleached teeth. In many places, including in the martial arts.

It has led me to the unshakable belief that at the core of things, we are a remarkably shallow people. Appearances mean everything. Style means everything. Substance is immaterial.

[valis]

4. What field are you in?

[Mutley]

6. Horribly so.

But really not as bad as I used to be. In high school I could not talk to ANYONE! I was super loner extroidanaire (how do you spell that again?). I would skip school just so I didn't have to look anyone in the eye. I've been working on it though.

[phaseolus]

8. Yes, and no

Luckily, or more likely by choice, I'm in a job that suits my personality. I go to work on engineering and control problems, arrive at a solution, and go on to the next task. The satisfaction is from fixing things -- I don't need pats on the head to keep me going.

Downside is my personality doesn't lend itself to managing others, which hurts my earning potential. (I HATE supervisory/managerial tasks...)

My cheapskate boss who pegs raises at the metro area's income growth kind of hurts my earning potential too -- I'm gonna have a looooong talk with him this fall. My compensation should have more to do with my worth in the marketplace than with what I was worth in 1998 plus 3% per year...

[deutsey]

53. I'm the same way

I also really hate how managerial positions seem to be the only means of "success," if you know what I mean. I just wish I could continue to be promoted into new levels of what I excel in instead of being forced into roles that really run counter to who I am.

[sundog]

9. sometimes intro, sometimes extro

I'm flexible, depending on my mood & the situation :7

I find sometimes when you go intro, people will say, "what's wrong with so & so" ... um, actually nothing... just don't feel like talking bullshit is all ;)

[belladonna]

113. I was going to say the same thing

I can be extremely extroverted if I'm in the right mood, and I'm generally that way at work and when I'm out and about, among people. But I go through these phases where I stay home and away from everyone, including my family... just become a total loner for awhile. :shrug:

[valis]

114. You are in good company bd!

:D

[coloradodem2005]

10. Introverted.

I feel discriminated sometimes in that I cannot seem to find jobs that suit me. It also makes it harder for me to form connections with people.

[SarahB]

11. I'm a social introvert...

Sounds paradoxical, but when you understand what introversion means, it's not. I need time alone to decompress. Too many people overwhelm and drain me, but on the other hand, I'm not at all shy and can easily relate to people. I know how to make my mark in the workplace, but the silly, inane chatter of people gets on my nerves and I barely participate in that stuff (just enough to be polite). I'm much better one to one than in big groups.

[valis]

12. Exactly right... Many times, deals and opportunities are discussed

over a beer during inane chatter and gossip... If you don't do it you are not considerd part of the inner club, so to speak...

[SarahB]

19. I guess I'm saying I can "fake it" when I have to.

Just enough to get by I suppose. My job's different though. A lot really is graded on merit and a work ethic.

[bettyellen]

27. i'm not an introvert (anymore) but i don't like the "inane chatter"

or participate in it anymore than you do. i just can't pretend i like people more than i do, and if my career suffers, so be it. i have better things to do with my time than kissing the bosses ass. i don't see how i can blame my boss for this. i'd love to, but every job has cronyism and favoritism. i have to accept that.
if you can't participate in meetings fully, it's a handicap. maybe find a line of work with less interaction? all of us have weakness we have to work with, and no we can't just call it discrimination if it works against us. that's just inane.
but comparing this to discrimination against women is so wrong, i don't know where to begin.

[mark414]

13. i wouldn't say that that's discrimination...

just an unfortunate state of being

[valis]

15. You mean, like the way segregation was in the South?

Or the way widespread sexism prevents great women from reaching the highest positions?...

[mark414]

16. are you really comparing

being introverted with being a woman or being black?

:wtf:

if that wasn't so stupid i would laugh, and i'm an introvert

[valis]

17. Yes, it's a fair comparison.

If anything, it's more subtle and insidious because it is not as visible. In fact, it could be that much of the discrimination of women is due to them being more introverted than men (not sure if this is true, but it could be).

[mark414]

23. ok...well

if you can show me patterns of discrimination among introverts, such as making less money, the children of introverts being more likely to attend poor schools, or the rate of incarceration of introverts is higher than that of extroverts, than i will believe you.

i am an introvert; i don't like people and i'm uncomfortable around large groups of people, and i certainly prefer to spend time alone than with anyone else.

but to call it discrimination is a slap in the face to people who really do face discrimination. everyone's gotta have a 'poor me' complex and try to blame other people for their problems. in some cases there is legitimate reason for that; women and racial minorities for example, that is real discrimination.

but to call someone who is shy, a victim of discrimination is ridiculous and laughable.

[valis]

24. "Introvert" is not just being "shy" and it's not always associated with it

It's a way of thinking, behaving and approaching problems... There are no studies about this, the way it impacts your salary etc, but anybody who's attentive would have noticed the pattern... It's coming though, judging by the number of people who attend the meetings on this topic...

[Dervill Crow]

35. Maybe this counts as a pattern.

I have applied for supervisory positions three times, and each of those times I have been the second choice. When we did the Myers-Briggs test at work I found I'm an ISTJ, I being for "introvert," of course. The three department supervisors and the department manager are all ESTJs, which seems to me to be a pretty crazy coincidence. I have at least equal qualifications and years of experience as those women, and I'm less obese, so if it's weight discrimination it's that I'm not chubby enough. I do quality assurance and train new hires, so I'm in as high a position as I can go without directly supervising people. I communicate well enough at work, because that's my turf and I feel comfortable, but I suck in social situations or at small talk, and I really believe there is a perception that I'm not quite as smart as those who have the gift of gab.

[valis]

36. You should fake the Myers-Briggs test next time...

If you can... But I bet that more and more studies will document this type of pattern. Also, it will become clear that it is a form of discrimination that has NOTHING to do with how one would perform on the job. If anything, people who don't waste time chatting about nothing get more work done and keep the insidious gossip mill dry.

[Zuni]

42. too many people want to blame all of lifes problems on others, Mark

your quote--but to call someone who is shy, a victim of discrimination is ridiculous and laughable---is right on target. This guy has the single dumbest claim to be an oppressed minority anywhere in the world full of oppressed minorities

[valis]

44. Nice baiting... Won't work... Women are oppressed... And so are introverts

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mark414]

51. so then answer me this

when someone is mean to you, do you stop and think "well maybe it is because i'm an introvert?"

if you step onto a city bus, do people clutch their bags tight or move to a different seat because they don't want to sit next a "dirty introvert?"

if you achieve some great accomplishment, do people call you a credit to all introverts?

has someone ever told you that you can't sit at a lunch counter because you are an introvert?

have you ever compared your salary with someone who does the exact same work as you, only to find that you make less because you are an introvert?

have you ever gone to a different town, only to have old white men threaten you to leave because "we don't like your introverted kind around here?"

have you ever been pulled over on a charge of DWI (driving while introverted?)

have you ever had a security guard follow you around a store solely because you are an introvert?

have you ever had a bunch of piggish men think it's ok to grab your ass whether you like it or not because you're an introvert?

have you ever heard that dr. dre song, introverts ain't shit but hoes and tricks?

are you upset by the disproportionate numbers of introverts in higher education?

and how on earth did you ever find the strength to stand up to firehoses and police dogs when all you wanted was the right for introverts to vote?

yer full of shit dude

[Lorien]

59. Lol!

well put. I never knew that I was charged more for haircuts, underwear, dry cleaning and toiletries because I was an introvert! ;-)

I've known many people who overcame their introverted natures, but it's pretty hard to overcome being black, hispanic, and/or female.

[mark414]

64. and how can i forget

the mass genocide of introverted people that came about because of colonial american's idea of manifest destiny?

won't someone please think of the introverts?!?!?!?!? :cry:

[valis]

67. Ok, you made your sarcastic point and we all laughed.

[mark414]

110. okay...this is getting out of hand

you and i are the same. i am painfully introverted and i am not just saying that for the sake of trying to get you to understand me.

it is tremendously difficult to get me out of my shell. being introverted has effected me in more ways than i care to get into, not like i really have the time to do so anyways. why else would i spend so much time on this website if i had no problem getting up and going out there into the world?

yes, introversion is certainly a hindrance in this world because of the way our society functions, but it is in no way a form of oppression or discrimination.

my sarcastic comments were made to point out just how ridiculous your argument is. people can overcome being shy. women cannot overcome being women. black people cannot overcome being black. there are not and never were laws preventing introverted people from getting ahead in this world. introverted people have never been forced to sit in the back of the bus. introverted people have never had to march in the streets for the right to vote. i don't need to continue because i've already made those points pretty clearly.

what you are talking about is something that hinders you. there is a very real and very tangible difference between a hindrance and oppression. oppression is disgusting and vulgar and foul and evil and you get the picture. a hindrance is something that just makes you have to work a little bit harder. i am ridiculously skinny and i have a high metabolism and it is hard for me to gain weight. that is a hindrance. i have to work harder than the average person in order for me to obtain an average weight. i may not like it but i accept it.

life cannot be perfect for everyone and all of us were not "blessed" with skills that are deemed desirable in our society. some of us have to work a little harder.

you are trying to draw comparisons where none exist, and every single point you are trying to make is completely wrong, fallacious, and illogical.

[valis]

111. Ok, thanks for clarifying, but I disagree.

Think about the current furor at Harvard, because it is clear that women still have a very hard time getting tenured faculty positions, compared to men (the same is true at other powerful Universities). You must have read something in the newspapers. I'm here in Boston, and I'm very close to it and have been on various task forces related to it. There are NO explicit laws against women, obviously. Yet, there are many biases against them, at all levels. Not necessarily explicit biases (although in some cases they are) but rather subtle biases and assumptions that work against them, no matter how much they try.
Part of the problem is that academia (like many other institutions) was set up in a certain way, with certain demands, to fit white males and their life style: wifey takes care of business at home, so they can spend 24/7 working or with their buddies. It's NOT that women are not as smart, it's just that they are not as efficient in the artificial environment set up by white males in the past.
What I'm trying to say is that things are not at all black-and-white when you start looking into them. I see the introversion issue as a real personality type issue. It's particularly insidious because it is still difficult to quantify. Perfectly capable individuals are not treated farily, based on personality attributes that have nothing to do with job performance (but all to do with superficial biases).

[mark414]

112. ok im just going to say it

you're a fucking idiot

[valis]

65. Totally irrelevant, I'm afraid. Some women overcome their being

women and become males, functionally, and behaviorally. Similarly, Michael Jackson did a pretty good job at overcoming being black. The point is that people should now have to overcome anything when the way they are is just fine if it were not for stigma created by society.

[Lorien]

72. Michael Jackson never "overcame" being black

nd as for the "stigma" (and I'd hardly call it that) go to a science fiction convention. Or a SCA event. There's societies within society where introverts are the norm and are entirely accepted.

I look at it this way; if I'm friendly and extend myself to others, they will usually respond in kind. If I sit at home and dwell on my unhappiness as an introvert, I won't get many phone calls. It's cause and effect, not "discrimination". If you have turrets (sp?) and you run around shouting obscenities at people all day, they don't know that you have a medical condition, they only know that you called them an asshole and that didn't make them feel good. Are they being discriminated against because the people they shouted at think that they're jerks? Cause and effect-something you have direct control over. It's very different from racial and gender discrimination .

An entirely egalitarian society will never exist. White men, beautiful people, the wealthy, and those that are friendly and outgoing will always be treated better than the majority-but of all those conditions, an outgoing, friendly disposition is the easiest to aquire.

[valis]

106. Why will white men always be treated better?

That is just the way it is NOW... And less so each day... As I said before, I'm not talking about people with a mental disorder... And I don't care about having friends... I'm mostly talking about business... People who do their job well and are appreciated or paid systematically less than other people with similar or lesser qualifications based on irrelevant and arbitrary attributes...

[Zuni]

62. well, the cops did beat me real good for being shy sometimes

but I learned my lesson. :evilgrin:

[mark414]

63. have you talked to the NAAIP lawyers yet?

(National Association for the Advancement of Introverted People)?

you might have a solid case...

[valis]

66. Not yet, it's being formed as we speak.

[mark414]

68. what about my other questions?

or did you realize just how convoluted and wrong your pity party is?

[valis]

69. What questions? You made empty sarcastic remarks...

[Lorien]

57. Well, that explains why my post was ignored. n/t

[Zuni]

40. That is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard

Your whole argument is garbage---you are complaining of people judging you by the way you act!

You are not oppressed because you are introverted---that is your way of doing things---ie it is your fault and you can cure it. I am naturally shy but sometimes I have to speak up in order to do what I need

[valis]

41. Yeah, I see, that's why women are having trouble getting tenured jobs

at Universities, huh? It's all their fault... Good argument...

[Zuni]

43. I wasn't talking about women. I was talking about your BS argument

don't twist what I said. I said being shy is not being oppressed, period.

[valis]

45. Same argument. Women are born that way. Introverts too.

And society is discriminating against them simply because a certain type of people are in power (be they men or dumb extroverts).

[Zuni]

46. that is beyond asinine

your argument is lame. Quit while you are ahead.

being oppressed is not the same as you not doing shit with your life and blaming it on everyone else.

I take anxiety medication nightly, but I am not blaming my anxiety on anyone but my own genetic dispositions and personality flaws.

YOU are not an oppressed person. From what it sounds like, introversion is not the only personality issue you have to deal with

[valis]

48. I'm not talking about people with mental problems

I'm doing plenty with my life, but see many introverts who are not being treated fairly. I don't expect you to understand, and I don't care.

[tigereye]

102. I think your question is an interesting one

but it would be very difficult to define introversion succinctly enough and/or to find the actual causes for it, to have it designated as a class of individuals needing protection. And there would be many,many questions about whether this is generally a way that people are born or are some behaviors ( or lack of introversion) learned or a combination of those factors ( like most behaviors.) :)

There are many aspects to "introversion" - you could think of it as related to social anxiety, needing to develop more social skills, specific temperament, etc, but I agree that it probably does hold some folks back at work and in other settings. Folks with Austism Spectrum Disorders would probably be more readily able to make this argument for protection than those who are "introverted," I suspect.

It might make more sense to think about ways to increase one's ability to function in the work place and to increase one's options. It does seem rather unfair to deny people positions based only on a Meyers Briggs Inventory, though.

I was very shy as a child, but I have become fairly extroverted as an adult. Not sure how that happened. Thanks for raising an interesting question.

[valis]

108. Thanks for providing meaningful input!

I agree, it's complicated, but I'm convinced there is some core to the issue. Perhaps we don't have the tools to quantify it yet, i.e., we lack the necessary biological and cognitive tests to characterize precisely this group of people. But for this kind of things, awareness increases very slowly. So far, perhaps the concept of Highly Sensitive Person (as mentioned later in this thread) is the one I prefer, when talking about this.

[Nikia]

50. See my comments about society and my class participation

Although I could work more on being assertive, which is neither scaraficing one's own rights or trampling upon another's rights, I do not value extroversion over introversion. I do not value the extroversion which places quantity above quality, which is agressive to the detriment of others, or which is dishonest. I do not aspire to that, even though American society rewards such people.
There are both extroverts and introverts. Should children that have 2 or 3 good friends be told that they are worth less than the popular children because they do not have a lot of friends? In the competitive employment market, should we automatically hire the more extroverted scientist or engineer? Should we pay the manager more than employees who are developing products for the company? As a society, should we be encouraging the break down of long term relationsips, forcing people to make new relationships every day?
If this country becomes truly Facists, is there really anything wrong with us if we, who are not inclined to be followers of Facism, do not want to cure our inclination?

[Lorien]

55. Where is society forcing the break down of

long term relationships? I'm an introvert and I have friendships that have continued for over 20 and 30 years. No one has ever forced me not to call, write or visit the people I've known since childhood. If a scientist or engineer is going to be in a position which requires a lot of interaction with fellow employees and all other things are equal, then yes, the extrovert would make a better match for the position. I don't believe that extroverts value quantity over quality-they simply reap what they sow. If you approach more people and have a friendly, outgoing nature, you'll develop more friendships. It's as simple as that. I have two very extroverted friends, and one has about 45 "close friends", while the other has about eight-and he's quite famous in his field. I've met all the friend of the former-and they are simply wonderful people. She's very fortunate to have 45 good friends, and she knows it. saying that she values quantity over quality is an entirely unfair assumption.

[Nikia]

70. From a couple of aspects

In the world of work, employers no longer value long term employees. They think nothing of restructuring, laying off people or forcing them to transfer. At the entry level, temporary workers have become a fast growing part of employee type. Many employers don't plan on hiring these people. In order to get ahead in your career, you are encouraged to not stay at a company for more than 5-7 years. You are also encouraged to relocate. This breaks down the workplace community.
Partly because of the workplace situation and partly because of land use planning and the automobile society, people live, work, and shop in different places. Bigger stores are more profitable. You have less community developing at the places of businesses close to wear you live.
Fewer people live where they grew up. Fewer people participate in community organizations. School budget cuts close neighborhood schools. This isn't bad. We are a bunch of indepent consumers living in our own nuclear families. Before we marry, of course, we should go out and "have fun" with a bunch of people looking for the best one, and treating the rest as if they are disposable. These are media messages.
Unless your friend is super women, it is hard to have 45 close friends, especially with they aren't all friends or even part of the same community. In college, which was the best possible situation for community and making friends, I developed many friends my freshman year and was thouroughly exhausted. The only time for myself was studying, which isn't really for oneself. I mean really good friendships take at least a few hours per week to be really established until you've known each other for years. How else do you really know someone and trust them to do things that lend you their car if your's broke down or something? I grant that you might be telling the truth about your friend, especially if many of them have been in the same community for a while. It is harder when people aren't in the same community for very long though.
When I started dating my husband, I couldn't maintain all my friendships. Romantic partners are even more time demanding and more important than friends after all. If we hold hands with our friends or something, obviously we are intersted in them sexually or something, and sexual relationships are the ones that really count. (I am being sarcastic about the partner/friend thing. It is just another culturual message).
To be fair, maybe I am bitter about being so far from my community and extended family. Maybe I am afraid to develop many good friendships in a place where I might not stay. I have found it more difficult to develop community in the "real world". I see most of the same people at work and in the neighborhood, but for the most part, everyone who I meet around town or at events I go to is anonymous and we all seem to prefer it that way, but not really.

[Lorien]

74. That has nothing to do with being introverted

that's what happens when people become consumers instead of citizens. In a capitalist, right wing society, the bottom line is everything. When people place material items and status above relationships, they develop "affluenza" (book and DVD available at Amazon). This applies to introverts and extroverts alike.

Join our "Economic activism and Progressive Living' group for more on this topic.

[Nikia]

83. I am just saying that it hurts introverts more

I think that would be fair to say. For example, the scientist in my example who might seem uncomfortable at their job interview with a few people who he/she have never met, might be very comfortable within a few months with his/her work group of eight and get along with them very well. The extrovert who does very well at the job interview will probably get along with them faster. If the group constantly changes, the extrovert will continue to do well, while the introvert will go through more periods of discomfort. If the group stays the same or changes more slowly, the introvert will continue to do well.
If one goes into an environment, where there are twenty people who one could be really compatible with, the extrovert will do better than the introvert the larger the number of people who one wouldn't be compatible with. If there are many people who aggressive jerks or who do not value people, the introvert will be even less likely to find their potential friends than the extrovert.
There are some environments where being an introvert isn't a handicap. The way that American society has become and is becoming makes it more of a handicap.
I haven't looked at the Economic activism and Progressive Living group for a while. I think that I'll check it out.

[Lorien]

96. It really depends on why the person is

an introvert. My father is an introvert, and he really doesn't like being around people (funny, because he's a psychologist who spent his entire career seeing people). Modern life suits him just fine. I have friends who are extroverts and are extremely unhappy about the transient nature of modern America-they form strong attachments because they really LIKE people-then those people are sent away. They can't just be "replaced". I'm quite introverted, and I don't like our consumer culture one bit-but I don't mind moving from one community to the next because I always manage to keep in touch with those I really care about.I'm curious about the world and I'm easily bored, so I enjoy new environments. Also-one shouldn't depend on the workplace too heavily for one's personal relationships. I learned that the hard way. Best to find an activity outside of the workplace that you enjoy and find people there that share your interests. Work can sometimes be toxic to relationships. If a friend of mine is directing a film, I won't ask to work on it because I place their friendship before the financial advantages of being part of the picture.

I think life is just plain harder for introverts, no matter where we live. I see it as just another hurdle-like my fibromyalgia. It can't be cured overnight, but I'm convinced that eventually it won't be an issue at all. I'm already far more confident at forty than I was at thirty. I'm sure that by 50 I'll have worked it out.

[Nikia]

98. For me as an introvert

I actually really like people, which is the opposite of my mother who is extroverted and really dislikes people. I like people who I know and trust. I am rather sensitive. I get hurt easily. I am not a loner. I enjoy being with smalls groups of 5 or less people who I am comfortable with for up to 12 hours or so. In larger groups, I tend to shut down quicker.
Meeting new people is stressful, though I warm up to them shortly if I am meeting them one on one or up to a few in more comfortable enviroments. Being around a lot of people who I do not know is very stressful. If I must go to an event where I know no one, I usually end up identifying someone to meet and want to stay talking to that person and/ or their small group of friends. I feel disappointed if they turn out to be someone who wants to mingle instead of being my new friend. In which case, I go find someone else. Each person, who I approach is a stressful experience. I tend to be honest with who I am upon meeting a person, although I will usuaully omit anything too contraversial until I know that they are alright with that. I tend not to pretend that I like someone if I don't.
I always get exhausted quickly in large groups. I think a lot about the people who I am talking with. I guess that if I have too many people to think about, I can't handle it all. I also have a problem trying to pay attention to multiple conversations or even watching television and having a conversation.
My husband and I would really prefer living in a commune or something of like minded people. We really enjoyed our close college community. Such community doesn't seem to exist much out in the world. We aren't inclined though to go out and meet lots of people, many of who would have no intention of ever befriending us even if we were as extroverted as possible and showing only our best traits.

[Radical Activist]

105. I don't see any reason to call it discrimination.

Yes, there are certain things that make it easier to get ahead, and it helps if someone is able to act like an extrovert sometimes. It helps to understand that so you can deal with it, but I don't see how calling it discrimination is helpful or productive.

[Shell Beau]

14. Sometimes I am shy and other times I can be outgoing. I guess it

depends on the situation. The world needs both types of people. Differences are a good thing. I don't see it as being discriminated against though. But why say the people on Fear Factor are jerks because they are not an introvert? They may be crazy for doing those nasty stunts but jerks, hmmm, I don't know.

[RandomKoolzip]

18. I'm an extrovert, but if you looked like me, you'd be too:

I'm the guy on the left (whoisalhedges in on the right; also a total extrovert).

When you look like me, you gotta be jolly and upbeat lest people start thinkin' yer a serial killer or somethin'.

[valis]

20. You certainly are no Jerry Seinfeld...

[RandomKoolzip]

21. And nor are you Philip K. Dick.

[valis]

22. I recognize the last name, I think...

[RandomKoolzip]

31. Now that I've re-read your post, can you explain what the fuck it means?

[mark414]

109. hahahahahha

"when you look like me, you gotta be jolly and upbeat lest people start thinkin yer a serial killer or somethin"

:rofl:

thanks dude, i needed a good laugh like that

[Nikia]

25. I'm introverted and I know what you mean

It seems that modern America rewards those who aer good at making a lot of aquaintance, who they care little about, so they have no problems manipulating them if necessary. That is the way of business and getting what you want in life. I would say that things have gotten increasingly difficult for introverts. Modern America is not set up long term communities, long time relationships and friendships, long term jobs with a single company, and long term memberships in groups. We are made to feel all alone and the only way to bridge that gap is our own initiative, initiative that must be taken constantly if we are to thrive.
The type of introvert that I'm speaking about is not the complete loner, but rather the person that cultivates long term friendships and other relationships, which are fewer in number but stronger in quality, who doesn't need to talk all the time or be socially perfect because their community knows them. In a more long term community setting, being an introvert like this was considered a strength. The introvert might not have become the leader, but was a trusted person who could be depended upon and was valued.
One could say that it was necessary for American society to become that way and that change is good. Ask yourself though why there has been such an increase in anxiety and depression in the recent past. Ask yourself why these disorders are less common in new immigrants, poor as they may be, compared to immigrants who have been here 10 years or more.

[valis]

29. Very thoughtful post. Thanks.

I also think there is a correlation (perhaps not superstrong) with party affiliation. Republicans tend to be more extroverted, or at least generally incapable of introspection and genuine human relationships.

[Ivan Sputnik]

26. I've always been very introverted

but I've learned how to fake extroversion as I've gotten older. I find it very draining, but necessary to survive/succeed in this society, which only seems to reward aggressiveness and "outgoing" people who are good at self promotion.

[Nikia]

30. I think extroversion is very important for job interviews

In this economy, unless you are in a very specialized field, there is usually qualified competitiion for every advertised position. The person who is good at self promotion and are more comfortable talking to people who they have never met before will be the one who gets the job even if it is for a more introverted type job.

[deutsey]

56. Jung (who coined the terms "introversion" and "extroversion"

said that, in order for your personality to fully develop, you have to integrate your weaker traits into your stronger ones.

For example, if you're an introvert, as you get older you need to more fully develop your weaker extroverted tendencies and vice versa.

As I've aged, I've seen how I'm a bit more extroverted than I used to be (although I'm essentially still an introvert).

[Nikia]

28. On a more personal note

My senior year of college, I was in a small, but not tiny discussion based class. There were about 12 people in the class. I was not nervous in that setting, always did my readings, and had a goood understanding of the material. Since the class did not seem shy and everyone contributed, I talked in moderation, what I considered my fair share. I could have talked more but did not consider it fair to other contributers to try to dominate the conversation. We were not graded on our particiaption even though it was vital to the class.
After the first test, the professor said "You got the highest grade on the test and seem to have an exceptional understanding of the material. I had no idea though from your participation in class. I take it that you must be shy."
If particiaption in this class was graded or if she were my boss and participation lead to promotion, I wouldn't have faired as well as those who felt the need to dominate the conversation. Even though I wasn't shy in this situation though, my attitude was different from the extrovert who would say everything which he or she knew at every chance.
In another class, my grade actually did suffer. I had also take this approach and ended up with a C for my participation grade which was 30% of my grade for the class. As in the other case, I felt that I was being more fair to the class by not saying everything that I knew and was annoyed by those who did, interrupting people.
In really small classes or classes where few people seemed willing to contribute, I had no problem of talking more than everyone else.

[valis]

33. Thanks for sharing!

[Briarius]

37. I hated classes where participation was graded

I didn't have many, but they usually sucked for me. The only one I did decent in was a politics class. :D I also hear ya on not wanting to be the one who always knows the right answer, I hated the looks people would give if you always knew :(

[valis]

38. Heheh... I always did too well in school...

Partly, many kids who did not like me still had to fake liking me to get help on their homework etc... It was enough for me, at the time... Some of them even protected me against the worst bullies... So, things were not as bad as they could have been....

[Briarius]

39. yea, even in the participation classes I did well

the rest of my work carried me. The other thing I noticed is that I went for quality instead of quantity. I'd listen for a while before adding something, and sometimes that was the end of the subject for some reason. :( :D

[Lorien]

32. I've always been introverted

I think people are born that way. I've seen it in animals too; litters of puppies, kittens, raccoons; some will be very bold and friendly, while others will stay in the shadows-and that will be more or less true their entire lives.
I was not only born introverted but I had bad eyesight, bad teeth, and my jaw was deformed to the point of causing speech impairment. Grade school, Jr. high, high school-all were brutal. I had few friends and was constantly jeered at, beaten up, laughed at, etc. When I got out of high school I had surgery on my upper and lower jaws. I got contact lenses, I had seven years in braces, I became slim and fit. I was a tall natural blond with blue eyes and ample cleavage...but I was still an introvert. So naturally everyone thought I had a two digit IQ.

I've always been very good at my job. I have natural artistic talent, a good work ethic, and a professional attitude. In the corporation I worked for I saw extreme introverts rise to the top along with abrasive extroverts. I can honestly say that my gender caused far greater problems for me than being shy. I had been turned down for the job twice to begin with, but when I resubmitted my portfolio with all gender references removed, and sports and cheesecake themes added, I was suddenly offered a position-which was immediately withdrawn when they found out that I was a woman. I had to threaten them with the ACLU and NOW to get it back. My pay scale was lower than that of my male peers,I didn't get bonus checks because "men need more money because they have wives and just need stuff" (yep-I was really told that)! But I got the plumb assignments-I got the top jobs-and if I got praised for my work from someone at the top of the ladder, my immediate supervisors would reprimand me for "taking too much attention away from the men in the studio".

I worked in management myself for a while. To do so, I read the classic "how to win friends and influence people" and put Carnegie's suggestions to use. In other words, I faked being an extrovert by forcing myself not to think "what do they think of ME'"? but "What do I think of THEM". I focused on what other people were saying, trying to understand them and their point of view, and trying to shut out all that inner dialog that says "you're stupid and ugly and everyone hates you." Eventually, I was the one hiring others. From an employer's point of view someone who is painfully introverted can become a real handful as an employee IF they are the sort of person who needs constant reassurance, or lack communication skills, or get emotionally wounded easily. Communication is key in most companies, so I guess that there is "discrimination" against those who are so withdrawn that one doesn't know whether or not they understand the assignment, what their opinions are when their opinions are required, etc.I've had employees get so upset with other employees that they went home in the middle of the day without saying a word to anyone- not good when the schedule requires their total commitment and participation. So I think that in many cases "discrimination against introverts" is really just practicality on the part of the employer, depending on what the job requirements are. And, unlike gender and race, we can all learn to fake what we are not when it comes to our introverted behavior.

[tinfoilinfor2005]

34. I'm an Outy...

But I can be pretty shy in some situations.

I have noticed though that when I am in a room full of outgoing personalities, the introvert gets run over. They seem to disappear out of the conversations unless someone draws them out. But I don't think they are considered mental. Just quiet.

[Jamison]

49. I'm an introvert, but...

in my workplace, and in public in general, I'm good at faking being an extrovert. It's funny that the more loud and boorish I act, the more people seem to warm up to and accept me. I really hate acting that way, but I guess that's just how the world works.

[deutsey]

52. I'm an INFP (Myers Briggs) and agree that our society favors extroverts

That's one of my big frustrations with American society today: it doesn't value in the least introspection, solitude (although loneliness runs rampant), subtlety of thought, or nuance of experience.

I always thought there was something intrinsically wrong with me until I took the Myers Briggs personality assessment and discovered that I'm an INFP, one of the rarest personality types around. I remember feeling such a huge sense of relief when I read the assessment that described how I am to a "t"; until that time I guess I judged myself by what the larger extroverted society classified me as (an oddball, loser, unambitious, etc.) and began to recognize, instead, the value of my authentic personality traits.

It was very liberating for me, much in the way, I suppose, that racial minorities or gays and lesbians must feel when they reject the dominant society's distorted view of them and embrace their true identity. That doesn't mean I still don't bump up against the kind of discrimination you describe.

Because of my introversion, people tend either to overlook or to dismiss me because I'm not pushing myself into the limelight all the time (I resist the limelight, in fact). Or they make their own projections onto me of who I am, rather than taking the time to get to know me through conversation.

One line from John Updike's memoir really struck home with me; he said something about struggling to hack through the tangled vines and tendrils of other people's perceptions just to reveal a little glimpse of his real self to them. Sometimes I don't think it's worth the effort, myself.

[valis]

54. Thanks! BTW, here is the Myers-Briggs online

http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/JTypes2.asp

[alarimer]

58. I don't know about discrimintation

I do know that I feel misunderstood a LOT. Like I don't get how to deal with people at all. People tell me I should act more enthusiastic, for example. I have never been a reall "gung-ho" sort of person. It just isn't me so, while I guess I could fake a certain lever of enthusiasm, it wouldn't be real. Some also tell me that I should smile more (WTF?- if I don't feel like smiling I am not going to). Fortunately I work in an office where most people have similar issues (mosr of us on the Introverted end of the scale- although some are in the middle-there is only one extrovert and he is a collosal jerk as well). I've learned to be good at job interviews. I don't really have to play office politics where I work so I don't have to kiss up to the boss.

[gollygee]

60. "Discriminating" and "not understanding" are two different things

my husband is a serious introvert and is not understood. I don't know if you can call reacting to a personality trait "discrimination."

[alarimer]

97. True

But I have found myself often overlooked by people; my whole life I have felt left out even by my so-called friends. One roomate I had once said that being shy was just rude!! Talk about clueless. I suppose empolyers "disciminate" in the sense that they choose to hire people that fit certain criteria during the interview. If you do not interview well, but are otherwise well-qualified, you might have a problem. Although I think it is possible to learn to interview well no matter your personality type.

[valis]

101. OK, the interview is one thing you can learn...

There are many books and it's a one time thing, basically. It is harder to keep it up over extended periods of time though... If it does not fit who you are...

[alarimer]

119. It is more of a problem socially though

As far as dating is concerner, don't get me started. I am not necessarily talkative on a first date (unless I have had a beer or two-not necessarily a good idea). I have trouble thinking of things to say with a lot of people not just on dates. But the dating thing is a pain in the ass and probably is the reason why I seldom hear from a guy again after an initial meeting. I am not overlooking the fact that I may not be what guys are looking for appearance-wise. I am not tall, not blond, sort of tomboyish I suppose. So who really knows? I suspect they aren't always that shallow and we just don't click somehow.

[valis]

120. Ok, as somebody else pointed out being "shy" and being "introverted"

are not always overlapping. Also, there is what people have been calling "highly sensitive person", who can be introverted or not. There are many semi-overlapping components, which is why it's a difficult topic...
Have you tried taking this little test? Just curious how you'd score...
I score as HSP. Not that shy, but get really tired interacting with many people (no problems with small groups, 5 people or less).

http://www.hsperson.com/pages/test.htm

[alarimer]

121. I tried it but I didn't really fit many of the questions

I think I checked two of them. I think I just don't "get" people sometimes; or they don't "get" me. I have scored pretty much on the introverted part of the scale in MBTI. We did this thing for a staff meeting once and all the extremes on both ends had to go up before the group and decide how they would respond to a given scenario. The results were interesting, although I can't remember the specifics.

[alarimer]

122. Actually having thought about it

A lot of those topics DO seem to fit me. I think maybe 14 or so, so I am perhaps on the edge. I need to read her book to find out more. the reason I went over this again was because of something that happened at work today. Actually it is an ongoing issue but I am constantly at loggerheads with one guy (who is as it happens an extravert and als oa collosal jerk). He tends to run roughshod over people and orders me especially around in such a brusque and demanding wasy (though he isn't actually my boss). I take offense at that and know that I am more sensitive than most people, at least in that respect. I have spoken to my boss and he is aware that I often overreact to this guy's behavior. I have promised to be less sensitive and try to let it roll off but it isn't always easy. Today I was venting to someone else about this guy, I said something like, "if I ever quit my job, I am listing this person as a reason". I think he might have overheard me. So I am feeling a little guilty about that.

[maveric]

61. I'm an introvert and a stutterer.

I cant tell you how many jobs and promotions I've been turned down for due to my reserved appearance and my occaisional dysfluency. I have been more than qualified or the positions but rarely get them.

Yes, I feel discriminated against.

[Wapsie B]

71. I'm an introvert, and always have been.

This goes for work as well as socially. I see the rules and expectations of the world made by extroverts. Whether it be work or romance there'd better be some overriding quality in you to even get noticed in either arena. I'm not someone who calls attention to myself at work. I bring my lunchpail in and do my job. Romantically? Well we won't even go there.

[newportdadde]

73. Its been a HUGE problem in my professional career.

Three months ago during my yearly review for 2004, I basically found out I was getting the minimum raise/no promotion etc. So we started discussing it and here is a direct quote..

"X your a hardworker, you take tasks and get them done on time and get the done right the first time, but thats not enough you need to be more 'visible'."

Which is code for.. I'm not a golf buddy with a manager, I'm not a member of any departmemt club, Diversity Club, etc etc. I"m also quite in meetings because I only talk when its something important not just to hear my own voice.

So yes its a very real and very difficult issue for me.

Edit:

Decided to add some characteristics of those who are moving up the ladder.

For Men: Six foot height or more(I'm 5'8''), athletic, golfer etc.

For Women: Size 6 or less, tanned, blonde preferred. Saw a girl 6 years out of college get promotted to the level of an older unattractive lady at the same time as this lady, but the older lady took 25 years(and she is very good).

I've heard the hot girl had sex with the boss but who knows.

[valis]

76. So, I guess the sarcastic folks in this thread would say

That's all your fault, that you have to grab what you deserve. Which is like saying why don't women become men? Of course you have tried to the best of you abilities. The problem is that what they are asking of you has nothing to do with job performance. It's an arbitrary set of attributes which is the definition of discrimination. And the way you were born does not fit well with these arbitrary rules. Your brain works naturally in different ways. These ways are not less effective, often they are more effective. They appear to be less effective only because of the management style of your bosses.
BTW, are you unionized?

[newportdadde]

78. Not unionized.

I'm salaried and in the IT area so its dog eat dog, there are other introverts here in my workplace. The lady I mentioned above, brilliant hardworker is a very good example.

I really wish the workplace recognized it takes all types, the bullshitters, the nose down workers etc to make something successful.

I took the above test and came out an INTJ.

[valis]

81. Yup, INTJ here too!

:)

[Huckebein the Raven]

82. I'm another INTJ ( I think )

or is it INFJ ?

[supernova]

85. Another INTJ checking in

:D

But it helps to joke with other people about it. I just tell them to call me "spock," eventhough that doesn't begin to cover it. It's something they can relate to.

[valis]

87. eheheh... Joking about it is good... Sometimes it's difficult...

[Huckebein the Raven]

89. That's good advice

:)

[Huckebein the Raven]

75. A definite introvert

but I'm working on breaking out of my shell so to speak. It's not as bad as in high school where I didn't socialize with anyone outside of school. Let's not even discuss the romance subject

[valis]

77. Good. Most people can "work on it".

But my point is that it is a disadvantage because you have to spend time "workig on it". Why don't THEY work on it? It's purely historical, unfair, and discriminatory.

[supernova]

79. Society is defintely built for extroverts

But I've learned to manage by putting my game face on when I go out in public. For me, anyplace that isn't home or family is public, soo...


I've learned to fake it when I need to for a period of time. But I have to come home and recuperate afterwards.

[Deep N RedLand]

80. Has mostly cost me job-wise.

To me it has always been a double-edged sword. I pick or prefer certain jobs or shifts due to not being comfortable around unknown people and enjoying the solitude of doing my own thing. Yet I know it's one of the factors that have held me back for advancement or better paying work over the years.

Most employers only look at the gregarious extroverts that stand out and prefer style over substance when it comes to work quality. I have found that most of those easygoing, back-slapping "Let's go hang out outside of work" types are usually kiss-ass suck-ups who's agenda is just to get as high up the ladder as they can and will not hesitate to step over those same people under them to do it or eventually screw the company over they claim to be so loyal to.

Since I prefer not to be perceived as one of them, this is also why I likely don't try to imitate them though it forever serves as a source of hostility that employers rather please and reward the outgoing, opportunist than the quiet loyalist. By mangers overlooking the introvert they are often denying themselves as much as the employee.
I have also noticed that a lot of extroverts are more than willing to act like they are in total compliance with everyone, even if they state in private the boss's idea is shit, where I might be more inclined toward honestly that is obviously not always appreciated.

Introversion has of course proved a burden in other social areas, as I chosse not to attend company get-togethers or have any network of friends outside of family as I rather stay home than face new people. It has also proved a burden on following through on my pledge of being more outwardly active in a political or progressively social cause.

I do think society discriminates against shy people and offers them less opportunity. I also agree with what was stated already in that some people seem to blame the person as if it is something they can "snap out of". I also believe a good portion of introversion is partly caused by some form of clinical depression (I am no stranger to this either) and there is still not a great deal of understanding and sympathy in society in such instances.

Extreme extroversion could be viewed as a disorder in some ways too, as to me I've always thought there must be some hidden reason driving those to want to constantly have the spotlight on them, have millions of friends or be well-liked by all.

I may be biased, but to me shyness is the norm and the loudest people are the odd ones.

[valis]

86. Thanks for sharing...

"I do think society discriminates against shy people and offers them less opportunity. I also agree with what was stated already in that some people seem to blame the person as if it is something they can "snap out of". I also believe a good portion of introversion is partly caused by some form of clinical depression (I am no stranger to this either) and there is still not a great deal of understanding and sympathy in society in such instances."

Exactly right. People who don't understand this issue are basically thinking of this as of something "you can snap out of". And if you don't it's your fault. There may be an association with depression. Although none of the introverts I know are clinically depressed. You could also argue that being a minority is associated with depression! Of course it is, because you become frustrated and feel treated unfairly. But like depression is a result of being a minoritym not a cause, depression is likely to be a result of introversion because of the way the world reacts to you.
Introversion is not a mental disorder. Not more than being a woman is a diseases of some sort.

[Deep N RedLand]

90. Good points and...

...I did not mean to suggest introversion is a disorder like depression, but merely in my experience they go hand-in-hand. For me,I don't know in the chicken & egg scenario which is the causing factor that lead to the other, but have found they are the same if only in the way society treats them as things one could "get over" if they only tried harder.

One final point that a poster commented on in that employers viewed them as less smart compared with outgoing employees. I agree that perception is the case all too much, but have found just the opposite is the reality. I have found a lot of shy people seem to be the more knowledgeable and intelligent due to the fact a lot of us spend more time reading and observing others rather than trying to network and be always center stage. I find those people are too busy trying to bullshit others and saying what will impress and really only know enough to get them ahead. Again, it comes back to employers only seeing the short-term and not necessarily what is good for the organization.

Your welcome and glad I could help.

[valis]

92. All so true!!

"One final point that a poster commented on in that employers viewed them as less smart compared with outgoing employees. I agree that perception is the case all too much, but have found just the opposite is the reality. I have found a lot of shy people seem to be the more knowledgeable and intelligent due to the fact a lot of us spend more time reading and observing others rather than trying to network and be always center stage. I find those people are too busy trying to bullshit others and saying what will impress and really only know enough to get them ahead. Again, it comes back to employers only seeing the short-term and not necessarily what is good for the organization."

[supernova]

88. In the introduction to The Highly Sensitive Person

Elaine Aron makes the statement that the west does indeed belittle introverts, or highly sensitives as she calls us. And in the eastern societies it is different.

I don't have the book in front of me (my sis borrowed it and never gave it back! :grr: ) but I'm paraphrasing here:

The Chinese language doesn't have the concept of "shy." There is no symbol for it. The closest they come is their word for "wise." The societal norm is that shy people are respected and considered wise. I wish that were true here. :-(

[valis]

91. I read the HSP books, I even had lunch with Elaine Aron

I think she hit the nail on the head. Perhaps we should be talking about HSPs, more than introverts (since there are introverts who are not highly sensitive people).
I'd recommend her books to anybody who's struggling with this, or at least feeling that something ain't right...
Thanks for mentioning it!

[supernova]

93. Come join us in the Loners Group

I'm impressed you got to meet her. THat's exciting.

Reading her books was when I began to lose the feeling there was something fundamentally wrong with me that I needed to fix. I learned to accept myself and appreciate the good qualities that this kind of life brings.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=281

[valis]

94. She is an interesting character.... Her books have good advice too...

I met her by chance, basically I was collaborating with her husband on a social psych project... At the time I did not even know they were married though...

Is the Loners Group for real? I suppose I need to contribute a few bucks to post there? :) ....

[supernova]

95. Yes, it's real

although, true to form, we don't post there every day. Sorry, didn't notice the nonstar.

[Nikia]

100. I read your thread about it in the Loners group

On the self test, I scored very high for being a highly sensitive person. I'll have to get a copy of that book.

[valis]

107. Check out her site:

http://www.hsperson.com/

[Dastard Stepchild]

99. To some degree...

I feel as though my introversion can sometimes make me apppear standoffish and disinterested, when in fact, I am generally just wary of "breaking the ice" and starting up a conversation. Once I gety into my home, I seal myself up and don't asnswer the phone or the door... so people generally have to catch me in public to keep up with me. I feel guilty about it, but it never seems to be any other way for me.
I think that it can be problematic in classes - most of my courses grade for participation, and I generally get heart palpitations even thinking about answering the questions. Especially in the discussion classes when there is no formal method of answering but everyone talks aloud - I never want to get in on that battle to have my comment heard. So, I just sit there and hope that the professor realizes that I am engaged even if I am not contributing.
sigh..........

[Bouncy Ball]

103. There's a difference between shy and introverted.

I'm an introvert, but not particularly SHY.

Being an introvert means I get my energy by having time ALONE. I absolutely have to have time alone on a regular basis.

I can be around lots of people, I can work a room, I can go to parties, be with other people plenty, but I find it draining. It wears me out.

Then, if I can be alone, I can recharge myself, gain back some energy.

Extroverts are the opposite: they get energy from other people and being alone is draining.

But believe it or not, extroverts can be shy. And I'm one introvert who is not very shy.

:shrug:

Just learn to recognize when you need time alone, explain this need to those closest to you (I had one friend once say "Bouncy just becomes a hermit every now and then"), and ask that they respect it.

[belladonna]

115. You just described me perfectly!! N/T

[valis]

116. Interesting. Could you take this test? I'm curious.

http://www.hsperson.com/pages/test.htm

Not the bible, of course, but she has done quite a bit of research on the topic.
I score as HSP, I'm moderately shy and I definitely get drained around people. I can do it, but I need a lot of time alone to recharge.

[Bouncy Ball]

117. I know I'm an INFJ on the Meyers-Briggs. The rarest type.

And I'll check this one out, too.

[Beware the Beast Man]

104. No and no.