OK - I'm officially in love with Jane Fonda

[Dookus]

I've always been a fan. But today I watched her on Larry King and David Letterman, and what a class act she is.

She speaks frankly and openly, but there's nothing mean about her. She has only the nicest things to say about her father and her three ex-husbands, even when discussing the problems she had with all of them.

She told a charming story on Letterman about going skinny-dipping in the Mediterranean with Greta Garbo when she was 17 years old. She talked about working with Katherine Hepburn, whose first words to her were "I don't like you!", and does so in a way that never diminishes Hepburn.

What a classy lady.

[MrScorpio]

1. I'm right there with you Dookus

I've been a fan of hers for years.

Whatever sins she may have committed, I feel that she's atoned for them.

[Dookus]

2. Did you catch her on Letterman?

She was great, especially when talking about Vietnam.

She's unrepentant about the rightness of her cause, and in fact, few Americans today doubt she was right. She does seem sincerely sorry for allowing herself to be photographed at the guns. She also correctly described why some people can't let go of the issue - some people are still deeply scarred by Vietnam, and others are using her for a narrow political agenda that really has nothing to do with her. She's a bright woman.

[MrScorpio]

3. I missed her

But I did see her on 60 Minutes

Class act all the way

[Dookus]

4. Unfortunately, I missed that one

It would've been cool to see.

She's appearing at a theater just up the street from me next month. I'm hoping to go see her and get a signed book.

[donheld]

112. I think i'm late for this show

:popcorn:

[WoodrowFan]

143. you missed the first act.

not sure when part 2 starts.

[TreasonousBastard]

5. She's all over the tube with the book dog and pony show...

and every time I see her she just gets better and better.

I love her honesty-- when she's right she stands firm, and when she's wrong she admits it. No hiding the problems in her life, and no whining about or spinning them, either.

Hanoi Jane got a bad rap. She deserves an honored place in history-- we need more like her.

BTW, right now she's on GMA talking about her problems with her father and things that happened on "On Golden Pond." Good stuff there.

[Dookus]

6. And she looks fantastic for 67 years old...

Obviously has had work done, but still has some crows feet and other signs of aging. I hate when they're pulled so tight they can't move.

[VOX]

7. Yes. She is super-intelligent, very well-spoken, and still a knockout.

The "Hanoi Jane" rap is, IMO, so old and tired -- it was more than thirty years ago. And, if it's looked at within the context of those times, it must be remembered that there was some bit of surreal and "outrageous" political-guerilla theater happening every week. Now, it's just another (very) dead horse for the right wing to flog.

She will always be classy. :thumbsup:

[mr blur]

8. But isn't she now a fundamentalist?

Or am I reading this wrong?:

http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Apr05/Chuckman0405.htm

[Hieronymus]

9. She said, no.....

doesn't like them

[left is right]

10. She became a Christian

And isn't amazing that she hasn't been embraced by the fundalmentalist and accorded the same degree of forgiveness for her past sins that Bush and Delay were

[tjdee]

185. Seeing as that article has no quotes or explanation...

I'm inclined to disbelieve it.

That link basically goes off on a tangent as if she *is* a fundie, but offers no actual evidence of that.

[BikeWriter]

11. I still hold a grudge for her sitting on the antiaircraft gun.

Those damned things were killing American pilots.

[Dookus]

12. And she has apologized

many many times for that, going back many yeaers, calling it a stupid thing to do.

Does one photograph negate everything she did that was right?

[BikeWriter]

14. That picture helped North Viet-Nam and Chi-Com morale...

which meant more of my Brothers and Sisters in uniform died. Yes, she says it was a stupid thing to do, but does that bring one of our pilots and soldiers back to life?

[redqueen]

16. .

.

[BikeWriter]

18. Does that exonerate her for helping to kill them? Read this:

During a 1972 trip to North Vietnam, Jane Fonda propagandized on behalf of the North Vietnamese government, declared that American POWs were being treated humanely and condemned U.S. soldiers as "war criminals" and later denounced them as liars for claiming they had been tortured: True.
http://www.snopes.com/military/fonda.asp

[OldLeftieLawyer]

23. Does that exonerate Nixon and Kissinger?

I think they were the ones who ordered the killings, not Jane Fonda.

Snap out of it.

[BikeWriter]

25. Snap out of it? I will never forgive this:

To add insult to injury, when American POWs finally began to return home (some of them having been held captive for up to nine years) and describe the tortures they had endured at the hands of the North Vietnamese, Jane Fonda quickly told the country that they should "not hail the POWs as heroes, because they are hypocrites and liars." Fonda said the idea that the POWs she had met in Vietnam had been tortured was "laughable," claiming: "These were not men who had been tortured. These were not men who had been starved. These were not men who had been brainwashed." The POWs who said they had been tortured were "exaggerating, probably for their own self-interest," she asserted. She told audiences that "Never in the history of the United States have POWs come home looking like football players. These football players are no more heroes than Custer was. They're military careerists and professional killers" who are "trying to make themselves look self-righteous, but they are war criminals according to law."

http://www.snopes.com/military/fonda.asp

[OldLeftieLawyer]

28. So you can forgive Nixon and Kissinger,

but not Jane Fonda?

Please. Spare me.

[BikeWriter]

50. Where have I said I forgive anyone?

Jane was against us troops, whether draftee, POW, or whatever! That was w-r-o-n-g! Yes, I oppose the needless war for oil in Iraq. Would I call Jessica Lynch and Lori Piestewa war criminals? Hell no!

[OldLeftieLawyer]

53. "said"?

Man, this is just sad...................

[BikeWriter]

55. Yes, it's sad she called POWs liars about being tortured...

and starved and called all us troops murderers and war criminals. You can condone it or forgive it, but I never will!

[OldLeftieLawyer]

59. You know nothing

about what I condone or don't condone.

What you know, you're sure of, and I suppose that sort of unrepentant and recalcitrant thinking is some comfort to you, but, while you're focusing on one small incident, you're overlooking, and, by implication, neglecting the true killers.

What I know is that it's much easier to focus on the acts of a nitwit movie star a generation ago rather than speak up about Henry Kissinger and demand the accounting that should have been made a generation ago.

[BikeWriter]

65. ...and you know I haven't?

I moderate a number of forums, including a "Yellow Dog Democrat" and a "VietNam Veterans of America." I have posted tens of thousands of times condemning Nixon, Kissinger, Reagan, Poppy Bush and all of the usual suspects. This thread is lauding Hanoi Jane, and I am interjecting my negative opinions of her.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

76. So?

You're bringing up all kinds of things you see as credentials. It's irrelevant.

You're entitled to your negative opinion of anyone, but others are entitled to see the situation differently, and if you whip out that "I served in the military" stuff or the "I moderate a number of forums" business, you simply diminish whatever force your opinions might have had.

[BikeWriter]

113. So?

You've made diversionary posts about the leaders of the VietNam war. I merely informed you I have addressed that on other forums, but the topic here is Jane Fonda. My military credentials were posted because I have been the target of Hanoi Jane's vitriol, as have my Brothers and Sisters in arms. I feel that more pertinent to this thread than nixon.

[Donkeyboy75]

174. This thread is about Jane Fonda.

Not Nixon or Kissinger. Guess that's too hard for you to understand, though.

[BikeWriter]

176. That's true. Some in this thread keep posting diversions.

[JimmyJazz]

27. "snap out of it?"

I think perhaps you should read BikeWriter's sig line and show him a little more respect than telling him to "snap out of it." IMHO of course.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

30. I think you should

consider respecting whomever you want, and I'll do the same.

[JimmyJazz]

35. Starting now? Fine. I choose to respect someone who

served in uniform and made a tremendous sacrfice for this country, not someone who thinks "snap out of it" is an appropriate response to someone expressing how they feel about someone whom many consider a traitor to this country. Thanks for the advice :hi:

Oh you're a lawyer...shit. Does this mean you'll be sending me a bill?

[jukes]

47. jimmy

many of us served in Viet Nam. I used to have my Combat Infantry Badge in my sig line. I have several other medals I received for being shot at by people that have more integrety & compassion than the Neocons I was fighting for (Nixon, the poster child of Dominionism & Neocon philosophy was my commander in chief). Personally, I believe I was shooting the wrong people; I regret killing my brothers & sisters in black PJs to prop up the fascists in OD that gave me orders. I shd have aimed in the opposite direction; maybe the world wd be a better place if I had.

Viet Nam campaign ribbons do NOT a liberal make, nor necessarily a hero.

[JimmyJazz]

54. I know darling. I just think he should be allowed to dislike the

woman if he wants. That's all.

[jukes]

70. agreed

but that sad old "aid & comfort to the enemy" stuff is tiresome, & indefensible. there is more at stake here than someone's personal dislikes.

forgive me, but i sense a disruption here, similar to the type that got "wheelie-alex" banned under his many incarnations. disliking her is one thing, personally she bored me as an actress. branding her as a traiter for resisting an unlawful war of aggresion is another matter. I'm SO tired of the whole "Hanoi Jane" rhetoric used by the RWingers. it's so similar to the swiftboat liars' condemnation of kerry's antiwar efforts.


let me add that there's nothing personal in my remarks to your posts. you're 1 of my favorite DUers, we just view this matter in a different perspective.

[JimmyJazz]

71. meh - how fun is it to always agree?

[OldLeftieLawyer]

49. Good for you

Now, any reason why you chose to try to insult me?

Do you believe everyone's tag line and screen name?

[BikeWriter]

60. I have a DD-214, orders to Nam, and a VA card...

As well as pictures of me in uniform wearing the VietNam ribbon. I am willing to show pictures of them to a responsible party. I believe that entitles me to express my opinion regarding the war in VietNam and a woman who called us all war criminals.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

62. No, you're wrong

I don't care what you have.

All Americans are entitled to freedom of speech, and if you think your military service somehow gives you a greater freedom than someone who didn't serve, you are so, so wrong.

[BikeWriter]

68. Wonderful! Yell out you love Jane Fonda!

You have that right! I will choose to respectfully disagree and call her a traitorous bitch!

[OldLeftieLawyer]

77. I don't love Jane Fonda

You simply don't understand, do you, that Jane Fonda was not responsible for what we did in Viet Nam?

You sure dug yourself into a big hole. I hope you can get out sometime, and see the light. It's nicer than the dark.

[BikeWriter]

105. She was not responsible for the war, no.

But she was responsible for her own actions, as she admits now.

"The image of Jane Fonda, Barbarella, Henry Fonda's daughter...sitting on an enemy aircraft gun was a betrayal...It was the largest lapse of judgment that I can even imagine." - Jane Fonda, interviewed by Leslie Stahl, on CBS 60 Minutes television April 3, 2005.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

108. Gee.........................

She's human and makes mistakes. Especially mistakes of uninformed youth. What a sad testimony it is upon how the Vietnam debacle is viewed that all that matters is what some movie star did. Talk about forests and trees.

So, if Jane Fonda is that big a villain, I would estimate that the rage against Nixon and Kissinger must be 55,000 times greater.

Congratulations on being so perfect you can sit in judgment of what a young woman did a lifetime ago instead of reflecting on who the real murderers are.

[BikeWriter]

115. Jane Fonda was 34 in 1972.

That is well over the age of responsibility. I will be critical about Nixon and Kissinger in the apropriate threads. Thank you for saying I'm perfect.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

116. Good you believe me

So, if you believe I said you were perfect - and, of course, your reading comprehension failed - then you do understand that your bringing up "Hanoi Jane" and "Chi Com" (you really had to pull that out of the ugly history books, and you got it wrong anyway) in this thread was unfortunate.

You might have forgotten - or perhaps you never knew - that the Vietnam era was a time of mis- and dis-information. Older people than Jane Fonda had opinions that turned out to be wrong because of the government's lies.

No, you're far from perfect, but you do seem to be burdened by something that's no longer relevant, and the attendant anger you display seems terribly corrosive.

I wish you well, though. I hope it will be all right for you.

And I hope Ms. Fonda's book sells a gazillion copies.

[BikeWriter]

124. I know hundreds of Vets who won't buy the book...

...and won't buy her protestations of apology, either. Especally since she didn't apologise to us until 1988.

"In 1988, sixteen years after denouncing American soldiers as war criminals and tortured POWs as possessed of overactive imaginations, Fonda met with Vietnam veterans to apologize for her actions. It's interesting to note that this nationally-televised apology (during which she attempted to minimize her actions by characterizing them as "thoughtless and careless") came at a time when New England vets were successfully disrupting a film project she was working on."

http://www.snopes.com/military/fonda.asp

[OldLeftieLawyer]

128. Bless your heart

You're winding up my day with great big laughs. Thanks.

[BikeWriter]

130. I honor our war dead fonda vilified as war criminals.

Laugh all you want!

[jonnyblitz]

51. I served in uniform and i think holding grudges against

Jane Fonda is tiresome as hell. jump my shit why doncha if i am not patriotically correct enough for ya. :P

[JimmyJazz]

56. I'll jump your shit!

Dayum - you try to have someone's back...If only I had started this post, it would have counted as my first official flamewar post. Drat - I think I'm going to go back to dissing Dean and Clark. I was sooooo much better at that :P

[BikeWriter]

63. Did you serve in VietNam?

If so, you were a war criminal too, according to Ms. Fonda. It is your right to forgive her if you wish. I cannot.

[jukes]

72. No, we were youngsters, duped

by cynical middle-aged imperial assholes.

i've got fotos, DD214, scars, malaria, and really bad memories, too.

Jane apparently wasn't as stupid as i was.

[BikeWriter]

104. Welcome home, thank you for your service.

It is your right to feel her actions were justified, or to forgive her. It is my opinion, by cheering on the VC and lying about us she crossed lines that made her my enemy. I don't take that lightly. (Ededed fur stoopit speleng)

[nguoihue]

172. Vet here 67-68 & 69-70

No problems with Jane Fonda. Did not agree with her at the time but still believe she had the right to do her thing. By the time she traveled to Hanoi in '72 the American phase of the war was nearly over. Yeah, she sat on a gun that was used to shoot down American planes who were dropping bombs on Viet civilians. Now I tend to side with Jane.

Semper Fi

[BikeWriter]

177. Where do you stand on her calling POWs liars and war criminals?

Welcome home, thanks for your service.

[nguoihue]

180. war criminals and liars

Well, I really don't care what she called them. I'd like to name a few war criminals and liars myself including LBJ, Nixon, Generals Harkins, Westmoreland and Abrams and the CIA.

[BikeWriter]

182. You're very forgiving of her lies against POWs, I'm not.

[Medium Baby Jesus]

69. She's not a traitor

she's a patriot and if her efforts helped bring that miserable war to an end, I applaud her.

BTW, shouldn't you be starting a flirting thread about now?

[JimmyJazz]

80. I'll get right to posting about flirting as soon as I tell you what a

mean thing that was to say. Yeah, I fuckin' play around in the lounge - it doesn't mean I don't take this shit seriously. It means that my head would explode if I didn't have a good laugh now and again.

I mean seriously, why bother posting to me if I'm just a fluffy headed bimbo?

[progmom]

81. MBJ?

JimmyJazz did not call Fonda a traitor. She simply was defending BikeWriter's right to do it.

And the crack about flirting threads? Totally unnecessary and way out of line.

[JimmyJazz]

89. Actually, I did mention that photo of her applauding the North

Vietnamese soldiers (I'll jump in before he does), but the truth is, I spent the morning reading about my Uncle's untimely demise in Viet Nam and it put me in a "not so unbiased" mood when I posted that.

You are right, though - my position is that BW has a right to his opinion. Thanks, progmom :pals:

[jukes]

106. MBJ

the "flirting" comment was uncalled for. i agree w/you about fonda, disagree w/ JimmyJazz on that subject. but to dismiss her as a mere tease is disrespectful. we shd limit comments to topic, but hey, that's just my opinion.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

48. Excuse the non-native English speaker here...

...but I don't read "snap out of it" as disrespectful. Sounds like "give it a rest" or "enough already".

[OldLeftieLawyer]

61. Congratulations..............

Your English is excellent, and your sensibilities are definitely sharp.

Thanks.

[skygazer]

114. Respectfully

Has it ever occurred to you that perhaps she was being duped by the North Vietnamese on the subject of American POW's? Using her anti war sentiment as a propaganda tool. Yes, she made a mistake, a bad mistake and she has since, more than once, apologised publicly for it. What would you have her do? What would ease your mind or make things better? I'm not saying you have to love her or even like her but those were volitile times, she was young and stupid and we've all made mistakes when young and stupid.

Do you really know that her words and actions were responsible for any American deaths? Not really. Her behavior was wrong but she was a small part, a tiny pawn, in a huge affair in which the blame lies much more squarely on the heads of those who actually had the power to start or stop such things.

Jane Fonda's actions are hateful and controversial precisely because the administration and the war supporters of the time saw them as a good way to deflect criticism from themselves onto her and the others who protested the war. Just as the present administration tries to deflect attention from their misdoings.

I respect your feelings and appreciate your service and sacrifices but I honestly don't think her actions had as much impact on North Vietnamese morale as has been made out. I tend to wonder if anyone in Vietnam had any idea of who she actually was.

[BikeWriter]

157. Let me ask you this. She made statements that American POWs...

were being treated humanely, had good medical treatment, and they'd laughed at the idea they were being treated inhumanely or tortured. This was all reported in the world press. Don't you think this weakened U.S. efforts to see our POWs were given truly humane treatment? I certainly do. The VietNamese, North and South, were very aware of American celebrities. I wore cowboy attire in Pleiku often and heard "Same same John Wayne!" every time.

[skygazer]

164. Honestly?

No, I really don't think it weakened efforts to see that POW's were given humane treatment, any more than a report from Susan Sarandon that US POW's in Iraq were being given humane treatment would. The government and the military have never really given a lot of credence to anything a celebrity has said.

Let me ask you this - since you buy into the idea that Fonda's visit to North Vietnam played such a large role in their morale, do you feel that people who protested also played a large role in that morale? Taking that a step further, should we not protest U.S. actions in Iraq for fear that the "enemy" there will take comfort from it and use it to garner more support in the Middle East? In other words, should we all just shut up?

Personally, I don't believe so. And though I don't agree with what she did then, I respect her for her opposition to our being there in the first place - because we shouldn't have been - and I accept her apologies for what she herself recognizes as an error.

[BikeWriter]

169. That's certainly your prerogative...

I put a poll at my vet forum asking: "Hanoi Jane- Do you hate her or have you forgiven her?" So far it's four to zero against her. We did not mind most of the protestors, but considered her actions in Hanoi and her lies against our POW Brothers treasonous.
To quote a combat Veteran Marine buddy of mine, who despises * by the way, "I'll forgive Hanoi Jane when the Jews forgive Hitler."

[skygazer]

179. Absurd comparison

How in hell can he or anyone compare Jane Fonda to Hitler? Ridiculous. Hitler was responsible for the death of 6 MILLION jews - there is no evidence whatsoever that Jane Fonda is responsible for anyone's death anywhere.

You know, I happened upon a remark you made in another thread - the one in which you told some Marine jokes. Someone pointed out that Ollie North was a traitor - you mildly remarked "go after his bosses."

You know what? Ollie North is a person who damn well should have known better, unlike Jane Fonda who was not military, not government and obviously pretty naive about the situation. The fact that you can agree with someone who compares Fonda to Hitler yet give North a pass (ostensibly on the old excuse of "only following orders") says a lot and makes me think OldLeftyLawyer has hit upon something with his psychological analysis.

And incidentally, by using the name "Hanoi Jane" in your poll, you've deliberately slanted it much the way the current administration slants their info or Fox News slants their polls.

You are certainly free to your opinion but I think you're in need of some serious inner reflection to figure out why you feel so much hatred for someone whose role in all this was very minor.

[BikeWriter]

183. You might not have thought it minor had it been you she attacked...

...and your Brothers and Sisters in arms.

[Dookus]

19. And thousands more were saved

by the actions of Jane Fonda and the anti-war movement.

[BikeWriter]

20. That can't be proven. N. VietNam may have..

folded had she not gone. That can't be proven, either.

[Dookus]

21. No it can't be proven

nor can it be proven that her photograph contributed to a single death of an American GI.

The point is, she was right about the war, and the anti-war movement was largely responsible for ending it.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

31. One thing is certain:

Nixon and Kissinger (and others in the US government) sent more than 55,000 Americans and countless Vietnamese to their deaths for nothing.

So, harping on Jane Fonda is simply ignoring the real culprits and giving them a pass, which is fine if you're a fan of George W. Bush.

[Dookus]

33. Indeed...

100 times more energy has been spent hating Jane Fonda than the real perpetrators of the war. The anger is so out of proportion to her role that it becomes unreasonable.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

34. In my experience,

that's what people do when they have nothing else.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

44. Nail, meet hammer! (nt)

[BikeWriter]

101. Tell her she should have attacked the men in charge!

I am not a fan of *. I am an enemy of someone who called us troops all sorts of war criminals until she finally said she was sorry in 1988. Tell HER she should have attacked the men in charge!


"In 1988, sixteen years after denouncing American soldiers as war criminals and tortured POWs as possessed of overactive imaginations, Fonda met with Vietnam veterans to apologize for her actions. It's interesting to note that this nationally-televised apology (during which she attempted to minimize her actions by characterizing them as "thoughtless and careless") came at a time when New England vets were successfully disrupting a film project she was working on."
http://www.snopes.com/military/fonda.asp

[JimmyJazz]

26. I gotta agree with you on this one.

I don't think "oops, I'm sorry" really cuts it. :hi: It's one thing to protest against war - it's another to applaud the enemy.

[Dookus]

29. But how were they "the enemy"?

they were no more our enemy than the Iraqis are.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

32. Nothing ever changes

It's kind of sad to find people still lambasting Jane Fonda by way of defending what we did in Vietnam.

And I'm sure the freepers blame the Iraqis for what they forced America to do to them.


:sarcasm:

[JimmyJazz]

39. Where do you get that I am blaming Jane Fonda for the war or that

BikeWriter is? Your broad brush strokes are inaccurate. And, again - your analogy is not accurate because she hung out with the soldiers on their weapons and applauded their efforts. Jeez - it's not like she was handing out candy to kids.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

52. Huh?

You're not reading my simple words very well.

I drew no analogy.

I have no idea what you're saying here. Sorry.

[JimmyJazz]

37. Dookus, you know I love you and I don't wanna get in a flame war with you,

but the woman posed with soldiers in uniform on their weapons....

That's not the same thing as if she had visited a civilian village. If that's all she had done, then I would agree with your analogy.

[Dookus]

40. yes

and she has said for many many years that it was a horrible mistake, she regrets it, she apologizes for the hurt it caused.

Why can't you weigh that against her POSITIVE contributions toward ending the war?

It reminds of the people who can't forgive Mohammed Ali for not going to war. It baffles me how people can hold a grudge for so long against some well-meaning people.

[JimmyJazz]

46. I understand your opinion. And, I really don't "hold a grudge"

but, I also won't try to talk a Viet Nam vet out of his feelings toward her actions since I don't have his life experiences. I posted to let him know that I think what she did sucked and I can understand how he feels. I was offering moral support for his opinion moreso than outrage.

Besides, if I'm going to hold a grudge, it will be against you because you like progmom better than me. :o

[Dookus]

86. But the problem is

most of the things you read about "Hanoi Jane" are right-wing lies along the line of the Swift Boat veterans. It's what they do - they lie all the time to destroy people who disagree with them.

Please take the time to learn a little more about what Jane Fonda really did during the war, what her feelings are about it, and how she has gone on.

Please don't believe the right-wing lies, even if you read them on DU.

[BikeWriter]

90. Dookus, I am anything but a right winger...

I will send you the urls to my Democrat and VietNam Vets forums if you wish. I am a rabid yellow dog democrat. I heard Jane Fonda call our returning POWs liars and criminals, as I heard her words while I was in VietNam.
Snopes debunked many of the lies about her, as I do on my forums, but I can still never forgive her for telling the world press our POWs were being treated well while they were being tortured to death and some of her other lies. Read her own words at Snopes:
http://www.snopes.com/military/fonda.asp

[Dookus]

92. I'm sorry

I didn't mean to imply that you were a right-winger.

But some of your arguments are right-wing. I think using the term "Hanoi Jane" alone qualifies.

[BikeWriter]

98. And I think her calling us all war criminals was traitorous.

If you think that's only a right wing argument, I'll ask you to put yourself in my place. I was drafted and ordered to go there by Congress. I felt at the time we were protecting the South VietNamese pleople. They felt so, too, at least that's what they told me.
I lost a lot of good Friends there, I no longer think we should have intervened, but that's Monday morning quarterbacking and still doesn't mean she was right in calling us troops and POWs all the names she did, and cheer-leading our enemy.

[Dookus]

100. Where did she call all soldiers

war criminals?

On Larry King yesterday, she talked about how it was working with soldiers and veterans that had GOTTEN her involved in anti-war activities.


She was a friend to soldiers. She was trying to save their lives.

[BikeWriter]

102. I heard her at the time. I'll quote Snopes again.

"She didn't go to North Vietnam to try to bring about peace or to reconcile the two warring sides or to stop American boys from being killed; she went there as an active show of support for the North Vietnamese cause. She lauded the North Vietnamese military and citizens while she denounced American soldiers as "war criminals" and urged them to stop fighting, she lobbied to cut off all American economic aid to the South Vietnamese government even after the Paris Peace Accords ended U.S. military involvement in Vietnam, and she publicly thanked the Soviets for providing assistance to the North Vietnamese. And she did all this not as a reckless youth who rashly spouted ill-considered opinions now best forgotten, but as a 34-year-old adult who should be expected to bear full responsibility for her actions."
http://www.snopes.com/military/fonda.asp

[jukes]

57. absolutely, Dookus!

we had no more business there than we presently have in Iraq.

[BikeWriter]

83. They were my enemy because they shot at me.

They were butchering my South Vietnamese friends and fellow troops.

[Dookus]

88. Perhaps

with good reason? You all weren't there to deliver flowers.

[BikeWriter]

93. I was in South VietNam, which the VC invaded!

I had many good Friends there. I treated them as equals and they took damned good care of me. Several of my VietNamese Friends there were veterans of the war. Most of them were probably killed after we left.

[jukes]

147. historic fact

"south" vietnam didn't exist until we created it, nor did "north" vietnam. a violent disagreement between the people of a united country does NOT give us the right to artificially create a sovereign nation, governed by our rightwing puppets.

very few ARVN that i knew had a deep belief in the "south" vietnamese government. most just wanted a job, & wd "didi mau" when real fighting started.

in retrospect, & understanding a bit more about the rulers we imposed on them, i don't blame them a bit.

the NVA & VC i faced were tenacious warriors fighting desperately, if not for communism (although many i interrogated were commited communists) at least for freedom from american occupation.

the VC did NOT invade south vietnam, they were guerilla fighters from the region within which they fought. NVA (North Vietnamese Army) could be said to have invaded, but it's a mere quibble because the country was unified before our interference. it was known as the french colony of Cochin China before we inserted ourselves, but had been an autonomous kingdom before the french incursion.

no doubt there were purges of persons viewed as "collaborators" after we abandoned them, just as there were purges of vichy french after WWII. my take is that the whole "us" vs "them" attitude is clouded by the rhetoric of the precursers to the neocons, and we have to look VERY closely at what is being done today, & how it's being justified, in light of the lies we were told during the viet nam conflict.

the truth is that these people see ALL of us as lesser, expendable beings to be used for their profit.

i was NOT a patriot protecting my country or the people of viet nam from communism; i was an idealistic fool, & a tool of a group of oppressive, selfserving monsters; a class that STILL EXISTS TODAY.

[BikeWriter]

149. I may have been ultra naive but...

I got along with the civilians damned well. More than once they'd tell me whether it were safe to go into town, or that a certain area was dangerous. I never had the feeling of being unwelcome among the ones I knew and who knew me.

[nguoihue]

173. The VC invaded Viet Nam?

Whoa!

[BikeWriter]

178. You're right, I should have said Chinese and North Vietnamese.

[nguoihue]

181. The North Vietnamese invaded Viet Nam - VN was their country

The Vietnamese did not divide their country. It was done by outsiders. The northerners were also Vietnamese. South Viet Nam was created by the US in violation of the Geneva Accords of 1954. A permanent divison of the country was never intended.

The CIA had a large part in selecting and installing Ngo Dinh Diem as the first president and we were told we were fighting for freedom and democracy in Viet Nam. In fact the RVN government including the corrupt generals who followed Diem after he was assasinated was in reality a military dictatorship only interested in maintaining power and accumlating personal wealth.

If the US had allowed the Geneva Accords to be acted upon as they had been agreed to and held the elections scheduled for 1956 it's likely that most of the death and destruction that befell Viet Nam, Laos, Cambodia, the US and her paid "allies" could have been avoided.

Yeah, I had friends there too. Still do. Folks who were on both sides of the fence. They have been able to set aside the past and work together to rebuild their country. Too bad many American veterans can't let go of their hatred and bitterness. I would encourage you to visit Viet Nam today. It might help you to get over it.

[BikeWriter]

184. I never was any good at forgive and forget.

I'll agree that may be wrong, but jane was certainly an adult, and she chose to ally herself with North Vietnam against helpless prisoners. I can't forgive her for attacks she made on others.

[ldf]

42. applaud the enemy? why were they the enemy?

what about the lie that the war was based on, the gulf of tonkin resolution, a resolution about a naval attack on our forces that never happened?

so we go to war on a lie, destroy a country on a lie... sound familiar?

and the backers of the current atrocity are just as adamant as the backers of the vietnam atrocity.

but we DO rant and rave for decades because one person questioned it, and, as she stated on larry king last night, was manipulated by the press that was present to participate in a ridiculous photo shot. as soon as she did it she knew it had been a bad move.

we can complain about jane but never admit that we were the bad guys.

such typical american scapegoating.

jane is a true hero. and although i'm atheist, jane may be one of the christians that walks the walk and talks the talk. i have no problem with them.

[BikeWriter]

78. Yes'm, she called us murdering war criminals...

...to the world press, while sitting on an antiaircraft gun singing "Koom ba ya" with Uncle Ho's VC. Just my opinion, of course.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

45. If she only shook hands with officials and gave flowers to children

Would that NOT help their "morale?"

And what a cute term, "Chi-Com". Those 7 characters say more than all other words in your post.

[redqueen]

66. Whoa!

Check out the second definition!

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=chicom

[BikeWriter]

73. Chi-Com was common vernacular Chinese Communist....

As VC was short for Viet-Cong. You can choose to think it derogative if you like. The bastards shot at me and I'll call them what I want to.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

75. I thoroughly encourage you to keep doing that.

Helps a lot to enlighten the listeners.

[BikeWriter]

79. Fine, whatever you say.

[redqueen]

36. Huge flamewars seem to be your specialty. n/t

[BikeWriter]

74. Thank you. I'm simply expressing my opinion. :-)

[jukes]

38. sorry, b/k, but you need to get over it

she never shot any1. i, on the other hand, shot the wrong people. i shd have shot the nazis that suckered me into a war of aggresion and imperialism that the US shd never have fought.

much like the current war. do you REALLY think we were saving the vietnamese people?

jane was a kid, her heart was in the right place, she just went over the top. as rich kids tend to do.

[BikeWriter]

85. "a 34-year-old adult who should be expected to bear full"

She didn't go to North Vietnam to try to bring about peace or to reconcile the two warring sides or to stop American boys from being killed; she went there as an active show of support for the North Vietnamese cause. She lauded the North Vietnamese military and citizens while she denounced American soldiers as "war criminals" and urged them to stop fighting, she lobbied to cut off all American economic aid to the South Vietnamese government even after the Paris Peace Accords ended U.S. military involvement in Vietnam, and she publicly thanked the Soviets for providing assistance to the North Vietnamese. And she did all this not as a reckless youth who rashly spouted ill-considered opinions now best forgotten, but as a 34-year-old adult who should be expected to bear full responsibility for her actions.
http://www.snopes.com/military/fonda.asp

[jukes]

148. that was how she was painted

by the war-mongers of the day. i no longer accept the portrayals of the people who tricked me into killing for their profit.

i'll admit error about her age, but 36 seems young when you're 56.

i DO believe that she intended to do good, even if she hurt some feelings along the way. perhaps her methods weren't sound, but her intent was. If you doubt her credentials as a liberal, look to her father, who brought us "tom joad".

if nothing else, her mistakes were far less heinous than mine. my mistakes haunt me.

[skygazer]

165. Thanks for your thoughtful posts

I'm sorry you are haunted - we cannot change our pasts, only learn from them.

Peace.

[BikeWriter]

171. If you're speaking of mistakes made in VietNam...

haunting you I know the feeling full well. I am doing my best to get over the guilt I feel for being sent there. I also feel guilty for not doing enough there, and I feel guilt for surviving when so many didn't. I don't know what mistakes you made, but it's about time you forgave yourself, as I'm trying to learn to do.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

41. I think I saw you in the movie "Back to School" with Rodney Dangerfield.

Do you teach History?

[BikeWriter]

87. No, but you may have seen me in the war news.

[Beetwasher]

13. "I Love To Watch Her Strut!"

Bob Seger wrote that song about her!

[Lex]

15. I saw her on David Letterman last night & I agree Dookus!

She was open, honest, warm and a class act all the way.

It wasn't forced or anything.

A really great interview by Letterman, too, for his part.

[redqueen]

17. She's fantastic.

I wish I'd have seen her... will watch for more appearances. Thanks for the summaries.

[lumberingbear]

22. Did I hear right?

That she had or is going to have a hip replacement???

[Dookus]

24. Yep

right after this book tour, she's getting both hips replaced. Osteoarthritis.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

64. Jane Fonda and American women

I think she and Oprah Winfrey have a lot to answer for in terms of what they did - in their incredibly public forums - to put American women under the microscope and turn them into the body-conscious, appearance- and food-obsessed group they are today.

Jane and her exercise videos. Look at them today and cringe.

That's why she's in the shape she's in. You cannot do that kind of stuff the way she admittedly did it - obsessively - without incurring serious orthopedic damage. At the same time, she was purging, so her calcium levels were dreadfully impaired.

I'm glad she's happy now, but I lament what she did. And I lament that a whole new generation of American females are picking up on her obsessions and disorders.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

58. Anybody had the chance to read what THIS was please PM me?

Yes, I'm cursed with morbid curiosity.

[terrya]

67. Isn't she returning to acting?

I thought I had heard that she's going to be in an upcoming film.

I'm not sure of the details, though.

She's a class act in my book.

[Dookus]

84. Yes

she's in a new movie starring (gack) J-Lo.

[WoodrowFan]

82. I think she was right to protest the war but

WRONG to go to North Vietnam and play leftie tourist. I can't say I'm MAD about it though, she apologized and that's that.

[Dookus]

91. She was not the only person to visit North Vietnam

she said over 300 other people had done so - politicians, veterans, priests, etc.

She has repeatedly apologized for the photo op (which was a set up) over the years. What I can't understand is the idea that her actions were unforgivable. She contributed to SAVING thousands of lives.

[BikeWriter]

95. 'for Fonda to brand men who were held captive and tortured as "liars"'

"Whether the war was right or wrong, those who risked (and gave) their lives fighting it deserve respect, and for Fonda to brand men who were held captive and tortured as "liars" and "hypocrites" (despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary) in order to defend her political views was and is unpardonable."
http://www.snopes.com/military/fonda.asp

I feel that way, too.

[Ron Green]

97. I agree. I am a disabled US Army vet from 1966-69, and my opinion of Jane

Fonda is that she has used her celebrity in some very courageous ways over the years, and that she has allowed herself to grow and learn (as we all should, but some obviously cannot.) I have moved beyond my identity as a "brother in arms," to embrace the idea of general forgiveness. I'll tell ya one thing, it's been much easier to forgive Jane Fonda than it has been to forgive Henry Kissinger and Robert McNamara.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

110. Ron_Green

You give me hope. Bless you.

[WoodrowFan]

107. I don't think she saved or cost lives

I just don't think her visit was that important. Certainly I'm not angry about it and I think the "Hanoi Jane" folks need to get a life.

[BikeWriter]

135. I will respect your opinion...

but I ask for the same respect. I had a life before 1965.

[Jesus Saves]

94. She's amazing

She's classy, tough, thoughtful, and boy does she age well!

[JimmyJazz]

96. Is this the part where I post in ATA and demand a halt to

all threads regarding Jane Fonda? :P

[BikeWriter]

99. Hee hee hee! :-)

[WoodrowFan]

134. no, we're still 279 threads short.

:P

[BikeWriter]

142. Aww shit, you're right! ;-(

[BikeWriter]

103. In Fonda's own words:

"The image of Jane Fonda, Barbarella, Henry Fonda's daughter...sitting on an enemy aircraft gun was a betrayal...It was the largest lapse of judgment that I can even imagine."
- Jane Fonda, interviewed by Leslie Stahl, on CBS 60 Minutes television April 3, 2005.

I agree with those words with all my heart. If she'd only betrayed me I could forgive her, but she didn't. She betrayed all those thousands of soldiers whose names are on the VietNam Memorial.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

109. Get a grip

She spoke her mind - as uninformed as it was - and made errors.

So, how about that Henry Kissinger and Robert McNamara and Richard Nixon and all the other men who promoted the mess in Vietnam and extended it far beyond anything it ever should have been?

It makes me wonder, these men who can't let go of what a female movie star did decades ago. There's a serious psychosexual component to this obsession that's well worth examining.

[Dookus]

111. I wonder about that, too

Yes, Fonda was wrong. She readily admits it. But people obsess over her far more than Kissinger, McNamara, Nixon, etc.

Jane Fonda was not responsible for one American death, and she contributed to saving thousands of lives. She has repeatedly made sincere apologies for her mistakes, but that means nothing.

I don't understand why a movie star gets so much more hate than the people who actually directed the war.

[BikeWriter]

119. So start a thread saying you love Kissinger, McNamara, and Nixon...

...and I'll get obsessive on it a while.

[Dookus]

120. BikeWriter

this is not about you in particular. It's about a general obsession by MANY people with Jane Fonda, their inability to forgive, and their readiness to believe things that simply aren't true because it reinforces their hatred.

I find it odd that such an old action by a then-minor celebrity should engender such outrage. The fact is, nobody died as a result of her actions, and she worked with others to save thousands - perhaps tens of thousands- of lives, both American and Vietnamese. The anger seems totally out proportion to her supposed transgression.

[BikeWriter]

123. She gave aid and comfort to our enemy...

while hundreds of us were dying each week. That's my own reason for not forgiving her. She calls it betrayal herself.

Treason
Violation of allegiance toward one's country or sovereign, especially the betrayal of one's country by waging war against it or by consciously and purposely acting to aid its enemies.
A betrayal of trust or confidence.
http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/t/t0332700.html

[Dookus]

125. Yes

I'm familiar with your position. Repeating it ad nauseum doesn't convince me that you are right.

She admits it was a mistake and has apologized repeatedly over many years. Why is it impossible to move past it? It was a symbolic act - it didn't result in a single death. Why can't people move past it?

[BikeWriter]

127. Can you prove she didn't cause the deaths of any troops?

That is an unsupported assumption on your part unless you have references. What is proven and recorded in black and white is she supported North VietNam and Communists, while repeatedly condemning U.S. troops.

'At Michigan U. in 1970 she asserted "I would think that if you understood what communism was, you would hope, you would pray on your knees that we would someday become communist." The peace proposal by the Vietcong was "the only honorable, just, possible way to achieve peace in Vietnam."'
http://teamhouse.tni.net/janebio.htm

[Dookus]

133. How could she have?

Unless you're asserting she actually manned that gun and shot down a plane.

And please, we know how you feel - there's no need to reiterate it in every post.

[BikeWriter]

137. I'll agree we disagree.

I've posted a number of her quotes, with urls, and my position has been made clear... I think. I'll attempt to stage a strategic withdrawal. That's nothing like a retreat, mind you! :)

[BikeWriter]

117. Is that an accusation I'm a chauvanist?

Psychosexual? I don't think so. The topic here is Fonda.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

118. Psychosexual doesn't mean chauvinist

But thank you for my biggest laugh of the day.

That was a riot.

Thanks.

[BikeWriter]

121. So what exactly are you insinuating?

Psychosexual...
"Of or relating to the mental and emotional aspects of sexuality."
http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/p/p0636550.html

[OldLeftieLawyer]

122. Yes, that's right

Congratulations.

[BikeWriter]

126. That still doesn't explain whether...

you think I obsess about fonda's traitorous acts because she's a woman or what. I assure you, had her husband gone to Hanoi and laughed while aiming weapons at the sky and sung war songs with the VC, while vilifying our POWs as liars and war criminals I'd still hate him too.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

129. At this point,

you're validating my theory.

Best of luck to you.

[BikeWriter]

131. You haven't proved anything...

Believe what you wish. There are feminist forums I am welcomed as an fellow activist on.

[WoodrowFan]

132. that's an interesting point

that's an interesting point, WHY her? Likewise, why did President Clinton become the RW's poster "draft dodger"? He didn't do anything a gazillion other college students didn't do between 1965 and 1972. I can't see it being that unfortunate letter where he explained why so many people of his generation disliked the military. Why did they become the scapegoats where other, more deserving, figures scape that fate?

[OldLeftieLawyer]

138. My theory

It's just an off-the-cuff observation, but the people I've encountered - all male - who continue to be obsessed with Jane Fonda and the Vietnam war are also dealing with women and power.

There's an underlying control and impotence issue, both factors inextricably linked, and, as these men get older, it seems to get worse. After all these years, some sort of resolution should have been achieved, in one form or another, but this one festers in otherwise unhealthy individuals, mostly as a diversion from the real problems.

They seem frozen in time, and that's the tragedy.

[Ron Green]

139. I think you've accurately described the issue.

My own chauvinistic, hyper-male attitudes have been painfully shed over a lifetime of study and experience, to the point where I'm outwardly not the least bit macho, but finally assured of my own masculinity.

The case of Jane Fonda is a telling one for me and many others my age, because she represents the frightening reality of a woman who is smart and in control of her agenda, while having been a major Babe to men of my generation. I think that when she went to North Vietnam many young guys saw her as having betrayed them; they had wanted to make love with her, and now she was calling them what they knew themselves to be, deep down: dupes of the military-industrial complex. The job for all of us was to realize we'd been had, and follow the leads of those who were brave (or foolhardy) enough to speak out early. Those who held tightly on to the idea that their cause was just, that the VC were really the enemy of the US, that their brothers were dying and hurting for some good reason -- those guys just kept on bashing ol' Hanoi Jane.

[BikeWriter]

140. An interesting theory, Ron.

I don't believe that is my own motivation, but I will attempt to grok it. I will admit I have had many, many revelations about politics since my naive pre-war days forty years ago.

[BikeWriter]

141. I respectfully request your permission...

to pursue your theory on other boards. It might make for some interesting polls for women and men vets here, should you'd care to investigate it.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

151. Of course............

In my life as a psychologist and lawyer, I've gone around this one frequently, so, I'm happy for you to take whatever words I put here and see if there's something of value that emerges for you or for anyone.

I wish you well on your exploration.

[BikeWriter]

153. There is another thread on jane started last night.

Someone mentioned their Aunt, a VietNam vet, despised her, too. I really believe it is a non-gender thing having to do with our protecting our own, rather than male vets attacking a woman.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

154. You feel the need to quote

that ONE woman shares your obsession?

That's very troubling - for you.

I do wish you well.

[BikeWriter]

156. ROFL! You diagnose obsession quickly.

Perhaps it is so. I prefer to think it a good survival instinct to take exception to those abetting people who are shooting at you. After all, I lived long enough to grow a long white beard while many around me haven't. I've posted a poll concerning this on one forum of mine. I'll do the same on my Vet forum and on a women activists forum.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

158. Just keep in mind

You invaded their country when they were absolutely no threat to America.

You attacked and killed them on their own ground.

They shot at you, defending themselves, as I surely would if someone invaded our country.

It's for them to forgive you - not the other way around.

You know full well why you can't let go of this, after a lifetime. Perhaps you shouldn't. Perhaps that's the price middle-aged men pay for the blind trust and raging anger of young men who believed the lies and did things for which they can never forgive themselves.

It is for them to forgive you.

[BikeWriter]

159. Again, I served in South VietNam. I had Friends there.

They liked and respected me, as I did them. Their leaders were corrupt, true. I feel there was a mutual committment between many of the South VietNamese people and some of us troops.
I asked the price of seafood at a local fish market the other day, while wearing a VietVet cap and shirt. The manager told me I got the seafood at his cost for having helped his country. I put an arm around his shoulder, and we both had tears in our eyes remembering the Republic of South VietNam.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

160. Very touching

I'm sure someday an Iraqi immigrant to America will extend the same kind of courtesy to a haunted and unhappy former soldier who invaded his country and, under false and lying command, killed so many of his countrymen and women.

[BikeWriter]

161. Are you infering I killed women in VietNam?

I have been called a baby killer before.

[BikeWriter]

162. I truly hope you'll be kinder to returning Iraqi vets.

If you ever consider counseling them, please don't.

[Dave Sund]

168. Look who's putting the blame where it doesn't belong now!

You're the type of person who gives liberals a bad name. Blaming the troops for a war they had no choice but to be in.

[BikeWriter]

170. Thanks, Dave. I've been feeling guilty...

for surviving VietNam for so many years now, I was completely missing that point. I appreciate your pointing that out.

[nguoihue]

175. Well written OldLeftie

My thoughts exactly.

[Swamp Rat]

167. That explains it.

I admire your expertise - just marvelous! :)

[BikeWriter]

166. I quoted your theory to several combat Vet buddies of mine...

They were not very impressed with it.

[Dave Reynolds]

136. Best wishes,

I hope you two will be very happy together.:hippie:

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

144. You can have her

She sold herself as paragon of fitness and didn't reveal she was bulimic till after she made a mint. She is a person of privilege who has jumped on just about every bandwagon of the last 40 years. I didn't admire her before, during or after her anti-war activities. As an actor she lacks charisma and her voice is grating. The nicest thing I can say is she certainly has staying power. When it comes to Fondas, I would rather read about Peter.

[roguevalley]

145. I find it interesting that in a "Christian" country when a person tries

and make amends that they are rejected out of hand. I remember that George Wallace spent his remaining years apologizing and reaching out to African-Americans and lots of them who had even suffered greatly reached back. I hope she has peace because she is apologizing.

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

146. This is a secular country

And I am not a Christian.

I don't care one way or another about her anti-war activities, if that's all she's apologizing for. I simply don't find anything about her life particularly admirable, worthy of emulation, or worth $27.00 to learn anything more about.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

152. I agree with you

But, you must admit that she's got great hair, no?

That "Klute" shag still haunts me ...............

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

163. LOL!

The Shag...a particularly apt style.

When it comes to 60s sex kittens, I prefer Ann-Margret...hair and all. :hi:

[BikeWriter]

150. I'm no Christian, and I learned in the war...

to be damned unforgiving of enemies.

[redqueen]

155. Is she apologizing for hiding her bulimia

while duping women into buying her fitness tapes so they could try to attain her figure?