Brave men and gender roles.

[Senior citizen]

If you think you've got the stones to be a real man, go watch the movie, "Whale Rider," and THEN come back and tell me how there is a biological basis for gender roles.

[Scout]

1. I loved that movie!

"My name is Paikeah Apiranu..."
her recital about her grandfather just tears me up every time, I end up sobbing.

So many good things in that movie. I think I will have to watch it again very soon on DVD! I've watched it with my nieces and my great niece ... smart girls, they ask questions right away about why Pai's grandpa acted as he did, why can't Pai go to the special school, etc.

[Senior citizen]

2. It really isn't much different here.

A few years ago I lived near a park, and every year I'd see the new crop of little boys being taught how to throw a baseball like a boy (they all throw like girls until they're taught different), and the new crop of little girls being taught to throw softballs like girls (some of them tend to copy what the boys do until they're corrected)--exactly as if Babe Didrikson Zacharias had never lived.

We name kids differently based on sex, refer to them differently based on sex, dress them differently based on sex, reinforce or fail to reinforce various behaviors based on sex, and then some idiots turn around and say there is a biological basis for gender roles. If there actually was, we'd have no way of knowing it. Scientists cannot determine if something is so without a control group--if they'd been in China before foot-binding was abolished, they'd have said that women's feet were a whole lot smaller than men's feet, totally ignoring the fact that women's feet were bound. We'd have to raise kids without the social conditioning of patriarchy before we could begin to find out if there is any biological basis for gender roles.

But the world "role" is a dead giveaway. A role is something you act out, not something you are. A theatrical role usually requires that a character have an appropriate name, hair style, costume, make-up, speech, and mannerisms. I can't think of any possible biological basis for names, costumes, makeup, hair styles, costumes, speech, or mannerisms.

The part of "Whale Rider" that touched me the most was when the grandfather apologized. To me, it meant that although we're raised to be total idiots, we don't have to stay that way.

[orleans]

4. i don't know this movie, but...speaking of gender roles...

i have always thought society plays a huge part in developing that. when my daughter was a baby i dressed her mostly in little play clothes and these little kid long pants so her legs wouldn't get cold, and she could crawl and not skin her knees.

when she got a little older she kept wanting to wear dresses. she lived in dresses for years! and the thing that amused me was that i never wear dresses--i'm a blue jeans girl/mom. and i would've thought that "modeling" by a parent would have trumped all other types of "modeling" by society (books, tv, outside social relationships) but no. she was very "girly".

i know they go through this gender identity thing (such as: am i a boy or a girl and what does that mean sort of thing) but i realized what a powerful influence society as a whole has on a child's development.

[Senior citizen]

6. Some girls really enjoy being girly-girls,

some enjoy being grrrls, and some are tomboys. The problem is that some boys enjoy being girlish, and can be inhumanely penalized by their society and peers for their natural feelings. As I always say, everything having to do with gender roles should be available to everyone and expected of no one.

[Withywindle]

5. Beautifully said, and so true!

Bravo!

I agree completely - there is no way we can know what biological basis for gender roles there is, if any. It is suggestive that gender roles have varied so much over different cultures and time periods, but we see even that through the lenses of our own culture. And we are such social creatures, and hence creatures of roles in a certain sense: a person without a role of any kind (if you can imagine such a thing) would be lost! But the liberal philosophy (and I use "liberal" in the proud sense: empathy, acceptance, curiosity about the world and others) is to realize that the role is never more important than the person inside it, and that individuals range across an unbelievably broad spectrum of possibilities.

And I love that movie too.

[Senior citizen]

8. Actually, a person without a role of any kind wouldn't be lost--

they'd have found their true nature. They'd probably be so happy and self-realized that they'd feel sorry for everyone else!

[Zenlitened]

9. Think of the word "tomboy." It's spoken as a compliment ...

... for a girl who is boyish.

Then try to find its equivalent, for a boy who is girlish. There is none -- they're all put-downs.

One author I came across on Salon.com years ago suggests a remedy, a word meant to be a complement to boys who identify with or behave somewhat like girls: "janegirl."

:)

[Senior citizen]

11. However well meant,

in usage, janegirl would turn out to be a put-down anyway. That's the nature of patriarchy.

An interesting sidelight is that whenever females DO excel in the male realm, such as Joan of Arc leading men in battle, they are punished for that too.

[MrScorpio]

3. When I get the chance to see that flick

I'll let you know what I think

[Senior citizen]

7. Mr. Scorpio, Sir,

I look forward to reading your opinions with great optimism. Please PM me when you post, so that I don't accidentally miss it!

[redqueen]

10. I haven't heard anything about it... now I'm dying to see it.

Thanks. :)

Agree with every single post you've made on this thread.

I love making people around me uncomfortable by asking them if they had a daughter, would they allow her to play with trucks, wear power ranger shoes, etc. Most answer yes, of course.

Then I ask if they'd allow their son to play with dolls, wear pink shoes, etc. I so love the uncomfortable excuse making that follows!

I can't wait for the day we allow boys to be who they want, and not force them to buy into the power-addicted culture we've created.

:loveya:

[Senior citizen]

12. An example of the price males pay,

happened when I lived in Afghanistan. I invited a local mullah for tea, and he said, "Thank you. Let me just go ask my father if it is alright for me to go with you."

He had no idea that to me, as an American, the idea of a grown man having to ask his father's permission to go to a tea shop was absurd.

Although most of us are aware of the severe subjugation of females in Afghanistan, like head to foot veils, purdah, limited if any education, etc., most of us are totally unaware that it is the fathers who purchase the brides for their sons, and sons who wish to ever be married (that's just about all of them), have to be totally obedient and submissive to their fathers or it simply won't happen.

In this particular case, the mullah was already married, but due to an agreement between their fathers, his wife hadn't moved in with them yet, and he had to have his father's permission each time he wished to visit his own wife!

Lucky for us, we live under a much milder form of patriarchy, but it still sucks.

[redqueen]

14. Not only does it suck...

it is one of the main reasons why society is so insane.

It seems to me to be the root cause of the power-addicted psychosis our society is caught up in.

[skygazer]

13. My favorite story from my childhood

When I started kindergarten (in 1966) on my first day, we were told to take our seats. The classroom had different colored little chairs and the teacher told us to take a seat, girls in the pink chairs and boys in the blue.

I hated pink. I wanted to sit in a blue chair. I was a shy child but I knew what I wanted so, very afraid but determined, I sat in a blue chair.

Teacher came over and told me, "No, no, Skygazer, you have to sit in a pink chair. The girls all sit in pink chairs" and she tried to take my hand and lead me to one of the dreadful pink things.

I clasped my hands around the bottom of the seat and began to cry. I was petrified but I wasn't going to move. The teacher made a few more efforts and eventually, my mother was called in.

The teacher explained the problem and my mother looked thoughtful for a moment. Then she said, "Why CAN'T she sit in the blue chair?"

After that, there was no division - children sat in whatever chair they wanted to. My parents were great - they never differentiated about sex in the slightest. My dad taught me to use tools and fix things, my brother learned how to cook and clean. I'm so grateful to have grown up that way.

[Senior citizen]

15. Great story, Skygazer.

The reason the teacher couldn't explain the biological basis of pink and blue chairs to your mother, is because it doesn't exist.

Your parents wanted their kids to have ALL the survival skills they could impart--you never know which ones you'll end up needing. In that sense, gender roles cheat kids not just out of half their possibilities, but also half the tools of life.