Nine percent of DUers who replied to this poll would kill someone's pet.

[bertha katzenengel]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=2984047&mesg_id=2984047

I find that amazing.

*as of 9:30 AM ET 4/5/05

[Cannikin]

1. Wow. How non-liberal of them.

And Jeffery Dahmer-esque

[ET Awful]

13. Which is pretty much what I said in that thread

Of course, I was attacked for saying such a thing and told I was "sick" for making the comparison.

[AngryAmish]

56. That is a new record

First mention of animal control brings up serial killers. You have learned your talking points well, grasshopper.

[ET Awful]

60. No, first mention of killing innocent animals unnecessarily brings up

serial killers, since a large number of serial killers got their start killing small animals.

[MrScorpio]

2. That freaks the shit out of me

I'm not a big fan of peticide

[LynneSin]

3. Yeah, also remember that at least 9% of DU members are lurkers...

from undesirable websites

[ScreamingMeemie]

4. No! They don't come here, do they? I thought they were too good to come

here. I thought they only made up copycat(imitating is the sincerest form of flattery) websites...;) :hi:

[LynneSin]

5. I have a feeling they do

Despite all the hard work from our moderators. I would suspect anyone who voted to kill the pet is probably not someone who voted for a democrat in the past 20 years!

[ET Awful]

14. If you read that thread Lynne, there are obviously people here that

are long time posters who think it's perfectly okay to kill someones pet.

[bertha katzenengel]

26. True as that probably is,

it's clear from some of the responses that a small number of us would kill a pet.

[redqueen]

29. I want to verify that you two aren't talking about me.

I think I made it clear that I only trap and turn in cats who seem to be feral.

[bertha katzenengel]

38. Absolutely not, redqueen.

I've read all your posts and although I don't have the answers for you, it's clear to me that you wouldn't hurt somone's pet.

The poll I posted is strictly about KNOWN PETS. I don't like thinking of ferals being destroyed, but I know that not everyone can do what I've pretty much dedicated myself to doing for the rest of my life.

:hug: redqueen

[redqueen]

40. I guess I feel defensive

because I know in my heart that whoever's feeding these feral cats probably considers them to be pets. Even though their actions end up resulting in the suffering of many cats, I can't help feeling a twinge of guilt. :(

[bertha katzenengel]

45. I don't blame you. But in my opinion, it's irresponsible to begin care of

strays/ferals by feeding them, but allow them to reproduce. Education's the key. That's one of the reasons I belong to Alley Cat Allies. http://www.alleycat.org "Alley Cat Allies is dedicated to promoting and advocating for nonlethal methods to control and reduce cat populations." They spend a lot of their resources on education.

[redqueen]

27. Yeah...

that's a more reasonable explanation.

[hlthe2b]

6. At least 15 "visitors" from the "culture of life" ilck?

:eyes:

[jonnyblitz]

7. well, some DUers think its ok for neo-nazi's to shoot mexicans

trying to come across the border in Arizona also so don't be surprised.

[redqueen]

30. Gee... no comments about this?

Sheeeeeeee-it.

[jonnyblitz]

43. it's obvious i was JUST KIDDING, Redqueen.

GEESH. :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

[ScreamingMeemie]

8. I hope they don't live next door to me...

:scared:

[Magrittes Pipe]

9. The cat's life is no more valuable than the lives of the birds.

You know, to revisit an old flamewar.

[Cannikin]

11. If humans killed cats for food, I'd side with you on that.

[Magrittes Pipe]

Some humans do.

I'm not taking a side in the flamewar, but devil's advocate is a valuable role to play.

[bertha katzenengel]

28. I love playing devil's advocate.

Just not on my pet issue.

[Magrittes Pipe]

36. Oddly enough, birds are a pet issue of mine.

No cat should be blamed for hunting birds, as that is their nature. That said, it is also the nature of all animals, including humans, to protect their homes.

I don't advocate killing cats, and I would not kill a cat myself -- unless it ENTERED my home and killed one of my pet birds, then it would very much die; just as would, say, a bear that killed a human family member.

But no. I would not kill a cat that wandered on to my property, pooped in my garden, hunted at the feeder (there are reasonable measures one can take for the protection of feeder birds), any of that stuff. I wouldn't kill any animal for simply being an animal, unless it directly attacked my family.

[SmokingJacket]

10. Some people have an irrational loathing for (fear of?) cats.

I don't get it, myself. But I know it's out there.

[LynneSin]

12. Realize it probably was lurkers that voted to kill the animals

and not true progressives

[ret5hd]

24. i agree...you were being baited...

you can even see (as you read down the thread) how they called in "reinforcements"...just purposely trying to upset you.

[Terran]

72. Lurkers with 1000+ posts?

I don't think so. Some people are just assholes, even if they vote for Democrats.

[Jersey Devil]

15. It's because cats suck the breath out of babies

A well documented fact as everyone knows.

[demnan]

16. Sadly, this doesn't surprise me in the least

and not all liberals are animal lovers. Some people just have no empathy for animals, and cats, specifically because they are independent, make a lot of people uncomfortable.

[sniffa]

18. that's humorous

i don't Like cats, because they're independent.

[Heidi]

59. Really???????

What do you dislike about cats' independent nature?

[bertha katzenengel]

39. These are very good points that I should consider more.

It takes all kinds to make the world go round. Thanks for the perspective.

[northzax]

17. well, first off, that wasn't really the question

the question specifically said 'would you trap it and take it to the pound?"

Yes, I would do that, if all other efforts to restrain the animal, outside and unleashed in violation of the law, failed. It would not be my first, or even third thing, but if there was an animal coming onto my property and say, killing birds or small rodents and leaving them on my back step? for my kids to deal with? (hypothetical, I have no back step or kids) that's a biohazard. and I had attempted many times to convince the owner of this cat's primary residence to keep it away? Yes, I would have it trapped and turned into the city. The owner has a responsibility to care for the animal and to keep the animal off of other people's property. If they cannot care for the animal, it should be made avaliable to other people through adoption at the shelter.

What is the difference between a cat coming onto my property and killing birds (I am an ornithologist) and a dog coming onto your property and killing a cat? What would your response be the second time the neighbors dog was standing on your back porch with your cat's body still twitching clamped in it's jaws?

[Magrittes Pipe]

19. Agreed.

[ET Awful]

20. The question said nothing about the pound, it said

"I don't just mean shoot it, or poison it, or otherwise cause it to die by your own hand; I also mean, will you trap it and take it to be euthanized without so much as an attempt to call its owner if known or to see if it's microchipped?"

So, that covers all ways of killing someone elses pet.

Of course, using your argument, if your bird comes on my property, it's okay for me to kill it.

[redqueen]

33. I took the 'euthanized' part to mean the pound.

That's what they do there, you know.

[ET Awful]

35. That's why people that truly care about animals will call a no-kill

shelter instead, there are LOTS of them around.

You have to ask yourself the question . . . what's the difference between killing a living thing yourself and knowingly delivering a living thing into the hands of someone else for that purpose? I'd say that morally there is no difference.

[redqueen]

37. They are ALWAYS full and won't take the cats.

Must be because this just isn't such a big problem.

:eyes:

[ET Awful]

42. I've always found a shelter that will take them, and feral cats

are a very big issue in New England.

I know 5 people who actually do the rescue, and with their connections throughout the area, a place can always be found.

[redqueen]

46. Maybe I'll start shipping them up to you, then.

;)

Seriously, though... it must be a bigger problem down here. I used to actually do the rescue as well. And even with my connections, and all the people with connections that I know... it's still impossible to find homes for these cats 9 months out of the year. It lets up around Easter and Christmas... a little.

[amazona]

61. redqueen is right

A place cannot always be found without victimizing women who have a disease. I worry about being awakened some night by a call from the jail. Too many of my friends are caught up in "rescue" and cat collecting. Sooner or later the women in this hobby are arrested and the cats destroyed. One of these women has a house that is now un-inhabitable by humans because of all the cats. So she has abandoned it to the cats and bought another house. God love her, but sooner or later, someone in authority is going to find out what is going on, and I fear for her and her freedom. Well-publicized arrests of cat collectors are made regularly in my area. They all believe that they are rescuing the cats, and technically they are, since if they brought the cats to a shelter, they would be euthanized due to the huge over-population.

Normal people already have all the cats they want or need and can safely take care of. There is no one in my parish who has never heard of a cat before and if you call her on the phone or email her a picture, she will say, wow, a cat, never heard of that before, sure, I'll give it a home. The boat is full.

Sometimes the kindest thing you can do is euthanize. I won't report my friends but by God I will not send them any more "rescues" either.

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[northzax]

47. sure, if my bird is killing your pet worms

and you have tried repeatedly to get me to keep my non-native species out of your yard. then yes.

Look, I have no desire to kill a human being, but if someone keeps coming into my back yard and killing my children, I'm gonna kill him, if that is the only reasonable way to stop him. Given that I am now on the record as saying I am willing to kill a human, a cat's not a big step.

If I have made repeated efforts, over a long period of time, to deal with the owner, then they're on their own, I'm afraid.

And you didn't answer what you would do when my dogs are feasting on your cat in the back yard. I'm at work, you can't get ahold of me, and my dog had your cat cornered and is about to clamp down on it. You can either a: kill my dog. or b: watch my dog kill your cat. your choice.

what do you do? and say you don't do anything, what do you do next week when my dog is out roaming the neighborhood again? You can't call animal control, that's a death sentence. what do you do?

[ET Awful]

48. Number one, the birds ARE NOT YOUR PETS. They are wild

animals.

That, of course, renders the rest of your question moot, as the entire argument is flawed.

And no, animal control is NOT a death sentence. Animal control will find and cite the OWNER. You did know that right?

Killing your dog isn't necessary. See, I'm not afraid of your dog. In 90% of cases, a loud noise will frighten your dog off.

Once again, the birds are WILD ANIMALS, they are not your pet, they are not an animal who spends a great deal of time in your home eating out of your hands and socializing themselves with your family. The birds don't come when you call them, they don't sit in your lap, and they don't rely on you for their well-being. They are wild animals. Period.

[northzax]

49. oh, so certain animals have greater value based on human property rights?

are animals sentinent beings with rights of their own, or property? you can't have it both ways.

and what, praytell, will Animal control do after citing the owner? oh right. give the dog a death sentence.

frankly, if your cat is your property, then I am only liable for the cash value of replacing the cat. it's a thing, not a being. and if I own a cat, I can skin it and put the skin on the wall of my house, if I want to.

Just because your cat interacts with you more (and dogs tend to interact with people more than cats, does that mean that dogs are more valuable than cats? by your logic, yes) does that mean it's inherently more valuable? is this about you or the animal? If you want to say that the entire purpose of the cat's existence is to give you and your family pleasure, while the birds in my yard give me pleasure through secondary observation, and therefore your cat is more valuable, then you are making it all about yourself.

and yes, there are birds that return to my birdfeeder for several years, they tend to return to the same place to nest and mate. Many birds, your so-called wild animals, mate for life. does your cat mate for life? No, in fact, to prevent it from mating with everything it can find, you have probably surgically prevented it from mating. Which is your 'wild animal' now? Why does your cat depend on you? because you force it to. in exchange for the pleasure it gives you, you feed it. Your cat is a whore. All pets are. Frankly, I get much more pleasure from observing an animal that is not doing a little bojangles routine to earn its keep. But people can differ, I agree.

you need to decide if your cat is a possession or a companion. and why you think your possession/companion has the right to damage the value of my property (having birds adds to the value for me) without recompense.

By the way, there was a woman around here a couple of weeks ago who was killed by rottweilers when she tried to intervene as they were killing her pet. should those animals be destroyed? and wouldn't you rather she had a gun to kill the dogs, before they killed her?

But to return to my first point. Please explain to me why exactly your cat has more value than the birds on my property. You get pleasure from the cat, I get pleasure from the birds. The only difference I can see is that your cat works for a living.

[ET Awful]

51. You've never dealt with animal control have you?

Animal control will return the dog to its owner, and cite the owner, in most cases several times. If that is ineffective the dog will be removed and put in a shelter (the policy of what happens with the dog at the shelter varies from place to place, and does not connote an instant death sentence, contrary to what you appear to believe).

Once again, as with people yesterday, you try to compare an animal capable of killing a human being (to whit, a rottweiller) to a cat. Seems like a bit of a stretch to me. How many people have been mauled and killed by a domestic cat?

You didn't raise the birds, you had no interact with the birds other than watching them and tossing some seeds out to them.

It's a bit disturbing that ANYONE would so militantly defend a bird that has no willful interaction with human beings at all, and, in fact, would fly away from you if you attempted to approach it.

[northzax]

53. yes actually, I have

and have had a dog under a death sentence for 'aggressive behaviour' that we chose not to spend the several thousand dollars to defend in court. (we spirited it out of the state instead) so there you go.

I must confess, I still don't really understand (And I have had domesticated animals most of my life) why you cannot understand that non-domesticated animals also have value. Good luck getting a Bengal Tiger to interact with you in the wild, so I guess it's ok to kill them? I don't get it. Simply because you have trained an animal, through bribery with food and shelter, to respond to your commands, your animal has a greater inherent value?

many house cats do not respond to voice commands, do they have lesser or equal value to yours?

Growing up, we had a cat that would roll over on command, it would do tricks, like a dog. does that cat have a greater value than yours, since it follows more commands?

What if you just adopted the cat from a shelter yesterday? you didn't raise it, so you have no claim? Does an indoor cat, one that interacts more with humans, have a greater value than an outdoor cat that does not interact with humans as much?

In short, why does your interaction with an animal make it's life more valuable than another one? that's the question you need to answer.

[ET Awful]

55. So now you've made the leap from domestic cats to bengal tigers

You really do jump around a lot don't you?

[northzax]

57. do you have an answer?

you said there is a difference between domesticated and wild animals. A bengal tiger is a wild animal, no? Therefore, I have more right to kill that wild animal (or have my pet kill it) than your domesticated animal. And, if your pet was attacking said wild animal on my property, I would not, under your logic, have the right to use deadly force to prevent it. is that what you're saying?

[ET Awful]

62. Your circular logic is really quite amusing.

You present impossible situations that would never occur and pretend they are comparable to real situations.

You have gone so far beyond reality with your hypothetical that it's not even worth addressing.

[northzax]

63. yes or no

a domesticated animal is always more valuable than a wild one.

if no, in what situtations is a wild animal more valuable (to you) than a domesticated one?

is that direct enough of a question?

[ET Awful]

65. Once again, you are presenting an entirely impossible hypothetical

Why should I answer an impossible hypothetical?

Now, to put it in a way that perhaps you can understand.

If a domesticated animal is taken into the domain of wild animals (i.e. the wilderness, not an urban back yard), then said domestic animal is subject to the dangers attendant to it's environment.

If a wild animal (such as a sparrow) chooses to nest in an area inhabited by humans and domesticated animals, it is subject to the dangers attendant to its environment.

Don't expect me to feel sympathy for a wild bird that is at the bottom of the food chain and nests in an area inhabited by domesticated animals.

[northzax]

66. then don't expect me to feel sympathy

for a domesticated cat that doesn't have the sense to stay at home. same difference, no?

oh, that's right, your cat has more value, for some strange reason that you refuse to articulate.

[ET Awful]

67. LOL . . . there's more of your circular illogic.

SO let's see, you condone killing peoples pets (a voluntary action not an instinctual or natural one). You compare this to an animal acting on its natural instincts, and attempt to equate the two.

See, if an animal kills another animal in the wild, that's instinct. If a cat kills a sparrow, that's instinct. If, by some freak of nature, a bald eagle swoops down and carries off a pet chihuahua, that's instinct. If a human being intentionally kills a domesticated animal, that's not instinct, that's sociopathic.

Don't bother replying, you're going on ignore along with other folks who believe that killing domestic animals is a cool thing to do.

[northzax]

68. part of domestication is the suppression of instinct

animals that fail to supress instinct are not domesticated. It's why your dog doesn't eat you. Once your dog starts to run in packs and eat live game, it's no longer a domesticated animal http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0812504321/qid=1112724310/sr=2-2/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_2/102-9582303-9841716">Jack London had a bit to say about this. So if you can't control your domesticated animal, it loses the protection of domestication.

What, to you, is the difference between a domesticated feline instinctively hunting and killing a wild bird and a domesticated dog instinctively chasing and killing a cat? After all, the dog can't understand that the cat is domesticated, right? So if you are blameless when your cat kills birds in my yard, I am equally blameless when my dog kills a cat in your yard, right?

[Zuni]

21. it is grotesque

IMG]

[Jessica]

22. I just don't understand it ...

I keep my cat indoors & only let her outside to sniff around when I can be with her. But, many of my neighbors leave their cats outside all the time. They come into my yard & although I don't necessarily agree with leaving them outside 24/7 (except when you don't have close neighbors, live on a farm, in the country ... etc.), I would never take it out on the cat. I love my neighbors' cats - I pet them & even give them some treats occaisionally. Under no circumstances could I ever harm one of them. It's just not in me.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

23. These are probably the same DUers arguing it's OK to shoot Mexicans

who try to come over the border. Real humanitarians!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3423330

[redqueen]

25. They might not have carefully read the way the poll was worded.

Or perhaps some may have voted yes just to piss on people who think the sun rises and sets on feral cats.

Disgusting.

[MissMillie]

31. What percentage of the people who DON'T respond?

Just curious.

:hi:

[bertha katzenengel]

54. Hey!

I don't need no smart alecks, little miss.... ;)

[MissMillie]

58. My momma always told me

that everyone has to be good at something, so I figure I could be a pretty good mart aleck

[WinterStorm]

32. The most disgusting part about it is...

They know the methods used to kill them. Assholes!

[BearClaws]

34. Not The Pet

While I lay awake at midnight listening to neighbors dogs bark all night long, I have contemplated doing horrible things to the owners of the dogs.
It is their fault, not the animals.
Rude MFers.
(I have a dog too, but bring it in at night)

[WinterStorm]

44. "I would never leave my dog out at night" n/t

[Catchawave]

41. It's 10% now...

Which is about the same percentage of DUers who have no ethical problems with clubbing baby seals for fashion either :::sigh:::

[imenja]

50. they'll run them over with their Hummers

same crowd.

[Bonhomme Richard]

52. I think your chains are being yanked...................

just to get a rise out of you. I doubt if there are any real DU'ers that would kill a cat.

[GiovanniC]

64. I Won't Kill Your Cat

But after reading these people say basically that if you like birds more than cats you're the same as Jeffrey Dahmer and shouldn't be left around children -- hyperbole, gotta love it -- I am putting the local Chinese and Vietnamese restaurants on speed-dial. If I see your cat in my yard, I swear I'm picking up the phone.



NOTE: I don't mean you in particular, Bonhomme, I mean "you" in the global sense.

[ET Awful]

69. No one said if you like bird more than cats you're the same as

Jeffry Dahmer. What was said is that if you condone killing someones pet, then you are exhibiting sociopathic behavior.

[GiovanniC]

70. Hyperbole Is a Two Way Street

[ET Awful]

71. Mmmmmhmmmm.

[GiovanniC]

73. Plus If Your Cat Comes In My Yard and I Kill It

I promise to eat it, and to make a little doily out of the cat fur, so it's not like it will be wasted or anything.

[ET Awful]

74. And, if you kill it, you will be prosecuted for animal cruelty.

I guarantee it.

[GiovanniC]

75. I Wouldn't Be So Sure

But I'm willing to find out. Send it over.

[GiovanniC]

76. By The Way, I Looked Up the Statutes:

Happy Day!

I can kill your cat if it becomes a pest or a threat to my personal property. I think I could make a good case of that, one way or another.

[ET Awful]

77. You do know that personal property does not include wild birds

right? And that it also does not include dirt.

Funny that someone would actually try to find legal ways to kill a domestic animal. No, I take that back, not funny, deranged is the word I'm looking for.

[northzax]

78. dirt is personal property

if I own the land, I own the dirt on it, right? I can't come into your back yard and take a bunch of dirt without your permission, so it's your property.

And I could make a very good arguement that wild birds add to the value of my property, and having dead wild birds decreases the value of my property.

[GiovanniC]

79. I Don't Really Care About Wild Birds Either

That was someone else. I just don't like your cat.

I've also heard rumors that your cat clubs baby seals.