Seriously, is our country headed for fascism?

[madison2000]

Link from another DU post comparing the revised Patriot Act to Hitler's Ermächtigungsgesetz (Enabling Act)

http://www.furnitureforthepeople.com/actpat.htm

[benburch]

1. If you don't think this is already a fascist state, you are in denial.

Mussolini would have been proud.

[ixion]

2. yep... we're not headed there... we're there

welcome to the new 'Murika of Jeebus.

[RoeBear]

5. Explain...

...please.

[benburch]

6. This will explain it, I believe.

Fourteen Defining Characteristics Of Fascism
By Dr. Lawrence Britt
Source Free Inquiry.co
5-28-3

Dr. Lawrence Britt has examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia) and several Latin American regimes. Britt found 14 defining characteristics common to each:
 
1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.
 
2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.
 
3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.
 
4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread
domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.
 
5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.
 
6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.
 
7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.
 
8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.
 
9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.
 
10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.
 
11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.
 
12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.
 
13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.
 
14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

[madison2000]

9. wow...

I still think there's a difference in degree, but I can't argue against any of those. Especially 2 3 6 8 9 and 13

[RoeBear]

17. Devil's Advocate here;

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Every administration has used these symbols.
Example: Carter administration and the yellow ribbons for the Iran hostages.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
The Repubs would say that they are giving human rights to Iraqis and at least in one sense they are. Iraqi women were allowed to vote in the recent election.

I'm no fan of the Patriot Act but it was voted in by both parties.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
I assume he is referring to the Al Queda terrorists that struck on 9/11. They weren't a perceived threat they were a real threat.
And they contiue to be as proved by Bin Laden's recent threats.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread
domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What a shock! Soldiers are 'glamorized' (I would say 'given respect') during a time that they are risking their lives.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Exclusively male-dominated? You mean like Condolezza Rice as one of the highest ranking women in any cabinet?
----------------------------------------------------------------------

6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
There are more national news sources than ever before. Remember when it used to be just ABC, NBS and CBS?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Golly!!! Why would anyone be obsessed with national security?
http://multimedia.belointeractive.com/attack/binladen/0913binladen_graphic.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
At least as many organized religions in the US opposed Bush as supported him.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Corporate power is no more protected now as it has been under Democratic admins.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Not true. As a union member I know better.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Republicans have always seen academia as a liberal haven, but haven't most all Republican politicians been college educated?
---------------------------------------------------------------------

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You mean like Scott Peterson and Michael Jackson? When did the OJ trial take place and how much time did it take up in the media?
----------------------------------------------------------------------

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Nothing new here.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lot's of suspicions of fraudulent elections, and smear campaigns are as old as elections themselves.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RoeBear]

23. Are you FREAKING calling me a

traitor for expressing opinions!!!

[benburch]

24. Nope.

Just showing you what hell lies down the path of those opinions.

It's a friendly warning.

[RoeBear]

25. There is nothing friendly about

a friendly warning.

[benburch]

26. You are free to take it that way of course.

But, like the "Spirit of Christmas Yet To Be", I intend your salvation thereby.

[uppityperson]

27. Here you devil's advocate

1. Matter of degree. Yellow flags were obnoxious, but if you didn't have a yellow flag you weren't accused of being "unpatriotic". These flags were a sign of solidarity with the hostages, not nationalistic nationalismness.

2.Patriot Act was voted in in a time of fear and without being read. They were stupid to vote something this powerful in without reading it, but they did. Look at Mr. Gonzales and Mr.bush and Guantamo for torute, incarcerations, etc examples.

3. Not to get into was it AlQaeda or not on 9/11, but did Saddam have WMDs? Are people with turbans (ie "ragheads") bad?

4. Jobs are being lost, people without insurance coverage, more poor than ever before who could use help and the money goes to invade countries for false reasons. Remember your AlQaeda comment for #3? They were hanging out in Afghanistan. Where's Osama? Does Mr.bush care?

5. Have you noticed the homophobia and anti-gay marriage stuff going on? What about the woman in WA that couldn't get divorced from her abusive husband because she was pregnant with her partner's baby until she gave birth and was able to prove the father of her baby wasn't her abusive legal husband? The State guards the family?

6. Hahahahahahaha. One word-JimmyJeff

7. again hahahahahaha. Fear is the overriding emotion right now. Fear this, fear that, buy duct tape, trust your government, even if you don't like what they're doing they are keeping you safe because there has not been another terrorist attack but beware, they're out there and getting ready to strike again....argh.

8. Praise the lord and pass the ketchup. Are you serious that you haven't seen the righwing conservative fundamentalist influence?

9. again hahahaha. Cheney and Halliburton. And Iraq. Ever heard of Enron?

10. Well, congratulations on belonging to a union. They are getting quite rare. As a former union member, I know.

11. College trained in business or law for the republicans. Free epression otherwise and in the arts is being limited, keep reading DU.

12. Patriot Act.

13. Cheney, Bush's, going along being part of the group is what pays (Condi, Powell, Gonzales, etc). It doesn't matter if you're capable of your position just so long as support the administration.

14. Election being a sham? Here, in the USA?

[RoeBear]

28. Response...

1. Matter of degree. Yellow flags were obnoxious, but if you didn't have a yellow flag you weren't accused of being "unpatriotic". These flags were a sign of solidarity with the hostages, not nationalistic nationalismness.
---------------------
I have no flag on my house car or self. No one has called me unpatriotic.
---------------------
2.Patriot Act was voted in in a time of fear and without being read. They were stupid to vote something this powerful in without reading it, but they did. Look at Mr. Gonzales and Mr.bush and Guantamo for torute, incarcerations, etc examples.
-----------------------
Yes ANY who voted for the Patriot Act without reading it were stupid,
I'm not sure I belive them though.
--------------------
3. Not to get into was it AlQaeda or not on 9/11, but did Saddam have W-MDs? Are people with turbans (ie "ragheads") bad?
-----------------------------
I would never use an offensive word to describe a person of different ethnicity than myself but, the few times that I have flown since 9/11 I have 'eyed' persons of Middle Eastern desent. How could I not?
---------------------------------------------------------------
4. Jobs are being lost, people without insurance coverage, more poor than ever before who could use help and the money goes to invade countries for false reasons. Remember your AlQaeda comment for #3? They were hanging out in Afghanistan. Where's Osama? Does Mr.bush care?
-----------------------------------------------------------------
The money wouldn't have been spent on the poor anyways.
-----------------------------------------------
5. Have you noticed the homophobia and anti-gay marriage stuff going on? What about the woman in WA that couldn't get divorced from her abusive husband because she was pregnant with her partner's baby until she gave birth and was able to prove the father of her baby wasn't her abusive legal husband? The State guards the family?
---------------------------------------------------
I don't know the WA story but Washington is a liberal state and divorce is not governed by federal law.
-------------------------------
9. again hahahaha. Cheney and Halliburton. And Iraq. Ever heard of Enron?
--------------------------------------------
And when did the Enron and Halliburton problems start? In the 90s under Clintons watch.

[uppityperson]

30. rebuttal

1. I have no flag and have been called unpatriotic.
2. It's considered ok to detain people and hold them without charging them with a crime or letting them contact an attorney.
3.You may not call people derogatory names or attacked Sihks, but it sure has happened.
4. The money spent on the military wouldn't have been spent on domestic things?
5. WA is a liberal state YET this woman could not get divorced until she gave birth because the judge was acting as "the ultimate guardian of the family institution."
9. Mr.bush was not put into power by the industrial and business aristocracy in your opinion? My opinion differs.

[RoeBear]

47. back at ya

1. I have no flag and have been called unpatriotic.

sorry to hear that happened, was it by a stranger or an aquaintance?


2. It's considered ok to detain people and hold them without charging them with a crime or letting them contact an attorney.

Is this happening to US citizens on US soil?

3.You may not call people derogatory names or attacked Sihks, but it sure has happened.

Of course it happens, it happens to me often.

4. The money spent on the military wouldn't have been spent on domestic things?

It's borrowed money. It wouldn't have been borrowed for domestic purposes.

5. WA is a liberal state YET this woman could not get divorced until she gave birth because the judge was acting as "the ultimate guardian of the family institution."

A blue state judge elected by it's citizens. It will be interesting to see if he is re-elected.

9. Mr.bush was not put into power by the industrial and business aristocracy in your opinion? My opinion differs.

I don't think I said that. But there are industrial and business concerns on both sides of the aisle. I'm sure you've seen the list of businesses that contributed to Kerry. Some of them were very large corporations.

[benburch]

29. You see he doesn't want to get it.

He apologizes for them, I think, because to admit what they are is to make him complicit by the association of being a member of this country.

Whereas I accept my shame for allowing this to happen, and fully expect that posterity will not judge me kindly for my crimes.

I was a "good German" too long, and some people will continue to be "good Germans" until this whole thing plays out fully.

[uppityperson]

34. I find it interesting to do a search

and see what other topics someone has posted on. I'm done now.

[benburch]

35. A very one-topic list, isn't it?

:shrug:

[RoeBear]

44. There IS something funny going on

I apparently am being investigated by my own. Kind of funny what with the subject being discussed.

[benburch]

50. You're being paranoid. Calm down.

If I were investigating you, I'd hardly tell you here!

I looked at your posting list after the previous poster pointed it out. Sheesh.

I do that almost every day for somebody, usually to get a sense of "where they are coming from" to better understand them.

Remember that nothing you post online is ever lost. Not only can your friends read it, but the government can too, and it does.

So, no, I am not investigating you.

OK?

[uppityperson]

52. Relax, I check out people all the time here and they me (I?).

It's common to check out what and where other people are posting, especially with the extreme discussions (extreme meaning either heated cross talk or heated liking). I check and see if the person is just pushing my buttons, if the discussion is likely to go anywhere except throwing words around, if the person is someone I want to continue interacting with or get to know better.

Most of the stuff on the internets is open to the public. Have you ever google searched your DU username? I tried it once and found I'd been quoted on that website we're not supposed to mention.

[RoeBear]

53. Well, Ben...

...what did this mean?

[benburch]

54. Your recent posting history all seems to be on gun control topics.

That's all I can observe from it.

Most people have rather more diverse posting histories...

It was rather one-topic, and I used the shrug "smily" because I couldn't make more of it than that!

You're being rather touchy...

[ashmanonar]

38. people aren't attacking you bc of your opinion.

it just sounds and looks like you don't WANT to believe that bush and his cronies might be bad. i mean, noone wants this stuff to be real: but if it is, and you ignore it, then you're just as bad as the bushbots who support him. you have to look at this as a whole; some of these items are somewhat ambiguous, that's certain: but on the whole, it's a LOT of scary shit.

case in point: #5: how MANY women are in bush's cabinet, or in the power structure in general? how many female ceos of companies are there, how many female governors are there in "republican" states, how good of leaders are the females who are in power? from all accounts, condi is one of the worst secstates we've ever had. she's no more than a bushclone rubberstamper, whereas the secstate is actually supposed to be somewhat separated from the president: yes, they report to the president, but their original purpose was to be a foreign minister of sorts, with power to make treaties, and do diplomatic duties.

[intrepid_wanderer]

41. you GORoeBear...

we will always have things to work on... but we're not that AFU.

I mean... DU hasn't been shut down by the the Ministry of Truth just yet. (not that we need to wait for that though)

[baldguy]

8. Bush is NOT Hitler

But he could be if he just applied himself!

[benburch]

12. Mass extermination is "Hard Work"

But he has Condi to help him.

[Thor_MN]

13. 2008 will tell....

I think he is neither smart enough nor ambitious enough to be a dictator. He's been a fine puppet for the evil behind the throne, but I don't think that he could take the next step, namely, halting the 2008 elections. If regain either the House or Senate in 2006, he will spend the last couple years fighting to stay out of prison.

[benburch]

14. Dream on.

The "Help America Vote" act will ensure that there will never be an honest election again.

[ashmanonar]

36. i think that's the one thing that's really different

between us and say, nazi germany.

hitler was actually a powerful and charismatic leader. MOST germans thought he was really a great leader, even though many didn't agree with him. he was really REALLY good at getting people to follow.

bush, on the other hand, is either dumb or faking it. and it seems like a combination of the two. he has a base, true: but the people he REALLY represents, the companies, are more controlling him than the other way around. his "base", all the social republicans, are just patsies and pawns in this game. and he has a great deal of people on the other side that hate him intensely.

the only thing bush really has going for him is his good-ole-boy attitude, which is more cultivated than anything else. he's pretty scary when the masks are torn off tho.







compare to:







tell me: which one looks scarier? hitler, in later years, looked more fatigued and haggard than bush's snarls...

in my opinion, to say bush is like hitler isn't accurate: bush is a lot scarier as a person than hitler let show...

[RoeBear]

19. Series of pictures don't prove much

[LostInAnomie]

3. You better believe it.

I posted something earlier today that is connected to this:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=2777389&mesg_id=2777389

[madison2000]

4. I believe we are on the way

but compared to other historical examples, we are not there yet... there is still a chance that we can change things.

[Borgnine]

7. It's a slow burn.

We're going to be there soon. It's creeping up on us so slowly and disguised by propaganda that when it's finally here, the only people who are going to be prepared are us.

[mcscajun]

10. And we'll be some of the first 'disappeared'

for our outspoken views and "unorthodox" behaviors.

[madison2000]

11. And in what way are we prepared?

[benburch]

15. Well, we see it coming.

And I have prepared my Will, for when the inevitable happens.

I did not choose "The White Rose Society" for a lark.

I fully expect to end up like they did.

[Borgnine]

16. We won't be as surprised when the time comes.

We're, at the very least, emotionally prepared.

[Rabrrrrrr]

18. It's absolutely the course we are on. THe only hope is a democratic

house in the next election, and then a democratic president in the next election.

If not, I fear we will be fully fucked.

There are so many parallels between what the Nazis/Hitler did and what the rightwing/Shrubbie McAWOL are doing, it makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up.

[madison2000]

55. But so many people don't know enough about history

making it more likely that we will repeat its errors.

[donheld]

20. Benito Mussolini said

Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power"

I think Mussolini knew a thing or two about Fascism.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[GrpCaptMandrake]

33. My Own Theory . . .

. . . of course, is that Mussolini, Hitler, et al. were rank, ham-fisted amateurs.

Real, effective fascism requires some subtlty. That's where the current crop comes in. They'e subtle enough to get the other side to question whether whether it's fascism or not. For my part, if you have to ask, it most likely IS. If you're asking, you're back on your heels, ready for the knock-out punch. If you're asking, you're probably focussing on fashion issues and old paradigms. We seem to have some notion that as long as we don't have swastikas and spooky looking black uniforms, it isn't fascist. Wrong.

http://www.truthout.org/docs_03/082103F.shtml

Oh. And by the way. In case you weren't watching, the U.S. Army just adopted the old Deutsche feldgrau for its next generation of b.d.u.

[benburch]

37. The Devil's worst deception...

has been said to be convincing mankind that he does not exist.

[madison2000]

48. I had to read that twice

convincing man that he (the devil) does not exist

[benburch]

43. An apt literary quote...

"and the last thing he learned was that death is the end of pain"

- C. M. Kornbluth "The Marching Morons"

(VERY apt, if you've read it.)

[ladeuxiemevoiture]

31. I really think things may start turning around...

Look at SS - they have been unable to push that thing through despite their self-proclaimed "mandate". Part of that is because people are telling their legislators that they don't want reform as the administration wants to enact it. Legislators are responding.

I do think it's a dark time and people need to continue fighting against it, though.

[uppityperson]

32. In Highschool 1970, we were given a list & told to choose

our social studies class was given a paper with defining characteristics of different type governing (without stating which type they belonged to)-Socialism, democracy, republic, communism, fascism, several others along this line (don't remember details 35 yrs later, shit I'm getting old) and told to pick which characteristics defined the USA. After choosing through them, they score showed most of the answers picked were in the fascism definition.

[intrepid_wanderer]

42. interesting post

Thanks uppity! made me think a bit differently (from a different schema/era sort of way) about this.

[Technowitch]

39. Headed? We're already there.

The only question is whether we can pull this sad Republic back before it's too late.

[leftofthedial]

40. it's pretty much already there

[all.of.me]

45. agreed n/t

[Discord]

46. AbsoFREAKINlutely!!!!

I would even say we are more than halfway there already

[GOPBasher]

49. Not just fascism, but theocratic fascism.

[benburch]

51. Hitler claimed to be a Theocrat, you know... nt

[edbermac]

56. Read Orwell's 1984...

We're there, dude...